Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-01-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:07 meppuru good night
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05:54 pugs_svn r19311 | duff++ | Tests for while and until loops
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09:07 diakopter howdy
09:08 moritz_ hi diakopter
09:08 moritz_ happy new moose!
09:08 moritz_ erm, year
09:08 moritz_ whatever ;)
09:11 diakopter each year ever always gets less new.  Therefore, happy Newest Year to you!
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10:39 pugs_svn r19312 | ruoso++ | [yap6] NOTES_AUTOVIVIFY.txt now have a very structured summary of my doubts...
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10:40 ruoso any help with the problem described in http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/​v6/yap6/NOTES_AUTOVIVIFY.txt
10:40 ruoso is very much appreciated
10:42 pugs_svn r19313 | ruoso++ | [yap6] fixing a small confused writing.
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10:47 Schwern Is there a "negative smart match" operator?
10:47 Schwern Ahh, !~~
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13:53 pmurias ruoso: foo(%a<b><c>) shouldn't autovivify
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13:58 pmurias ruoso: i'm not sure S06 appears to be contradictory
13:58 pmurias 1161
13:58 avar should p6 autovify anything at all? I thought that was explicitly dropped
13:59 pmurias avar: see S06:1161
14:00 pmurias avar: i think only formats were droped everything else was just changed
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14:00 pmurias with changed being improved
14:01 avar magic was dropped
14:01 moritz_ ... except implementation speed ;)
14:01 pmurias avar: no it isn't
14:01 avar although now presumably everything will now have magic slowness ...
14:01 avar or maybe not, since we have :=
14:02 pmurias moritz_: wait till we implement static typing and translate to C ;)
14:02 moritz_ pmurias: but static typing is optional, no? ;-)
14:02 pmurias moritz_: yes
14:03 pmurias avar: the implementating speed drop in kp6-MOP was caused by reimplementing everything on *top* of the existing runtime
14:04 avar MOP is p6 now?
14:04 moritz_ so is there a hope of making a faster, bootstrapped kp6?
14:04 avar I'm still waiting for more MOP/PAD stuff to be bootstrapped until I hack lisp again:)
14:05 pmurias avar: i mean kp6-MOP as the perl5 backend as opposed to the perl5v6 backend
14:05 avar is perl5v6 generally faster now?
14:06 pmurias avar: it's incomplete
14:06 avar but for the stuff it works for?
14:07 pmurias it's similar to perl5
14:08 pmurias that is if you do *not* use :=
14:09 moritz_ so does a 'perl Makefile.PL; make' build and test kp6-mp6 or kp6-kp6?
14:09 pmurias moritz_: kp6-mp6
14:09 pmurias kp6-kp6 dosn't work
14:10 pmurias moritz_: it only builds kp6-mp6 if you changed it (it's prebuild in the repo)
14:11 pmurias avar: := is not avalibe in perl5 so it's done with Data::Bind
14:12 pmurias i mean := is only avalible for globals (typeglob manipulation)
14:48 ruoso pmurias, S09 makes me uncertain
14:48 ruoso utovivification will only happen if the vivifiable path is used as a container, by binding, assigning, or capturing into an argument list.
