Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-11-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:23 mncharity From another channel:  A historian who spoke last week in SF says that every project looks like failure in midstream, even right up to before the end.  (Indeed if you stopped then, you *would* fail...)   so it's important to enjoy the process all the way through, if possible.
02:25 mncharity @tell fglock This went by on another channel, thought you might like it:   A historian who spoke last week in SF says that every project looks like failure in midstream, even right up to before the end.  (Indeed if you stopped then, you *would* fail...)   so it's important to enjoy the process all the way through, if possible.
02:25 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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07:05 duzy` greeting..
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07:13 agentzh duzy`: hi :)
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07:43 Teratogen what is to keep Perl 6 from turning into an academic language?
07:44 moritz_ good morning
07:44 Teratogen greetings and felicitations
07:44 moritz_ Teratogen: what makes you think that that's a danger?
07:45 Teratogen the direction that the language is taking
07:45 faxathisia I think Perl 6 would be suitable for teaching as well
07:46 moritz_ Teratogen: could you elaborate a bit more?
07:47 Tene Teratogen: I'm interested in and curious about what you're referring to.
07:50 Teratogen it all started with sigil invariance, imho
07:50 Teratogen very un-Perlish
07:51 Teratogen Junctions seem to be an academic add-on
07:52 Teratogen and why not just have a simple but powerful text macro facility, like perl -P ?
07:52 Teratogen why did Larry include -P in the first place?
07:52 Teratogen because it is powerful
07:52 moritz_ I never used it
07:52 Teratogen a textual macro preprocessor would be nice
07:52 moritz_ and I never saw/heard anybody recommending it
07:52 Teratogen then why does -P exist?
07:53 moritz_ historical reasons?
07:53 Teratogen because the C preprocessor is very powerful
07:53 Teratogen ans simple
07:53 faxathisia Teratogen: I thought Junctions are pretty useful
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07:53 moritz_ I think that sigil invariance is quite perlish, because it's very intuitive for beginners
07:53 rgs perl -P has been deprecated in perl 5
07:53 Tene Teratogen: I was curious about the utility of junctions before I wrote code using them.
07:54 Tene Now I like them.
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07:54 dlocaus @tell fglock I did not make much progress on refactoring $::Value out of MOP.pm, there is some intertwining with other classes, I wasn't sure how to handle. I will resume work on it tomorrow afternoon.
07:54 lambdabot Consider it noted.
07:54 dlocaus lambdabot++
07:55 dlocaus moritz_: you are still up?
07:55 moritz_ dlocaus: I just got up ;)
07:55 Teratogen will Perl 6 ever replace Perl 5?
07:55 Teratogen there, a simpler question.
07:55 dlocaus oh, I'm going to sleep :)
07:55 Teratogen good night
07:55 moritz_ dlocaus: I'm in Europe, it's 9AM here ;)
07:55 moritz_ dlocaus: good night ;)
07:55 Teratogen it's 1 AM here but I will be up all night!
07:55 * dlocaus waves
07:56 moritz_ Teratogen: I think it will, but it will take lots of time...
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07:56 moritz_ perhaps 5 to 10 years after perl 6 is released
07:56 Teratogen that's a good question
07:56 Teratogen when will Perl 6 be released?
07:56 Teratogen is there any rush to production?
07:56 moritz_ you see, there are still people around who use perl 5.6
07:56 moritz_ even though that's _really_ old
07:56 Teratogen I still see code that has "use 5.004" in it
07:57 moritz_ omg
07:57 moritz_ there's no release date
07:57 moritz_ the canonical answer is "christmas"
07:57 moritz_ but we don't say which christmas
07:57 Tene Parrot has some scheduled release dates, but that's for Parrot, not for Perl 6.
07:57 moritz_ and once perl 6 is released, every day is christmas ;)
07:58 Teratogen what's to keep Perl 6 from becoming just another flavor of Lisp?
07:59 moritz_ the syntax
07:59 moritz_ that's one of the big differences... lisp has very cool semantics, but a clumsy syntax
07:59 Aankhen`` Teratogen: You do realize that most languages qualify as Lisps?
07:59 Teratogen you can write a Lisp pretty easily in most languages, I suppose
07:59 Teratogen is that what you are saying?
08:00 moritz_ the more a language evolves, the more it feels like lisp
08:00 Teratogen not C
08:00 Teratogen C has pretty much evolved
08:00 Teratogen and it is definitely not Lisp
08:01 moritz_ yes, there are excpetions ;)
08:01 Teratogen and C has a helluva good macro preprocessor!
08:01 Aankhen`` moritz_: Pfft, there's nothing clumsy about it.  You simply haven't seen the light yet! :-P
08:01 Aankhen`` Teratogen: How much Perl 6 code have you written?
08:01 faxathisia no not really CPP is quite bad
08:01 moritz_ it's just text replacement
08:01 Teratogen zero lines of Perl 6
08:01 Aankhen`` <Teratogen> and C has a helluva good macro preprocessor! # LMAO.
