Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-10-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:32 avar arg nothing works in kp6;/
01:45 avar oh fuck yeah!
01:50 pugs_svnbot r18446 | avar++ | [kp6-lisp] Implemented :apply on function objects, my $sub = sub { 5 + 5 }; say $sub.() now works
01:50 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18446
01:50 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18446 - Pugs - Trac
01:53 avar the closure test passes \o/
01:54 avar .map, .grep and .sort should be easy now
02:09 [particle] avar hearts kp6 -- twelve minutes from suck to rock :)
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02:20 Tene avar++
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02:44 buu What the fuck, avar did something useful?
02:50 * avar updates http://pugs.blogs.com/
02:50 lambdabot Title: Pugs
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03:33 avar Anyone interested in doing the CPAN releases for kp6?
03:33 avar make sure disttest, install works, writing a changelog, changing the version number, uploading..
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05:02 [particle] avar: blog about it, you'll get more bites
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07:01 * integral nibbles on avar
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08:16 meppl good morning
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11:07 moritz_ I just 'svn up'ped parrot, and a 'make -j 3' compiled parrot, but the "make smoke" after that died with a segfault
11:07 moritz_ I thought make -j was fixed[tm] :(
11:13 masak moritz_: what does -j do?
11:13 moritz_ masak: spawn multiple processes in parallel
11:14 masak during the make?
11:14 moritz_ masak: yes
11:14 masak that shouldn't affect the smoke at all, it seems
11:15 moritz_ masak: unless it breaks the build
11:15 masak moritz_: but why should it?
11:15 moritz_ masak: it did that previously :/
11:15 masak anyway, a make -j 3 here doesn't survive all the way through
11:15 masak it says "Invoking Parrot to generate runtime/parrot/include/config.fpmc --cross your fingers"
11:16 masak and then it dies
11:16 moritz_ masak: when not all dependencies are explicitly stated, some dependencies might be implicitly enforced wihtout the -j option
11:16 masak ah
11:20 masak ordinary make gives me the same error, btw
11:20 masak maybe I should report this somewhere?
11:21 moritz_ masak: on #parrot (irc.perl.org) preferably
11:21 moritz_ masak: ordinary 'make && make smoke' work for me
11:21 pugs_svnbot r18447 | fglock++ | [kp6] changed .str => .Str, .int => .Int
11:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18447
11:21 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18447 - Pugs - Trac
11:22 masak moritz_: will do
11:23 masak there's one other non-bot on #parrot :/
11:23 moritz_ masak: on irc.perl.org?
11:26 masak moritz_: oh. ah.
11:26 masak checking
11:26 fglock does lisp care about 'int' vs 'Int' ?
11:27 masak hm, quite a bit more users over there, yes
11:29 avar fglock: no, methods are case insensitive for now
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11:38 integral avar: you were looking for someone to do CPAN releases for kp6?
11:38 avar integral: ya, I'm lazy
11:39 pugs_svnbot r18448 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl] allow " undef but 'x' "
11:39 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18448
11:39 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18448 - Pugs - Trac
11:40 moritz_ kp6: say(undef but 'x')
11:40 exp_evalbot r18447: OUTPUT[Undef␤]
11:40 moritz_ not yet updated
11:41 fglock kp6: my $a = 0 but True; say $a,($a+2),( $a ?? "ok" !! "nok" )
11:41 exp_evalbot r18447: OUTPUT[02ok␤]
11:42 fglock kp6: say(undef but 'x')
11:42 exp_evalbot r18448: OUTPUT[x␤]
11:42 fglock k
11:42 moritz_ allright, the svn up occured ;)
11:43 moritz_ the crontab says 0-59/3 * * * *
11:43 moritz_ ;-)
11:45 masak kp6: say( (undef but True) ?? 'wai~!' :: 'no wai' )
11:45 exp_evalbot r18448: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 3, line 1 column 3:␤say( (undef but True) ?? 'wai~!' :: 'no wai' ␤   ^ HERE␤Bareword found where operator expected at - line 2, near "* Syntax error"␤        (Missing operator before error?)␤syntax error at - line 2, near "* Syntax error in "␤BEGIN not safe
11:45 exp_evalbot ..after errors--compilation aborted at - line 5.␤]
11:46 masak uhn? what did I do wrong? :/
11:46 fglock ::  =>  !!
11:46 masak fglock: ah.
11:46 masak oops.
