Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-10-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:06 * avar kicks lambdabot
00:07 * fax pokes lambdabots eyes
00:07 lambdabot fax: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
00:07 fax ah cool
00:07 fax hows it going?
00:07 avar well:)
00:11 avar fax: testing is better now, see pugs.blogs.com
00:12 fax "KindaPerl6 now runs on sbcl, clisp and ecl" - Wow!
00:13 fax cool
00:16 avar fax: want to hack ?:)
00:16 fax I want to try and get kp6-Array :map to work
00:17 avar Yes, I was going to mention that
00:17 fax what about it?
00:17 fax I also must install paredit soon
00:17 avar for that to work arguments to :apply subs need to work, I was trying to hack that in without success yesterday
00:17 fax alright
00:17 avar my $sub = sub { 5 + 5 }; say $sub.() works
00:18 avar my $sub = sub { 5 + 5 }; say $sub.(5) doesn't
00:18 avar the relevant stuff is :apply in Code.lisp
00:18 Tene kp6: my $sub = sub { 5 + 5 }; say $sub.();
00:18 exp_evalbot r18484: OUTPUT[10␤]
00:19 avar I was trying to add the argument list equivalent to say  (5) to it
00:19 avar uh, say(5)
00:19 avar (lag)
00:19 avar if you can get that working with positional and named parameters then :sort, :grep, and everything that takes a sub can be implemented
00:20 fax ok cool, I'm taking a look at it
00:20 avar :)
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00:23 fax hmm
00:23 fax What is going on in Signature.lisp :p
00:24 avar I have no idea what Aankhen was smoking
00:24 fax hehe
00:25 avar You might want to look at -perl5 | perltidy or -ast | perltidy instead, that implementation  might broken
00:25 avar it was written before we had MOP
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01:41 fax hey avar,
01:41 fax I might have got 'my $sub = sub { 5 + 5 }; say $sub.(5)' to work (assuming I didn't break something else)
01:42 fax 'my $sub = sub { @_[0] + 5 }; say $sub.(5)' doesn't though (because "Variable (@ . _) does not exist")
01:43 fax (is that @_ doesn't exist expected?)
01:50 [particle] pugs: my $sub = sub { @_[0] + 5 }; say $sub.(5);
01:50 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[10␤]
01:50 [particle] hrmm... i'm not sure that @_ exists anymore, though.
01:51 [particle] from S06:
01:51 [particle] =head2 Perl5ish subroutine declarations
01:51 [particle] You can declare a sub without parameter list, as in Perl 5:
01:51 [particle] sub foo {...}
01:51 [particle] Arguments implicitly come in via the C<@_> array, but they are C<readonly>
01:51 [particle] aliases to actual arguments:
01:51 [particle] sub say { print qq{"@_[]"\n}; }   # args appear in @_
01:52 [particle] so, the spec expects @_ to exist. kp6 may be missing it
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01:53 fax ok thanks
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02:02 pugs_svnbot r18485 | fax++ | [kp6-lisp] Getting sub calls to ignore positional parameters once each has been set
02:02 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18485
02:02 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18485 - Pugs - Trac
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02:31 avar fax: @_ should work but looks like it's broken under -lisp
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02:36 fax ok
02:37 fax I think I got mapping to work now but without $_ the test 44-map.t still fails
02:38 fax echo 'my @x; @x[0]=1; @x[1]=6; @x[3]=7; @x.map(sub {say "x"})' | script/kp6 -lisp | lisp
02:38 buubot fax: 'my @x; @x[0]=1; @x[1]=6; @x[3]=7; @x.map(sub {say "x"}
02:38 fax that just prints x four times
02:38 fax and returns Bool::True Bool::True Bool::True Bool::True
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02:44 pugs_svnbot r18486 | fax++ | [kp6-lisp] Starting to get Array.lisp :map to work
02:44 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18486
02:44 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18486 - Pugs - Trac
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02:46 avar $ echo 'my sub x { @_[0]; }; say x("hello")' | perl script/kp6 | perl -I compiled/perl5/lib/
02:46 avar hello
02:46 avar the lisp backend just isn't emitting the right stuff for @_[0]
02:53 fax avar
02:53 fax When EmitLisp outputs a sub like sub { ... }
02:53 fax the signature is (make-instance 'kp6-signature :positional (list))
