Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-11-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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08:13 moritz_ good morning
08:14 moritz_ does anybody else has problems connecting to irc.perl.org?
08:14 moritz_ connection times out
08:16 Aankhen`` Not here.
08:20 moritz_ dammit
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10:16 sstanvir what is the regular expression for a range of numbers?
10:16 sstanvir for example, 21-58 , the regular expression would be [21-58] ?
10:20 sstanvir will anybody please answer..?
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10:27 Juerd sstanvir: Regular expressions don't work like that. A regex has no concept of "number", only of characters.
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10:28 fglock building a regular expression that recognizes all the possible strings in a range of numbers is possible, but it's complicated
10:28 Juerd sstanvir: To match 21..58, you'd need to come up with something that matches all possible combinations of digits: /^(?: 2[1-9] | [34][0-9] | 5[0-8] )\z/x
10:29 Juerd sstanvir: Clearly this is something you should not be using a regex for.
10:37 sstanvir Juerd, but I hv to hv some sort of regular expression
10:37 sstanvir based on user's input I hv to prepare the expression
10:37 sstanvir I can make if I know the start and end
10:38 sstanvir like for 21-58:   I can prepare 2[1-9]|(3|4)[0-9]|5[0-8]
10:38 sstanvir but when I dont know the start and end.. is there any way ?
10:38 sstanvir [$start - $end] is not the right RE for range?
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10:47 sstanvir ....
10:48 spinclad you are right, that RE has nothing to do with a range of int values
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10:59 spinclad how about something like:  / $n := (\d+) { fail unless +$n ~~ ($start .. $end) } /
11:01 spinclad sstanvir: ^
11:01 sstanvir :)
11:01 sstanvir yes, spinclad
11:01 sstanvir I was trying to prepare an algorithm
11:02 sstanvir but I didnt understand ur algorithm
11:03 spinclad match a number, bind to $n; reject it if as a number it's out of range.
11:04 sstanvir actually I dont know the range..
11:04 sstanvir all I need is to prepare the RE based on user input
11:04 sstanvir if user inputs min:100 max: 50005 the regular expression has to be something that matches 100-50005
11:04 spinclad oh, you need to match a range but you don't know its bounds?  that could be harder, indeed.
11:04 sstanvir hmm
11:05 sstanvir yes, whatever user inputs the Regular expression will be generated based on that
11:06 spinclad ok, so by the time you use the RE, you know the bounds.  all set then, i think.
11:10 sstanvir its like if user inputs 21, 58 the  RE would be 2[1-9]|34[0-9]|5[0-8]
11:10 sstanvir but if user inputs 71, 93
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11:11 spinclad well, if you don't like my way, have fun
11:11 sstanvir it has to be 7[1-9]|8[0-9]|9[0-3]
11:11 sstanvir what is ur way spinclad, I didnt get u
11:11 spinclad $n := (\d+) { fail unless +$n ~~ ($start .. $end) } /
11:12 sstanvir but its not for checking.. I hv to generate the RE and save into DB
11:13 spinclad this is an RE that matches a range.  save it to the DB with values for $start and $end.
11:13 spinclad or else you have more constraints than you've said as yet.
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11:14 spinclad you are talking about Perl 6 RE's, yes?
11:15 sstanvir actually I am trying in php
11:15 spinclad oh. no idea.  ask in #php maybe.
11:15 sstanvir sorry for not mentioning earlier
11:18 sstanvir thnx anyway, spinclad
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12:44 moritz_ kp6: say "back again"
12:44 exp_evalbot r18880: OUTPUT[back again␤]
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15:30 fglock I and ruoso were talking about making MiniPerl6 a "stage1" compiler, and KindaPerl6 would be "stage2"
15:30 ruoso this basically mens that MP6 would then generate code targetting KP6 runtime
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15:30 fglock this makes it possible to rewrite the MOP in MiniPerl6
15:31 ruoso and the kp6 bootstrap would be easier also
15:32 ruoso as there would be no runtime divergence
15:32 ruoso as there is today
15:32 fglock hmm - Haskell has a stage3 compiler
15:33 fglock ah, gcc does too
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15:55 fglock mp6-stage1 compiles MOP.pm,
15:55 fglock mp6-stage2 uses MOP.pm,
15:55 fglock kp6 is stage3
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16:01 dlocaus 'allo!
16:01 fglock dlocaus: hi!
16:02 dlocaus fglock: I'm confused about a practice of yours.
16:02 dlocaus Sometimes you use "$::meta_(something)" and other times you will do "my $meta_something"
16:02 * dlocaus scratches his head
16:04 dlocaus fglock: here is an example of a global meta container
16:04 dlocaus http://dev.pugscode.org/browser/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/Container.pm#L162
16:05 dlocaus here is an example of a lexical container
16:05 dlocaus http://dev.pugscode.org/browser/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/Container.pm#L206
16:05 dlocaus are the meta_ values supposed to be lexical or global?
