Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-11-30

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:28 neuromu hi everyone. i'm sure this is common knowledge already, but i'm new to pugs and perl6. make smoke is not creating a smoke.html with latest revision from svn.
00:31 neuromu I get an error referencing YAML in the perl distribution I'm using, something about a malformed UTF-8 char.
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00:38 TimToady let me guess, you're running 5.10 like me, 'cuz I get the same error
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00:47 kst dlocaus: Um, I think you mean "throttle".
00:47 kst dlocaus: Never mind, I just realized I'm responding to something from about 3 hours ago.
00:50 neuromu 5.8.8
00:55 neuromu Is there still a need for more help on developing perl 6/pugs?
00:57 neuromu if so, i'd really like to help, i've been in awe of this project watching from the outside off and on for about a year and a half now
00:57 neuromu my email is jmacclure@gmail.com
00:58 Tene neuromu: kp6 and parrot are where the most is happening right now. :)
01:02 neuromu Tene: thanks. Is there a plan to write a C implementation for Perl 6?
01:02 neuromu Or is that Parrot...
01:02 Tene neuromu: That's Parrot.
01:03 [particle] neuromu: we can start by giving you a pugs commit bit, so i've sent you an invitation
01:04 neuromu [particle] -> thank you.
01:04 [particle] neuromu: there's parrot, a c-based vm for perl6 and other dynamic languages, and there's yap6 (sp?) which is a c port of fglock's kp6 (kindaperl 6)
01:04 [particle] those are the two c-based implementations underway
01:10 [particle] neuromu: typically new committers add their name to CREDITS to test out their bit
01:10 neuromu I can't seem to find the yap6 description anywhere...
01:11 [particle] look under the v6/ dir
01:11 [particle] i've been away for a month, so i don't know the latest info
01:11 [particle] if you're interested in c programming, parrot could use your help
01:12 TimToady s/CREDITS/AUTHORS/ # a forgivable slip twixt parrot and pugs
01:12 [particle] ah, thanks
01:13 neuromu heck yeah im interested in c programming
01:14 neuromu so add my name to AUTHORS?
01:14 TimToady *nod*
01:20 pugs_svn r18985 | neuromu++ | Added name to AUTHORS
01:21 neuromu done
01:26 Tene neuromu: irc.perl.org #parrot is the main parrot channel
01:27 pugs_svn r18986 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] allow both List and Array in the AST
01:27 [particle] we're on #parrot now looking at what seems to be a bug involving ccache :/
01:28 * [particle] heads off to soccer with cheese
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02:35 neuromu I'm sorry, one last question. So out of the 3 projects pugs, parrot, and yap6, the project with the most need for developers is parrot?
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04:07 araujo neuromu, all of them i think
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07:00 PerlJam "most need of developers"?
07:03 spinclad pugs *most* needs developers, to revive it ... a new batch of lambdacamels, new OO model, new AST, interface with KP6 and NQP ...
07:03 spinclad the others are active and can best *use* developers right off.
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08:48 pugs_svn r18987 | pmurias++ | referenced misc/grammar_17_15_bug_ilustration.t - in the revelant TODO item
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10:30 Aankh|Clone Ugh.  I can't believe the "xml and perl 6" thread is still going strong, and with a completely different topic now.
10:32 moritz_ I think the "core" topic has to be discussed once a year to stay fresh in everybody's mind ;)
10:32 Aankh|Clone Hehe.
10:33 Aankh|Clone Yay, my much delayed lunch is finally here.
10:34 Aankh|Clone Oh, whoops.
10:34 Aankhen`` That's better.
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11:10 pugs_svn r18988 | fglock++ | [kp6] cleanups
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11:26 pugs_svn r18989 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] updated image
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12:04 pugs_svn r18990 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] some fixes in Match.pm
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12:12 pmurias fglock: why is Perl5::Match used instead of Perl6::Match?
