Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-12-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:18 meppl good night
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12:38 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
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12:59 MoKu23 hi
13:00 MoKu23 ;)
13:01 MoKu23 �_�
13:01 MoKu23 boy help me?
13:01 araujo no
13:02 MoKu23 why?
13:02 araujo because we can't
13:02 MoKu23 w la figa e non ci pensate + xD
13:04 araujo creo que no entendistes lo que te dije
13:06 elmex speaking russian won't get u far
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14:55 fglock i found a workaround for mixing code and regex in perl5 - testing...
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15:30 pmurias fglock: what's the workaround?
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15:31 fglock it's a mix between the current p5rx and PCR,
15:31 fglock kind of an inside-out of p5rx
15:31 fglock one sec,
15:31 pmurias okay
15:31 fglock $ perl -e ' $_="4234"; ( /\G4/g && /\G2/g ); print pos(),"\n"; '
15:32 fglock add regex to code, instead of add code to regex
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15:32 fglock it's just a bit slower
15:33 pmurias fglock: not nessesary much slower
15:33 fglock but most important, it shouldn't segfault
15:34 fglock i'm working on an implementation
15:34 pmurias fglock: once it's working in should be possible to have it join fragments not containing perl5 code
15:34 fglock sure
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15:40 fglock there are several possible optimizations - i just want it to work for now
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15:51 hareldvd Does env variable such as LC_LANG influences regexps? cos on egrep it does.
16:00 wolverian perldoc perllocale
16:00 wolverian if you mean perl 5
16:01 wolverian as for perl 6, I don't remember that in the spec.
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16:16 pugs_svn r19097 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] new perl5rx emitter, passes t/kp6/grammar/01-simple-or-token.t
16:16 pugs_svn r19097 | fglock++ | - old perl5rx emitter saved to Emit::Perl5RegexPure
16:21 TimToady at the standard unicode level, "graphs"¸ locales are completely ignored.
16:22 TimToady locales are evil
16:22 wolverian and useful :)
16:22 TimToady but if you ask for language dependent character processing, you can ask it to pay attention to a locale
16:22 wolverian what I hate is when an app decodes the input _file_ according to locale
16:22 wolverian that makes absolutely no sense
16:23 TimToady locales are a classic case of misplaced type information
16:23 wolverian hm, yeah.
16:23 TimToady and p6 is trying to clear up all the misplaced data
16:24 pugs_svn r19098 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] t/kp6/grammar/02-non-capturing-group.t passes
16:24 fglock yet another regex engine rewrite :P
16:25 wolverian I'm so tired I started thinking about attaching locale info to the monitor
16:25 wolverian "my monitor is en_US.UTF-8"
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16:26 pmurias wolverian: why does decoding the input _file_ according to locase does not make sense?
16:26 wolverian pmurias, what does the file have to do with the locale?
16:30 pmurias wolverian: locale as far as i understand is the information about the local environment which files are part of
16:31 pmurias i myself only care about the charset part of the locale
16:32 wolverian the locale doesn't really have anything to do with files. maybe you just downloaded the file from elsewhere.
16:32 wolverian I think larry meant this problem. the metadata isn't attached to the data.
16:33 allbery_b actually I would say the locale does have to do with files.  the problem is the ==wolverian locale should be part of each frile's metadata
16:33 allbery_b notpart of the "globa" environment
16:33 wolverian right
16:33 pugs_svn r19099 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] t/kp6/grammar/03-ident-token-from-grammar.t passes
16:34 pmurias wolverian: i think the understanding is that you convert all the files you store on your hard drive
16:35 wolverian no
16:35 wolverian are you perhaps thinking of filenames?
16:37 allbery_b his theory is that any time you obtain a file from somewhere it is converted to your format
16:37 allbery_b the problem here is shared files:  what if person A's format is ISO8859/1 and person B's is UTF16?
16:38 allbery_b so the file really needs to be tagged
16:41 pmurias allbery_b: i belive ISO8859/1 should be obsoleted
16:42 allbery_b *shrug* substitue UTF8 then.  (WIndows uses UTF16, Unix prefers UTF8, so that is not necessarily a trumped-up example.)
16:42 allbery_b that said, older files may well still be ISO8859/1
16:43 allbery_b and still older ones may be plain ASCII
16:44 allbery_b (yes, some of us *do* have files that old hanging around; shuld we really have to recode them every few years to keep up with current notions?)
16:46 pmurias allbery_b: i agree with you that they should be marked with metadata
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16:47 pmurias that would make the recoding much easier ;)
16:48 allbery_b if I keep tem for archival and don't touch them that often, recoding only when needed is better.  and it still doesn't address the question of files thatmay be accessed by different users with different environment settings
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17:22 pmurias fglock: shouldn't it be /gc instead of /g?