02:55 fax I think it needs to be a slurpy array instead? :|
03:01 avar maybe. I'm not familiar with that part
03:01 fax ok I'll see what happens
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03:35 pugs_svnbot r18487 | avar++ | Used a function from cl-port for what compat/ did, add future compat stuff in compat.lisp
03:35 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18487
03:35 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18487 - Pugs - Trac
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03:43 avar cat src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Lisp/Runtime.lisp | perl -0777 -lne 'my (@lisp) = $_ =~ /"(\w+)"/g; for my $file (@lisp) { open my $fh, "<", "src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Lisp/$file.lisp" or die $!; print while <$fh> }' > pre-out.lisp
03:44 avar echo 'say "foo"' | perl script/kp6 -lisp | grep in-pack -A500 > out-post.lisp
03:44 avar cat pre-out.lisp out-post.lisp > out.lisp
03:44 avar clisp -q -q out.lisp
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03:50 avar fax: doesn't work under ecl, but I plan on using something like that to spit out everything you need for the p6 program in one .lisp file, which can then be compiled
03:52 * allbery_b is clearly out of the loop, he parsed ecl as emitter-coupled logic initially
03:53 avar we can make small (50k for hello world) executables with ecl
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04:35 fax avar: I just got "cat t/kp6/44-map.t | sed -e 's/$_/@_[0]/' | script/kp6 -lisp | lisp" to work!
04:37 fax I'm not sure about what $_ and @_ should be in sub though (sub { ... })
04:37 fax is it simply that $_ is @_[0]?
04:38 TimToady in that, @_ would be the args and $_ would be undefined
04:39 fax hmm
04:40 TimToady bare blocks it's the other way, $_ is the default arg and @_ is not there
04:40 fax ah ok, so without the sub it's a bare block
04:40 TimToady but there is no situation in which $_ is aliased to @_[0] unless you do it explicitly
04:41 TimToady p6 makes a big deal about whether code is declared with an official word like "sub" or not
04:41 TimToady for instance, "return" pays attention to that
04:42 TimToady the official subs/methods/rules are all of type Routine
04:42 TimToady otherwise they're of type Block
04:42 TimToady (or some derivative, in either case)
04:43 fax alright cool
04:43 TimToady and basically, you only ever get @_ if you have a Routine with no explicit sig
04:44 fax Does that include sub () { ... } ?
04:44 TimToady no, that's explicitly empty
04:44 TimToady and it might not apply to methods, since they always have at least one arg
04:45 TimToady not sure we actually decided that one way or the other
04:45 TimToady I wonder what pugs does...
04:47 TimToady looks like pugs allows @_ for methods too.  seems okay to me
04:48 fax hmm in KindaPerl6 the ast for sub () { @_ } and sub { @_ } is the same
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04:49 TimToady I guess that's one way in which it's "kinda"
04:50 fax hehe
04:53 pugs_svnbot r18488 | fax++ | [kp6-lisp] Basic array mapping working now.
04:53 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18488
04:53 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18488 - Pugs - Trac
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05:42 pugs_svnbot r18489 | fax++ | [kp6-lisp] Added :join to Array.lisp, now 27-array.t succeeds
05:42 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18489
05:42 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18489 - Pugs - Trac
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09:33 meppl good morning
09:33 moritz_ good morning meppl
09:33 meppl good morning moritz
09:33 moritz_ meppl: are you in GMT+1 time zone as well?
09:33 meppl yes
09:35 masak morning meppl, moritz_
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09:35 moritz_ masak.greet()
09:36 masak [meppl, moritz_]<<.greet()
09:37 moritz_ masak: I'd expect <...><<.greet() ;-)
09:37 moritz_ looks a bit like ASCII art
09:37 masak moritz_: well, you're objects, not strings
09:37 moritz_ masak: good point
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14:23 * avar pets integral
14:25 avar kp6 -Bperl5-mp6 -Bcl-ecl -Bcl-sbcl
14:25 avar kp6 -Ccl-ecl -o program.exe -e 'say "hello world"'
14:25 * avar brainstorms a cli interface to kp6
14:26 Aankhen`` Heh.
