Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-11-21

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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07:03 * araujo reading PP
07:03 araujo TimToady, bunch of good quotes there
07:03 araujo :-)
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09:16 rafl obra: pong
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11:40 achilles14 hi all, I am new to parrot. how to complie perl6 script to parrot bytecode?
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11:44 achilles14 which command to use to compile script into parrot bytecode?
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13:08 ludan hi
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16:20 obra hey rafl. one of my minions has been hacking Net::SSLeay for segfaults we're hitting in prod. I was curious if his patch (on rt.cpan) looked sane
16:21 rafl obra: I didn't have a chance to give ssleay some love recently. you could ask mikem@cpan.org, the co-maintainer.
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16:22 obra ok. will do. thanks
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16:43 dlocaus Hi everyone! :)
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18:10 fglock dlocaus: hi :)
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18:12 fglock I went to Tomar (Portugal) to give a talk on Perl, not much hacking today
18:12 fglock I rewrote the .BIND code yesterday, but it still has some errors
18:12 dlocaus cool
18:13 fglock I guess I'll move the failing tests to t/todo/ and commit
18:13 dlocaus make forcerecompile; make test; breaks the current code
18:13 fglock hmm
18:13 dlocaus I'm trying to find the revision that broke it
18:13 fglock looking
18:13 dlocaus its either dlo or pmurius that broke it
18:14 fglock not necessarily :P
18:14 pasteling "dlocaus" at 63.192.210.11 pasted "hunting down bad commit" (74 lines, 2.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/28757
18:15 dlocaus fglock: I was wondering, since we have a good working test case (0 errors), could we convince lambabot to do a "make forcerecompile; make test" after every commit?
18:15 dlocaus after the shell script btw, is some "workspace"
18:17 fglock or, we could have a dedicated bot to do that and then make a smoke report
18:17 fglock we can even reuse the pugs infrastructure
18:17 fglock but I don't know much about how the pugs smoke works
18:17 fglock still compiling...
18:17 dlocaus agh! I'm the guilty party
18:19 fglock "guilty partly" - collaborative work++
18:19 dlocaus 18886
18:19 dlocaus that's the bad revision
18:19 dlocaus oh wait a minute, that's not me.
18:20 dlocaus http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18886
18:21 fglock about my talk, people are much interested in the Perl 6 multi processor capabilities
18:21 pasteling "dlocaus" at 63.192.210.11 pasted "Revision 18886 broke the test cases when doing a forcerecompile" (53 lines, 2.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/28758
18:22 fglock and the thing they want most is an IDE with some kind of "best practices" plugin
18:23 dlocaus Who is "they"?  One of the things I REALLY hate is when my IDE (ultraedit) attempts to correct my perl.  It drives me nuts.
18:23 dlocaus (auto-correct keywords).
18:24 dlocaus Don Canonway's PBP?
18:24 fglock it's a university audience, this what they expect from a "first language"
18:24 dlocaus or by best practices do you mean Perl::Critic?
18:24 fglock they want a limited syntax
18:25 fglock which is possible with Perl 6
18:25 dlocaus a limited syntax?
18:25 fglock like, just one way to do each thing
18:25 fglock but this is just for beginners
18:26 dlocaus oh I see.
18:26 fglock they do want all the other things, later
18:26 fglock and a nice beautiful colorful IDE
18:26 fglock :)
18:27 dlocaus It is an interesting question... do it 1 way (java) or DWIW (perl)
18:28 dlocaus fglock: how do I got about reverting out pmurias's changes?
18:29 dlocaus Should I inform him and wait for a reply?  and if he doesn't respond "reasonbly" soon, just do it and @tell him?
18:29 dlocaus pmurias: ping?
18:30 dlocaus pmurias: ping?
18:30 fglock dlocaus: what kind of changes? if you are fixing a mistake, just do it
18:30 dlocaus fglock: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18886
18:30 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18886 - Pugs - Trac
18:30 dlocaus If I knew it was a mistake I would do it.
18:30 fglock my local copy is doing an infinite loop after make forcerecompile - I guess I'll not commit
18:30 fglock looking
18:31 dlocaus But I'm really just acting the part of a machine.  Do a binary search, find out which commit broke the code, revert that code.
18:32 dlocaus and I didn't even have the good graces to do a binary search, I only did part of one.
18:32 fglock dlocaus: if you find out that the deleted code was necessary, I think it's better to add a test to demonstrate the need
18:32 fglock than just put the code back
18:32 dlocaus fglock: I would, if I knew what was going on.
18:33 dlocaus I'm only good enough (right now) to know that the code broke the test cases.
18:33 fglock this code is working around a grammar bug:
18:33 fglock the grammar thinks 'self' is actually 'self()'
18:34 fglock so it parses to self.APPLY
18:34 fglock that code reverts that at the emitter
18:34 dlocaus fglock: this part?  src/KindaPerl6/Ast.pm
18:35 dlocaus oh, wait, nm
18:35 fglock dlocaus: it's fixable at Grammar::Term
18:36 dlocaus fglock: could you please fix it?  I do not think I have the skills (yet) to fix it.
