Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-11-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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12:39 [1]jaffa Hi
12:39 [1]jaffa how is parrot going?
12:54 moritz_ [1]jaffa: quite well, you can expect the 0.5 release this month
12:56 [1]jaffa can it generate executables?
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12:57 [1]jaffa when is it going to be finished?
12:57 moritz_ no, it's a virtual machine, not a compiler
12:57 moritz_ and there is no release date - it's released when it's done ;)
12:58 moritz_ but the folks in #parrot on irc.perl.org can tell you more about it
12:59 [1]jaffa that channel is not very active
13:00 moritz_ oh, it is - are you sure you were on irc.perl.org?
13:00 moritz_ currently 69 nicks in there
13:01 [1]jaffa no, I was not on it.
13:01 [1]jaffa so do you use Perl 6?
13:01 moritz_ a bit, yes
13:01 moritz_ and I try to hack on kp6 from time to time
13:01 [1]jaffa kp6?
13:02 moritz_ KindaPerl6, a perl 6 compiler written in Perl 6
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13:04 [1]jaffa is it complete?
13:04 moritz_ no
13:04 moritz_ that's the 'Kinda' part in the name :)
13:04 [1]jaffa is the definition of Perl 6 complete?
13:04 moritz_ not yet either
13:05 moritz_ large parts of the language are specced
13:05 moritz_ but for example concurrency is still missing
13:05 moritz_ http://perlcabal.org/syn/
13:05 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
13:06 [1]jaffa what is the backend of Perl 6 compiler?
13:08 moritz_ there's none yet
13:08 moritz_ and every compiler/interpreter that passes the test suite will be "official perl 6"
13:09 moritz_ the test suite is in the pugs svn repository, and is about half way done
13:09 [1]jaffa is there a competition?
13:09 moritz_ yes
13:09 moritz_ or no ;)
13:09 moritz_ well, there are different approaches
13:09 moritz_ and hopefully they'll meet in the middle somewhere
13:09 moritz_ pmichaud++ implements perl 6 on parrot
13:10 moritz_ fglock++, ruoso++, pmurias++ and a few others hack on kp6 (which is a way to bootstrap 6-on-6)
13:10 [1]jaffa ++?
13:10 moritz_ TimToady++ writes the Perl 6 grammar in Perl 6
13:10 moritz_ [1]jaffa: I increase their karma while mentioning them ;)
13:10 moritz_ @karma TimToady
13:10 lambdabot TimToady has a karma of 6
13:11 [1]jaffa are you playing a game?
13:11 moritz_ not really
13:11 moritz_ it's just programmer's fun
13:12 moritz_ a very crude measurement for popularity+effort
13:13 Juerd Incredibly crude and inaccurate :)
13:13 moritz_ but still fun
13:13 moritz_ just for the sake of it ;)
13:13 [1]jaffa I wonder why perl6 has not been finished by now.
13:13 Juerd I think most people don't do it for the counters, but to indicate that they like certain people or their efforts.
13:13 moritz_ Juerd: did you find any tuits to restart trac?
13:13 Juerd Er
13:13 moritz_ Juerd: I couldn't find out how to do it :(
13:14 Juerd If trac doesn't live in apache2, then I don't know where it does.
13:14 moritz_ [1]jaffa: because it's a very powerfull, complex and totally new language
13:14 [1]jaffa So?
13:14 moritz_ [1]jaffa: it tries to embrace many different programming paradigms, and that's not easy to bring together
13:14 [1]jaffa don't you have enough manpower?
13:14 moritz_ that's one of the problems, yes
13:14 moritz_ would you like to help?
13:15 moritz_ obra: ping
13:15 Juerd [1]jaffa: You should realise that while Perl 6 was announced in 2000, implementation began in 2005
13:15 Juerd [1]jaffa: And the design still changes a little every now and then.
13:16 [1]jaffa who is controlling the process?
13:16 Juerd [1]jaffa: Nobody.
13:16 [1]jaffa is it going anywhere?
13:16 Juerd Yes, it is
13:16 moritz_ of course ;)
13:17 Juerd [1]jaffa: It's a completely volunteer effort, so one can't simply hand out tasks and expect them to be done.
13:17 [1]jaffa why python seems to move faster....
13:17 Juerd [1]jaffa: Things take a lot of time.
13:17 Juerd [1]jaffa: Python has more funding, and doesn't try to create a wholly new language :)
13:17 moritz_ [1]jaffa: python was not a complete redisgn
13:18 Juerd [1]jaffa: Also, don't worry about Perl 6 too much. There is Perl 5, which is a really great programming language. And we won't shoot you for using Python or Ruby either :)
13:18 [1]jaffa I use Perl 5
13:18 [1]jaffa I have written an IDE in it
13:18 Juerd Interesting
13:19 Juerd url?
13:19 moritz_ and soon there'll be perl 5.10 out
13:19 [1]jaffa I have not published it
13:20 moritz_ what language is the IDE for? perl as well?
13:20 [1]jaffa perl,c++,D
13:20 moritz_ sounds cool ;)
13:21 [1]jaffa it uses wxPerl
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13:24 [1]jaffa the problem is if perl 6 is not released fast enough, it is not going to be popular if that matters.