14:48 * ruoso meant quotes aroud it
14:49 ruoso but I'm not sure if "capturing into an argument list" only means \%a<b><c> and not foo(%a<b><c>)
14:49 ruoso because in theory
14:50 ruoso foo(%a<b><c>) is the same as my $c = \%a<b><c>; foo(|$c);
14:50 ruoso and \%a<b><c> autovivifies
14:52 ruoso the thing is... if \%a<b><c> didn't autovivify,
14:52 ruoso the autovivification could be in the binding
14:52 ruoso and than
14:53 ruoso foo(%a<b><c>) would autovivify only if the signature was readwrite
14:53 ruoso the same as
14:53 ruoso my $a is ro; $a := %a<b><c>; wouldn't autovivify
14:53 ruoso but considering \%a<b><c> autovivifies,
14:53 ruoso it means that the capture is the one who triggers the autovivification
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14:53 ruoso and not the binding
14:58 ruoso moritz_, I bet on the yap6 runtime for a faster bootstrapped kp6
14:58 moritz_ ruoso: I hope it is (and works ;)
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15:00 ruoso fglock, I think I'll consider the capture as the autovivifier
15:00 ruoso I can't think in anything more appropriate right now
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15:02 fglock ruoso: how about write some actual tests
15:02 fglock in pugs/t
15:02 ruoso let me see something
15:02 fglock so we can submit more easily to @larry
15:03 ruoso pugs: my %a; my $b := %a<b><c>; say %a.elems
15:03 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
15:03 ruoso pugs: my %a; my $b = \%a<b><c>; say %a.elems
15:03 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
15:04 ruoso sub foo { 1 }; my %a; foo(%a<b><c>); say %a.elems
15:04 ruoso pugs:sub foo { 1 }; my %a; foo(%a<b><c>); say %a.elems
15:04 ruoso pugs: sub foo { 1 }; my %a; foo(%a<b><c>); say %a.elems
15:04 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
15:04 ruoso pugs: my %a; my $b = %a<b><c>; say %a.elems
15:04 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
15:04 ruoso hmm
15:05 moritz_ pugs: my %a; my $b = %a<b><c>; say %a.keys.elems
15:05 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
15:05 moritz_ pugs: my %a; my $b = %a<b><c>; say %a.perl
15:05 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[{("b" => {}),}␤]
15:05 ruoso fglock, actually I just need a clarificatoin of the spec...
15:06 ruoso does the "capturing into an argument list" includes "foo(%a<b><c>)"?
15:06 ruoso I would think so
15:06 fglock ruoso: writing a test is a great way to formulate the right questions, just show the test
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15:14 fglock re asking the right questions, I'm going to give a short talk today about the Perl 6 project
15:14 fglock pasting...
15:14 pasteling "fglock" at 81.193.158.177 pasted "Perl 6 talk - draft" (84 lines, 959B) at http://sial.org/pbot/29561
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15:18 pugs_svn r19314 | ruoso++ | [pugs/t] autovivification test. Needs checking against the specs
15:19 ruoso fglock, take a look at pugs/t/autovivification.t
15:19 fglock ok
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15:22 pmurias ruoso: dosn't exists bind to a capture object?
15:23 ruoso pmurias, in fact... exists is a method
15:24 ruoso but, it's differn
15:24 ruoso different
15:24 ruoso because exists takes the hash as invocant and the key as argument
15:26 pmurias so exists is a macro?
15:26 fglock ruoso: how about adding a subroutine with readonly parameters - I think it doesn't autovivify, or does it?
15:26 ruoso fglock,
15:26 ruoso the thing is
15:26 ruoso if \%a<b><c> autovivifies
15:26 ruoso it doesn't matter to what it is bound to
15:27 ruoso because my $a = \%a<b><c> is not a binding
15:27 fglock I mean, if you add a test for it, you can get an "official" ruling on it
15:29 ruoso fglock, but the problem is before that
15:30 ruoso how is foo(%a<b><c>); different from my $b = \%a<b><c>; foo(|$b); ?
15:30 ruoso that is the question right now
15:31 fglock a possible difference is, in "foo(%a<b><c>)", the "capturization" can be optimized out
15:31 ruoso fglock, no, it can't
15:31 ruoso because you only bind to the signature at that exact time
15:32 ruoso you must create a cature, so you can bind to the signature
15:32 ruoso s/cature/capture/
15:32 ruoso fglock, at least, if it can, it can't change the behaviour
15:33 ruoso the capture is the thing you pass to the method call
15:34 ruoso if foo(%a<b><c>) doens't autovivify... \%a<b><c> must be a special kind of capture
15:34 ruoso like... anonymous capture, for instance...
15:36 ruoso and then this special capture would trigger the autovivification in advance
15:36 ruoso even before the binding
15:37 ruoso and the regular capture would only autovivify if bound to a rw value...