14:26 avar fax, integral: I'd like to get ecl compilation working on a stand-alone program and ship it on CPAN
14:26 integral Yep.  I've been looking at the changelog situation
14:26 avar that's not really important:)
14:26 integral It hasn't has much love for several months and there's been 1000+ changes
14:27 avar hehey, yeah:)
14:27 avar something vague will do I guess:)
14:27 * integral was hoping to have a entry saying "OMG! We compile to LISP!1!"
14:27 integral is ecl package for debian?
14:27 avar docs on how people should use it and getting cpan -f -i kp6 working properly would be neat
14:27 avar yeah,
14:27 avar I've been compiling to ~50K stand-alone executables via the lisp backend with it
14:28 avar (unlike the 30MB sbcl ones)
14:28 Aankhen`` But SBCL is so awesome. :-)
14:28 avar 03:43:54 < avar> cat src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Lisp/Runtime.lisp | perl -0777 -lne 'my (@lisp) = $_ =~ /"(\w+)"/g; for my $file
14:28 avar (@lisp) { open my $fh, "<", "src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Lisp/$file.lisp" or die $!; print while <$fh> }' >
14:28 avar pre-out.lisp
14:28 avar 03:44:29 < avar> echo 'say "foo"' | perl script/kp6 -lisp | grep in-pack -A500 > out-post.lisp
14:28 avar 03:44:37 < avar> cat pre-out.lisp out-post.lisp > out.lisp
14:29 avar 03:44:41 < avar> clisp -q -q out.lisp
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14:29 avar Aankhen``: It makes 30MB executables
14:29 Aankhen`` Pshaw, what's 30 MB in this age of 1 TB hard disks?
14:29 avar Aankhen``: I nuked your lame portability thing:)
14:29 Aankhen`` compat/, you mean?
14:29 Aankhen`` Why?
14:30 avar it's now in compat.lisp :)
14:30 avar also using cl-compat stuff
14:30 Aankhen`` Ah.
14:31 Aankhen`` Makes sense.
14:31 Aankhen`` I was reinventing every wheel since I figured we needed minimal dependencies for the CL side.
14:31 Aankhen`` But I suppose that was a silly idea.
14:32 avar I just copy-pasted the quit function from cl-compat:)
14:32 avar but mostly i wanted to make the ^^ work
14:32 Aankhen`` I see.
14:32 Aankhen`` ^^?
14:32 avar to create single lisp files
14:32 Aankhen`` The above?
14:32 avar yes
14:32 Aankhen`` Ah.
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14:35 gbacon anyone awake?
14:35 integral Yes?
14:37 masak he left.
14:38 allbery_b (people who expect instant responses or they leave)--
14:41 masak allbery_b: would have worked in the heyday of #perl6
14:41 masak nowadays not as many eyes in here
14:43 [particle] we're all older, and our fingers are slower
14:43 * Aankhen`` giggles more slowly now.
14:43 masak but our minds are alive and ever young
14:46 fax :S
14:46 fax I'm confused by kp6-with-pad-functions..
14:47 Aankhen`` fax: What's the problem?
14:47 fax I think I tinkered with it when the problem was elsewhere, not sure
14:47 Aankhen`` That sucks.
14:47 fax if I change (kp6-lookup ,pad name) in the flet for lookup-lexical-variable, to (kp6-cell-value (kp6-lookup ,pad name))
14:47 fax t/kp6/27-array.t works
14:48 Aankhen`` L-L-V ought to be retrieving the cell value anyway… hmm…
14:49 Aankhen`` L-L-V ought to have that KP6-CELL-VALUE bit in there.
14:49 Aankhen`` L-L-V/C, on the other hand, should not.
14:52 avar fax: arguments work now or..?
14:53 avar ah no :join is a regular method
14:54 fax right now, this works: cat t/kp6/27-array.t | script/kp6 -lisp | lisp
14:54 pugs_svnbot r18490 | fax++ | [kp6-lisp] Current state of kp6-pad
14:54 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18490
14:54 fax which includes, @array2.map(sub ($elem) {say "ok "~$elem});
14:54 fax but there is (make-kp6-cell (kp6-lookup ,pad name)) in lookup-lexical-variable/c which it seems is wrong
14:55 Aankhen`` Why does it seem wrong?