12:12 fglock pmurias: because I'm using the perl5rx backend, which is Perl 5
12:13 fglock lib5regex/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/Match.pm
12:18 pugs_svn r18991 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5] MOP - improved the default ".perl" a bit
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12:23 fglock there is some problem with the Object.perl attribute list when running t-bootstrap/02-grammar.t - attributes don't show up
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12:28 pmurias fglock: looking
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12:30 fglock Val::Int.new() should be: Val::Int.new(int => ...)
12:30 pmurias *** Could not load runtime class Range: Can't locate KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/Range.pm
12:31 fglock are you running this? perl t-bootstrap/02-grammar.t
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12:31 pmurias yes
12:32 pmurias fglock: the test continues to run
12:32 fglock pmurias: fixed
12:32 pugs_svn r18992 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] added KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/Range.pm
12:33 damianc hello
12:33 moritz_ hi damianc, hi all ;)
12:33 damianc hi moritz_!
12:34 fglock hi
12:34 moritz_ how do I build and test kp6-kp6?
12:34 moritz_ I dimly remeber it's some env variable
12:35 fglock KP6_TARGET=KP6-BOOT perl Makefile.PL
12:35 moritz_ ah, I see... it's even documented ;)
12:35 fglock but it's pre-built
12:38 moritz_ and how to run the test suite?
12:39 fglock it can't run the normal tests yet, but you can run things in 'perl t-bootstrap/..."
12:40 moritz_ ah, they are perl5 scripts
12:40 fglock still debugging the grammar
12:41 fglock but this almost works: perl -I compiled/perl5-kp6-kp6/lib script/kp6-kp6.pl  <<< ' 1 '
12:42 fglock see src-script/kp6-kp6.pl
12:44 pmurias fglock: this error also confuses me
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12:46 fglock pmurias: you mean the attributes problem?
12:47 pmurias yes
12:51 pmurias fglock: the attribiute isn't added to the class
12:51 pmurias vim is sloow on large file :(
12:51 fglock I'm adding a .HOW.attributes method, to help debugging
12:53 pmurias fglock: did you load KindaPerl6::Ast?
12:53 fglock looking :)
12:54 pmurias it works if i add "use KindaPerl6::Ast"
12:54 fglock pmurias: thanks - it worked :)
12:57 * pmurias is supposed to be debugging something else right now&
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13:05 pugs_svn r18993 | fglock++ | [kp6] MOP - added Class.get_attributes()
13:10 pmurias fglock: isn't it speced to be an .attributes method?
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13:10 fglock pmurias: hmm - I didn't look
13:10 moritz_ pugs: <foo bar>.HOW.methods
13:10 pmurias S12
13:10 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such method in class Class: "&methods"␤    at /tmp/KKjmqYIbKq line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
13:11 moritz_ pugs: <foo bar>.HOW
13:11 exp_evalbot RESULT[\Class.new(("is" => ("Lazy",)), ("name" => "Array"))␤]
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13:12 moritz_ pugs: <foo bar>.HOW.attributes
13:12 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such method in class Class: "&attributes"␤    at /tmp/dcLwNcGz0W line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
13:12 moritz_ it's .attributes according to S12, yes
13:12 moritz_ "The .attributes method returns a list of attribute descriptors that have traits like these"
13:13 pugs_svn r18994 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5] improved Object.perl
13:13 pmurias Perl6::Attribute alread exists
13:13 pmurias * already
13:18 fglock kp6: class X { has $.x }; my $x = X.new(x=>3);  say $x.perl
13:18 exp_evalbot r18994: OUTPUT[Out of memory!␤]
13:19 pugs_svn r18995 | fglock++ | [kp6] recompiled
13:19 fglock kp6: class X { has $.x }; my $x = X.new(x=>3);  say $x.perl
13:19 exp_evalbot r18994: OUTPUT[Out of memory!␤]
13:20 fglock lunch &
13:20 * moritz_ looks up evalbot's memory limit
13:21 moritz_ 80MB/100MB
13:22 pugs_svn r18996 | moritz++ | [evalbot] increased memory limit
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13:22 moritz_ kp6: class X { has $.x }; my $x = X.new(x=>3);  say $x.perl
13:22 exp_evalbot r18995: OUTPUT[X.new(x => 3)␤]
13:23 pmurias moritz_: it's ?/? ?