15:37 ruoso it actually makes sense
15:43 ruoso pmurias, I think you raised the key issue
15:43 ruoso foo(%a<b><c>) can't autovivify in advance
15:43 ruoso because if so, exists would autovivify also
15:44 ruoso the only option left, is to treat \%a<b><c> as special
15:44 ruoso so the prefix:<\> would create a special capture
15:44 ruoso that triggers the autovivification in advance, even before bind
15:44 ruoso while the normal capture won't do anything, and the triggering is made only during binding
15:45 ruoso and only if the signature points to a rw variable
15:45 * ruoso will change that test to reflect that
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15:48 ruoso and I think I'm calling it anon capture
15:48 ruoso heh
15:48 pugs_svn r19315 | ruoso++ | [pugs/t] autovivification test for the autovivication on bind and on anon capture.
15:50 ruoso then a ruling is needed on the anon capture thing...
15:50 ruoso does prefix:<\> triggers the autovivification?
15:51 ruoso it actually makes much sense
15:53 ruoso fglock, so, what do you think?
15:54 fglock on one hand, you could assume that the Capture attributes bind to the variables, which makes them autovivify
15:55 fglock but you can also consider Capture a low-level thing, so that binding doesn't apply there
15:55 fglock Capture attributes == .positional, .named, .invocant
15:55 ruoso fglock, the thing is that Capture is both low-level and high-level, it's present in all levels
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16:12 pugs_svn r19316 | ruoso++ | [yap6] I think the problem is solved now. see NOTES_AUTOVIVIFY.txt
16:14 ruoso fglock, TimToady, I think I got to the solution... please take a look at http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/​v6/yap6/NOTES_AUTOVIVIFY.txt
16:15 pugs_svn r19317 | ruoso++ | [yap6] giving the text a little title
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16:28 mncharity fglock: ping?
16:29 fglock mncharity: pong
16:31 fglock estou?   # Portuguese phone greeting
16:32 mncharity re "What can we do about it?"/"unblock",
16:32 mncharity lol # re estou?
16:32 mncharity and apropos ruoso's questions,
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16:33 mncharity it seems like there is a body of knowledge in between what is in the sNN, and what an implementer needs to write an implementation.
16:34 mncharity knowledge which is not in sNN because it is speculative,
16:34 mncharity or just haven't gotten around to including it??,
16:35 fglock some things are implementation details, but they are high-level enough that all implementations need to worry about
16:35 mncharity or ... I don't know why.
16:36 mncharity ah, right
16:37 fglock such as, there are some compile-time structures that you need to have, in order to implement blocks that run at compile-time
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16:38 mncharity interesting
16:38 mncharity once upon a time, the story was that the hs pugs code would be so clear, it would be the "reference" implementation, the documentation, for such things
16:39 pmurias ;)
16:39 fglock I did use the pugs source for kp6 ast
16:40 PerlJam mncharity: you sure have an active imagination :)
16:40 fglock I think it was the ast proposed by gaal, not the actual pugs ast
16:42 mncharity re imagination, I'm not sure re what, but :)
16:42 fglock mncharity: I believe it could be the reference implementation,
16:42 fglock but it never got the required cleanup
16:43 ruoso mncharity, the thing is that some data structures are too important and interfere in all the language behaviour... like the capture...
16:43 mncharity re ast, and kp6 as the current reference implementation, right.
16:43 ruoso capture is something which is used from bottom-up in all levels
16:43 mncharity re required cleanup, ?
16:44 mncharity re capture, i'm wondering if there might be a "block" there.  that it is still too hard for potential implementers to sit down and say "ok, I have the spec here, so I can now 'mindlessly' churn out a new implementation in language X".
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16:46 mncharity one has to do a lot of research, search the mailinglist, learn the pugs and kp6 code, ask questions, ...
16:46 fglock cleanup: regex engine, object system - and then macros and such (as in the pugs roadmap)
16:46 mncharity ah, right
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16:49 fglock I understand you are talking about new contributors, but we already have a good number of "old" contributors that could be driven in some useful (same) direction
16:51 mncharity good point
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16:55 mncharity I guess it feels like "it shouldn't be this hard".