14:55 fax I thought you just said it was
14:55 fax ah ok
14:56 Aankhen`` Actually, I'm not sure what's going on any more.
14:56 Aankhen`` L-L-V/C is supposed to return a cell.
14:56 Aankhen`` L-L-V is supposed to return the value of the cell.
14:56 fax ah, that's great!
14:56 Aankhen`` L-L-V/C is used for binding, L-L-V for assignment, basically.
14:56 fax yeah
14:57 Aankhen`` And SET-L-V & S-L-V/C have the same relationship, obviously.
14:57 fax ok both the bind tests are working too
14:57 * Aankhen`` wanders off.
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15:12 avar fax: arguments work?
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15:15 avar fax: in array.lisp don't use kp6-value, use (kp6-distpach (kp6-dispatch invocant interpreter :str) interpreter :cl-landish)
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15:31 fax in e.g. sub foo ($a,$b) {$a ~ " " ~ $b};
15:32 fax It's actually applying infix:<~> to (make-instance 'kp6-positional-parameter :value (lookup-lexical-variable/c ...
15:34 fax seems like it should get the kp6-cell-value
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15:49 avar fax: no I mean as $sub.()
15:51 fax somehow that works
15:51 fax that odd that the other type of call doesn't work
15:51 fax echo '$foo = sub ($a,$b) { $a ~ " " ~ $b}; say $foo.("x", "y")' | script/kp6 -lisp | lisp
15:51 buubot fax: '$foo = sub ($a,$b
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16:02 fax buubot: thanks...
16:02 PerlJam \e
16:02 PerlJam oops
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16:20 avar fax: awsum
16:21 fax :S
16:21 fax I can't figure out [yet] why named subs aren't working though
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16:21 avar param lists on named subs don't work?
16:21 fax well, sub foo ($a,$b) { $a }; works
16:21 fax but sub foo ($a,$b) { $a ~ " " ~ $b}; doesn't
16:21 fax the thing is that $a is the cell with something in it, instead of the actual object
16:22 avar (typep and (cell-value) or whatever it was?
16:23 fax I think the solution might be to have user defined named subs pass a keyword to kp6-make-sub saying that it needs to rebind the parameters to their cell values
16:23 fax not sure yet though..
16:23 avar $ echo 'my @a; @a[0] = "x"; @a[1] = "y"; say @a.join(":")' | perl script/run_kp6_mp6_lisp_clisp.pl
16:23 avar x:y
16:25 clkao mass customization production
16:25 clkao oops mischan
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16:38 avar $ perl script/kp6 -h
16:38 avar Usage: kp6 [switches] [--] [programfile] [arguments]
16:38 avar -e program      one line of program (several -e's allowed, omit programfile)
16:38 avar -c              parse the file or -e, but do not run it
16:38 avar -Bbackend       execute using the compiler backend
16:38 avar -Cbackend       compile using the compiler backend
16:38 avar (valid backends are: ast, perl5, cl (add -sbcl, -clisp, -ecl under -B)
16:38 avar -Mmodule        execute 'use module' before running the program
16:38 avar -Ipath          add path to module search paths in @*INC
16:38 avar -h or --help    give this message
16:38 avar now to code things to match that:)
16:38 avar kp6 -Ccl-ecl -e 'say "hello" ~ "world"'
16:39 avar kp6 -Ccl-ecl -o myecl -e 'say "hello" ~ "world"'
16:39 avar ./myecl
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16:44 avar fax, Aankhen``: rfc on that UI for kp6?
16:45 fax seems great
16:47 [particle] avar: pgc uses --target=[parse,past,post,pir]
16:47 [particle] perhaps you could have something similar, as it greatly aids debugging
16:48 avar it would be the same thing only -C :)
16:49 avar do you mean --target or --parse ?
16:49 avar I also have to stickin the visitor sequence there somewhere
16:49 Aankhen`` Seems okay to me.