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17:23 fglock what is /c ?
17:24 pmurias it's the continue modifier, the pos dosn't get reset on a failed match
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17:26 pmurias s/reset/zeroed/
17:26 djm where are those documented? it doesn't seem to be in perlre (what's /e?)
17:27 fglock i think it is not needed, because the program needs to store pos() in order to control backtracking anyway
17:28 pmurias /\G1/g && (/\G2/g || /\G3/g)?
17:29 pmurias is /\G(1[23]|3)/g instead of /1[23]/g
17:30 fglock see Rule::Or - but i may be wrong
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17:34 fglock the old p5rx algorithm can't be directly mapped to the new one
17:35 fglock the local+backtrack trick doesn't work
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17:40 pmurias fglock: why dosn't the save pos and restore it if Or fails trick work?
17:41 pmurias fglock: i think it needs to be /gc for &&
17:42 fglock it works, the problem is it needs to reset the $GLOBAL::_M structure too
17:43 fglock i think you don't need it for &&, because if it fails it ... failed
17:43 pmurias right
17:43 fglock but i'm not thinking clearly after 3 days struggling perl5 bugs :P
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17:44 fglock i think we need some simple && and || tests
17:49 fglock i mean, regex tests
17:49 pmurias i got it
17:50 fglock get some coffee && food &
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17:54 pmurias fglock: kp6 dosn't support || and && (but | and & do what they should)
18:00 pmurias &
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18:20 pugs_svn r19100 | dlo++ | [kp6] Altered the files so that perltidy is not required
18:20 dlocaus well, harddrive is still in the shop... but I've got another one going! I'm back!
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18:41 pugs_svn r19101 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] implemented some rollbacks
18:41 fglock dlocaus: :)
18:41 dlocaus fglock: in the Makefile
18:41 dlocaus how does mp6.pl know which files to compile and which ones not too?
18:42 pugs_svn r19102 | pmurias++ | [kp6] simple or test
18:42 fglock the make utility looks at the file dates
18:42 dlocaus fglock: but I did a forcerecompile
18:42 dlocaus compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/%.pm: src/%.pm
18:42 dlocaus $(PERL) script/mp6.pl -o $@ $<
18:42 dlocaus that makeline seams to be indicating compile -everything- in src/%.pm into compiled...
18:43 dlocaus but only some files are compiled.
18:43 dlocaus why isn't anything in KindaPerl6::Runtime::* compiled by mp6?
18:43 dlocaus sorry, src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/*.pm
18:44 pmurias other rules take precendence
18:45 dlocaus pmurias: ah, so if another "rule" had worked on the file, then it is skipped?
18:45 dlocaus so in effect the last rule is the "default" rule for all files that had not been touched? (for this makefile)
18:46 pmurias yes
18:47 dlocaus ah, ok, now this makes more scense :), ty
18:54 dlocaus fglock: I found this in the FAQ.pod, is it obsolete now?
18:54 dlocaus =item Bootstrapping mp6-perl5: (FGLOCK: Where is this?)
18:54 dlocaus This script rebuilds the lib5 directory. It creates a directory named lib5-new:
18:54 dlocaus perl util/build-perl5.sh
18:54 dlocaus mv lib5 lib5-old
18:54 dlocaus mv lib5-new lib5
18:54 pmurias pos($_pos) is a bug it should be pos($_) = $_pos;
18:54 dlocaus and, is perl kp6-perl5.pl now known as script/kp6
18:54 fglock this is in v6-MiniPerl6/util
18:55 dlocaus ah, ok
18:56 fglock pmurias: one sec, I'll commit what I have here
18:57 dlocaus fglock: (when you get a chance)
18:57 dlocaus The 'kp6-perl5.pl' script is one of the possible compiler 'workflows' that can be built with kp6.
18:57 dlocaus perl kp6-perl5.pl < source.pm > dest.pm
18:57 dlocaus this kp6-perl5.pl is now known as the perl5 build from Makefile.pl? And the script is script/kp6 -Bperl5 in effect right?
18:57 pugs_svn r19103 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] more fixes
18:57 dlocaus (that was from the FAQ.pod too)
18:58 fglock yes, script/kp6 -Bperl5  is the old kp6-perl5
18:58 dlocaus ok, ty
19:01 pugs_svn r19104 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] fixed pos() usage - pmurias++
19:02 pugs_svn r19105 | dlo++ | [kp6] Updated the documentation.  Please review the changeset.
