Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-12-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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08:57 moritz_ good morning, lambdamoose ;)
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15:07 ruoso fglock, about scopes...
15:08 ruoso one thing I just reminded is that it is expected that the scope can be pushed and popped explicitly
15:08 ruoso perl5 does it, for instance...
15:08 ruoso you have a macro to push and pop the scope
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15:09 fglock { ... }
15:09 ruoso in vm terms, I mean
15:09 ruoso not in language terms
15:09 ruoso so for every type of scope, it's ok to expect an explicit declaratino of a push or pop
15:10 ruoso when declaring a context variable
15:10 fglock $inner := $outer.inner; ...; $inner.DESTROY
15:10 ruoso yep...
15:10 ruoso but that also for the other kinds of scopes...
15:11 ruoso $contextinner := $contextouter.inner; ...; $contextinner.destroy
15:11 theorbtwo ruoso: I note that requirement of perl5 has been a reason for a lot of memory leaks in XS historically, and one of the ideas for perl6 when the project was first announced (back in the dim elder days) was to get away from that to make writing XS-equiv easier.
15:12 ruoso theorbtwo, but how do you implement it without explicit scope manipulation?
15:12 theorbtwo ruoso: Fuck if I know.
15:13 ruoso heh
15:13 theorbtwo The idea was that the supermagical gc would obliviate the need for XS writers to care so much.
15:13 ruoso ah.. yeah... the trace gc...
15:14 ruoso but this is not completely scope-related...
15:14 ruoso p5 requires that because it only destroys the variables when you pop the scope..
15:15 ruoso in yap6, otoh, the variable is destroyed immediatly if it reaches refcount 0
15:15 ruoso anyway, I'm not still confortable with trace gc..
15:15 ruoso I like things being deterministic
15:16 ruoso the thing in Perl 6 is the new types of scope
15:16 ruoso which makes a new set of possible stacks for symbol-name-resolution
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15:19 ruoso fglock, I got it...
15:19 ruoso if you place before GlobalScope a hash for the twigils
15:19 ruoso you can represent the other scope types...
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15:19 fglock hmm
15:20 ruoso then you'll have
15:20 ruoso MainScopeManager{*}{A::b}
15:21 ruoso for a global variable
15:23 ruoso and you can have a precedence list for scope types
15:23 ruoso like
15:23 ruoso you first look at "my", than at "context", than at "temp", and finally at "global"
15:24 ruoso unless the twigil is defined... which makes you look directly to that scope...
15:25 ruoso hmmm
15:26 ruoso maybe I'm wrong...
15:30 ruoso in which synopsis is the definition of the variable scope types ?
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15:34 [particle] looks like S04, but it's somewhat messy imo
15:36 fglock I think most of the info is in the mail logs
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16:12 pmurias fglock: why is GlobalScoper required, wouldn't an implicit 'use GLOBAL' be cleaner?
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16:16 ruoso pmurias, GlobalScope is not GLOBAL
16:16 ruoso GLOBAL is a namespace entry
16:19 pmurias ruoso: i don't claim it is
16:20 pmurias GlobalScope is i guess nessesary for 'no strict'
16:21 fglock pmurias: GlobalScope is just an specialized Scope - it's not really necessary
16:21 fglock it's just an experiment for now
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16:21 fglock s/an/a/
16:21 fglock 1st
16:22 fglock i'm doing some experiments with interpreters (as opposed to VM)
16:24 pmurias fglock: interpreters such as perl5 or such as in bash
16:24 pmurias ?
16:24 pmurias s/in//
16:29 fglock such as perl5
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16:33 pmurias fglock: are there other major things slowing down the perl5 backend then the slow dispatch?
16:34 fglock there is the Container object overhead
16:34 pmurias (have you seen misc/cache.pl?)
16:35 fglock yes - have you tested it?
16:36 pmurias in kp6?