16:56 mncharity when the spec was missing key bits, implementation required an exploratory dialog with TimToady.
16:56 mncharity but it seems like at least most of that got filled in, no?
16:57 mncharity at least for something "perl6-like" rather than "perl 6 official spec".
16:58 mncharity sure, p6 is big and complex, but... so are lots of other things which get written.
16:58 fglock yes, Perl 6 is much easier to implement now
16:58 fglock and one can start with the kp6 framework and rewrite just what he doesn't agree with :P
16:59 fglock we are mostly blocking on VM features right now
17:01 fglock VM == Parrot | Perl5 | C | Lisp
17:02 mncharity phone, bbiab
17:03 fglock "perl6" is exploring the t/ space - "what can we implement without blocking?"
17:03 pmurias fglock: is it possible to turn of vivification in perl5?
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17:04 fglock kp6 has been exploring the work-arounds - "what can we emulate?"
17:04 [particle] those are complimentary exploration spaces
17:04 fglock pmurias: I don't know - look in CPAN?
17:04 pmurias s/of/off/
17:05 fglock [particle]: they are, and that's why we can profit from working together
17:05 [particle] i agree completely
17:07 fglock actually, "perl6" needs to push Parrot to unblock, and kp6 needs even more emulation layers
17:07 [particle] did you see set_outer is implemented now?
17:08 fglock I didn't - cool :)
17:08 fglock is there a test?
17:08 [particle] i'm not sure
17:08 [particle] i'll check the log, find the rev, and let you know
17:09 fglock nm, I'll look
17:09 [particle] yes, t/pmc/sub.t
17:09 [particle] svn diff -c 24453
17:12 [particle] it's not tested, but you should be able to get a sub from another namespace, too
17:13 fglock very nice - I have some test code already, I'll try it out later
17:14 [particle] let me know how it goes
17:14 [particle] i'm doing some test refactoring today
17:15 fglock hmm - my test doesn't try an eval() yet
17:18 fglock [particle]: I added a parrot/ inside the kp6 repo, so that I can have my patches there - it mirrors the parrot directory structure
17:18 [particle] ah, yes, i remember that
17:18 [particle] how do you merge?
17:18 fglock (but ignore the current content, it's obsolete)
17:19 [particle] ok
17:19 mncharity sorry.  back
17:19 fglock I wrote a merge script
17:19 fglock (I don't have a parrot commit bit)
17:20 fglock I'll tell you if I come up with anything useful :)
17:22 mncharity re "yes, Perl 6 is much easier to implement now",
17:23 mncharity would it help if it was even easier?
17:23 [particle] of course it would help :)
17:24 fglock mncharity: no, we need some challenge :P
17:24 mncharity lol
17:24 [particle] :D
17:24 mncharity oy
17:24 * mncharity finally stops laughing
17:24 mncharity almost
17:25 fglock mncharity: ok, I give up - how would you make it easier?
17:25 mncharity I mean, if there was a page somewhere saying "this is all you need to know about implementing a Signature object",
17:26 [particle] "far more than everything you wanted to know about lexical pads"
17:26 mncharity it might make new implementations easier, but if the problem is finishing existing implementations which already have a Sig object,
17:26 mncharity then it's not clear it would really help.
17:26 mncharity ?
17:26 mncharity re how,
17:26 mncharity a page on Signature objects? ;)
17:27 fglock yes, we have some of these docs - it's just not properly organized
17:27 [particle] the organization would help, surely
17:28 [particle] just like we're reorganizing tests to make implementation easier
17:28 fglock such as http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/docs/notes/
17:28 lambdabot Title: Revision 19317: /docs/notes
17:29 [particle] there's a wealth of information out there, thanks mostly to pugs but also to kp6 and perl6 implementations. getting it organized so the various in-progress impls can help each other and learn from each other better is helpful
17:29 fglock and the "misc" docs under v6/
17:29 [particle] would also make a new impl easier to write
17:29 [particle] (technical debt)--
17:30 fglock we even have some Perl6-in-Perl6 source code  http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-Kin​daPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl6/
17:30 lambdabot Title: Revision 19317: /v6/v6-KindaPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl6, http://tinyurl.com/2q4n24
17:31 fglock and STD
17:32 fglock .set_outer unblocks kp6-parrot development for some time
17:33 [particle] yay!