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19:09 pugs_svn r19106 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] fixed extra }
19:12 pugs_svn r19107 | dlo++ | [kp6] Added comment explaining the mp6.pl part of the Makefile.PL
19:13 dlocaus is this file supposed to be commited?
19:13 dlocaus compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Visitor/Emit/Perl5RegexPure.pm
19:13 dlocaus it was "made" on my machine, but not part of the repository
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19:15 fglock dlocaus: it has bugs - I'll move it away
19:15 dlocaus oh, ok.
19:18 pugs_svn r19108 | dlo++ | [kp6] perltidy'd these files
19:20 pugs_svn r19109 | fglock++ | [kp6] move Emit::Perl5RegexPure away, because it segfaults Perl 5
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19:41 fglock &
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20:09 pugs_svn r19110 | dlo++ | [kp6] perltidy'd these files
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20:35 dlocaus in "class Var" it has the attribute $.namespace, when I debug the compiled version it appears to say that $.namespace is an array.  but when I invoke $.namespace.elems == 0, it claims it is not an array
20:36 dlocaus $.namespace.elems converts to perl5: $self->{namespace}->elems()
20:36 dlocaus but $self->{namespace} is an unblessed reference
20:36 dlocaus ergo:  if   ( ( $self->{namespace}->elems() == 0 ) )
20:36 dlocaus that fails
20:36 dlocaus pmurias: ping?
20:37 dlocaus @seen pmurias
20:37 lambdabot pmurias is in #perl6. I last heard pmurias speak 1h 42m 43s ago.
20:37 dlocaus moritz_: ping?
20:41 pugs_svn r19111 | dlo++ | [kp6] a little bit of work, getting subroutines to emit in perl6
20:53 pmurias dlocaus: ping
20:53 dlocaus pmurias: pong
20:54 dlocaus pmurias: did you read what I wrote above your initial ping inquriy?
20:54 dlocaus about "class Var"
20:55 pmurias it looks like namespace is undef if not specified
20:55 dlocaus but when I quired it via the debugger it was an empty array
20:57 pmurias dlocaus: mp6 stores arrays as unblessed array references
20:58 dlocaus humm ok
20:59 pmurias mp6 is buggy
20:59 dlocaus oh argh!
20:59 dlocaus :)
21:03 pmurias dlocaus: on of the points of the bootstrap is to no longer use mp6
21:03 dlocaus this bootstraping is giving me a headache.
21:04 dlocaus If we use mp6 to compile perl6 code to provide libraries for kp6, and then we no longer use mp6, who will compile the perl6 code to provide libraries for kp6?
21:05 pmurias dlocaus: we don't use mp6 is such capability as far as i know
21:05 pmurias have you found any such files?
21:06 dlocaus Well, yes.  When you "make forcerecompile", the first 10 or so files, are files compiled by mp6 to produce the AST and visitor code
21:07 dlocaus and the Grammar code.
21:07 pmurias they will be compiled by kp6
21:07 * dlocaus is thinking
21:08 pmurias you will have to have a compiled version of kp6 to compile the source code
21:08 meppl good night
21:09 pmurias meppl: good night
21:10 dlocaus but once you can get a "good" version of kp6 going, then you can compile the parser files that mp6 used to compile, and then remove mp6?
21:10 meppl ;)
21:11 pmurias dlocaus: exactly
21:11 dlocaus ah ok.
21:11 dlocaus what happens when you find there is a flaw in the kp6 parser code?
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21:12 pmurias there are lots now
21:13 dlocaus humm, ok
21:13 pmurias you change the kp6 source code and compile it with the last working version
21:13 dlocaus ok, I'll update the FAQ
21:14 pmurias dlocaus: you are talking about it in the context of the future when it's bootstaped, or right now?
21:14 pmurias * asking
21:15 dlocaus well, this seams to be the problem where in that old problem, what happens if someone puts a "backdoor" in the compiler, thus when the compiler compiles any other code (including another compiler) it would put the "backdoor" in the next "compiler"
21:15 dlocaus instead of "backdoor" I'm thinking about a bug.
21:18 pmurias that could happen but only a minority of bugs would replicate themself
21:18 dlocaus ok.
21:19 pmurias and still produce a compiler which passes the test suit
21:19 pmurias or so i hope :)
21:19 dlocaus It might make an interesting paper if we find such a bug :)
21:20 pmurias a article or a blog post at least
21:20 dlocaus :)
21:21 pmurias shower&
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21:23 pugs_svn r19112 | dlo++ | [kp6] documented the bootstrapping process better.
21:26 pugs_svn r19113 | dlo++ | [kp6] documentation clean up, removed idiom.