18:36 fglock but the workaround is ok for now, since all the grammar will be rewritten anyway
18:36 dlocaus workaround?  but the test cases break
18:37 fglock ok
18:37 fglock you mean, the tests break because the workaround was removed?
18:38 dlocaus well, when pmurias removed the code, the test cases broke.
18:38 dlocaus removed the code in 18886
18:38 dlocaus yeah.. that's what I mean.
18:39 fglock you can just paste the code back
18:39 dlocaus ok
18:39 fglock and add a comment explaining the workaround
18:40 dlocaus humm ok.
18:40 fglock recompiling...
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18:41 fglock we do need a fast compiler
18:41 dlocaus :)
18:42 dlocaus You know, I was thinking about the _isa, and I was wondering if it would be possible to write some sort of "compression" hack, that would check out an ::DISPATCH mess, and then compress it.
18:42 dlocaus something to "flatten" it.
18:42 fglock the thing the audience liked most today was: time perl -e ' print "hello, World\n" '
18:42 dlocaus oh, you know I came across something interesting about perl
18:42 fglock dlocaus: yes, it's possible
18:42 dlocaus perl '' test.pl
18:43 fglock it's a method cache, I think perl5 implements it
18:43 dlocaus forces perl to read from the source code from STDIN and not from test.pl
18:43 dlocaus I've been wondering if I should make of note of that to the perl5.10 people to see if it should be fixed 5.10?
18:43 fglock heh
18:44 fglock dlocaus: do you believe it's an error?
18:45 dlocaus well, it is a bit odd.  On one side of the coin, its not expected behavior.
18:45 dlocaus on the other hand, it was caused/found by ahemm.. you.
18:45 fglock the problem with the flatten hack, is that we have "open" classes, so you need to track when a class is changed and recalculate the objects
18:46 dlocaus using TAP::Harness (Test::Harness 3.0) it called an open3 call, which when given an empty $extra_lib string in script/run_tests.pl caused the end arguments passed to perl to be "perl '' test.pl"
18:46 fglock :)
18:46 dlocaus when the invocation could have been "perl -I(libs) test.pl"
18:46 dlocaus so, I'm not sure if it is a bug or not, but definitely unexpected.
18:48 dlocaus I've been thinking about checking out 5.10 and seeing what changes need to be done to get kp6 working on it.
18:48 dlocaus It would be good for the community... :)
18:48 fglock interesting bug, but I think it it's more like an "undocumented behaviour"
18:48 fglock sure it would
18:48 dlocaus :)
18:49 dlocaus I'll see if this bug works on perl5.10 and if it does, I'll send in a note to the development team about it.
18:50 fglock I don't think 5.10 will help much with kp6, because the kp6 runtime is so "low level"
18:50 fglock it mostly just uses array, hash, and closure - none of the 5.10 cool hacks
18:52 dlocaus well, it will be a good test to do, just to "make sure".
18:52 fglock dlocaus: make forcerecompile / make test - passes all tests here
18:52 dlocaus on 18890?
18:53 dlocaus or after you add the hack back in?
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18:54 fglock without modifications - but I'm compiling again
18:54 fglock ah - a second compilation fails
18:55 fglock I'll try with the 'self' thing now
18:58 fglock re second compilation, maybe the Makefile is compiling the Runtime::Perl6 stuff before recompiling kp6 proper
18:58 dlocaus I've always had grief with the Makefile...
18:59 dlocaus esp. that make -j option.
18:59 dlocaus :)
19:00 fglock I've only 10min left - compilation eats a lot of battery :P
19:00 dlocaus :(
19:01 dlocaus feel free to commit, I'll update and run cmds for you.
19:01 fglock k
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19:03 dlocaus I undid pmurias 18886 and put it in the 18890 revision, but there was massive breakage
19:04 dlocaus @seen pmurias
19:04 lambdabot pmurias is in #perl6. I don't know when pmurias last spoke.
19:05 fglock I committed 18891, but I'm still testing it
19:05 fglock now recompiling the Perl6 modules...
19:07 fglock dlocaus: looks good here - I'm committing the recompiled modules
19:07 dlocaus ok
19:07 fglock done - 18892
19:08 dlocaus if it passes on my side, I'll annotate the re-hack
19:09 dlocaus if you don't mind my asking, how are you running out of battery, but still web-enabled?
19:09 fglock 7min battery - bye bye :)
19:09 fglock 1st class trains have 220V power plugs
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19:09 fglock this is the cheap one :)
19:09 dlocaus if you are on a train, how can you be internet connected?
19:09 dlocaus does the train have WIFI?
19:10 fglock I've got mobile internet (hsdpa modem)
19:10 dlocaus oh... neat :)
19:10 fglock very neat :)
19:11 fglock did it work?
19:11 dlocaus 3.2GHZ amd is only so fast.... :(
19:12 dlocaus I've gotten to the mp6.pl part now
19:12 fglock I've reverted my local changes - I need to split BIND into small refactorings
19:12 fglock .BIND is everywhere in the code
19:13 dlocaus while forloops and such may be great for the mutli-cpu stuff, I wonder how the parrot people will handle it
19:13 dlocaus it apperas to work, the snaity tests came back ok
19:13 dlocaus !yea!