16:06 fglock dlocaus: looking
16:07 fglock dlocaus: I'd rather use ::DISPATCH( $::Container, 'HOW' ) everywhere, instead of $mets_XXX
16:07 fglock meta_XXX
16:08 dlocaus ah, ok.
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16:20 pmurias_ i guess calling MiniPerl6 stage1 is sort of fine (as stage1 is the previous version)
16:21 pmurias_ mp6-stage-2 would be a diffrent code base?
16:24 ruoso pmurias_, calling mp6 stage 1 have a different meaning from what it is today
16:24 fglock pmurias_: mp6-stage2 would use the MOP calling conventions
16:24 ruoso as mp6 currently doesn't target kp6 runtime
16:24 fglock but it's the same code
16:24 ruoso mp6 stage 1 would generate mp6 with kp6 runtime
16:24 fglock same source code
16:25 fglock ruoso: that's stage 2,
16:25 ruoso yep... yep...
16:25 fglock stage 1 is low level
16:25 ruoso sorry
16:25 moritz_ can kp6 compile mp6?
16:25 fglock yes, it should
16:25 moritz_ .oO( or is that a forbidden question? ;-)
16:26 ruoso in theory, we could make it completely in kp6
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16:26 ruoso the problem is that kp6 is too complex to bootstrap
16:26 fglock which means, kp6 could do stage 1
16:26 ruoso and one of the reasons kp6 is so complex
16:26 ruoso is because mp6 is not a "stage 1" compiler
16:26 ruoso not today, I mean
16:27 fglock ruoso: how about making kp6-stage1?
16:27 ruoso we need kp6-kp6 working for that
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16:27 ruoso which is a complicated task
16:27 fglock we just need a special emitter
16:28 ruoso ah... that.. yes
16:28 ruoso in fact
16:28 fglock :)
16:28 ruoso but without bootstrapping kp6, it won't be much usefull
16:28 moritz_ what's the problem with bootstrapping kp6? BEGIN blocks?
16:28 pmurias_ moritz_: parsing it
16:28 ruoso moritz_, incompatibilities between mp6 runtime and kp6 runtime
16:29 ruoso kp6 counts on mp6 runtime today
16:29 fglock ruoso: it's as useful as mp6-stage1, but possibly easier
16:29 ruoso it needs to be ported to be pure-kp6
16:29 ruoso fglock, mp6 already is the compiler for kp6
16:29 ruoso mp6-stage1 would just provide a different runtime to mp6-as-it-is-today
16:29 fglock yes, but kp6-stage1 would replace mp6
16:30 fglock than we can implement kp6-stage2
16:30 ruoso fglock, only when you bootstrap it
16:30 fglock kp6-stage2 would compile kp6 to stage3
16:30 ruoso it won't replace it before that
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16:30 fglock using the "kp6" runtime
16:31 fglock it works the same, whether you use mp6 or kp6
16:31 ruoso hmmm
16:31 fglock but using kp6 is "cleaner"
16:31 ruoso putting it clearly... stage1 generates a "libkp6" which is the runtime used by "stage2"
16:32 ruoso used by the code generated by stage2 I mean
16:32 fglock yes, stage1 compiles the MOP
16:32 fglock (stage1 doesn't use or need the MOP)
16:32 ruoso stage2 compiles itself using the MOP
16:33 fglock yes
16:33 ruoso to get to stage3, which is the final compiler
16:33 ruoso so, the compiler from stage1 needs to be bootstrapped
16:33 ruoso in stage2
16:33 ruoso to result as the stage3 compiler
16:34 fglock hmm - so in the end we really need mp6, because kp6-in-kp6 is not portable? but we can still cross-compile
16:35 fglock so it's not a problem
16:35 pmurias is mp6 portable?
16:35 ruoso I was just saying that bootstrapping mp6 is easier than bootstrapping kp6
16:35 fglock it's reasonably portable
16:37 ruoso and if we bootstrap from mp6, it will be easier to later bootstrapping kp6
16:37 pmurias ruoso: you mean changing mp6 to emit kp6-calling-conventions code
16:37 pmurias ?
16:37 ruoso pmurias, that is the stage2 compiler
16:37 pmurias i think mp6 is bootstraped
16:37 ruoso pmurias, it is, but it is not a cross compiler
16:37 ruoso stage2 is a cross-compiler
16:37 ruoso it runs using the mp6 runtime, but generates kp6 runtime
16:38 fglock ok, I think keeping mp6 is saner
16:38 fglock because kp6 won't recompile easily with a stage1/2 compiler
16:39 ruoso yep... that's the point...
