Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-12-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady there are two competing subcultures here that come up with different answers to the question, "Is an unknown contributor more likely to help us or hurt us?"
00:01 TimToady also, it's not clear whether the "right" answer to that changes over time, and if so, whether the answer has changed yet.
00:02 TimToady the answer also depends on how you view licensing and copyright control
00:04 mncharity the "is there a wiki?" question was triggered by an old item on my infinite todo list, triggered by the Container paragraph in S10.  basically, the Snn have a shape that doesn't fit well inside my head.  so I've long considered spending a few days stuffing the Snn into my head, and holding them long enough to dump them in a shape which fits my head better.
00:04 mncharity re wiki, there's another factor,
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00:06 mncharity wikis are under active spam threat.  you need to have enough of a critical mass community to keep it under control.  if you don't, the wiki melts down.  p.n.a is critical mass, pf.o isnt yet.
00:09 mncharity re Container, I'd love if someone did a more "Perl 6 - a reference manual" style presentation.  Eg, Namespaces, Names, Containers, Variables, Types, etc.  I find Snn ok as reference when I already understand something, but as having a very high barrier to entry when I don't.
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00:10 mncharity as there are core ideas, with scattered incremental descriptions (without crossrefs).  eg, Containers.]
00:10 mncharity hi stevan_
00:14 mncharity Sigh.  Speaking about subcritical mass wikis, one which was created because the oz/mozart language had similar documentation issues, and thus need a single integrated "virtual reference manual", implemented as a table of contents to the scattered parts,... I guess I know what I'm doing this evening... fixing a smashed wiki. :/
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00:51 mncharity eh, not so bad.  back up.  http://www.vendian.org/oz/wiki/index.cgi?VirtualManual
00:51 lambdabot Title: Unofficial Mozart/Oz Wiki: VirtualManual
00:56 jjore-m Neat. I like Mozart/Oz and would like to use it in my perl one day.
00:57 jjore-m Or use Perl in my Mozart/Oz.
00:57 jjore-m Whatever.
00:59 mncharity :)
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02:44 jmacclure quick question: how does one become a known contributer?
02:45 jmacclure besides the obvious, of course. I'm referring to TimToady-sama's original comment...
03:15 mncharity jmacclure: re 'known contributor, original comment', you mean about wikis?
03:15 mncharity actually, have to run.  bbl &
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03:30 jmacclure I thought he was talking in general re: perl6
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03:54 mncharity jmacclure: well, the discussion context was the different policies of http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6 and http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi towards anonymous edits.  Pugs is certainly also more open than many other software projects, and the licensing/copyright issues apply there too, so it could have been a more general observation as well.
03:54 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - PerlNet
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06:16 mncharity TimToady: Is there a dual of CANDO, to intercept bindings?  "DO!()"? :)
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06:25 mncharity Hmm, and actually, CANDO only applies to packages/modules/classes and such.  For intercepting lexical lookup, it doesn't help, no?  So to MOPify lookup, we're back to a MOPmumble::mumble_lookup() macro (or usually-optimized-away multi I suppose), which calls CANDO for the package portion of resolution.  yes?
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06:33 TimToady CANDO is for emulating missing declarations.  there's no reason a lexical scope can't just use a real declaration.  and grammar rules reductions can call out to whereever they like in any case.
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07:35 moritz_ CANDO sounds like a nuclear reactor to me ;) (close to CANDU)
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08:49 agentz1 one of my friends has hacked out a miniSQL parser using PCR: http://svn.openfoundry.org/openapi/trunk/minisql/lib/OpenAPI/miniSQL.pm
08:49 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/yw8dyu
08:50 agentz1 we'll use it as part of our yahoo cn's web service API :)
08:50 moritz_ cool ;)
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08:50 agentz1 moritz_: :)
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10:50 pugs_svn r19024 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] t-bootstrap/02-grammar.p6 fixed semicolons
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11:44 pugs_svn r19025 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] add some indentation when emitting
11:56 pugs_svn r19026 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] fixed last commit
12:02 fglock agentz1.friend++
12:03 agentz1 fglock: :)
12:04 agentz1 fglock: maybe the p5rx emitter is even more production friendly?