19:13 * avar wonders how kp6 is doing these days
19:13 fglock avar: I'm working on the bootstrap,
19:13 * dlocaus is doing janitorial duties, so it looks much better :)
19:14 avar fglock: :)
19:14 fglock which means to fix several workarounds
19:14 * dlocaus is about to try and re-straighten out the perltidy -st option.
19:14 fglock which work in Perl5, but break in Perl6
19:14 dlocaus All tests successful.
19:14 dlocaus Files=85, Tests=200, 81 wallclock secs ( 0.25 usr  0.08 sys + 74.72 cusr  3.78 csys = 78.83 CPU)
19:14 dlocaus Result: PASS
19:14 fglock dlocaus++
19:15 fglock avar: I rewrote much of the container code, including hash and array
19:15 fglock 1min!
19:15 * dlocaus says a prayer for fglock's battery...
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19:20 * dlocaus thinks his prayer worked...
19:20 avar billions of people worldwide share your little fallacy:)
19:21 * avar waits for bootstrap to try lisp emitting again
19:21 dlocaus avar: :)
19:22 dlocaus avar: well, it makes for an interesting test case.  perl -e ' print "1..1\nok\n" prayer.pl
19:23 avar You can test whether the system runs but not whether all the lights are on?:)
19:23 dlocaus with todays webcams that shouldn't be a problem :)
19:23 dlocaus I wonder if I could patent that?
19:23 dlocaus Using a webcam to monitor blinking lights?
19:24 dlocaus if image.x.y = red then warn "oppps!"
19:25 dlocaus I hope that line of code did not just eliminate someone's job.
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19:32 Limbic_Region salutations all
19:32 * dlocaus waves
19:39 pmurias dlocaus: ping
19:39 pmurias well pong
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19:42 dlocaus pmurias: hiya
19:42 pmurias hi
19:43 dlocaus pmurias: I just wanted to let you know that fglock and I put back in some code you removed
19:43 dlocaus commits 18891-18893 : http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/18893
19:43 lambdabot Title: Changeset 18893 - Pugs - Trac
19:43 pmurias seen it
19:43 dlocaus ok. that's it.
19:45 pmurias the hack i removed $.code has a .name which is not always the case
19:46 dlocaus pmurias: I'm sorry, I'm not that far along in knowing how kp6 works, to understand what you said.
19:47 pmurias sorry
19:47 pmurias i meant to type the hack i removed assumed
19:47 pmurias that
19:48 pmurias $.code being the code attribiute of Apply
19:48 pmurias which is assumed by the hack to be a Var
19:49 pmurias is it now clearer ? ;)
19:49 dlocaus yeah, self vs self()
19:49 dlocaus yes.
19:50 pmurias more like foo() vs $hash<key>.()
19:50 dlocaus I don't even understand perl6 all that well... ;)
19:52 pmurias foo() vs ($hash->{key})->() in perl5 terms ;)
19:52 dlocaus yep! I got that.
19:52 pmurias althought the later gets turned into a Call in kp6
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19:54 pmurias Apply could be replaced by Call, as it's just the case with method attribiute being 'postcircumfix:<( )>'
19:55 pmurias dlocaus: if you want a refactoring task you could do it
19:55 dlocaus Right now, I want to streighten out the util/perltidyrc which forces an "-st" # output to stdout
19:56 pmurias ok
19:56 dlocaus I'm also looking at the cost of doing perltidy.
19:56 pmurias it's significant ;)
19:57 dlocaus Yes, I'm thinking it might be worhtwhile to put an in ENV{ kp6perltidy } to turn it on or off.
19:57 dlocaus I'm running a test now..
19:58 dlocaus not to mention, I think putting -st in perltidyrc is bad practice.. since it forces output to stdout, and prevents usage of -o and -b.
19:58 pmurias you can change it
19:58 dlocaus yes, but then the code in script/kp6, script/mp6 and Makefile all use it.
19:58 pmurias the is a CLI option to kp6 for not using perltidy
19:58 dlocaus yes.
19:58 dlocaus I thought I'd run a test.. ah
19:58 dlocaus its done, one second
20:00 dlocaus by wall clock seconds...
20:00 dlocaus Running: make forcerecompile ; make test  W/O perltidy
20:00 dlocaus costs: 4m and 14seconds
20:00 dlocaus Running: make forcerecompile ; make test  W/ perltidy
20:00 dlocaus costs: 5m and 28seconds
20:00 dlocaus a difference of 102 seconds or about 1minutes and 42 seconds.
20:01 dlocaus Assuming a developer forcerecompiles as a test 10 times a day, that's 20 minutes
20:02 dlocaus or assuming there are 5 developers who forcerecompiles 10 times a day that is a loss of 85 minutes of developer time
20:03 dlocaus pmurias: do you think it is worth putting in a on/off global perltidy switch?
20:03 pmurias i don't know
20:03 dlocaus ok, well, I'll let it be then for now.
20:04 dlocaus if someone else has a thought on this, then they can @tell dlocaus "message" me.
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Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo