Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-10-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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05:29 diotalevi What is the meaning of when( $foo || $bar )? Is it ($_ ~~ ( $foo || $bar )) or is it (($_ ~~ $foo) || ($_ ~~ $bar))?
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05:30 diotalevi I'm asking this in connection with Perl 5's port of that.
05:32 diotalevi The S06 doesn't seem to clarify.
05:32 diotalevi it was 6, right, ysth1?
05:36 diotalevi also, the synopsis is not clear about how to turn off smartmatching.
05:37 Tene "turn off smartmatching"?
05:37 diotalevi yes, evaluate the conditional in a when() expression as an ordinary boolean instead of ( $_ ~~ ... )
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05:47 ysth1 S04 Switch statements
05:48 ysth1 for instance, when ($_ > 4) ; there, the when-expression isn't to be smartmatched
05:49 ysth1 did the original p5 patch specify his source for that kind of stuff, I wonder?
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05:53 ysth1 no, it doesn't; just says "follow the Perl 6 spec as closely as seemed reasonable"
06:04 ysth1 aha; http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2005/12/msg107366.html
06:04 lambdabot Title: Re: switch - nntp.perl.org, http://tinyurl.com/yvhobt
06:04 ysth1 in p6, the condition being in { } de-smarts it
06:05 ysth1 rats
06:08 ysth1 Josh, you still listening?
06:09 ysth1 err, diotalevi aka jjore aka josh aka jbenjore
06:09 diotalevi yep
06:10 diotalevi that thing from damian is nice but what's the reference for that?
06:10 ysth1 the mouth of the damian
06:10 ysth1 { } is p5's do { } I think
06:10 ysth1 (me is highly ignorant)
06:11 ysth1 but that doesn't address what p6 does with ||/&& in a when condition
06:11 ysth1 for some reason I was thinking it did
06:11 diotalevi aaah!
06:11 diotalevi {} is just a closure.
06:11 ysth1 which is not a smartmatch operand
06:12 ysth1 I guess
06:12 diotalevi sure it is.
06:12 ysth1 then why does when { $_ > 4 } work?
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06:13 diotalevi it's just $_ ~~ sub { $_ > 4 } which itself $_ > 4
06:14 diotalevi so this also means perl 5 could possibly use sub{} as the sanity operator.
06:15 diotalevi !!0|| is pretty though.
06:16 ysth1 oh
06:17 diotalevi oh neat. Thomas Edison on wax roll or similar.
06:18 ysth1 I've heard that before
06:18 diotalevi I might have.
06:19 ysth1 I think $_ ~~ sub { $_ > 4 } is sub { $_ > 4 }->($_) *unless* $_ is a coderef; then it's $_ == sub { $_ > 4 }  ?
06:20 ysth1 eddies in the continuum
06:20 diotalevi yes, I guess.
06:21 diotalevi however since you wrote a fresh reference $_ != sub { ... } is always true when $_ is a code ref.
06:21 ysth1 yup
06:21 ysth1 less than useful
06:23 ysth1 or maybe not.  given( sub{} ) { when (sub {$_ > 4}) {} when (sub {$_ <= 4}) {} default { say "surprise!" } }
06:24 ysth1 It even works!
06:25 * ysth1 wanders off to the kitchen for a while; happy coding
06:25 diotalevi k, thanks for the thoughts.
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11:05 pugs_svnbot r18422 | fglock++ | [mp6] added util/bootstrap-perl5.sh
11:05 pugs_svnbot r18423 | fglock++ | [mp6] fixed last commit
11:05 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18423
11:05 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18423 - Pugs - Trac
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11:51 pugs_svnbot r18424 | fglock++ | [mp6] updated util/bootstrap-perl5.sh
11:51 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18424
11:51 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18424 - Pugs - Trac
11:52 riffraff hi
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11:54 moritz_ good localtime() all ;)
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11:57 lichtkind haha hi moritz
11:59 moritz_ moin lichtkind ;)
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13:59 * araujo wonders what it is the state of perl6 ~ pugs
13:59 masak araujo: it's hard to give a one-sentence summary
14:00 moritz_ araujo: not much progress lately
14:00 masak but there is a lot of activity around kp6 now
14:00 masak pugs is pretty much dormant, perhaps awaiting audreyt++ or some other brave soul
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14:02 moritz_ and TimToady's been hacking on STD.pm and metholate lately
14:03 avar yeah pugs is pretty much abandonware
14:03 masak araujo: btw, are you aware that your nick means "container for macaws" in esperanto?