12:04 fglock agentz1: I've been using v6.pm for production,
12:05 fglock it actually parses the code inside code blocks, instead of using a source filter
12:05 agentz1 fglock: heh. our environment is *very* busy ;)
12:05 agentz1 fglock: v6.pm's code quality makes me a bit worried ;)
12:05 fglock the .pmc files help a lot
12:05 fglock yes, I know :P
12:06 fglock we are using Perl 6 for the grammars, and Perl 5 for the remaining code
12:06 agentz1 *nod*
12:06 fglock I'm now working on an MDX parser, which is a variation of SQL
12:07 agentz1 sorry, gotta run for supper...already extremely hungry atm ;)
12:07 agentz1 MDX?
12:07 agentz1 interesting
12:07 fglock multi dimensional database
12:07 agentz1 ah
12:07 fglock ok :)
12:07 agentz1 okay, later...gotta run...&
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12:26 pugs_svn r19027 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] improved Match.perl5
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12:46 pugs_svn r19028 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] deep Match.perl
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14:47 pugs_svn r19029 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] Visitor::RegexCapture is buggy - moved away for now
14:58 pugs_svn r19030 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] t-bootstrap/02-grammar.p6 passes test #6
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15:18 nothingmuch [particle]: moose?
15:19 [particle] hola!
15:32 pugs_svn r19031 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5] most library loading moved to Runtime::Perl5::Runtime
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15:47 pugs_svn r19032 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] fixed uninitialized Code
15:56 pugs_svn r19033 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] more mp6/kp6/perl5 bridge code
16:02 ferreira I have a minor patch for pugs Makefile.PL. Where should I submit it?
16:02 pmurias_ ferreira: do you have a commit bit?
16:02 ferreira no
16:05 pmurias_ ferreira: you could send it to perl6-compiler and wait for someone to apply it
16:05 pmurias_ or get a commit bit and add it yourself
16:05 ferreira ok. how do I get a commit bit?
16:05 Lorn its more easy to get a commit bit
16:05 Lorn :)
16:07 [particle] i'll give you one if you give me your email address and preferred username
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16:13 pugs_svn r19034 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] t-bootstrap/02-grammar.p6 - all tests pass
16:13 Lorn [particle]: if possible, i want too user: lorn email: lorn.br@gmail.com
16:14 [particle] lorn: sent!
16:15 fglock pmurias_: see last commit :)
16:15 [particle] add your name to AUTHORS to test your commit bit
16:15 Lorn [particle]: thanks
16:15 fglock ferreira, Lorn, ola!
16:16 ferreira fglock: oi
16:16 ferreira [particle]: email is a.r.ferreira at gmail.com and preferred username is ferreira
16:16 Lorn fglock: :)
16:17 Lorn fglock: d'oh, i forget the irc logs :/
16:17 pmurias_ fglock: nice
16:17 [particle] ferreira: sent!
16:17 Lorn and dont remember if have email protect
16:17 ferreira Lorn: just more a small pile of spam to collect from :)
16:18 [particle] don't worry, the irc logs obfuscate the email addrs
16:18 fglock kp6 is near to bootstrap... compiled to perl5 regex :P
16:18 [particle] @ is replaced with an image
16:18 Lorn [particle]: nice
16:18 ferreira [particle]: thanks - I could not answer you in private because I registered the nick and I am having trouble to authenticate :(
16:18 [particle] ferreira: i think by default the password is your username
16:19 [particle] (for nick auth)
16:19 [particle] fglock: pmichaud and i are making good progress converting perl6 to use nqp rather than pir
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16:20 ferreira if I use svk, there is some guideline to avoid messing up commit messages while pushing ?
16:20 [particle] many sanity tests are passing now
16:20 fglock [particle]: that's cool
16:21 fglock I still wonder how we could work together
16:21 [particle] could write kp6 in nqp, i guess :)
16:21 Lorn what is nqp?
16:22 [particle] not-quite-perl
16:22 [particle] it's a subset of perl 6 used to implement languages on parrot
16:22 fglock kp6 is just plain Perl 6
16:22 fglock simpler, even
16:22 pmurias_ fglock: more segfaults remain see func(1,2,3)
16:23 fglock pmurias_: I didn't convert the whole Pad.pm, just as-needed
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16:24 fglock [particle]: does nqp has string-eval?