16:39 ruoso on the other hand...
16:39 pmurias fglock: keeping mp6 in the long term or untill a working bootstrap?
16:39 ruoso it will be very much easier to bootstrap kp6 once we have a stage1/2 mp6
16:39 fglock pmurias: keeping it for future bootstraps
16:39 ruoso pmurias, after kp6 bootstrap, we can implement a cross-compiler in kp6
16:40 ruoso but it would be hard to do it before the bootstrap
16:40 fglock that's a plan :)
16:41 pmurias kp6 is a cross-compiler now
16:41 ruoso pmurias, not until it is bootstrapped
16:41 ruoso it can't compile itself
16:41 fglock all we need is to port kp6-emit-perl5 back to mp6
16:42 ruoso fglock, not exactly
16:42 ruoso the code mp6-stage1 should emit is different
16:42 ruoso because it's kp6-lowlevel
16:42 ruoso it just declares the data structures that the stage2 compiler will use
16:42 ruoso but it can't use it yet
16:43 ruoso mp6-stage1 can't use $::DISPATCH, as it is the one who will define it
16:43 ruoso it will use low-level runtime to declare what "$::DISPATCH" is
16:43 fglock ruoso: mp6-stage1 is the current mp6
16:43 ruoso fglock, kinda
16:44 ruoso the MOP is missing
16:44 ruoso I mean
16:44 ruoso the MOP source, so it can be a stage1 in a practical term
16:45 fglock yes, but that's a library problem - the compiler is ok
16:45 * dlocaus wonders why he always has 3 computers and only 1 motherboard manual.
16:47 fglock you can develop and refine the MOP separately
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16:53 ruoso but you need to recompile the entire compiler (all 3 stages) everytime you do it
16:54 * dlocaus argh, I'll never buy a single processor MB again.
16:54 dlocaus 3.2Ghz, and these tests take forever.
16:55 fglock ruoso: from stage 2 and up
16:56 pmurias from stage 3 and up
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16:58 fglock Namespace.pm still doesn't work :(
17:01 fglock coffee &
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17:21 pmurias won't mp6-stage2 be horribly slow?
17:26 dlocaus Is there a particular reason that we use perltidy to produce output to STDOUT?
17:26 dlocaus forcing standard out in util/perltidyrc "-st" seams makes things awkward.  Does anyone mind if I fix this?
17:27 dlocaus moritz_: ?
17:28 pmurias dlocaus: where should perltidy output to then?
17:28 fglock re slow, maybe - but perl5rx should fix that until we have an optimizer
17:29 pmurias so we would also have to backport perl5rx?
17:29 dlocaus pmurias: in many places the xecution of perltidy is such
17:29 dlocaus perl ... | perltidy -pro=util/perltidyrc  > $@
17:29 dlocaus when it could be
17:29 dlocaus perl ... | perltidy -pro=util/perltidyrc -o $@
17:30 dlocaus pmurias: by forcing "-st" it screws up internal perl "use Perl::Tidy" executions by causing havoc with the I/O
17:30 fglock pmurias: hmm
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17:30 pmurias dlocaus: i think you could change it
17:31 dlocaus pmurias: ok
17:31 fglock pmurias: we have the option to keep the grammar compilation in stage1, which is more optimized
17:32 fglock it almost makes sense
17:32 dlocaus all: I don't mean to seam all needy with these questions.  It is just that in the "programming culture" I grew up in, messing around with another programmers code (uninvited) was just not done, unless it had to be fixed "now!".  And if you messed around just to make "style" changes... omg.
17:33 fglock dlocaus: the reason to use Perl::Tidy was to keep diffs smaller,
17:33 fglock but it actually messes up with some regexes
17:33 fglock so it was disabled for kp6-kp6
17:34 dlocaus ok.. I'll see if I can find some place to note that.
17:34 fglock please do what you are pleased to do :)
17:35 dlocaus :)
17:35 pmurias fglock: re "style" why do you use }\nelse {?
17:36 fglock pmurias: how do you like it?
17:36 pmurias i can cope ;)
17:37 fglock I think I read it in a style guide smewhere
17:37 fglock somewhere
17:40 fglock how do I fix "A checksum mismatch occurred: ... Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm" (in my feather svk repo)
17:40 pmurias svk up?
17:40 fglock "svk up" gives no errors, but "svk up -s" does
17:48 pmurias fglock: did you fix it?
17:49 fglock no
17:53 pmurias fglock: i don't think i can help with that :(
17:54 fglock pmurias: np, that's not my main devel machine
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17:57 Tene "}\nelse {" is recommended in PBP as I recall.
17:57 PerlJam cuddled elsed are frowned upon, yes.
17:58 * pmurias is suprised
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18:02 Juerd Frowned upon even.
18:02 Juerd Interesting
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