16:51 [particle] --target= controls what stage of transformation is emitted
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18:22 pugs_svnbot r18491 | avar++ | [kp6-lisp] examples/hello.lisp has been deleted
18:22 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18491
18:22 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18491 - Pugs - Trac
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20:36 dduncan @seen avar
20:36 lambdabot avar is in #perl6. I last heard avar speak 3h 47m 22s ago.
20:40 avar dduncan: boo
20:41 dduncan hello, I was just getting around to trying to test bleadperl on my Leopard seed
20:41 dduncan but I first browsed the address you gave me using ftp and the folder didn't seem to be thee...
20:42 dduncan ftp.linux.activestate.com/perl-current/
20:43 TJCRI joined #perl6
20:43 dduncan that said, I then tried: rsync -auvz rsync://ftp.linux.activestate.com/perl-current/ ...
20:43 dduncan rather than connecting with ftp, and something seemed to happen
20:44 dduncan so I guess 'ftp' in the domain name doesn't mean visible using ftp
20:45 dduncan anyway, I seem to have blead now ... will keep people informed ...
20:47 avar ok
20:49 dduncan that said, my Leopard seed is almost 2 months old, so if blead has errors on it, it may not be worth trying to fix them since more recent seeds exist that I don't yet have ... and the final Leopard is out in a week
20:49 weinig_ joined #perl6
20:50 dduncan on the other hand, if it has no errors, that would be helpful to know
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21:57 luke-jr is it just me, or are there two seperate Perl6s?
21:57 luke-jr Parrot vs Pugs
21:59 Tene luke-jr: there's also kp6
21:59 luke-jr O.o
21:59 luke-jr kp6?
22:00 Tene There are several implementations being built.
22:00 luke-jr why?
22:00 Tene "Perl 6" will be anything that can pass the Perl 6 test suite, basically.  There will be multiple implementations.
22:01 Tene Because nobody yet knows the absolute best way to build it, so different people are trying different things.
22:01 PerlJam not to mention that they are all learning from each other
22:01 Tene They're implementing different parts, trying out different ideas.
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22:01 Tene The parrot version will be "official", as I recall.
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22:02 rindolf Hi Tene
22:02 rindolf Hi all.
22:02 Tene hi rindolf
22:02 rindolf Tene: what's up?
22:03 Tene rindolf: not much.  hanging out at work and considering getting some things done.
22:03 Tene Looking at a couple of RT tickets for parrot.
22:03 rindolf Tene: getting things done is a good idea.
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22:04 Tene rindolf: Yep.  I've been working on their new website all week.  Taking a break from teaching for a couple of weeks.
22:07 Tene rindolf: what's up with you?
22:07 rindolf Tene: I'm fine.
22:07 rindolf Tene: received an ad offer for my home site.
22:08 rindolf Tene: now I need to edit the horrid HTML on the ads that were sent to me.
22:08 Tene Heh.
22:08 rindolf Tene: and we'll hold a collective hacking session for Archive-Zip on the next Tel Aviv Linux club meeting.
22:10 luke-jr wouldn't it make sense to finish one implmentation first?
22:11 avar $ perl script/kp6 -Bperl5 t/kp6/01-tap.t
22:11 avar 1..2
22:11 avar ok 1
22:11 avar ok 2
22:11 Tene luke-jr: different people are working on different parts of different implementations.
22:11 * avar working on kp6 UI
22:11 fax :D
22:11 Tene Parrot is working on making a good backend.
22:11 Tene Pugs was working on getting an implementation of the grammar up and usable as fast as possible, so that people could use it Right Now.
22:12 Tene And that had a lot of benefits in finding out what actually using Perl 6 is like, and resulted in a lot of very good improvements to the specs.
22:12 PerlJam luke-jr: No.  It's the different interactions between the implementations (because they are focused on different aspects) that has enriched the language design (and, in turn, the implementations)
22:30 dvorak joined #perl6
22:30 [particle] so i guess perl 6 development is a bit like wonder bread... enriched.
22:31 kst_ joined #perl6
22:32 Tene Heh.
22:36 avar $ perl script/kp6 -Bperl5 -e 'say "hello"'
22:36 avar hello
22:36 avar sh-3.1$
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23:13 dvorak joined #perl6
23:27 weinig joined #perl6
23:58 Lunchy joined #perl6

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