13:24 [1]jaffa there are many alternatives.
13:24 [1]jaffa Perl6 , who is it for?
13:25 moritz_ we know, but increasing pressure on the developers doesn't speed up the process
13:25 [1]jaffa if per6 design were complete, could parrot host it?
13:26 [1]jaffa is parrot complete enough?
13:26 moritz_ read http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/09/22/onion.html for "whom is it for"
13:26 lambdabot Title: perl.com: The State of the Onion 9
13:27 moritz_ regarding parrot - I think it's a worthy backend target right now, and improves steadily
13:28 moritz_ every turing complete VM could host perl 6, so you have to ask "how well is suited"
13:29 [1]jaffa ok
13:29 moritz_ and real soon it'll implement (nearly?) all of Perl 6's object model
13:29 [1]jaffa I would like to see executable backend.
13:29 moritz_ you're welcome to write one ;)
13:30 Juerd [1]jaffa: You seem to be under the impression that Perl 5 is not used?
13:30 [1]jaffa no, it is used.
13:30 [1]jaffa I am aware of that.
13:30 moritz_ the problem is that since perl 6 has an eval(), so every compiled exeutable that uses eval() has to have a full Perl 6 compiler linked in
13:30 [1]jaffa why is it a problem?
13:31 moritz_ it's not exactly a problem, but most people don't like that
13:31 moritz_ imagine each C program having gcc linked in :-)
13:31 [1]jaffa I don!t use eval a lot
13:31 [1]jaffa do you?
13:31 moritz_ yes
13:31 moritz_ I use 'use'
13:32 moritz_ which in turn calls require()
13:32 moritz_ which in turn calls do
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13:32 moritz_ which in turn runs eval
13:32 [1]jaffa but that is compile time thing,
13:32 [1]jaffa if I remember correctly
13:32 moritz_ right ;)
13:33 moritz_ at runtime I tend to avoid eval $string, and only use eval { ... } (which is completely different)
13:33 moritz_ but there are cases where string eval is really handy
13:33 avar Perl 6 doesn't only need the compiler for eval() it needs it for all the reasons common lisp compilers need a present compiler (which includes eval)
13:33 rgs if ($feature_is_supported) { require Foo::Bar }
13:33 moritz_ right
13:33 avar inc. macros
13:34 [1]jaffa well, all requires could not included
13:34 [1]jaffa well, all requires could be included
13:34 moritz_ you could have requires that collide
13:34 moritz_ but never happen simultaniously at run time
13:35 [1]jaffa I see
13:35 moritz_ there could be disambiguation methods, but they'd be rather complicated, and not worth the trouble
13:36 rgs see alos: plugins
13:36 rgs s/los/lso/
13:38 [1]jaffa I see
13:39 [1]jaffa What about you?
13:39 [1]jaffa have you never missed a exe backend?
13:39 moritz_ how much work would it be to make regex 1st class language constructs in perl 5?
13:39 moritz_ [1]jaffa: yes, but on the other hand I think it's overrated
13:40 [1]jaffa overrated
13:40 [1]jaffa ?
13:42 [1]jaffa by your opinion, what is important?
13:42 moritz_ there are many successfully languages that don't compile to machine code (and store that9
13:42 moritz_ s/9/)/
13:42 [1]jaffa what languages do you mean?
13:42 moritz_ like the perl, python, the .net family
13:42 moritz_ java, if you count that as "successful" ;)
13:43 [1]jaffa is it pretty popular as far as I know
13:43 moritz_ especially in computer science courses :/
13:43 [1]jaffa I have seen a statistics
13:44 moritz_ I know, everybody's looking for java hackers
13:44 moritz_ but my impression is that managers like it better than programmers :)
13:45 [1]jaffa possible.
13:45 [1]jaffa I liked the idea that it was platform-independent.
13:45 rgs in theory.
13:45 [1]jaffa mostly I guess
13:46 [1]jaffa as it is Perl.
13:46 moritz_ in practice it blocks access to non-portable system calls
13:46 moritz_ unlike perl ;)
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13:46 moritz_ anyway, bashing java is easy, implementing perl 6 isn't
13:47 [1]jaffa If I use win32 , it is not going to be platform independent.
13:47 ggoebel moritz: any word on a commit bit / Trac?  Whose door do I need to knock on if Juerd can't do it?
13:48 ggoebel Who are the maintainers for the various bots and services that pugs and onion depend on?
13:48 moritz_ ggoebel: I pinged obra++, who is our trac guru
13:49 moritz_ @seen obra
13:49 lambdabot obra is in #perl6. I last heard obra speak 15h 18m 3s ago.
13:49 [1]jaffa don't you think?
13:49 ggoebel If you use the right CPAN modules Perl isn't bad on Win32. Except for non-blocking IO...
13:49 moritz_ ggoebel: the maintainers are in the file 'SLAVES' in pugs root
13:49 [1]jaffa I mean Win32:: modules.
13:50 moritz_ [1]jaffa: if you want to access functionality that's only available on win32, there's no way around it
13:50 moritz_ and there's no point in disallowing it
13:51 ggoebel mncharity: ping
13:51 ggoebel We sure... if you opt in to the platform specific modules... you're code will be... platform specific!