16:24 [particle] fglock: it evaluates some string stuff, but not full p6
16:25 fglock string-eval, hash, array, and closures is all kp6 needs
16:25 pmurias fglock: i mean $_ = 'func(1,2,3)';KindaPerl6::Grammar.term()
16:26 fglock pmurias: looking
16:26 [particle] fglock: http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/compilers/nqp/README.pod
16:27 fglock [particle]: that's all kp6 needs
16:28 fglock converting the Perl 5 runtime to nqp should be straightforward,
16:28 fglock but it depends on how you plan to implement the MOP
16:28 fglock a straightforward conversion would implement the MOP in nqp
16:29 fglock but you might want it implemented in C
16:29 fglock or, s/C/Parrot/
16:29 [particle] parrot's oo support is quite nice
16:30 fglock even better :)
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16:30 rgs neuroµ!
16:30 neuromu rgs!
16:32 fglock [particle]: we can start with KindaPerl6::Visitor::Emit::Perl6, maybe it just works
16:34 pmurias fglock: you are considering having kp6 emit nqp?
16:34 fglock perl script/kp6 -Cperl6 -e ' say "hello, World" '   # untested
16:34 fglock pmurias: sure
16:35 [particle] that'd be cool, but nqp requires parens on functions
16:35 fglock no problem, we can tweak the emitter
16:35 [particle] yep, should be straightforward
16:36 [particle] i'm concentrating on getting changes in before our weekly status in a few hours atm
16:36 fglock currently compiles to something like: ($GLOBAL::Code_say)('hello, World')
16:37 [particle] kp6-on-nqp would be quite nice... i hope we can make something like that happen soon
16:37 fglock kp6 has several desugaring layers, you can choose how basic the target language is
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16:38 fglock [particle]: I would need some of your time for starting up
16:38 [particle] fglock: that can likely be arranged later today or tomorrow
16:39 fglock ok :)
16:39 fglock hmm - string eval is only needed for bootstrapping
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16:41 [particle] even easier :)
16:42 fglock bootstrapping in parrot would be cool
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16:46 [particle] since i've been away, i haven't caught up on the latest kp6 progress. anything big happen since 1 nov?
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16:56 dlocaus ferreira: hi!  this is daniel
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16:58 ferreira dlocaus: hi. you seem quite busy around here (perl6 land) - hoping you're enjoying your time :-)
16:58 dlocaus ferreira: I am... :)
16:59 dlocaus ferreira: accept my hd drive died.  I need -just- one file from it, I'm hoping that someone can restore it.  I think the logical sectors 0-7? are dead.
16:59 dlocaus ferreira: stupid harddrive.  I should have gone with a SCSI raid.
17:00 ferreira :( failing hardware sucks as most things that fail when they should not :P
17:00 dlocaus I know... the only hardware that EVER fails is the hardware that doesn't have a backup...  Things like this make me think the devil really does exist...
17:01 allbery_b s/the devil/murphy/
17:02 ferreira oh, not the devil, only chance: chance to win or to lose - Murphy's law asserts a high probability for failure however
17:02 moritz_ re
17:03 dlocaus ferreira: my scsi system has been up for years... at my former work place, once issues were streighted out, harddrive/hardware failures are rare.
17:03 dlocaus asssuming I heard about them...
17:06 fglock [particle]: re happen, several bugs were fixed (infinite loops in regexes, Scalar/Array/Hash autovivification, Array x List), some documentation added, and the bootstrapping process is going on
17:07 fglock and the Lisp backend got unmaintained :(
17:08 [particle] lisp stale already?
17:08 [particle] i guess it's really a dead langauge :/
17:11 pugs_svn r19035 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] simple expression parsing works
17:11 fglock [particle]: kp6-kp6 is the bootstrapped compiler - it is just starting to work
17:12 pmurias [particle]: and some things got cleaned up
17:12 [particle] o frabjous day! callooh! callay!
17:12 pmurias [particle]: avar is waiting for the bootstrap
17:13 [particle] ah, for the lisp backend? gotcha.
17:14 pugs_svn r19036 | ferreira++ | adding myself to AUTHORS: testing my commit bit
17:15 pmurias [particle]: i didn't refer that the lisp backend going unmaintained as cleanup, just a bit of nastines in kp6 got cleaned up
17:15 pmurias on the other hand kp6 is no fully 'no strict' by default
17:15 pmurias s/no/now
17:15 [particle] i mean, avar waiting for bootstrap to do lisp backend?
17:16 pmurias [particle]: yes
17:16 avar Well it's a mixed running around chasing other stuff / waiting for bootstrap
17:17 avar It's a bit harder if I do it right now, but it'll be easier once it's bootstrapped
17:18 pugs_svn r19037 | ferreira++ |  r16@dracma:  perl | 2007-12-04 15:18:33 -0200
17:18 pugs_svn r19037 | ferreira++ |  try Haskell package time as well (contains Data.Time.*) - this is coherent with the dependencies in the Debian package
17:19 avar Mainly because the main problems I was having with the lisp backend were Aankhen`` rewriting everything to be unlike the p5 one:)
17:19 avar Which will go away once all the .pm stuff is in p5 and I only have to emit more primitive stuff and not care about implementing array or pads and stuff like that
17:20 avar so my all means tell me when this is bootstrapping so I can haaack
17:23 fglock avar: sure
17:23 pmurias avar: what do you mean by having all the .pm stuff in p5?
17:23 pugs_svn r19038 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] more tests
17:26 avar uh, p6 I mean
17:31 pmurias avar: arrays are primitive stuff in p6, you don't generally get to play around with pointers in p6
17:32 avar Well pads then
17:32 avar Anyway more stuff in p6 .pm makes writing backends easier
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17:33 pmurias yes, i don't doubt it
17:33 avar pypy looks like a very interesting backend:)
17:34 avar p6 -> rpython then you have jit and whatnot
17:34 avar they're already running scheme and js
17:35 moritz_ parrot might be an intersting target as well ;-)
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17:35 moritz_ they already support most of p6's object model (what a coincidence... ;-)
17:36 pugs_svn r19039 | dlo++ | Updated documentation, no code changes.
17:36 avar Yeah sure, I still like multi-backend targets like lisp/pypy better if I had to choose:)
17:37 avar pypy does stand-alone C executables already, and they'd be doing optimization too
17:37 avar anyway I thought I'd mention it since people haven't been talking about it here that I've seen
17:37 avar w6
17:37 moritz_ avar: right. Of course you're welcome to write any backend you like ;)
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17:39 dlocaus fglock: I remember that you said a while ago, that all of kp6 would be "obsolete" in favor of onion (successor to kp6) is that still the case?
17:40 pmurias dlocaus: i hope so
17:41 pmurias dlocaus: it's more replaced the obsoleted
17:41 fglock the current plan is that the first "onion" will be just a copy, with the remaining MiniPerl6-isms removed
17:41 moritz_ kp6: print "string\ninterpolation"
17:41 exp_evalbot r19039: OUTPUT[string␤interpolation]
17:42 dlocaus is that "obsolete" in terms of "we're just going to delete it, because we don't need it" (meaning there is no point in more that documetnation for other programmers?) or "We will be using it, like we use miniperl6, so there is some worth to documenting it?"
17:42 fglock it will be incrementally obsoleted, most of the runtime will survive
17:43 fglock which is the documented part
17:43 dlocaus KindaPerl6\Runtime\Perl5 correct?
17:43 fglock yes
17:43 dlocaus ok
17:43 dlocaus ty
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17:44 fglock coffee &
17:45 pugs_svn r19040 | dlo++ | This file did not have a terminating "1;" to terminate the file.  I have added it.  I have also made minor documentation improvements.
17:48 pmurias dlocaus: lots of stuff will be changed to use new kp6 features
17:50 dlocaus pmurias: yeah, I saw some of that when I was looking at mp6.pl
17:50 dlocaus one of the packages (I don't remember right off hand  MATCH?) used kp6's match
18:00 pugs_svn r19041 | dlo++ | [kp6] Minor documentation improvements
18:01 pugs_svn r19042 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] added debug tracking info for current bug (arrow blocks)
18:04 fglock weird code: @(($$<arrow_sub_sig>).positional).>>key,
18:05 moritz_ aye
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18:19 pugs_svn r19043 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] minor fix in Pad.pm
18:20 pugs_svn r19044 | dlo++ | [kp6] Minor documentation improvements.  I have also added a "1;" to the end of the file.
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18:28 pugs_svn r19045 | dlo++ | [kp6] Minor documentation improvements.
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18:32 dlocaus fglock: ping?
18:32 dlocaus fglock: what does "XXX" mean in the code? I know its not saying this code is sexy...
18:32 pugs_svn r19046 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] documented possible bug, will fix later
18:32 fglock it mean "will fix this later"
18:32 moritz_ dlocaus: it means "that should be fixed"
18:33 dlocaus so it is === to "TODO"?
18:33 fglock like in last commit :P
18:33 fglock yes
18:33 fglock home &
18:33 dlocaus Do you mind if I change XXX to TODO?
18:33 fglock dlocaus: it's different, XXX doesn't prevent the code from working
18:33 moritz_ dlocaus: basically, XXX is more "this is probably a bug", whereas TODO is "this should be implemented"
18:33 fglock it's just "refactor this"
18:33 dlocaus Ah, ok.
18:34 pmurias "beware"
18:34 fglock :)
18:34 fglock now &
18:34 moritz_ "unsexy code below"
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19:00 Lorn does anybody use svk to sync pugs?
19:01 moritz_ judging from the commit messages, ferreira does
19:03 Lorn moritz_: what commit message?
19:04 moritz_ Lorn: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2007-12-04#i_156866
19:04 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2007-12-04
19:05 moritz_ that's the typical svk signature (if it's not configured to suppress the first line)
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19:06 Lorn moritz_: thanks
19:06 dlocaus is Pad.pm still in use?
19:06 Lorn moritz_: do you know if for the svk its a diferent url?
19:06 moritz_ Lorn: you're welcome
19:06 dlocaus KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5/Pad.pm?
19:07 dlocaus because the package declaration is "package Pad;"
19:07 moritz_ Lorn: I don't think so, but I'm not an svk expert
19:07 dlocaus I would have thought given its directory, it would be
19:07 dlocaus KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::Pad;
19:07 moritz_ Lorn: maybe look at http://feather.perl6.nl/svk.html
19:07 lambdabot Title: SVK on Feather
19:07 moritz_ ah wait, that's specific to feather, and I assume you don't have an account
19:18 pugs_svn r19047 | dlo++ | [kp6] Documentation added.
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19:55 * [particle] idly wonders if he can put "five years of perl 6 experience" on his resume :)
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19:57 moritz_ ;)
19:57 Aankhen`` [particle]: Why not? :-)
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20:28 gaal O HAI
20:29 moritz_ moose!
20:29 gaal hey moritz_ :)
20:29 moritz_ what's up gaal?
20:30 gaal work, work, work
20:30 gaal but I miss pugs!
20:30 moritz_ well, it's not running away ;)
20:31 gaal :/
20:37 [particle] pugs misses you too, gaal
20:40 gaal pugs: say '> "pugs: say <moose>"'
20:40 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[> "pugs: say <moose>"␤]
20:40 gaal oh right
20:40 gaal > "pugs: say <moose>"
20:40 lambdabot "pugs: say <moose>"
20:40 gaal tsk, tsk
20:41 gaal a polyglot bot command looks infeasible
20:42 [particle] perl6: say("moose")
20:42 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[moose␤]
20:42 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[moose␤]
20:42 exp_evalbot ..p6: OUTPUT[moose␤]
20:42 exp_evalbot ..nqp: OUTPUT[src/pmc_freeze.c:1254: failed assertion 'must_have_seen'␤Backtrace - Obtained 19 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤  Parrot_print_backtrace␤    Parrot_confess␤      (unknown)␤        (unknown)␤          (unknown)␤            (unknown)␤              Parrot_thaw␤
20:42 exp_evalbot ..PackFile_Constant_unpack_pmc␤                  PackFile_Con...
20:42 [particle] ouch
20:42 gaal whoa
20:42 gaal perl6: say localtime
20:42 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤   KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x824b75c)', 'APPLY') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169␤
20:42 exp_evalbot ..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824b75c)', 'APPLY') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/Kin...
20:42 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    at /tmp/CA2dUL7q5e line 2, column 1␤]
20:42 exp_evalbot ..p6: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6::Compiler;main' pc 138 (perl6.pir:98)␤]
20:42 exp_evalbot ..nqp: OUTPUT[src/pmc_freeze.c:1254: failed assertion 'must_have_seen'␤Backtrace - Obtained 19 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤  Parrot_print_backtrace␤    Parrot_confess␤      (unknown)␤        (unknown)␤          (unknown)␤            (unknown)␤              Parrot_thaw␤
20:42 exp_evalbot ..PackFile_Constant_unpack_pmc␤                  PackFile_Con...
20:43 gaal what you say?
20:43 gaal or is it "time"
20:43 thoughtpolice joined #perl6
20:43 gaal pugs: say time
20:43 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[250116216.850201␤]
20:43 gaal perl6: say time
20:43 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤   KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x824b75c)', 'APPLY') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169␤
20:43 exp_evalbot ..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824b75c)', 'APPLY') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/Kin...
20:43 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[250116222.955503␤]
20:43 exp_evalbot ..p6: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6::Compiler;main' pc 138 (perl6.pir:98)␤]
20:43 exp_evalbot ..nqp: OUTPUT[src/pmc_freeze.c:1254: failed assertion 'must_have_seen'␤Backtrace - Obtained 19 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤  Parrot_print_backtrace␤    Parrot_confess␤      (unknown)␤        (unknown)␤          (unknown)␤            (unknown)␤              Parrot_thaw␤
20:43 exp_evalbot ..PackFile_Constant_unpack_pmc␤                  PackFile_Con...
20:44 pmurias gaal: evals hurts ;)
20:44 gaal who's evaling what? I'm up to slow
20:44 pugs_svn r19048 | moritz++ | [evalbot] disable nqp evaluation
20:45 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
20:45 pmurias gaal: sorry "perl6:"
20:45 [particle] moritz: nqp should be working, but it's moved from languages/nqp to compilers/nqp
20:45 moritz_ [particle]: ah, that explains a lot
20:45 [particle] anyway, need to update that parrot repo, it's probably an old rev
20:46 moritz_ gaal: ^(kp6|nqp|pugs|p6) evals with the respective compiler...
20:46 moritz_ gaal: and ^perl6: evals with all of them
20:46 gaal does the kp6 error mean time's not implemented, or that the kp6 bot is broken?
20:47 moritz_ kp6: say "I'm fine"
20:47 exp_evalbot r19048: OUTPUT[I'm fine␤]
20:47 moritz_ so it's NYI
20:48 gaal Not Yncredibly Invalid?
20:48 gaal oh oh
20:48 gaal yeah.
20:50 pugs_svn r19049 | moritz++ | [evalbot] reenable nqp evaluation (but not as part of 'perl6:')
20:50 ispy_ joined #perl6
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20:52 pmurias gaal: kp6 is 'no strict', so the unimplemented &time is undef
20:53 moritz_ kp6: say time()
20:53 exp_evalbot r19049: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤        KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x824b75c)', 'APPLY') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169␤
20:53 exp_evalbot ..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824b75c)', 'APPLY') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/Kin...
20:53 gaal ah, I see, and undef() dies.
20:53 moritz_ right
20:54 gaal that error message should probably be improved :) but I wonder how, unless the undef is somehow "but named<&time>"
20:55 moritz_ gaal: the checking should be made at compile time
20:55 pmurias gaal: use strict
20:55 Patterner who needs messages? just return a large negative numb3r and let the people google for it...
20:56 gaal even without use strict, I like to know what went wrong when it did
20:56 gaal Patterner: there aren't enough negative numbers to describe the various things that can go wrong
20:57 moritz_ I think it could be done in the MMD dispatcher, somehow
20:57 Patterner And I thought card(|R) is pretty big...
20:58 gaal not if the dispatcher sees a pure undef? but don't listen to me
20:58 moritz_ gaal: the dispatcher should see a name, not a ref
20:58 gaal Patterner: I wouldn't get into a contest against Murphy and computers combined.
20:58 moritz_ gaal: otherwise it wouldn't have to dispatch at all
20:59 moritz_ nqp: say("back again");
20:59 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[back again␤]
20:59 gaal nqp: 42
20:59 exp_evalbot RESULT[Syntax error at line 1, near "( ( do { 4"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤called from Sub 'parrot;NQP::Grammar;TOP' pc 588 (src/Grammar_gen.pir:129)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;parse' pc 444 (src/HLLCompiler.pir:291)␤called
20:59 exp_evalbot ..from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;compile' pc 34...
20:59 gaal O RLY?
20:59 pmurias moritz_: i would guess the dispatcher sees the value
21:00 pmurias ($foo.bar).baz
21:01 moritz_ pmurias: perhaps my understanding of the dispatcher is a bit wrong ;)
21:02 moritz_ I always thought the dispatcher takes a sub/method name and a capture of arguments, and determins (and calls) the right method
21:03 pmurias it's done a bit differently in kp6
21:03 pmurias in case of sub calls the method name is APPLY
21:12 pmurias moritz_: if the dispatcher recived a sub name it would need at least the lexical pad too
21:47 kyrbe joined #perl6
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21:51 pmurias @tell fglock while attempting to remove eval uncovered a bug
21:51 lambdabot Consider it noted.
21:53 pmurias @tell fglock look at line 1586 compiled/perl5-kp6-kp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Grammar/Regex.pm inside eval
21:53 lambdabot Consider it noted.
21:53 * akreal is back.
21:56 pmurias akreal: to the computer or from the dead :)
21:57 akreal pmurias: aren't this things the same?)
21:58 akreal hello world :)
22:10 pmurias akreal: hello world :)
22:14 ispy_ joined #perl6
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22:54 marmic_ joined #perl6
22:59 ispy_ does p6 have any integrated xml parsing abilities?
22:59 moritz_ ispy_: no
23:00 ispy_ ok, just curious :0
23:00 moritz_ just very powerfull grammars
23:00 moritz_ that should make plain perl6 parsing really easy
23:00 ispy_ I've yet to mess with grammers yet.
23:00 integral once someone writes a module called "XML::ParseIt", you just type "use XML::ParseIt;" and then functions are available to parse XML.  Is that integrated enough?
23:01 moritz_ they're less messy and more powerfull than regexpes ;)
23:01 ispy_ that's not native, smart ass.
23:01 ispy_ so no.
23:01 ispy_ :)
23:01 integral What does native mean if the perl6 compiler is written in perl6?
23:01 ispy_ integral: stop being pedantic.
23:01 ispy_ dork.
23:01 integral No, I'm asking what you really mean
23:02 PerlJam ispy_: I don't know what you mean by "native" here either
23:02 * ispy_ shakes his head...
23:02 integral as I understand it, we'll be able to extend the perl6 grammar in modules, so we'll be able to say things like qq:xml{ <xml> </xml> } and have the quoting behave somewhat intelligently, and yield an AST
23:03 ispy_ being embedded into the interpreter... a native  ( not requiring a module but part of the language )
23:03 PerlJam ispy_: Perl 6 will come with nothing but Perl 6.  From that people will construct "distributions" that have commonly used modules bundled with Perl 6.
23:03 ispy_ how could it mean anything other than that?
23:03 ispy_ so, same as p5.
23:03 ispy_ cool...
23:03 PerlJam ispy_: no, there will never be a "native" xml parser in perl 6 in that sense.
23:03 ispy_ ok, didn't think so... but was curious.
23:03 moritz_ ispy_: there will be no "core" perl6 with many useful modules as in p5
23:04 PerlJam moritz_: aigh!  Now you've said the C-word and we're likely to rehash the p6l thread!  ;)
23:04 ispy_ so you are saying that unlike p5 which comes with several handy cpan modules, p6 will come with it's language only?