14:03 moritz_ kp6: (gather { while (1) { take 2; } } )[2]
14:03 exp_evalbot r18424: OUTPUT[2␤]
14:03 moritz_ lazy_gather_take++
14:04 masak avar: I peer into pugs at times to see if my haskell-fu has increased lately in a way that makes me able to hack on it. sadly, only parts of pugs are so far accessible to me
14:05 masak moritz_: yes, lazy gather is way cool
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14:19 araujo masak, what is that?
14:19 araujo moritz_, yeah, i have seen the project a bit stopped (from the surface)
14:20 masak araujo: a macaw is a kind of parrot
14:20 masak just so happens that you can construct a composite word out of "arao" (macaw) and "ujo" (container) in esperanto. the middle "o" then disappears.
14:21 masak araujo: where are you from? (if you don't mind me asking)
14:21 araujo masak, ooh... i see
14:21 araujo guacamayos
14:21 araujo haha interesting
14:21 araujo masak, i am from .ve
14:22 araujo masak, haha, interesting, that's my surname
14:22 masak araujo: cool
14:22 araujo you learn new stuff everyday :-)
14:23 masak :)
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14:24 masak the proportion of esperanto speakers here on #perl6 is quite high
14:24 masak I know Juerd++ speaks it too
14:24 araujo well, it seems like a cool language ;-)
14:24 masak yes
14:24 masak very perl6-ish
14:25 masak or perl-ish in general, actually
14:25 * araujo wonders if this is a omen to code on parrot/pugs
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14:25 masak araujo: please do
14:26 masak there's always things to do in the pugs test suite, for example
14:26 masak moritz_: do you know how much diff there is between spec and test suite right now?
14:26 araujo masak, always found it a very interesting project .... but my TODO is usually so busy, i think i will make some space for this, i really find the perl6 project interesting
14:27 masak araujo: same here. I usually have a little time for it in the weekends
14:27 ruoso araujo looks like a brazillian or portuguese surname, isn't it?
14:27 lambdabot ruoso: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:27 araujo ruoso, yeah
14:27 araujo i think it does come from .pt
14:28 ruoso but are you from brasil?
14:28 araujo no, i am from .ve
14:28 ruoso ah... ok...
14:28 masak araujo: then you speak spanish, of course?
14:28 araujo kind of close :-)
14:28 araujo masak, si
14:29 masak araujo: okazas ke mi povas paroli sen problemo kun hispanparolantoj
14:29 masak araujo: chu vi komprenas kion mi skribas nun?
14:29 masak :)
14:29 araujo hah
14:30 masak was it comprehensible?
14:30 araujo i kind of understand last sentence
14:30 araujo that's esperanto right?
14:30 masak yes
14:30 masak the first one was: "it happens that I can speak without problem with spanish-speakers"
14:30 araujo yeah, i have heard it has similarities with spanish
14:31 masak ...and german, and russian...
14:31 araujo ah nice :-)
14:31 masak ...greek, english...
14:31 masak oh, well. </advertisement>
14:31 araujo haha
14:31 araujo masak, how old is this language?
14:32 masak 120 years this year
14:32 * araujo hopes we are not that off-topic here :-)
14:32 masak I love how we constructively go off-topic in #perl6
14:32 araujo hah
14:32 masak it's always about geeky things
14:32 masak I won't defend it, though. if anyone wants to really talk perl6 here, I'm all for it
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14:35 araujo well, i have noticed it has been quiet around here for a while
14:35 masak araujo: quieter, yes
14:35 * araujo probably should start using his commit bits
14:35 masak yes. do. :)
14:36 araujo :-)
14:36 masak araujo: is there any way I can help?
14:37 masak I'd gladly put myself under your command as some kind of assistant/secondary committer
14:37 masak as long as you elect a worthy project
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14:39 araujo masak, oh, well, i first need to get myself up-to-date
14:39 araujo then i can bother you i suppose :-)
14:39 masak araujo: sure
14:40 masak usually, I just start poking pugs around, and run a test smoke on it
14:40 masak something is bound to show up :)
14:40 araujo good
14:41 masak that's how I found t/builtins/arrays/init-in-exported-sub.t, for example
14:41 masak very strange flaw
14:43 masak araujo: anyway, be sure to bother me once you're updated
14:43 araujo haha ok masak
14:43 masak I'm here mostly on .se-daytime
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15:17 pugs_svnbot r18425 | fglock++ | [mp6] reverted r18419 - .new() broke the bootstrap
15:17 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18425
15:17 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18425 - Pugs - Trac
15:21 moritz_ fglock: do you know why it broke the bootstrap?
15:27 fglock moritz_: i'm checking
15:27 lambdabot fglock: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:28 diotalevi evalbot?