13:52 ggoebel s/we sure/well sure/
13:52 [1]jaffa It makes me think, what does platform-independent mean?
13:53 [1]jaffa I ported a perl code from Win32 to UNix
13:53 [1]jaffa I had to deal with the files
13:53 [1]jaffa how they are represented.
13:53 moritz_ with File::Spec?
13:53 [1]jaffa no
13:54 [1]jaffa if I just use open, print, close...
13:54 Juerd What's wrong with trac on feather, by the way? It appears to work.
13:54 [1]jaffa that in self, not platform independent.
13:54 moritz_ Juerd: it doesn't work for me, proxy timeout
13:54 Juerd Weird, 'cause it's very fast for me
13:55 moritz_ which url?
13:55 Juerd dev.pugscode.org
13:55 moritz_ I try http://commitbit.pugscode.org/
13:55 Juerd Commitbit isn't trac
13:55 moritz_ oh damned, I always thought it was a trac plugin
13:56 moritz_ then mentally rephrase all my questions with s/trac/commitbit/
13:56 moritz_ ;-)
13:56 Juerd I restarted it but now it gives a 503
13:57 Juerd To restart commitbit, btw: cd /service; sudo svc -d commitbit; sudo svc -u commitbit
13:57 Juerd Ah, works now
13:57 Juerd Apparently it took some time to start - or someone else made it work in the past minute
14:00 moritz_ @tell ggoebel invitation sent. It's a custom to add your name to AUTHORS as first commit (and commit test)
14:00 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:00 moritz_ Juerd: thanks
14:00 moritz_ anybody else who wants a commit bit? ;-)
14:00 Juerd me! me!
14:00 [1]jaffa ok
14:01 [1]jaffa guys
14:01 [1]jaffa bye
14:01 moritz_ Juerd: /msg me your email and desired nick  ;)
14:01 moritz_ bye [1]jaffa, nice chat ;-)
14:01 moritz_ s/, /, that was a / ;-)
14:01 Juerd moritz_: :)
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16:01 obra ok. if you're hacking on Perl 6 implementation,  raise your hand.
16:02 obra I'm going to try to get together a "state of the onion patch"
16:03 * moritz_ raises hand tentativeley
16:03 moritz_ btw you can ignore my previous ping ;)
16:04 obra ok.
16:04 obra so. there are lots and lots of questions about "what implementations exist. where are they?"
16:04 obra I'd like to blog at the very least a list of implementations and how far along are they.
16:04 obra Are you up for braindumping to me what you know? ;)
16:05 moritz_ i'd like to see that in a wiki, so it can be edited easily
16:05 moritz_ ok, there's pug, which is p6 on haskell
16:05 moritz_ atm only plain haskell backend works, other backends are bit rotten
16:06 moritz_ there's parrot, which is the p6 VM, and many languages are implemented based on parrot
16:06 obra (important bit of data: how much of perl6 is implemented)
16:06 obra quibble: parrot isn't quite "The p6 vm" - it's a vm. the p6 implementation is very basic.
16:07 moritz_ pugs has much of the syntax right, lists, hashes, basic OO, basic regex, a bit IO
16:07 moritz_ most control constructs work in pugs
16:07 moritz_ but currently there is little pugs work, mostly because of audreyt++ being absent
16:08 moritz_ did I forget anything about pugs?
16:08 obra is there anyone else who's working to maintain pugs for synopsis updates?
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16:09 moritz_ there weere a few attempts by lumi++, masak++
16:09 moritz_ and TimToady++ did a few haskell hacks as well
16:09 moritz_ but the last haskell commit is more than a month ago, if I recall correctly
16:10 obra *nod*
16:11 moritz_ PIR and JS backends compile, but fail every single test in the test suite
16:12 moritz_ anything else you want to know about pugs?
16:12 obra I think that's good for pugs ;)
16:12 obra So. who's next?
16:13 moritz_ mp6/kp6 I'd say
16:14 moritz_ mp6 is bootstrap with its perl5 backend, PIR backend exists, but doesn't bootstrapped
16:14 moritz_ mp6 is pretty much frozen, except for occasional fixes or small feature additions
16:15 obra the goal of mp6 isn't to be a full implementation, right?
16:15 moritz_ right
16:15 moritz_ just enough to code kp6 in it
16:15 moritz_ that is, mostly regex/rules and a bit OO
16:15 dlocaus Juerd: responding to your comment, that it being a volunteer effort and one just can't hand out tasks, I think helping out would be a bit easier if the  "super" strucutre of kp6 was already broken out into easily testable tasks.
16:16 BinGOs joined #perl6
16:16 dlocaus kind of black box, but it may just be my timing in coming into the project...
16:16 moritz_ obra: kp6 is written in mp6, partly in kp6 as well, and has perl5 and CL runtime
16:17 moritz_ obra: kp6 implements grammars, OO, basic junctions, multi methods,
16:18 moritz_ obra: dan BEGIN blocks, closures
16:18 moritz_ s/dan/and/
16:18 obra how much of the pugs test suite can it run?