17:34 fglock we will then need to find out how to freeze the compile-time lexical environment until run-time
17:35 fglock actually, we need some way to specify the lexical environment in the PAST
17:35 fglock hmm
17:38 fglock { my $x; BEGIN { $x=3 } print "$x\n" }     # we need a PAST representation for this
17:40 fglock { my $x; INIT { $x=3 } print "$x\n" }     # this would do, but it's hard to implement - and that's what kp6 does
17:42 fglock the alternative is to just freeze *everything* - smalltalk and some lisps do it this way
17:42 [particle] i think pmichaud has figured out what to do for that part
17:42 [particle] but i'm not certain of that
17:44 fglock I'd like to know
17:44 [particle] he should be back to #parrot soon
17:45 fglock I'm afraid I have a talk in a while - and I should be formatting it
17:47 [particle] oh, right. the notes looked good
17:47 fglock if we can figure the lexical thing, I think I can draft a plan
17:48 [particle] do you have subs written in perl 6 for kp6? where?
17:49 fglock the kp6 runtime at: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-Kin​daPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl6/
17:49 lambdabot Title: Revision 19317: /v6/v6-KindaPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl6, http://tinyurl.com/2q4n24
17:50 fglock where perl 6 == kp6
17:50 fglock it compiles most of it's own runtime
17:52 fglock Range and Pair are interesting
17:54 [particle] good examples, thanks!
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17:58 fglock btw, Capture and Signature are there too
17:58 fglock (the high-level methods)
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18:09 pugs_svn r19318 | particle++ | [t]: refactoring radix conversion tests for octals
18:12 dlocaus fglock: is there any code that needs to be documented or refactored?
18:12 fglock looking
18:14 fglock dlocaus: can you try to refactor Makefile.PL into something maintainable?
18:15 dlocaus ok
18:15 fglock cool :)
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18:16 fglock dlocaus: we've been adding even more experimental backends
18:16 dlocaus Perl5v6 and Perl5Cache I believe.
18:17 dlocaus After coming back from X'mas break, I find I'm a bit rusty on my kp6 (which wasn't all that good to being with :)
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18:21 fglock Perl5v6 (added recently) and yap6 (not added to Makefile yet)
18:22 dlocaus I thought yap6 was a C based Perl6 compiler?
18:22 fglock re rusty, nevermind - most of us are
18:22 fglock dlocaus: it is,
18:23 fglock it's kp6 compiled to C, with a C runtime
18:23 fglock will be
18:24 dlocaus I hate these onion layers (self bootstrapping)...
18:25 dlocaus Ok, I think I figured it out (again), the AST produces C code which can compile kp6.
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18:27 fglock yes
18:29 dlocaus brb, quick snack &
18:30 skids Without IO.fileno implemented, any "back door" way to get a file descriptor out of a pugs IO object?
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18:34 dlocaus back
18:35 dlocaus fglock: How do you feel about extracting the target make parameters into a YAML file?
18:36 fglock dlocaus: not sure, the thing we need most right now is flexibility
18:37 fglock keeping the params as plain code might be easier
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18:37 fglock dlocaus: I've been thinking about splitting the makefile, but there are also arguments against that
18:38 dlocaus (phone)
18:38 [particle] skids: iunno, i'm not familiar with that part of pugs
18:39 ruoso dlocaus, actually yap6 is not a compiler
18:39 ruoso fglock, ^
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18:39 ruoso kp6 will be the compiler forever
18:39 ruoso yap6 is just a kp6 backend
18:39 ruoso as perl5 is
18:42 dlocaus (sorry, phone call).
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18:43 dlocaus That is what I was thinking about the YAML file, we could get the parameters out of the Makefile.PL which would remove some of FUD when looking at the document.