11:46 masak kp6: say( (undef but True) ?? 'wai~!' !! 'no wai' )
11:46 exp_evalbot r18448: OUTPUT[wai~!␤]
11:46 masak wai~! :)
11:46 fglock wai!
11:47 masak in 6.0.0, I'd say there should be a grammar subrule that catches the ??:: typo and politely corrects the erring programmer
11:48 avar integral: interested? :)
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11:54 pugs_svnbot r18449 | fglock++ | [kp6] masak++  there should be a grammar subrule that catches the ??:: typo
11:54 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18449
11:54 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18449 - Pugs - Trac
11:56 fglock kp6: say( (undef but True) ?? 'wai~!' :: 'no wai' )
11:56 exp_evalbot r18449: OUTPUT[maybe you mean infix:<?? !!> at compiled/perl5/lib/KindaPerl6/Grammar.pm line 1636, <> line 1.␤]
11:57 fglock oops - ternary
12:00 pugs_svnbot r18450 | fglock++ | [kp6] fixed last commit
12:00 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18450
12:00 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18450 - Pugs - Trac
12:01 masak fglock: realizing thoughts out loud
12:02 masak (meant to say fglock++)
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12:10 masak actually, what is the p6 <-> parrot status?
12:12 integral avar: yes
12:13 * integral is just svk upping again
12:13 moritz_ masak: which one do you mean?
12:13 moritz_ masak: perl6onparrot?
12:14 moritz_ masak: or various parrot backends for mp6/kp6/pugs?
12:14 moritz_ or nqp?
12:15 masak moritz_: I'm a little interested in the relation between all the projects, if they're active in some sense, and how far they have progressed
12:16 moritz_ masak: ok, I'll try ;)
12:16 masak cool, thx
12:16 moritz_ currently the parrot folk work on the compiler tools, and implementing nqp with them
12:16 moritz_ and, afaict, nqp is pretty much finished
12:17 moritz_ and after that pmichaud (and other) will refocus on perl6onparrot
12:17 moritz_ that's the parrot side of things
12:17 masak ok
12:17 moritz_ on the perl6 side, pugs has a bit-rotten parrot backend
12:17 moritz_ no work here since long, long time ago
12:18 masak what needs to be done?
12:18 masak to reverse the bit rot, I mean
12:18 moritz_ mp6 has a parrot backend that nearly bootstraps mp6, but not quite
12:18 moritz_ masak: I don't really know... It was broken when I joine p6 development back in june 07
12:19 moritz_ kp6 doesn't have a parrot backend afaict
12:19 moritz_ at least not more than a prototype
12:20 moritz_ did I forgot any compiler?
12:21 masak seems most of the development is on kp6 right noe
12:21 masak s/noe/now/
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12:22 masak so maybe focus on a kp6 parrot backend is more warranted than a refreshed one on pugs
12:22 masak just planning my weekend here :)
12:23 moritz_ masak: I thought about a kp6 parrot backend as well, because parrot now pretty much implements all of p6 object modell
12:23 moritz_ masak: just without the syntactic sugar
12:23 masak would be cool
12:23 masak and probably reincrease pugs-parrot intercommunication
12:23 moritz_ which means that you have a performance boost _and_ less programming work
12:24 masak not bad.
12:25 moritz_ sadly now my university term has started and my time resources are limited
12:25 masak :(
12:25 masak (limited resources)--
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12:55 moritz_ masak: if you're serious about that, try to apply for a micro grant
12:55 moritz_ masak: I'm sure it'll be granted
12:55 masak moritz_: intriguing idea
12:56 masak the difference is, though, that it would be very dependent on my free time
12:56 moritz_ I just suggested that here: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=645438
12:56 lambdabot Title: Re^3: book list for perl6?
12:56 masak and applying for a microgrant would be a bit like promising to do it, no?
12:57 masak so, at least this weekend, I will make it my private little project
12:57 masak maybe after that, if it seems feasible and not too big, I'd apply for a microgrant
12:57 masak excellent idea, though. I'll remember it
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12:58 masak moritz_: btw, you "Perl 6 Micro Grant" link points wrong, it's the same as the kp6 link
12:59 moritz_ damned
12:59 moritz_ thanks for the hint
13:00 moritz_ masak: fixed
13:01 masak now works -- thx
13:01 avar integral: cool
13:06 avar integral: You could release 0.02 today if you're up for it:)
13:06 avar Aankhen``: HACK
13:06 avar :)
13:09 integral avar: sounds good.  I'm hacking on a mainframe for about another hour, then I'll look at kp6 :)
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13:30 fglock integral: commiters wanted for v6.pm and Pugs::Compiler::Rule too
13:31 fglock integral: what is your CPAN id?