16:18 avar The CL runtime is incomplete
16:18 moritz_ not much, because it lacks much syntactic sugar
16:18 avar And it looks like there were some regressions recently
16:19 moritz_ and the grammar has precendence problems
16:19 moritz_ the plan was to get rid of thoses by swithcihng to STD.pm
16:19 obra how close is that?
16:20 moritz_ the current plan seems to be to insert another bootstrapping stage before, v6-Onion
16:20 Juerd dlocaus: Well, yes, I agree in general.
16:20 moritz_ obra: you have to ask fglock, he's working on that for quite some time...
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16:20 obra *nod*
16:20 Juerd dlocaus: Not much effort goes into making collaboration easier, unfortunately.
16:21 moritz_ he implemented lazy gather/take to supporrt TimToady's STD/metholate
16:21 obra moritz_: v6-Onion? (note that Onion is the name of the implementation of Perl 6 on Parrot)
16:21 dlocaus Juerd: oi! soemthing for me to work on.
16:21 dlocaus I'm currently looking at trying to solve t/kp6/internals/02-gather.t
16:21 dlocaus or ... documenting something
16:21 Juerd dlocaus++
16:21 moritz_ obra: yes, but there's no better na atm
16:21 moritz_ s/na/name/
16:22 moritz_ I'm not too happy with that
16:22 obra but it has nothing to do with the parrot implementation, right?
16:22 moritz_ right
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16:27 pmurias dlocaus: t/kp6/internals/02-gather.t work here
16:28 obra any other interesting p6 hacking efforts that haven't been getting a lot of press? ;)
16:30 dlocaus pmurias: 02-gather.t works here?
16:30 dlocaus works "there"
16:31 pmurias yes
16:31 pmurias do you have Coro?
16:32 dlocaus Coro?
16:32 pmurias Coro.pm from cpan
16:32 dlocaus no, I didn't know it was needed.
16:33 dlocaus Installing...
16:33 moritz_ obra: there's yaph
16:33 avar http://llvm.org/docs/tutorial/
16:33 lambdabot Title: LLVM Tutorial: Table of Contents
16:33 moritz_ obra: but I don't know much about it
16:33 avar onion/kp6 on llvm would be neat
16:34 moritz_ oa parrot emitter ;)
16:34 pmurias mp6 is bootstraped
16:34 avar obra: since when is the p6 on parrot called onion?
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16:34 moritz_ it isn't, officially
16:35 obra avar: um. at least 6 months ago. you'd have to ask pmichaud
16:35 dlocaus I think that happened a few days ago
16:35 pmurias obra: the reason for the kp6 bottleneck is that it can  bootstrap itself yet
16:35 obra it was something patrick brought up on the concall a while back. should be in the minutes chromatic posted.
16:35 avar somebody mentioned it as a /potential/ name in a mailing list
16:36 obra Patrick has been calling it onion, even if he hasn't had a lot of cycles to _hack_ on it.
16:36 dlocaus http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2007-10-25#i_131721
16:36 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2007-10-25
16:36 obra Regardless, he totally has prior claim on the name ;)
16:36 moritz_ right
16:37 obra dlocaus: that's the new thing folks here are discussing. not pmichaud's "perl 6 on parrot"
16:37 * dlocaus just wants p6 out the door, before PERL goes down in history, next to bash, tcsh, and sh.
16:37 moritz_ but it would be nice to know if he _really_ plans to rename use the name
16:37 obra I promise to ask him this week
16:37 moritz_ ok, do that ;)
16:37 obra There are many names in the world. I'm sure we can come up with something else ;)
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16:38 obra we/you/whichever. not going to force any names on anyone. just make sure we don't conflict
16:38 moritz_ and I'll try to convince everybody to name the new thing v6-Garlic ;)
16:38 dlocaus cool, ok 02-gather.t passes.
16:38 dlocaus I'll document that.
16:38 obra heh
16:38 avar dlocaus: uh, bash?
16:38 rgs or "thyme"
16:38 moritz_ rgs: that's nice, actually ;)
16:38 dlocaus yes.  There was an article on Perl buzz, saying that perl wasn't really that dead, and that it appeared popularly in many job offers.
16:39 moritz_ avar: bash is _so_ web 1.0 - web 2.0 uses zsh ;)
16:39 dlocaus When I see perl on craigslist.org job offers, it generally is right next to a list of shell scripting languages.
16:39 dlocaus avar: When I was doing job interviews, most people think perl is a shell scripting language.  It drives me nuts.
16:39 dlocaus I like tcsh.
16:40 obra ..web 2.0 uses yubnub
16:40 dlocaus I'm thinking I should start a beginners.html guide.  Any thoughts?
16:40 allbery_b an annoying number of people program perl as if it were a shell scripting language
16:41 dlocaus Take everything I've learned to-date (not much) and document it in docs/
16:41 dlocaus moritz_: ?
16:42 moritz_ dlocaus: just kidding ;)
16:42 dlocaus moritz_: no, I was asking about starting a beginners.html guide.
16:42 dlocaus Document things like Coro.pm being needed.
16:42 pmurias dlocaus: i found the cause of the bug you looked for
16:43 dlocaus 15&17?
16:43 pmurias yes
16:43 dlocaus ok.