16:37 pmurias i could try to integrate it
16:37 fglock pmurias: even if we get to MiniPerl6 speed, this is still slow
16:37 fglock but it would help for now
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16:38 fglock we could focus on the compiler again, instead of worrying about backends
16:38 pmurias fglock: i think it shouldn't be too hard to beat the mp6 based compiler
16:39 pmurias we have better parse times, and the compiler does very little work besides parsing for now
16:42 fglock re little work - compiling kp6 generates a *lot* of data
16:44 fglock coffee &
16:46 pugs_svn r19221 | pmurias++ | [kp6] changed variable_names to lexicals in the libkp6 Pad
16:54 pugs_svn r19222 | pmurias++ | [kp6] removing bit of an experiment which got commited accidently
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17:55 pugs_svn r19223 | pmurias++ | [kp6] start of method caching (not fully integrated)
18:09 pugs_svn r19224 | pmurias++ | [kp6-perl5] autofetch and boxed methods work although we don't get a performance benefit
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18:41 jjore-w ?eval ^..^
18:41 jjore-w aw.
18:41 jjore-w eval: ^..^
18:41 jjore-w !eval ^..^
18:41 jjore-w shoot.
18:41 Auzon pugs: ^..^
18:42 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "^..^"␤    expecting program␤    at /tmp/bcbbtZRu7a line 1, column 1␤]
18:42 Auzon kp6: ^..^
18:42 exp_evalbot r19224: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 0, line 1 column 0:␤^..␤^ HERE␤]
18:42 Auzon What's that supposed to do, anyway?
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18:46 pugs_svn r19225 | pmurias++ | [kp6] using .isa to check for Code in cached method calls
18:47 pmurias pugs: ^..&
18:47 pmurias pugs: ^..^
18:47 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "^..&"␤    expecting program␤    at /tmp/cpURTBk5xv line 1, column 1␤]
18:47 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "^..^"␤    expecting program␤    at /tmp/hfgRBJDRSk line 1, column 1␤]
18:54 fglock pugs: *; kp6: *; nqp: *; all say "hello"
18:54 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[hello␤]
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19:03 pugs_svn r19226 | pmurias++ | [kp6-perl5] commented the method caching code a bit
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19:11 fglock [particle]: ping
19:15 [particle] hey there flavio
19:16 fglock I've been reading about perl6/nqp for a few days,
19:17 fglock I see some Parrot problems are worked around, instead of fixing
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19:18 fglock most of the kp6-perl5 runtime is made of workarounds over Perl 5
19:18 fglock i hoped Parrot would make this easier
19:18 PerlJam fglock: worked around until they are fixed.  Work arounds are just so that forward progress isn't hampered
19:19 fglock i wonder if some of the kp6 workarounds could be useful for perl6
19:20 [particle] surely possible
19:20 fglock if these things were implemented, we could share the runtime
19:20 [particle] with parrot, we're working around things that are actively being (re)designed
19:20 [particle] with perl5, you're working around permanent design limitations, i suspect
19:20 fglock the most important thing for kp6 are BEGIN blocks, but there are other small stuff
19:22 [particle] we're still figuring out the begin/end control block design
19:23 fglock kp6 workaround for BEGIN blocks is resource-intensive, it should probably be implemented in low-level
19:23 fglock probably C, because PIR doesn't seem to support creating closures
19:23 [particle] since it's our one remaining test failure, it'd be nice to have before tomorrow's parrot release
19:24 [particle] pmichaud is at lunch now, but when he returns it'd be worth talking about
19:24 fglock tomorrow is a bit too close :)
19:24 [particle] well, we don't need end tests passing, we can TODO them
19:25 fglock END is runtime
19:25 [particle] true
19:25 [particle] begin is the tricky one
19:25 [particle] and i think we can get a side-effect-free begin working quickly
19:25 fglock kp6 really needs the side-effects
19:25 [particle] but we definitely won't have full begin support tomorrow
19:28 pmurias [particle]: it depends on how much parrot contributors you can get to stay up hacking all night ;)
19:29 fglock is there a short-term plan to implement BEGIN in perl6?
19:29 [particle] we can get side-effect-free begin quickly, probably today.