13:32 integral BSMITH, fglock
13:38 fglock integral: Added BSMITH to co-maintainers of Pugs::*, v6, Inline::Parrot
13:39 avar fglock: yours is FGLOCK right?
13:41 avar ya
13:43 avar fglock, integral: gave you comaint on KindaPerl6*
13:43 fglock avar: yes
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15:44 Aankhen`` avar: I told you, I'm taking a break from programming.
15:45 moritz_ ... and still hanging around in #perl6 ;)
15:45 Aankhen`` But of course. :-)
15:45 Aankhen`` I never said I was taking a break from IRC.  Or anything else, for that matter.
15:54 avar Aankhen``: wrarr
15:54 Aankhen`` To you too!
15:55 * Aankhen`` wanders off.
15:58 fax hi guys
15:59 moritz_ hi fax ;)
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16:01 rindolf Hi fax
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16:26 pugs_svnbot r18451 | brian_d_foy++ | * I constructed two bad tests. In hexadecimal numbers written with
16:26 pugs_svnbot r18451 | brian_d_foy++ | the adverbial form, the leading 0d or 0b are hex digits, not
16:26 pugs_svnbot r18451 | brian_d_foy++ | internal radix specifiers. I've fixed that, so two more tests
16:26 pugs_svnbot r18451 | brian_d_foy++ | should pass now. :)
16:26 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18451
16:26 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18451 - Pugs - Trac
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16:38 avar fax: hia fax
16:38 avar fax: check out pugs.blogs.com :)
16:41 fax avar: Great!
16:42 moritz_ is there a "lazy" but still efficient sort algorithm, so that @list.sort.[0] can be done in O(@list.elems)?
16:42 moritz_ and full sort in O(n log n) for n = @list.elems
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16:43 fglock you mean make it return @list.min instead?
16:44 moritz_ fglock: in this case yes, but in the more general case a lazy sort
16:44 moritz_ fglock: so that the sort is only actually made if you access it, and if you don't acces half of the sorted array you don't have to sort the other half
16:45 [particle] bubble sort works well for mostly sorted data
16:45 moritz_ [particle]: yes, but has O(n²) in the general case
16:45 [particle] yep
16:46 fglock yes, it's possible - but you need some way to know when the user means to access all elements or not
16:46 [particle] might be something to switch to when some part of the list is already sorted
16:46 * moritz_ is running throug different sort algorithims in his mind
16:46 [particle] mergesort can do it in constant space
16:47 moritz_ and quicksort might be lazily implementable
16:48 moritz_ you make one pass and split your list into one half that is bigger than a reference element, and the other half is smaller
16:48 moritz_ the items in each half, that is
16:48 [particle] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_algorithm
16:48 lambdabot Title: Selection algorithm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
16:49 moritz_ so if you access only the first half of the generated list, you can safly omit processing the second half
16:49 moritz_ [particle]: looking
16:50 fax avar: glug
16:50 fax avar: I did a fix to Array.lisp
16:50 fax I can't commit until I remember my password :S
16:51 [particle] if you need, we can resend your commit bit to reset the password
16:51 fax yeah please, that would great
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16:53 moritz_ commitbit not responding to me :(
16:54 [particle] me neither :(
16:54 [particle] Juerd: ping
16:54 moritz_ or diakopter, if you are around... or obra ;)
16:54 [particle] Juerd: commitbit isn't responding... can you perform some admin magic?
16:55 * moritz_ randomly hilights feather sudoers
17:01 moritz_ there's Sort::Key::Top on CPAN
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17:12 TimToady fax: commitbit resent
17:13 fax thanks
17:13 TimToady (had to kill jifty on feather to restart it)
17:13 [particle] TimToady++
17:17 pugs_svnbot r18452 | fax++ | [kp6-lisp] fixed array index check
17:17 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18452
17:17 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18452 - Pugs - Trac
17:20 pugs_svnbot r18453 | fax++ | [kp6-lisp] (oops!) properly fixed array index check this time
17:20 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18453
17:20 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18453 - Pugs - Trac
17:34 moritz_ "Perl 6 is meant to be Lisp + CPAN, no minuses." by [dragonchild]
17:34 moritz_ nicely phrased ;)
17:37 TimToady well, there's a bit of syntax in there too...