16:43 moritz_ dlocaus: ah yes, that's a good idea
16:43 moritz_ dlocaus: I just didn't realize it was a question ;)
16:43 dlocaus oh.  np :)
16:45 dlocaus pmurias: did you fix the bug?
16:47 pmurias no
16:47 dlocaus pmurias: ok, are you passing this back to me? or working on it?
16:49 pmurias i'm not working on it so feel free
16:49 dlocaus ok.
16:53 pmurias dlocaus: do you know how to implement -> {return 1}?
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16:56 pmurias fixing a web 2.0 bug&
17:01 pugs_svn r18785 | dlo++ | [KP6] A basic beginners guide to helping out in KindaPerl-6.
17:01 pugs_svn r18785 | dlo++ | Please comment and update.
17:01 dlocaus @tell pmurias "I don't know how to implement {return 1}
17:01 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:06 pugs_svn r18786 | dlo++ | [kp6] added comment about prefixing with [kp6]
17:06 moritz_ recursion++ ;-)
17:07 pugs_svn r18787 | dlo++ | [kp6] Added a recent commits link
17:10 pugs_svn r18788 | dlo++ | added TODO list.
17:10 pmurias joined #perl6
17:12 pmurias t/kp6/56-token-sym.t i think is the easiest thing to hack on right now
17:12 lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:12 pugs_svn r18789 | dlo++ | [kp6] Minor formating changes.
17:13 dlocaus pmurias: was that last message for me?
17:13 pmurias from you
17:13 dlocaus pmurias: (this one)(09:12:04) pmurias: t/kp6/56-token-sym.t i think is the easiest thing to hack on right now
17:14 pmurias yes
17:14 dlocaus humm, ok. I'll work on that then.  (I haven't started on grammar_17_15_bug_ilustration.t)
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17:25 moritz_ kp6: say "'escaping test 1'";
17:25 exp_evalbot r18789: OUTPUT['escaping test 1'␤]
17:25 moritz_ kp6: say '"escaping test 2"';
17:26 exp_evalbot r18789: OUTPUT["escaping test 2"␤]
17:26 moritz_ kp6: say 'escaping \' test 3';
17:26 exp_evalbot r18789: OUTPUT[escaping \' test 3␤]
17:26 moritz_ kp6: say "escaping \" test 3";
17:26 exp_evalbot r18789: OUTPUT[escaping " test 3␤]
17:28 moritz_ kp6: say "escaping \\\" test 5";
17:28 exp_evalbot r18789: OUTPUT[escaping \" test 5␤]
17:29 pmurias moritz_: that bug breakes EmitPerl5 in garlic
17:29 moritz_ pmurias: which bug?
17:30 pmurias kp6: say 'escaping \' test 3';
17:30 exp_evalbot r18789: OUTPUT[escaping \' test 3␤]
17:30 moritz_ ah, right
17:36 ujwalic joined #perl6
17:38 dlocaus snack &
17:48 dlocaus yummm hummus and grapes!
17:49 * moritz_ had "Spätzle", for which I don't know an English word
17:50 moritz_ it's a bit like noodles, but they are thicker and contain eggs; usually served with cheese
17:50 moritz_ yummy as well ;)
17:50 dlocaus opps, I need to avoid fat.
17:51 dlocaus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A4tzle (Spatzle)
17:51 lambdabot Title: Spätzle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
17:52 dlocaus yumm
17:52 dlocaus looks good
17:52 moritz_ dlocaus: exactly that ;)
17:53 dlocaus wikipedia++
17:54 moritz_ spätzle++
17:54 justatheory joined #perl6
18:14 amnesiac joined #perl6
18:40 Psyche^ joined #perl6
18:43 pugs_svn r18790 | dlo++ | [KP6] Added Note about how to get around perl5's Debugger stack notice at 100 levels deep.
18:44 araujo joined #perl6
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19:14 dlocaus pmurias: t/kp6/56-token-sym.t ping!
19:15 dlocaus @seen pmurias
19:15 lambdabot pmurias is in #perl6. I last heard pmurias speak 1h 44m 31s ago.
19:18 dlocaus moritz_: ?
19:18 dlocaus moritz_: ping
19:20 pmurias dlocaus: pong
19:20 dlocaus I've traced the problem to Runtime::Perl6;:Mutli
19:20 dlocaus the Class "Multi" does not have add_token_variant implemented.
19:21 dlocaus MultiToken does, however, when I tried substuting it, I got an "syntax" error
19:21 rafl left #perl6
19:22 dlocaus pmurias: http://dev.pugscode.org/browser/v6/v6-Kinda​Perl6/src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl6/Multi.pm
19:22 lambdabot Title: /v6/v6-KindaPerl6/src/KindaP​erl6/Runtime/Perl6/Multi.pm - Pugs - Trac, http://tinyurl.com/29l9ma
19:23 pmurias dlocaus: where/when do you get the syntax error?