19:29 [particle] but full begin, no short term plan i know of
19:30 [particle] pmurias: i'm willing to try that :)
19:35 fglock [particle]: I'm trying to find out what PIR commands to use for implementing BEGIN blocks
19:36 fglock eg, looking for modified lexical variables
19:39 [particle] find_lex ?
19:40 fglock hmm - you mean to compare all variables in scope?
19:42 fglock sorry, i need to leave - back in 2hr, i hope &
19:42 [particle] cya
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19:54 ferreira pugs: 1..6
19:54 exp_evalbot RESULT[(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)]
19:55 ferreira pugs: 1 ^.. 6
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19:55 exp_evalbot RESULT[(2, 3, 4, 5, 6)]
19:55 ferreira pugs: 1 ^..^ 6
19:55 exp_evalbot RESULT[(2, 3, 4, 5)]
19:55 ferreira pugs: 1 ..^ 6
19:55 exp_evalbot RESULT[(1, 2, 3, 4, 5)]
19:55 ferreira ^6
19:55 ferreira pugs; ^6
19:56 REPLeffect missed the semicolon there.
19:56 REPLeffect I mean, colon.
19:57 ferreira pugs: ^6 ;
19:57 exp_evalbot RESULT[(0.0, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0)]
19:57 ferreira just wrote a micro-article about range operators: http://feather.perl6.nl/~ferrei​ra/perl6-operators/ranges.html
19:57 lambdabot Title: ranges.pod6
19:57 REPLeffect Yeah, I just read it :-)
19:58 ferreira REPLeffect: thanks
19:58 REPLeffect np
19:58 ferreira and another about the conditional (ternary) operator: http://feather.perl6.nl/~ferrei​ra/perl6-operators/ternary.html
19:59 lambdabot Title: ternary.pod6
19:59 ferreira and about negated operators: http://feather.perl6.nl/~ferrei​ra/perl6-operators/negate.html
19:59 lambdabot Title: negate.pod6
19:59 ferreira they are fun to write when you are in the mood
20:12 rhr ferreira: ^$limit  #   0 ..^ $limit-1 should be either 0 ..^ $limit or 0 .. $limit-1
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20:23 Auzon pugs: May .. Dec
20:23 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&May"␤    at /tmp/zAmiRBzdf4 line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
20:23 Auzon pugs: May..Dec
20:23 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&May"␤    at /tmp/s4QFHzxIIb line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
20:23 Auzon pugs: ^4
20:24 exp_evalbot RESULT[(0.0, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0)]
20:24 Auzon pugs: .say for ^4
20:24 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[0␤1␤2␤3␤]
20:25 Auzon pugs: $_ = "qwerty"; tr/a..z/A..Z/;
20:25 exp_evalbot RESULT[\"QWERTY"]
20:25 Auzon Neat
20:38 ferreira rhr: fixed - it seems like I am not learning what I am writing :(
20:39 ferreira Auzon: that examples is from S03 and presupposes some decl of an enum or something like it
20:40 ferreira Auzon: ".say for ^4" is so beautiful that I replaced the more explicit version with it
20:40 Auzon Neat. :)
20:41 Auzon I had to make sure postfix 'for' would've worked ;)
20:43 Auzon pugs: $_ = "stuff"; $_->HOW;
20:43 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "->"␤    expecting "::", term postfix or operator␤    at /tmp/kPII3x6F4k line 1, column 17␤]
20:43 Auzon Yay.
20:45 ferreira pugs: my  enum Months «:Jan(1) Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec»
20:45 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[decodeUTF8': bad data: '\171'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\187'␤*** ␤    Unexpected "Months"␤    expecting ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/xJr51Wn92g line 1, column 10␤]
20:45 Auzon Is it choking on the << ?
20:45 Auzon pugs: my  enum Months <<:Jan(1) Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec>>
20:45 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "Months"␤    expecting ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/kfsqX0TDVO line 1, column 10␤]
20:46 [particle] do you need a sigil?