17:38 moritz_ aye ;)
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17:40 moritz_ that quote was from http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=645520 btw
17:40 lambdabot Title: Re^3: Catalyst vs CGI::Application
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19:03 avar fax: cat t/kp6/35-undef.t | perl script/kp6 -lisp | sbcl
19:03 avar Error: The index 666 is too large.
19:04 fax I fixed that now :p
19:05 pugs_svnbot r18454 | fax++ | [kp6-lisp] Array out of bounds access returned undef now
19:05 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18454
19:05 avar fax: the problem is doing my @a; @a[666]; lookup tries to search for stuff without checking how large the array is
19:05 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18454 - Pugs - Trac
19:05 avar whee:)
19:05 fax I am sort of trying to get $counter := 1;
19:05 fax to work now
19:05 fax $counter := $other_counter; works though
19:05 avar bindings?
19:05 fax yes binding for values
19:05 avar awesome
19:06 clkao 6/win 25
19:06 avar I don't really know what that entails
19:06 fax me neither :p
19:06 fax I will probably figure it out
19:06 fax (I hope so..)
19:07 fax Do you know what /c is short for in lookup-lexical-variable/c ?
19:08 avar it returns a cell as opposed to the variable, itself. I have no idea what cells are supposed to be
19:08 fax ah ok
19:08 fax it seems like it uses cells for bindings to variables
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19:20 * avar wonders what the crap this macro soup in global.lisp is supposed to be
19:20 integral debian-- # stupid perl-doc
19:21 moritz_ integral: what's stupid about it?
19:22 integral it's not installed by default
19:22 pugs_svnbot r18455 | avar++ | [kp6-lisp] Implemented not()
19:22 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18455
19:22 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18455 - Pugs - Trac
19:34 avar integral-- # debian is always right
19:35 Tene avar-- # I like docs
19:35 moritz_ debian++ # just to compensate :)
19:36 avar Tene-- # Install perl-doc then
19:36 avar karma war!
19:36 integral it's just because perl's part of the base install.  If I'd installed it with aptitude I'd have gotten perl-doc or at least seen it.
19:37 [particle] karma--
19:37 rgs debian-- # weird @INC
19:37 integral no, it's a sensible FHS compliant and useful @INC
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19:47 fax In pugs, my $x; my $y; $x = 0; $y = 666; $y := $x; $x := 1; say "$x & $y"
19:47 fax that says "1 & 0"
19:47 fax is that right?
19:48 Tene pugs: my $x; my $y; $x = 0; $y = 666; $y := $x; $x := 1; say "$x & $y"
19:48 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1 & 0␤]
19:48 [particle] yes, that's right
19:48 Tene Yes, that's right.
19:48 [particle] y is bound to x
19:48 Tene fax: do you expect something different?
19:48 fax I expected 1 & 1
19:48 Tene pugs: my $x; my $y; $x = 0; $y = 666; $y := $x; $x = 1; say "$x & $y"
19:48 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1 & 1␤]
19:49 PerlJam fax: why?  you changed where $x was
19:49 Tene your last assignment was rebinding $x
19:49 integral when you set $x the last time, you're *binding* it, not assigning to it
19:49 fax aha!
19:49 fax ok thanks I get it now
19:49 PerlJam fax: have you ever using redirection from a unix command line?  It's the same as the difference betweeen 2>&1 >/dev/null and >/dev/null 2>&1
19:50 PerlJam order of operations is important :)
19:50 * moritz_ never quite understood why the second order doesn't work
19:51 PerlJam "doesn't work"?
19:51 moritz_ ... the way I expect it to work ;)
19:51 PerlJam they both work.  They just do something different.
19:51 rindolf What is the difference between := and = ?
19:51 moritz_ rindolf: := is binding, = is assignment
19:51 integral rindolf: := binds, = assigns.  You're changing which box the name refers to; or changing what's inside the box
19:51 moritz_ rindolf: so := is kind of aliasing
19:52 moritz_ pugs: my $a = 2; my $b := $a; $b = 3; say $a;
19:52 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[3␤]
19:52 rindolf I see.
19:52 avar it's also different in that = never copies "magic" like p5 does
19:52 avar so my $str = $anotherstr; is like my $str = "" . $anotherstr; in p5
19:52 moritz_ so you have to bind subroutines, you can't assign them, right?
19:53 avar uh, dunno
19:53 moritz_ pugs: my &a := sub { 42; }; say a();
19:53 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[42␤]
19:53 moritz_ pugs: my &a = sub { 42; }; say a();
19:53 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Can't modify constant item: VStr "MkCode {isMulti = True, subName = \"&\", subType = SubPrim, subOuterPads = [], subInnerPad = MkPad (padToList []), subPackage = , subAssoc = AIrrelevantToParsing, subParams = [], subBindings = [], subSlurpLimit = [], subReturns = (mkType \"Any\"),
19:53 exp_evalbot ..subLValue = False, subBody = Prim ([Pugs.AST.Internals.Val] -...]
19:54 avar pugs: my $s = sub { 42 }; say $s
19:54 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<SubRoutine(<anon>)>␤]
19:54 avar pugs: my $s = sub { 42 }; say $s ~ ""
19:54 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<SubRoutine(<anon>)>␤]
19:54 avar pugs: my $s := sub { 42 }; say $s ~ ""
19:54 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<SubRoutine(<anon>)>␤]
19:54 avar pugs: my $s := sub { 42 }; say $s
19:54 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<SubRoutine(<anon>)>␤]
19:54 avar hrm
19:54 moritz_ pugs: my $s = sub { 42 }; say $s();
19:54 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[42␤]
19:55 avar isn't $s() $s.() now?
19:57 [particle] it desugars to that
20:00 avar fax: I'm killing coerce.lisp :)
20:00 fax ok
20:01 fax pugs: my $x; my $y; $x = 0; $y = 666; $y := $x; $x := 3; say "$x & $y"
20:01 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[3 & 0␤]
20:01 fax I just got that to work in kp6-lisp
20:01 fax (it was saying 3 & 3 before)
20:01 avar neat
20:01 avar how about sub binding and whatnot?
20:01 fax I've not look at that
20:02 fax are there some more examples of using bindings?
20:02 avar just the tests in t/kp6 I guess
20:03 avar t/kp6/05-bind.t passes for you?
20:03 fax yes
20:03 avar 15-rebind.t ?
20:03 fax yes
20:04 avar awesome:)
20:04 fax well I'll commit then?
20:04 avar sure!
20:05 avar it compiles, ship it
20:06 fax haha
20:13 pugs_svnbot r18456 | fax++ | [kp6-lisp] starting to bind constant values
20:13 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18456
20:13 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18456 - Pugs - Trac
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20:16 pugs_svnbot r18457 | avar++ | Why doesn't $(echo 'say ((0).true).Str' | perl script/kp6 -lisp) produce an interpreter for :true? Find out later, hack around it in the meantime
20:16 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18457
20:17 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18457 - Pugs - Trac
20:20 pugs_svnbot r18458 | avar++ | [kp6-lisp] slot-value not kp6-value
20:20 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18458
20:20 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18458 - Pugs - Trac
20:23 pugs_svnbot r18459 | avar++ | Use .Str and .Num in GLOBAL.lisp to string and numify stuff. This breaks a lot of things probably
20:23 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18459
20:23 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18459 - Pugs - Trac
20:32 pugs_svnbot r18460 | avar++ | generated from 18456 by fax
20:32 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18460
20:32 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18460 - Pugs - Trac
20:32 fax oh I'm mean to commit that :S
20:32 fax I especially removed it from the list of files to commit..
20:32 fax I'll remember next time
20:33 avar don't sweat it
20:37 avar down to 24 failing tests from 32 yesterday:)
20:37 fax cool :D
20:38 avar some regressions due to my last commit though. I'll fix those
20:41 pugs_svnbot r18461 | avar++ | [kp6-lisp] $Int.Str implemented
20:41 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18461
20:41 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18461 - Pugs - Trac
20:41 avar 23 now at least:)
20:43 avar *22
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20:56 avar hrm, 32 actually, I probably didn't compile them all
21:09 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
21:13 avar fax: trying to get $sub.($param) working
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21:38 pugs_svnbot r18462 | fglock++ | [kp6] pod ends in =end
21:38 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18462
21:38 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18462 - Pugs - Trac
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23:12 ludan hi
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23:17 avar ludan: hi
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23:55 pugs_svnbot r18463 | avar++ | [kp6-lisp] .Int implementation for Str
23:55 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18463
23:55 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18463 - Pugs - Trac
23:58 pugs_svnbot r18464 | avar++ | [kp6-lisp] :Num not :num, not that it matters. But it feels sooo much better
23:58 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18464
23:58 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18464 - Pugs - Trac

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