19:23 pugs_svn r18791 | dlo++ | [kp6] Multi.add_token_variant is not implemented in Runtime::Perl6::Multi
19:23 dlocaus pmurias: one second, getting
19:24 pmurias i moved add_token_variant to MultiToken as multi token and multi sub are seperate things
19:25 dlocaus pmurias: I made the conversion from Multi to MultiToken in KindaPerl/Grammar/Sub.pm line 194
19:25 dlocaus after re-compling I get this error
19:25 dlocaus kitty:~/volunteer/perl6/pugs/v6/v6-KindaPerl6> !perl
19:25 dlocaus perl script/kp6 t/kp6/56-token-sym.t
19:25 dlocaus *** Syntax Error in Block: missing closing curly bracket }
19:25 dlocaus error in Block at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib​/KindaPerl6/Grammar/Sub.pm line 753, <> line 1.
19:29 BinGOs joined #perl6
19:32 pmurias script/kp6 t/kp6/56-token-sym.t
19:32 pmurias gives me
19:32 pmurias not ok #...
19:33 JBoofy_ joined #perl6
19:33 dlocaus Sorry, I've updated the script to fail
19:35 dlocaus reverting
19:36 dlocaus reverted
19:36 pugs_svn r18792 | dlo++ | [kp6] reverted out changes
19:37 pugs_svn r18793 | dlo++ | [kp6] Removed contractions (English grammer)
19:43 mncharity ggoebel: pong
19:43 mncharity obra: I have to run in literally 15 min, but quickly,
19:44 mncharity In addition to current state of what exists, I'd be very interested in a characterization of the "negative space", the gaps where things are missing.
19:45 mncharity Eg, once upon a time we were stuck because only p6-hs could parse p6, its ast didn't include oo, and we were unclear how to implement oo in its backend.
19:45 mncharity and we didn't have a usable p6re engine, with which to create an alternate non-p6-hs frontend.
19:46 mncharity I'm not sure how much of all that has changed.  If a .lot, we may be "unstuck, but not realizing it".
19:47 mncharity Eg, it may be that Moose is an ok oo model, the kp6 ast has the right nodes to handle the entire test suite, and we now have a fast p6re.
19:52 mncharity back to front, if Moose plus (MultiMethods-Pure or kp6 multimethods) is a right thing, what would it take to document and get development of backends on assorted platforms unstuck.
19:53 BinGOs joined #perl6
19:54 mncharity if the kp6 ast isn't quite ready for doing the whole test suite, what would it take to become so?  Once is, can we do p6-hs ast <-> new kp6 ast (which would be the v2 ast we've been looking forward to for a couple of years now), conversion, and start driving backends with the non-oo entirety of t/.
19:56 mncharity do we now have a p6 rules engine which is both usable for development, and acceptably fast?  if not, what kp6 tweaking would be needed to get one?  are we using all the 5.latest goodness?
19:57 mncharity is STD something we think can be a next step implementation, or do we want to use it more as documentation, and do something simpler, half way inbetween existing impls and STD.
19:57 jisom joined #perl6
19:58 mncharity what would be the minimum tweaking needed to get kp6 to run against the test suite?  each time we spin up a new impl, progress is much faster once we can bang on t/.  what would it take to get a kp6 derivative there.
19:59 BinGOs joined #perl6
19:59 mncharity timeout.  bbl &
20:02 mncharity (btw, I'm told/know that I sometimes have a negative tone when doing design space analysis.  I'm actually tremendously grateful and happy with fglocks heroic efforts, everyone elses work, obra doing the onion, audreyt breathtaking contribution, TimToady's perseverence, patience and insight, and so many others.  P6 is a great project to have some connection to, and one I think very important for the soft. eng. and the world.)
20:03 mncharity re world, if anyone thinks I'm exagerating, OLPC has the potential for a major impact on 100 M's of kids' lives.  and every day I wish p6 had been ready for primetime.
20:03 mncharity &
20:09 BinGOs joined #perl6
20:20 pugs_svn r18794 | avar++ | Hack to make 5 more tests pass
20:26 moritz_ re
20:36 takanori joined #perl6
20:40 pmurias moritz_: re
20:42 BinGOs_ joined #perl6
20:43 thoughtpolice joined #perl6
20:45 pmurias avar: kp6 also does what your hack does
20:46 moritz_ sounds.. hacky
20:47 dlocaus pmurias: moritz_: well, is there anything you guys want me to work on?
20:47 pmurias dlocaus: is there anything you want to hack on?
20:48 dlocaus Documentation would probably be good.
20:49 dlocaus I realize a lot of this code will be tossed once onion comes into being, but it would be good to get some of onion? documentation going?
20:49 dlocaus will onion be the final release?
20:49 avar pmurias: good to know
20:49 avar dlocaus: some of it will be used for it at least
20:49 pmurias dlocaus: i don't know
20:50 moritz_ dlocaus: "final" sounds very... final ;) - I don't think it will be final
20:50 dlocaus mp->kp6->onion->??? ;)
20:50 pmurias onion won't toss so much code
20:50 dlocaus Well, I can refactor code if you want.
20:50 dlocaus I've been working on refactoring script/kp6 (I want to test it a bit more though...)
20:51 * dlocaus wants to help!!! :)
20:51 pmurias script/kp6 is very ugly
20:52 dlocaus I made it a lot less ugly :)
20:52 moritz_ dlocaus: then commit it, and let everybody else test it ;)
20:52 dlocaus I was thinking about sorting out the -st & stdout issue, but I wasn't sure that wouldn't be disrupptive to the end project.