20:46 ferreira it looks enum declarations are not ready yet (in pugs, at least)
20:46 ferreira this is from S09
20:46 Auzon kp6: my  enum Months <<:Jan(1) Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec>>
20:46 Auzon Uh oh. Did I break it?
20:47 [particle] i think it's just slower
20:47 exp_evalbot r19226: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 70, line 1 column 70:␤my  enum Months <<:Jan(1) Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec>␤                                                                      ^ HERE␤]
20:47 Auzon It didn't like it at all...
20:47 ferreira pugs: enum <<:Jan(1) Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec>>
20:47 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&enum"␤    at /tmp/u77vm5u4JT line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
20:48 ferreira hm, in Pugs tests, enum are marked :todo - so by now, no toying around unless we implemented it
20:49 Auzon Makes sense.
20:51 Auzon pugs: $_ = "abcdefg"; $_ =~ s/[aeg]//g;
20:51 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "s"␤    There is no =~ operator in Perl 6 -- did you mean ~~ (match) or ~= (concat-assign)?␤    at /tmp/JTJUkVlA1R line 1, column 23␤]
20:51 Auzon pugs: $_ = "abcdefg"; $_ = s/[aeg]//g;
20:51 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "g"␤    expecting term postfix or operator␤    at /tmp/huYgKDzq1m line 1, column 31␤]
20:51 ferreira pugs: a . b
20:51 Auzon pugs: $_ = "abcdefg"; $_ = s:each/[aeg]//;
20:52 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected " b"␤    expecting ".", "\187", ">>", "=", "^", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "--", "++", "i", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript␤    at /tmp/wqFuQSAJMC line 1, column 4␤]
20:52 exp_evalbot RESULT[\{subst}]
20:52 ferreira pugs: 1 . b
20:52 ferreira pugs: 1 . 2
20:52 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "."␤    expecting operator␤    at /tmp/qWta1CIU8I line 1, column 3␤]
20:52 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "."␤    expecting operator␤    at /tmp/3jY3vqYYWp line 1, column 3␤]
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20:53 Auzon pugs: $_ = "abcdefg"; $_ ~~ s:each/[aeg]//;
20:53 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Cannot parse regex: [aeg]␤*** Error: ␤]
20:53 Auzon Hm...
20:53 Auzon pugs: $_ = "abcdefg"; $_ ~~ s/a//;
20:54 exp_evalbot RESULT[Bool::True]
20:54 Auzon :-/
20:54 [particle] <[aeg]>
20:54 Auzon pugs: $_ = "abcdefg"; $_ ~~ s/<[aeg]>//; $_;
20:54 Auzon Thanks :)
20:54 exp_evalbot RESULT[\"abcdefg"]
20:54 Auzon Hm.
20:57 Auzon pugs: $_ = "abcdefg"; $_.subst(/a/, "q");
20:57 exp_evalbot RESULT[\"qbcdefg"]
20:57 Auzon I guess that's kind of nice.
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21:42 thoughtpolice ispy_: ping?
21:42 lambdabot thoughtpolice: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:43 ispy_ thoughtpolice: sup dude.
21:43 ispy_ checking my messages...
21:43 ispy_ thoughtpolice: What's up?
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21:50 thoughtpolice ispy_: since you're interested in contributing as via messages, would you like some credentials to post? :)
21:51 ispy_ thoughtpolice: yes I would :)
21:51 ispy_ I'll follow any guidelines you have, of course... I would just like to help the tutorial grow, it's an excellent resource.
21:52 thoughtpolice ispy_: if it has to do with perl 6 (related stuff works too, announcements/project updates etc,) it's allowed. :)
21:53 thoughtpolice generally the income bringer will be the resources/tutorials, though.
21:53 ispy_ of course.
21:53 thoughtpolice ispy_: pm me an email and I'll send an invite to be an author. feel free to contribute immediately. :)
21:53 ispy_ Excellent, thank you.
21:54 ispy_ Ok, back to work for me! Thanks thoughtpolice.
21:54 thoughtpolice sent! :)
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