13:24 moritz_ pmurias: RLIMIT_VMEM takes two numbers, I don't know exactly what they mean
13:24 moritz_ from BSD::Resource, that is
13:25 moritz_ I've bumped them to 180MB / 200MB, now it works ;)
13:25 pmurias moritz_: thanks
13:26 masak a bit unsettling that instantiating a class takes 180 MB... :)
13:26 moritz_ masak: you know what they say about premature optimization... ;)
13:27 moritz_ and there has to be a reason for my laptop having 3GB ram ;)
13:28 masak heh
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13:44 moritz_ is there a separate hash context in Perl 6?
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15:05 pugs_svn r18997 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5] fix last commits (.attributes was already there)
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16:13 pugs_svn r18998 | pmurias++ | [kp6] the begining of a perl6 version of the test
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16:50 Juerd http://agentzh.org/misc/tracer/digits/index.html
16:50 Juerd Very impressive!
16:50 lambdabot Title: Test
16:50 Juerd agentzh++
16:51 masak yes, that one is very cool
16:51 masak agentzh++
16:51 Juerd Some perl -Mre=debug alike output would be cool too
16:53 Juerd I know that a lot of work is being done on Perl 6, but the things that I can *see* (e.g. in a browser) always impress me most.
16:57 TimToady moritz_: there isn't really a hash context; pairs don't decide how to behave until they get bound or assigned, so list context generally suffices (of course there's a referential context that expects a hash object/role, but that's just a type)
16:57 moritz_ TimToady: ok, thanks
16:57 moritz_ the question came up on #perlde, someone sugested a DBI like interface with a magic "fetch" method
16:58 moritz_ where %a = $sth->fetch returns a hash, @a = $sth->fetch a list, and $a = $sth->fetch an array ref
16:58 moritz_ and afaict the first two can't be distinguished in perl 5
17:00 Tene TimToady: There's concern expressed in the log of the phone conference about your hardware.  You need new hardware?
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17:03 TimToady Tene: just my laptop is starting to go gimpy in spots, none of which are quite showstopping, like the cd reader keeps ejecting by itself.  :)
17:04 Tene Heh.  Mine does that too.
17:04 rgs TimToady: I've that question about ~~ in Perl 5
17:04 rgs just to be sure
17:04 rgs before we're stuck with it forever
17:04 TimToady and I've got a bizillion messages saying hub 1-0:1.0: over-current change on port 3
17:05 Juerd moritz_: Why would $a = $sth->fetch do an arrayref, not a hashref? And why are you calling it a ref? :)
17:05 TimToady and the space bar doesn't work some of the time when I push it with my right thumb
17:05 Tene USB on my laptop is too flaky to use at high-speed, so I always rmmod ehci_hcd when I need to use it.
17:05 TimToady rgs: what's the Q?
17:05 rgs have you tried compressed air ? (for the laptop)
17:06 rgs and the real question is : @a ~~ %h means that at least one element of @a is a key in %h ?
17:06 rgs (as opposed as "all elements of @a")
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17:07 Tene TimToady: You also have tendonitis issues or some such, yes?
17:07 moritz_ Juerd: convenience ;)
17:07 TimToady S03 sez:
17:07 TimToady Array     Hash      hash slice existence    X.contains(any @$_)
17:08 rgs yup
17:08 moritz_ which means "one common item", right?
17:08 moritz_ that is, "at least one common item"
17:08 rgs that's what I think
17:08 rgs but I'm not an expert in exegesis
17:09 moritz_ TimToady: Hash has no method "contains", according to S29, so it must be some kind of meta syntax
17:09 TimToady yes, only one item needs to match
17:09 rgs thanks! then all is fine in P5.
17:09 TimToady and .contains is a key match
17:09 TimToady not a val match
17:10 TimToady P6 kind of views hashes as sets with an associated piece of data called the value
17:12 TimToady Tene: yeah, my shoulder biceps tendons don't like to be used quite as much as I use 'em.
17:13 TimToady and I've been having trouble sleeping because of it, which greatly reduces my productivity
17:13 TimToady but I think I'm getting better, except when I don't think that...
17:13 Tene TimToady: want I should buy you a nicer external keyboard?  Christmas time and all.
17:14 TimToady doesn't seem to correlate with keyboard use, more with heavy lifting and pushing the car door open and such
17:15 TimToady and I've got lots of keyboards sitting around  :)
17:15 Tene I figured that was probably the case, but most of my spare keyboards are spare because they're a pain to type on.
17:15 Tene Seems to be a common attribute of spare keyboards. ;)
17:16 TimToady most of mine are spare because the new computer came with a new one, and with four kids you end up with lots of new computers periodically
17:16 TimToady and keyboards are the easiest thing to scavenge from an old computer
17:17 [particle1 at least you have other people to do the heavy lifting for perl 6
17:18 TimToady sure, but that's kind of like ants trying to decide which way to push the huge crumb :)
17:19 Tene Work threw more money at me recently, and hardware is an easy donation.
17:20 [particle] how 'bout a right-handed dvorak keyboard
17:22 TimToady hmm, my sister-in-law just had new hardware installed in her shoulder...
17:22 Tene bbl
17:22 [particle] i can get you the joint itself at wholesale, but i can't get you a discount on labor
17:23 TimToady can you do it on a volunteer basis?
17:23 TimToady I'll bet TPF would give you a tax writeoff for it...
17:24 [particle] tempting
17:25 [particle] besides, what could happen?
17:32 dlocaus joined #perl6
17:32 * dlocaus hi!
17:33 moritz_ hola!
17:40 araujo hola!
17:42 dlocaus :)
17:45 pugs_svn r18999 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] Match.to was not set inside a code-block
17:46 moritz_ perl t-bootstrap/02-grammar.t
17:46 moritz_ Can't locate KindaPerl6/AST.pm in @INC
17:46 moritz_ find -name AST.pm|wc -l
17:46 moritz_ 0
17:46 fglock moritz_: fixing
17:48 fglock hmm - looks ok, here
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17:49 moritz_ fglock: where is your AST.pm?
17:50 fglock t-bootstrap uses this one: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-KindaPerl6​/compiled/perl5-kp6-kp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Ast.pm
17:50 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/3d3sas
17:51 moritz_ ah, that's Ast.pm, not AST.pm
17:52 fglock please fix it if possible, I'm on os/x and it doesn't care :(
17:53 pugs_svn r19000 | moritz++ | [kp6] fixed include in t-bootstrap/02-grammar.t
17:53 moritz_ Committed revision 19000.
17:53 moritz_ it dies with a segfault, but at least it compiles
17:54 moritz_ (case insenstive file systems)--
17:54 ruoso dlocaus, fglock told me you're interested in yap6
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17:57 fglock moritz_: which perl5 do you use?
17:57 moritz_ fglock: 5.8.8
17:58 fglock a segfault in a perl5 regex can make this regex engine unusable
17:58 * moritz_ installs 5.10
17:58 fglock it abuses a little on regexes
17:59 fglock I'm running 5.8.8
17:59 moritz_ with 5.10: # Can't use an undefined value as a SCALAR reference at compiled/perl5-kp6-kp6/lib/Kin​daPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/Match.pm line 54.
17:59 moritz_ at the same plase where 5.8.8 dies with a segfault
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17:59 moritz_ s/plase/place/
18:01 pmurias there are no segfaults here, but test 2 and 3 fail
18:01 moritz_ seems to be an issue with debian's perl
18:01 fglock pmurias: that's ok - but a segfault is way hard to fix
18:01 pmurias moritz_: you use perl t-bootstrap/02-grammar.t ?
18:02 moritz_ pmurias: aye
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18:04 moritz_ I just checked out a fresh copy of kp6 to ensure it's not a tainted checkout... still the same behaviour
18:04 fglock hmm - there is an eval-block in that place - I'll try to remove it
18:05 fglock the segfault might be caused by an error in the exception handler
18:06 dlocaus ruoso: I think that may have been a mis-understanding
18:07 dlocaus ruoso: I don't have a lot of time to "share", right now I have time for 1.5 volunteer projects, and kp6 + another are already taking up a lot of my time :)
18:07 dlocaus ruoso: sorry about the late response, I was moving my car for street cleaning
18:07 pmurias dlocaus: what's the "other" project? ;)
18:07 dlocaus A non profit wants me to help rebuild their website.
18:08 pmurias dlocaus: dosn't the street cleaning get annoying?
18:08 dlocaus I really hate working for free, for people who get paid.  For some reason the value of my time drops to "negative numbers"
18:08 pugs_svn r19001 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] minor change trying to avoid an exception
18:08 dlocaus pmurias: yes, the street cleaning does get annoying, but its considerably less annoying than all the other idiot legislation and laws passed by local, state, and federal government.
18:09 moritz_ fglock: no change hehe, still segfault
18:09 moritz_ fglock: and don't take my "in the same place" too serious
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18:09 fglock moritz_: ok
18:09 moritz_ fglock: the error message appeared in the same place, that doesn't mean the failure was in the same place
18:09 dlocaus In the state of califonria, to make a left turn (drivers drive on the right side of the road), it is illegal to go "partially" out into the intersection before you make a left turn.  Ergo, it is no almost impossible to make a left turn.  We can blame Jackie Spier for that.
18:10 fglock I'll try it out on a new 5.10 install
18:10 dlocaus I could go on for a couple more hours, but I'll spare you. ;)
18:10 * moritz_ doesn't understand why USA's laws are so much fractured
18:11 dlocaus moritz_: responding in a private irc window
18:11 moritz_ nor why any sane country would allow local laws to override country scale law ;)
18:16 fglock the devel version in cpan is 5.9.5, dated 7/19/07 - is this correct?
18:17 dlocaus no
18:17 dlocaus 5.10.rc 2 is out
18:17 fglock have a link?
18:17 dlocaus one second
18:17 moritz_ fglock: just use the latest blead: http://dev.perl.org/perl5/source.html
18:17 lambdabot Title: Getting and Working With the Perl Source - perl5
18:17 fglock dev.perl.org doesn't help
18:17 fglock looking
18:18 dlocaus http://perlbuzz.com/2007/11/one-ste​p-closer-perl-5100-rc2-is-out.html
18:18 lambdabot Title: One step closer: Perl 5.10.0 RC2 is out - Perl Buzz, http://tinyurl.com/2n2qez
18:18 dlocaus first link first paragraph
18:21 fglock thanks
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18:25 pmurias fglock: wouldn it be better/cleaner to change Emit::Perl5Regex to use Perl6::Match?
18:25 justatheory_ joined #perl6
18:27 pmurias * wouldn't
18:27 fglock pmurias: I'm still debugging the perl5rx backend, specially " from_global_data() "
18:28 fglock we can split the Perl 5 specifics to a separate module later
18:29 fglock that is, if the segfault can be fixed
18:29 pmurias fglock: do you get the segfault?
18:30 fglock no, it works here - I'm now installing 5.10
18:30 moritz_ it works on a different debian maschine for me
18:30 moritz_ so not sure where my problem is, actually
18:30 damianc now whats an automation for provisioning?
18:33 pmurias damianc: what's the context?
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18:34 fglock moritz_: nice to know :)
18:34 damianc something for a DC frontend?
18:34 * moritz_ understands nothing
18:35 * damianc feels stupid
18:47 fglock brb
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