23:04 integral One problem is that if you admit something to be available without saying "use ...", you end up with having to have that available everywhere, even an embedded environment;  if an environment doesn't have it available, it's suddenly not Perl 6, rather than just being Perl 6 but without a module installed
23:05 ispy_ I agree.
23:05 moritz_ ispy_: see http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/2007/11/msg28016.html and the whole threads
23:05 lambdabot Title: xml and perl 6 - nntp.perl.org, http://tinyurl.com/3cg3xj
23:05 PerlJam ispy_: p6 will come with its language and whatever else is needed to get and install modules from CPAN (or cpan-like things)
23:06 PerlJam moritz_: is that larry's message?
23:06 * PerlJam is too lazy to look
23:06 moritz_ PerlJam: that's the root of the "xml and perl" threads
23:06 ispy_ so are some of you active in the p6 development?
23:06 ispy_ I've been wanting to contribute, possibly to cpan6 or something.
23:07 PerlJam moritz_: you should just link to larry's response :)
23:07 moritz_ ispy_: so in which language do you want to code?
23:07 PerlJam ispy_: i've contributed in some small ways to pugs and parrot and I've written some articles on parrot and perl6.  I guess that's "active"
23:08 moritz_ same for me if you s/parrot/kp6/
23:08 ispy_ moritz_: honestly, my haskell isn't impressive.  However I am and continue to be a professional p5 developer.  And have really taken a liking to p6.  So I was wondering if ways existed for me to contribute p6 code.
23:09 ispy_ moritz_: I've really just gotten into haskell over the past month.
23:09 ispy_ PerlJam: I plan on writing a p6 crash course for Detroit.pm
23:09 moritz_ ispy_: you could work on kp6, that's a perl6 compiler in a subset of p6, and emits p5
23:09 PerlJam ispy_: tests are always welcome.  The pugs repo is the standard place for all perl6 tests.
23:10 ispy_ excellent...
23:10 ispy_ moritz_: where could I find out more about getting involved with kp6?
23:10 moritz_ ispy_: here ;-)
23:10 ispy_ sweet :)
23:10 ispy_ so basically this is a p6 interpreter that converts p6 code to p5?
23:10 moritz_ ispy_: first check out the pugs repo, which contains kp6 under v6/v6-KindaPerl6/
23:11 ispy_ ok
23:11 moritz_ ispy_: a compiler, do be more specific ;)
23:11 ispy_ moritz_: a compiler that doesn't compile? or am I missing something?
23:11 ispy_ :)
23:11 moritz_ ispy_: it compiles to a p5 image
23:11 PerlJam ispy_: you're probably stuck with an archaic idea of "compiler"  :)
23:11 ispy_ oh, ok.
23:12 ispy_ I'm sure I am :)
23:12 ispy_ But I'm willing to expand my mind.
23:12 ispy_ gonna eat some dinner, I'll be back to talk some more shop with you guys... I'm really interested in getting involved.  I love Perl.
23:12 PerlJam ispy_: be sure to read the synopses if you haven't already
23:13 moritz_ the right people to ask about the interna are fglock and pmurias.. both of which (and me too) live in europe, so you won't reach any of us in the next ~6hrs ;-)
23:14 ispy_ PerlJam: I have, thank you.  A very important read.
23:14 moritz_ you can get a commmit bit to the repository here, just /msg your email and desired nick to somebody
23:14 moritz_ I'm still not sure if I've read all of the synopsis entirely :/
23:15 PerlJam moritz_: you have to periodically re-read them or you will miss changes.
23:15 moritz_ PerlJam: I read the diffs on p6l ;)
23:15 PerlJam (plus the re-reads will keep the static parts in your head :)
23:16 PerlJam yeah, I read the diffs too, but occasionally you need to see things in contet.
23:16 PerlJam er, context
23:16 PerlJam (a lrager context than the diff :)
23:16 PerlJam s/lra/lar/
23:16 moritz_ aye
23:17 moritz_ PerlJam: I try to translate some of the synopsis periodically (and get stuck at 10%-50%)
23:17 moritz_ that way I want to make sure I actually _understand_ them ;)
23:20 * moritz_ -> bed
23:29 ispy_ PerlJam: honestly, the synopsis is confusing to me :)
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