20:53 pmurias dlocaus: i'm too confused by the MultiToken giving parse failures
20:53 pmurias dlocaus: you could try to work on kp6-kp6
20:54 dlocaus kp6-kp6?
20:54 pmurias wait
20:54 pugs_svn r18795 | dlo++ | [kp6] I have refactored script/kp6, I bottomed out a lot of the exit codes, attempted to clean up the documentation, while preserving the core of the code, please revert if I screwed up, and please send me the command that got refactored out dlocaus #perl6 irc.freenode.net
20:55 dlocaus I saw src-script/kp6-kp6, but I didn't know what to make of it.
20:55 moritz_ dlocaus: kp6-kp6 is what you get when you compile kp6 with kp6 instead of mp6
20:55 * dlocaus crriick!
20:55 dlocaus moritz_: doesn't kp6 using mp6 to compile kp6-kp6?
20:56 moritz_ now we're in that bootstapping discussion again ;)
20:56 dlocaus aye, that was the "crashing" sound in my head again.
20:57 moritz_ ussually when you compile kp6, you use mp6 for most of it, and kp6 for Runtime::Perl6::*
20:57 the_dormant joined #perl6
20:57 moritz_ now what we call kp6-kp6 is when you compile all of kp6 with kp6
20:57 moritz_ it compiles iirc, but it doesn't run yet
20:58 dlocaus moritz_: I'm not sure I'm ready for that, I'm still working on learning the perl6 language.
20:59 dlocaus ok, so we use kp6 w/ mp6 to compile kp6 into perl5 code?
20:59 moritz_ dlocaus: in which step do you mean? normal kp6-mp6?
21:00 pmurias in kp6-kp6 we don't use mp6 at all
21:00 moritz_ right
21:00 moritz_ because kp6 is a fully compiled perl5 image
21:00 dlocaus wouldn't it be
21:00 dlocaus perl script/kp -o kp6.pl src-script/kp6-kp6
21:01 pmurias yes
21:01 dlocaus where kp6.pl is a completely perl5 code.
21:01 moritz_ dlocaus: exactly
21:01 moritz_ dlocaus: so no mp6 involved anymore
21:01 * dlocaus urk!
21:01 moritz_ which is why we want the bootstrapping ;)
21:01 dlocaus You mean that everyone down wind of us, has to use the ::DISPATCH code?
21:01 avar no
21:02 dlocaus the perl5 code produced by script/kp6 is a bunch of ::DISPATCH calls...
21:02 lisppaste3 avar pasted "kp6 breakage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/50339
21:02 drupek12 joined #perl6
21:02 dlocaus avar: ok, I'll check into that
21:03 avar oh it's because of a svn conflict
21:03 avar works now
21:03 * avar likes lisppaste
21:04 avar They have a xml-rpc interface unlike sial.org so I can do M-x lisppaste-region in emacs easily:)
21:04 lisppaste3 dlocaus annotated #50339 with "it worked for me... " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/50339#1
21:04 avar yeah, my bad
21:04 dlocaus avar: ok
21:04 moritz_ avar: sial has a command line interface
21:04 moritz_ they provide a client script, I think it's perl
21:05 avar I know, but the xml-rpc stuff I can do in pure-elisp
21:07 dlocaus moritz_: pmurias: I'm going to try and come up with an document that explains how the code works.  IE, who does want and where.  If I'm lucky, I'll get "why" in there too. :)
21:08 baalial joined #perl6
21:08 dlocaus The "big picture" of kp6.  Which, is something I haven't been able to get a hold of in my head yet.
21:08 pjcj joined #perl6
21:08 * moritz_ not either
21:24 lisppaste3 avar pasted "What's the 't' in ast & perl5 output all about?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/50343
21:24 dlocaus what does CompUnit mean?
21:24 dlocaus CompileUnit?
21:25 moritz_ yes
21:25 avar "compilation unit"
21:25 moritz_ which is a module, package or class
21:28 dlocaus ok
21:28 dlocaus is that "compilation unit" Compiled? or need to be compiled?
21:29 avar It really means it can be stand-alonein some aspects, check out -Ccl for a better exmple than -Cperl5
21:29 avar @tell fglock "What's the 't' in ast & perl5 output all about?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/50343
21:29 lambdabot Consider it noted.
21:29 moritz_ are you talking about the AST?
21:29 avar The general thing, where does this t come from?
21:29 avar but yes, the ast
21:34 pmurias avar: you want to compile 't/kp6/21-oo.t'
21:34 pmurias ?
21:35 pmurias i think you put the -e by mistake
21:35 avar haha, right
21:35 avar thanks:)
21:36 pmurias the polite response to "thanks" is?
21:37 moritz_ "you're welcome"
21:37 pmurias thanks ;)
21:37 moritz_ or "yw" for short
21:40 pmurias dlocaus: the syntax errors in token proto come from inside COMPILER::begin_block($bind)
21:42 pmurias how are multi methods inherited as normal ones?
21:44 dlocaus pmurias: looking
21:45 dlocaus pmurias: as for the multi methods part, I don't know.  I'm still trying to grasp the big picture part.