08:02 Teratogen Aankhen what is bad about it?
08:02 moritz_ Aankhen``: aye, I haven't seen it. Feel free to enlighten me
08:02 Aankhen`` Teratogen: Ah, well, if I may, I suggest you try writing some Perl 6 and see just how "academic" it feels to you.
08:02 Teratogen ok
08:02 Aankhen`` What is bad about textual replacement of source code?  Are you asking a serious question? o_O
08:02 faxathisia Teratogen: It's string and line based textual replacement.. That's does not reflect the structure of a C program
08:02 Teratogen it's still very powerful for such a simple facility
08:02 Aankhen`` moritz_: Oh, enlightenment has to be gained for yourself. ;-)
08:03 Teratogen file inclusion, macros, macros with arguments, conditional compilation
08:03 moritz_ Aankhen``: oh come on, don't be such a git ;)
08:03 Aankhen`` moritz_: Er, wha?
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08:04 Aankhen`` Teratogen: Sure, it's a reasonably powerful hack.
08:04 faxathisia Perl 6 is not going to be another lisp since it doesn't have homoiconicity
08:04 Teratogen fax, that sounds so gay
08:04 Teratogen =)
08:04 faxathisia (being lisp isn't really a goal for a programming language though.. hopefully)
08:05 * Teratogen has to look up that word
08:05 Teratogen homowhaticity?
08:05 faxathisia Teratogen: data and code having the same structure and being able to translate between the two, roughly
08:06 faxathisia Perl 6 doesn't work that way, but that's not a bad thing [if everybody looked the same..]
08:08 Teratogen ah
08:09 moritz_ IRC is such an evil time killer
08:10 Tene faxathisia: actually, I was pretty sure that it would... Perl 6 will ship with a Perl 6 grammar...
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11:00 fglock mncharity: :)
11:00 lambdabot fglock: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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11:11 pugs_svn r18853 | fglock++ | [kp6] more autovivification tests
11:22 pugs_svn r18854 | fglock++ | [kp6] cleanup an extra 'bless'
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13:42 Zaba moin
13:42 moritz_ good localtime() Zaba ;)
13:42 Zaba I wonder if it is just me, or pugs isslow? I can't really try it locally because of it being so =(
13:43 Zaba and run.pugscode.org gives an error
13:43 moritz_ pugs build or pugs execution?
13:43 Zaba execution
13:43 Zaba it takes a lot of time to load into interactive mode, or to run a script, and execution itself is slow
13:44 moritz_ time ./pugs -e 'say "hi"'
13:44 moritz_ real    0m0.322s
13:44 Zaba I had to uninstall it during a recent cleanup, but I still want to know
13:44 Zaba I've amd64 box btw
13:44 moritz_ it's not as fast as perl5, but generally it's not _that_ slow
13:44 * moritz_ has 2 GHz (32bit) with linux and enough ram
13:45 Zaba ?eval say "hi";
13:45 Zaba moritz_, I've 768 mb ram
13:45 Zaba and it was horribly slow =/
13:45 moritz_ pugs: say "hi"
13:45 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[hi␤]
13:46 moritz_ Zaba: that should be enough... did you build with "make soon"?
13:46 Zaba pugs: [~] <m oo se>
13:46 exp_evalbot OUTPUT["moose"␤]
13:46 Zaba moritz_, don't remember
13:46 Zaba wait
13:46 Zaba hmm
13:46 Zaba don't know that is
13:47 Zaba =/
13:48 Zaba but i'd seriously want it to work at least as fast as perl5.. or even faster
13:49 Zaba moritz_, when will pugs be released as stable? somewhere Q2 2008?
13:49 moritz_ Zaba: there's no schedule
13:50 moritz_ it's release when it's done
13:50 Zaba well
13:50 moritz_ currently there's very little pugs activity, due to audreyt++ being absent
13:51 moritz_ but there's some kp6 hacking for example
13:52 Zaba hmm
13:54 moritz_ Zaba: but contributions are always welcome
13:54 moritz_ Zaba: do you have a commit bit yet?
13:56 Zaba moritz_, no and I don't know haskell
13:57 Zaba pugs: say localtime
13:57 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    at /tmp/ieH8vsNbdu line 2, column 1␤]
13:57 Zaba pugs: say localtime()
13:57 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<obj:Time::Local>␤]
13:57 moritz_ Zaba: kp6 is pure perl5 + perl6
13:57 moritz_ pugs: say localtime.perl
13:57 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<obj:Time::Local>␤]
13:57 moritz_ dammit
13:57 Zaba kp6?
13:58 moritz_ http://www.pugscode.org/kp6.html
13:58 lambdabot Title: kp6 - KindaPerl6
13:58 moritz_ a perl 6 compiler written in a subset of perl 6
13:58 moritz_ currently emits perl 5 or (limited) lisp
13:59 Zaba moritz_, hmm
13:59 Zaba moritz_, what's the point of it? :P
13:59 moritz_ anyway, gotta go :(
13:59 moritz_ Zaba: having an implemenation
13:59 Zaba well
13:59 moritz_ -Ofun
13:59 Zaba -Ofun?