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21:33 pmurias b
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21:39 pugs_svn r19114 | pmurias++ | [kp6] minor clarification
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21:56 pugs_svn r19115 | pmurias++ | [kp6-faq] described status of v6-Onion, small changes
21:57 dlocaus pmurias: ping?
21:58 dlocaus http://dev.pugscode.org/browser/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Visitor/Emit/Parrot.pm#L303
21:58 dlocaus http://dev.pugscode.org/browser/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Visitor/Emit/Parrot.pm#L799
21:58 dlocaus I was hunting down an odd report by perl::tidy complaining of duplicate subroutine names in the Parrot.pm package.
21:59 dlocaus In "class Var" method name "name", and "invocant", "positional" in "class Sig"; are produced twice
21:59 dlocaus when compiled by mp6.pl.
22:00 dlocaus the first time is the accessor (standard accessor), but the second declarations of the subroutine force it to be read-only.
22:00 dlocaus I removed the subroutines and all the test cases worked as normal.  Should those R/O accessors be removed?
22:02 dlocaus pmurias: ping?
22:03 dlocaus moritz_: ping?
22:08 pmurias dlocaus: pong
22:08 dlocaus pmurias: hey, can you check out the above comment?
22:08 pmurias doing it
22:10 pmurias dlocaus: you can remove it
22:10 dlocaus ok, ty
22:10 pmurias does Emit::Parrot actually work?
22:11 dlocaus I don't know.
22:11 dlocaus I was hunting down an odd report when doing a forcerecompile
22:11 pasteling "dlocaus" at 63.192.210.11 pasted "odd perltidy report" (8 lines, 900B) at http://sial.org/pbot/29110
22:11 pmurias i think it's unsupported
22:11 dlocaus pmurias: I've pasted it above.
22:12 dlocaus pmurias: well, it may be unsupported now, but it will have to be supported sometime! ;)
22:12 pmurias dlocaus: i think going through PAST instead of directly emitting pir is the way to go
22:12 dlocaus PAST?
22:13 dlocaus ah, I see
22:13 dlocaus neat
22:14 dlocaus I'm not that far along yet... in the parrot world, I'd still be a bird cage cleaner :)
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22:19 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | [kp6]  Perl::Tidy was producing an error message stating that
22:19 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ |
22:19 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | /usr/bin/perl script/mp6.pl -o compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Visitor/Emit/Parrot.pm
22:19 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | src/KindaPerl6/Visitor/Emit/Parrot.pm
22:19 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | 126:    already saw definition of 'sub name' in package 'Var' at line 124
22:19 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | 197:    already saw definition of 'sub invocant' in package 'Sig' at line 193
22:19 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | 198:    already saw definition of 'sub positional' in package 'Sig' at line 194
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ |
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | While, this message appears to be from perl, or even mp6.pl it is really produced by Perl::Tidy.
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | MP6 produces (as per spec) accessors for attributes in "class Var" and "class Sig"
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | however, those classes later produces read only accessors.
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ |
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | pmurias said they could be removed:
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ |
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2007-12-07#i_158855
22:20 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2007-12-07
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ |
22:20 pugs_svn r19116 | dlo++ | make forcerecompile; make test; -> all tests pass
22:32 rgs joined #perl6
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22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ | [kp6]  I have added a line of code to strip the spaces at the begining of every line.
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ |
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ | By removing the spaces from begining of every line, I have reduced the amount of time it takes to parse a file.
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ |
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ | On a 26k file compiled by mp6.pl, this reduces compilation time by 3 seconds.  I believe overall this would reduce
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ | total compilation time by 1 minute.
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ |
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ | Since, all code is parsed by perltidy after being "compiled" there are no net changes to any of the files.
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ |
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ |
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ | make forcerecompile; make test => passes all tests.
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ | svn noted no changes in the compiled/* directory too!
22:54 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ |
22:55 pugs_svn r19117 | dlo++ | dlocaus++ (sorry, could not resist)
23:24 jql joined #perl6
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23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | [kp6]  I have written in code to allow people to quickly turn on/off the use
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | of perltidy by setting the environmental variable PERLTIDY to /dev/null, instead
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | of ???/util/perltidyrc.  This reduces compile time by approximately 20%.
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ |
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | #!/bin/tcsh
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | setenv PERLTIDY /dev/null
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | unsetenv PERLTIDY
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ |
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | I have doubts about this feature as I am worried that someone will commit these
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | files to the respository.  However, volunteer time is -the most- valuable
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | time and should not be wasted.
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ |
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | A warning will be issued at compile time requesting that the user not commit
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | these files to the respository.
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ |
23:58 pugs_svn r19118 | dlo++ | dlocaus@ #perl6 irc.freenode.net

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