21:47 pmurias * s/inherited/inherited,/ - in p6 i mean (not in kp6)
21:47 moritz_ pmurias: could you rephrase your question?
21:47 moritz_ I'd think "just like any other method"
21:48 Jamtech joined #perl6
21:48 moritz_ just the type of the invocant changes to that of the child class
21:48 pmurias is multi method inheritance the same as only method inheritance?
21:48 moritz_ yes, I think so
21:51 pmurias so one would have to add multi method visit($node) {callsame} at the end in a multi method based visitor
21:52 pmurias for example in Perl5Token
21:52 weinig joined #perl6
21:56 pmurias dlocaus: you might like fixing Emit::Perl6 (i don't think there are any hidden pitfalls in that task)
21:57 pmurias although you like writing a code overview more, do it
22:00 drupek1253 joined #perl6
22:00 avar urgh, proto objects
22:02 dlocaus pmurias: what does Emit::Perl6 need fixing?
22:02 dlocaus I'm attempting to find that compilation error... (it would help if I could read perl6)
22:02 dlocaus ;)
22:05 avar what error?
22:05 pmurias Emit::Perl6 should turn the ast back into valid perl6 code
22:06 avar should kp6->emitperl6->.p6->kp6 produce the same AST ?
22:06 dlocaus Humm, ok.  I think I'm some where in the middle of the this bug, but I'll check into p6->kp6->p6.
22:07 pmurias avar: yes
22:12 pmurias sleep&
22:15 dlocaus is class Main { ... } a requirement for perl6?
22:15 moritz_ no
22:15 dlocaus thanks
22:16 moritz_ it's a requirement for mp6 though, iirc
22:17 mncharity dlocaus: a "wrap your head around it" intro (blog post?) to kp6/mp6 would be nifty.
22:17 dlocaus mncharity: aye, I'll be working on that.
22:18 dlocaus I've finally found what was causing the MultiToken problem, or rather, I've found how to "properly" invoke it.
22:18 dlocaus proto token xyz { };
22:18 dlocaus The compilier doesn't like Empty brakets
22:18 dlocaus proto token xyz { 1; };
22:18 dlocaus this works, sort of.
22:18 dlocaus well, it compiles
22:18 mncharity *caveat, _I'd think_ would be nifty.  My head is as yet unwrapped, so I'm hypothesizing.
22:20 dlocaus mncharity: some of the problem with modifing this code, is you don't know where it came from.
22:23 dlocaus http://dev.pugscode.org/browser/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/​compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Grammar.pm
22:23 lambdabot Title: /v6/v6-KindaPerl6/compiled/perl5-​kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Grammar.pm - Pugs - Trac, http://tinyurl.com/25fh8q
22:23 dlocaus I was stuffing my head into this file.
22:23 mncharity that first step of getting familiar with an unfamiliar project is often a challenge / barrier to entry.
22:23 dlocaus That code, I think is perl6 code produced by mp6.
22:23 mncharity re "stuffing my head into this file", hmm, you might try the reverse...
22:24 dlocaus sorry, is perl5 code produced produced by mp6, which I think is a translation from perl6.
22:24 dlocaus mncharity: I don't think I can pull the reverse off.
22:24 dlocaus The file is just too complicated.
22:26 avar perl5.9.5 script/kp6 -Cast t/kp6/21-oo.t <= fails
22:27 moritz_ avar: does it work with perl 5.8?
22:32 dlocaus I have to pick up my dog (teeth cleaning) &
22:32 mncharity dlocaus: re complicated, for mechanically generated code it helps if you approach it systematically.  eg, if you don't have an editor which can show you just the top level sub names, then grep them out, and start an analysis doc.  for boilerplate, consider bulk s///ing it away.  And then block by block, go through either adding comments, or discarding code for clear pseudo code.  Eventually get a handle on whats going on.  And start t
22:33 dlocaus mncharity: go ahead, I'll read up on the log when I get back :)
22:33 pugs_svn r18796 | avar++ | [kp6] this print_perl() never worked on installations without Perl::Tidy
22:33 avar fixed it
22:33 avar moritz_: yes
22:35 mncharity actually, given that Grammar.pm is generated, first step should probably to look at the file it was generated _from_, no?
22:41 avar eek!
22:42 avar dlocaus: Do your manual changes to compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/Kin​daPerl6/Visitor/Emit/Perl5.pm need to be kept?
22:42 avar dlocaus: That "free unreferenced scalar" thing is a bug in the perl interpreter, it's fixed in the 5.8.9 branch and 5.10
22:44 pugs_svn r18797 | avar++ | [kp6] Emit some comments to make ::Method() easier to read in the emitted code. this overwrites some MANUAL CHANGES to the emitted file by dlocaus which probably don't need to be there
22:44 avar caps for the changelogs
22:46 weinig joined #perl6
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23:32 dlocaus avar: don't worry about it
23:33 dlocaus avar: its just some code I put in there to help pmurias / fglock find a bug.
23:34 dlocaus avar: I can add it in if the bug hasn't gone away
23:34 dlocaus and I'm away again, pick up my dad at the airport.
23:35 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
23:51 fglock joined #perl6

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