14:00 moritz_ the number of skilled haskell hackers is rather limited
14:00 Zaba Unrecognized switch: -Ofun  (-h will show valid options).
14:00 moritz_ "optimized for fun"
14:00 Zaba oh I see
14:00 Zaba :D
14:00 moritz_ like gcc's -O options ;)
14:00 moritz_ see ya later
14:01 Zaba cya
14:01 kolibrie Zaba: I use the perl5 stuff to compile perl6 code to perl5 so I can use it in production at work
14:03 Zaba oh
14:03 Zaba I see
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14:05 kolibrie plus, as moritz_ says, it's fun
14:08 kolibrie Zaba: do you want a commit bit?
14:09 Zaba kolibrie, not sure
14:09 Zaba I don't have much to commit, I think =/
14:10 kolibrie well, look around, and just ask here if you want one - many people can give you one
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14:13 Zaba kolibrie, if I would be able to certainly say 'yes I'll write useful code'...
14:14 kolibrie Zaba: or documentation, or tests
14:14 Zaba hmm
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15:13 pugs_svn r18856 | fglock++ | [kp6] t/todo/63-autovivify.t resolved
15:20 pugs_svn r18857 | fglock++ | [kp6] new test t/todo/65-autovivify-deep.t
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15:30 pugs_svn r18858 | fglock++ | [kp6] t/todo/14-compile-time-bind.t resolved
15:34 pugs_svn r18859 | fglock++ | [kp6] t/todo/62-say-in-begin.t resolved
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15:42 pugs_svn r18860 | pmurias++ | [kp6] moved say "1..1" into BEGIN
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16:20 pmurias Teratogen: perl6 macroes can also be used as textual ones
16:21 Teratogen ah
16:21 Teratogen that's good
16:26 pmurias Teratogen: regarding cpp badness #include is a hack, #define isn't lexicaly scoped
16:29 Zaba which haskell compiler do you guys use?
16:29 pmurias pugs uses ghc
16:29 moritz_ ghc
16:29 Zaba oh.
16:30 Zaba =/
16:30 moritz_ 6.6.1 at leasts
16:30 moritz_ s/s$//
16:30 Zaba yeah.
16:30 * Zaba uses gentoo
16:30 Zaba last time I tried, ghc was from portage, pugs was manually in ~
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16:31 Patterner Zaba++
16:31 Zaba and well.. it was slow =/
16:31 Patterner (don't use the haskell overlay, lots of uncompilable packages...)
16:31 Zaba very slow.
16:31 Zaba Patterner, I don't
16:31 Zaba pugs is in portage
16:31 Zaba Available versions:  (~)6.2.10 (~)6.2.11 (~)6.2.12 (~)6.2.13
16:31 Zaba I suppose it's not new
16:32 Patterner I suppose it's old :)
16:33 Zaba how much does compiling pugs take?
16:33 Zaba usually
16:33 PerlJam Zaba: lots
16:34 Zaba PerlJam, thought so.. but about how much anyway
16:34 Zaba ;-)
16:34 Patterner 20 minutes
16:35 Zaba is it lots?
16:35 moritz_ depending on your RAM, mostly
16:35 moritz_ if you have ~0.5G free, it's not soo slow
16:36 moritz_ if you have less, it starts swapping :/
16:36 Zaba hmm
16:36 Zaba well I got 768mb ram
16:36 Zaba and how much does ghc build?
16:37 Patterner 70 minutes for 6.8.1
16:37 Zaba gah
16:37 Zaba >_<
16:38 moritz_ well, bootstrapping compilation takes quite some time ;)
16:39 pmurias portage ghc-bin should be more upto date then it is :(
16:39 pmurias * up to
16:39 Zaba yeah
16:39 Patterner On an old 2.4GHz Athlon x86_64
16:39 Zaba still only 6.4.2
16:40 pmurias Zaba: it's 6.6 in portage here
16:40 Zaba pmurias, oh, then I need to get and update world on this weekend
16:41 moritz_ even debian is more up to date than 6.4.2 ;)
16:48 moritz_ building debian packages: real    11m37.514s
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19:12 bbkr_ i followed the instructions on root/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/docs/beginners-guide.html (pugs works) but i don't have "scripts/kp6" mentioned in this document. how to build KP6??
19:17 pugs_svn r18861 | fglock++ | [misc...Toto] implemented "xpdl" output
19:17 pugs_svn r18862 | fglock++ | [misc...Toto] finished last commit
19:18 fglock bbkr_: it should be in v6/v6-KindaPerl6/scripts/
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19:46 pugs_svn r18863 | fglock++ | [misc...Toto] generated diagram is more cute
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20:58 fglock "tot2xpdl.pl" matches a source code using a Perl 6 grammar, and then emits to the target format using Template Toolkit
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