15:29 moritz_ I don't know where that went, but in the mean time we have exp_evalbot
15:29 moritz_ pugs: say "hi diotalevi"
15:29 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[hi diotalevi␤]
15:29 diotalevi thanks
15:29 moritz_ it needs some minor fixes, but all in all it works
15:30 moritz_ and it has the 'kp6:' command as well ;)
15:31 diotalevi it doesn't seem to respond to commands I send just to it, not the channel
15:31 moritz_ diotalevi: no, it doesn't handle that atm
15:32 moritz_ diotalevi: you can either hack it in or I can make it join another channel (like #perl6test)
15:32 * moritz_ is too lazy to hack it atm
15:34 diotalevi ok, well maybe more later. gotta run now
15:38 pugs_svnbot r18426 | ruoso++ | [yap6] Lists and Hashes contains Scalars, Basic int type, Single initialization method, Some work in supporting lists.
15:38 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18426
15:38 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18426 - Pugs - Trac
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15:58 Juerd masak: I don't *speak* Esperanto. I can't think of the words fast enough to make sentences while talking :)
15:58 masak Juerd: oh, I didn't know that
15:59 moritz_ Juerd: does Esperanto use non-ASCII characters?
15:59 Juerd moritz_: Normally, yes.
15:59 masak Juerd: you've always given the impression of being a fluent Eo speaker here on the channel, even though I have no trouble believing that you've never asserted that
15:59 fglock I can't find the problem with r18419
16:00 Juerd moritz_: The ĉ, ĝ, ĥ, ĵ, ŝ, ŭ aren't ASCII, but can be written as cx, gx, hx, jx, sx, ux unambiguously because Esperanto has no x.
16:00 Juerd masak: Tajpi gxin al mi ne malfacilas :)
16:00 masak I half-dislike the x method, actually
16:00 Juerd Kaj mi jes uzas la lingvon en IRC :)
16:00 moritz_ fglock: did you try if mp6 bootstrappped before your recent mp6 changes?
16:00 masak I use ch, gh, etc since a while back
16:01 moritz_ Juerd: ok, thanks
16:01 masak Juerd: kial tiam vi pensas ke vi ne kapablas paroli ghin sufiche rapide?
16:01 Juerd masak: ch and sh make sense from an English perspective.
16:01 masak yes
16:01 Juerd masak: Mi scias tion, ne nur pensas :)
16:01 avar Aankhen``: wrarr
16:02 Juerd Provi montris :)
16:02 avar Aankhen``: no work on kp6-lisp lately;/
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16:02 masak Juerd: estas kompreneble demando de alkutimigho
16:03 masak mi bezonis eble kkjn monatojn por kapabli paroli sufiche rapide
16:04 amnesiac what the...
16:04 amnesiac yo no entiendo ni madres :(
16:06 * Tene has never been interested in Esperanto, but has been active in the lojban community for quite a while.
16:06 masak Tene: cool
16:06 masak Tene: do you speak it?
16:07 Tene masak: yes.
16:07 Tene I also have a version of most of the lojban grammar in Perl 6 rules on my dead laptop with no convenient way to recover it or other copies.
16:08 fglock moritz_: re try, yes
16:11 masak Tene: as a speaker of esperanto, I confess to having a few prejudices about lojban. for example, I've heard some people claiming that it's not possible to carry on a conversation in lojban. therefore it's comforting to actually get to meet someone who actually speaks the language
16:12 Tene masak: I have voice chats with a few other lojbanists every other week or so.  It's *very* possible.
16:13 masak Tene: cool. then I don't need to worry about that prejudice any more
16:15 masak /
16:15 Tene It is true that there aren't many lojbanists that have enough experience to speak conversationally.
16:15 masak ok
16:15 masak dinner &
16:16 fglock I think I found the bug - it's a misplaced regex group
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16:23 pugs_svnbot r18427 | fglock++ | [mp6] fixed .new()
16:23 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18427
16:23 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18427 - Pugs - Trac
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16:28 pugs_svnbot r18428 | ruoso++ | [yap6] Starting the list dispatcher
16:28 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18428
16:28 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18428 - Pugs - Trac
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16:57 TimToady diotalevi> What is the meaning of when( $foo || $bar )?
16:57 TimToady actually, that just calls the when() subroutine.  :)
16:57 TimToady which probably doesn't exist
16:58 TimToady (statement_control keywords require a following whitespace)
16:59 TimToady the idea is future-proofing your foo() calls from an accidental "foo" keyword that someone might add later.
17:11 avar TimToady: re recent use.perl thingy, what was laking in ::TRE? re::engine::TRE deficiencies or..?
17:12 avar I noticed that you said you had trouble seeing what path the match took, not suprisingly:)
17:13 TimToady to use TRE for that, a pattern like /(()|())/ has to examine each capture, when TRE actually knew which one it set exactly at the point it was setting it
17:13 TimToady I mean, the wrapping code has to examine each capture
17:14 avar yes, and compare it with the pattern?
17:14 TimToady and STD tends to produce something like (()|()|()|()|()|()|()|()|()|())
17:14 TimToady I just want to know that $7 is the one that matched without looking at $6
17:14 avar kp6 handles this by putting embedded evals everywhere that keep track of the progress
17:15 TimToady I'm just gonna write my own NFA traverser in P6
17:15 avar ah, 5.10 also makes that easier:)
17:15 TimToady need it eventually anyway
17:15 TimToady and then I can make it remember whatever I want it to remember
17:16 TimToady it's not *that* hard to write a regex matcher that proceeds character by character and keeps track of sets of states
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17:18 TimToady just have to keep track of your epsilons and your follow sets
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17:18 TimToady and for typical lexer usage, there aren't going to be a lot of states to keep track of
17:19 TimToady alternatives tend to disqualify themselves faster than match positions multiply
17:19 TimToady and everything is anchored to the current position
17:20 TimToady lexers tend to be well behaved that way
17:20 TimToady you're not scanning hundreds of bytes for a fugitive pattern
17:20 fglock PCR regex does state tracking, but it's probably not in the same sense
17:21 TimToady not unless all your alternatives run in parallel over each char of input
17:21 TimToady that's what I'm aiming for
17:22 TimToady I not only have to find the longest token, but I'd like to remember where the 2nd longest, 3rd longest, etc were too
17:22 TimToady in case I need to backtrack on an "endsym" assertion or other delayed assertion
17:23 fglock it's possible to modify it  - http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Runtime/Regex.pm in 'sub alternation'
17:23 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/yvlx8k
17:23 TimToady a token is allowed to say 'foo' <?{ bar() }> 'baz' for instance
17:24 TimToady and the lexer only looks for 'foobar', and checks the assertion later
17:24 TimToady 'foobaz', rather
17:25 TimToady which we can do, assuming the regex match is "pure", and that it remembers the position to run the assertion at
17:25 TimToady but it implies that longest token matching is provisional, and might backtrack to a shorter longest token.
17:26 fglock yes, it looks doable
17:27 fglock though PCR:Regex is a bit too slow for real use
17:27 TimToady well, sure, but the whole STD thing is proof of concept for now
17:28 TimToady or disproof, as the case may be :)
17:28 TimToady biab &
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17:32 pugs_svnbot r18429 | ruoso++ | [yap6] YAY!!!! Basic list features working... list test passing...
17:32 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18429
17:32 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18429 - Pugs - Trac
17:32 ruoso fglock, t_04_list.c passes :)
17:32 ruoso which implements lazy autovivification on lists
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17:34 fglock ruoso++
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17:55 pugs_svnbot r18430 | ruoso++ | [yap6] now we have "make test"
17:55 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18430
17:55 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18430 - Pugs - Trac
18:03 fglock &
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18:44 pugs_svnbot r18431 | ruoso++ | [yap6] the scalar only holds the reference to the list while needed for lazy autovivification...
18:44 pugs_svnbot r18432 | ruoso++ | [yap6] documenting next step...
18:44 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18432
18:44 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18432 - Pugs - Trac
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20:11 moritz_ ruoso: do I have to call automake or something to compile yaph?
20:11 moritz_ ruoso: if so, you should write that into INSTALL
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21:30 pugs_svnbot r18433 | brian_d_foy++ | * Going through S02 and writing tests for all of the number
21:30 pugs_svnbot r18433 | brian_d_foy++ | format examples.
21:30 pugs_svnbot r18433 | brian_d_foy++ | * I moved the stuff testing embedded underscores from misc.t
21:30 pugs_svnbot r18433 | brian_d_foy++ | to underscores.t
21:30 pugs_svnbot r18433 | brian_d_foy++ | * the for loop in misc.t seems to have a syntax problem,
21:30 pugs_svnbot r18433 | brian_d_foy++ | complaining about a missing $_ parameter.
21:30 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18433
21:30 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18433 - Pugs - Trac
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21:59 moritz_ compiling pugs is so much better without swapping ;)
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22:04 pugs_svnbot r18434 | brian_d_foy++ | * fixe cut-n-paste error in decimal.t comment
22:04 pugs_svnbot r18434 | brian_d_foy++ | * list_of_digits.t tests things like :10[<list>]
22:04 pugs_svnbot r18434 | brian_d_foy++ | * fraction_inside_radix.t tests things like :16<abc.def>
22:04 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18434
22:04 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18434 - Pugs - Trac
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22:13 moritz_ less than 12 minutes to build the deb packages (including a 'make realclean; make') - not bad ;)
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23:23 meppl good night
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