18:43 dlocaus Let me write it up and then you can take a look at it.
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18:43 dlocaus Extracting the parameters out of the YAML file could "fake a split" of the Makefile :)
18:44 * skids wonders about future asynch IO api versus coro
18:45 skids IO.read(&callback_to_this_function); yield;
18:45 skids ...but how to ensure the callback doesn't happen before the yield...
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18:47 fglock dlocaus: fine
18:47 cognominal_ joined #perl6
18:48 fglock skids: sorry, what are you trying to do?
18:50 skids (hypothetically, since there is no async api yet) write coros that get woken up when their IOs complete -- which of course would be useless if you didn't have more than one of them at a time.
18:55 fglock makes sense
18:55 fglock pugs does have async
18:55 skids yep.  But regular expressions crash asyncs.
18:56 fglock hmm - they call perl5
18:57 skids In either case not sure which would be better -- several thousand asyncs or several thousand in-progress coros...
18:58 fglock it's implementation-dependent, I don't think you will know in advance
19:12 skids has the return value of yield been formally specced?
19:14 [particle] return value? i assume yield returns the results you pass it
19:14 [particle] yield($foo, $bar);
19:15 skids no that's the return value of the function in the place where the coro was called.  I'm talking about $foo = yield(*) inside the coro.
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19:19 pugs_svn r19319 | particle++ | [t]: refactoring radix conversion tests for decimals
19:21 skids My druthers would be that should return an argument capture of the params to the "second" call to the coro, which are currently discarded.
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19:26 pugs_svn r19320 | particle++ | [t]: refactoring radix conversion tests for hexadecimals
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19:34 pugs_svn r19321 | dlo++ | [kp6]
19:34 pugs_svn r19321 | dlo++ |
19:34 pugs_svn r19321 | dlo++ | fglock suggested I make Makefile.PL more maintainable.  I believe that the first step should be to extract the
19:34 pugs_svn r19321 | dlo++ | configuration settings for each build out of the Makefile.PL to reduce FUD.  The code is fairly long and difficult to
19:34 pugs_svn r19321 | dlo++ | read; by extracting the code into a YAML (targets.yml) file, this simplifies the code and makes it easier to read.
19:34 pugs_svn r19321 | dlo++ |
19:34 pugs_svn r19321 | dlo++ | The next step will be to sort out the pod creation.
19:34 pugs_svn r19321 | dlo++ |
19:34 pugs_svn r19321 | dlo++ | dlocaus @ #perl6 irc.freenode.net
19:35 dlocaus Lots of documentation for lots of brownie points.
19:36 dlocaus fglock: pmurias: moritz_: does anyone read the kp6 man pods?  I'm wondering if they should just be removed entirely from the Makefile.PL
19:40 fglock dlocaus: I read it once :P
19:41 pugs_svn r19322 | particle++ | [t]: refactoring radix conversion tests for binary, and fractions
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19:55 pmurias dlocaus: Perl5Cache has been removed
19:55 dlocaus pmurias: ok
19:58 pmurias dlocaus: re man pods the only make sense if you intall them
19:58 dlocaus Ok, I'll comment that line out in the next revision.
20:15 pugs_svn r19323 | dlo++ | [kp6]
20:15 pugs_svn r19323 | dlo++ |
20:15 pugs_svn r19323 | dlo++ | I have refactored the code into subroutines.  This has improved readability.
20:15 pugs_svn r19323 | dlo++ | I have also run perltidy over the Makefile.PL.
20:15 pugs_svn r19323 | dlo++ | I have also by default elimated the MAN3POD variable, man pages, as no one appears to be reading them.  I do not
20:15 pugs_svn r19323 | dlo++ | think there is even all that much documentation in there. :)
20:15 pugs_svn r19323 | dlo++ |
20:15 pugs_svn r19323 | dlo++ | dlocaus @ #perl6 irc.freenode.net
20:19 pugs_svn r19324 | dlo++ | [kp6] made the code neater, minor chagnes
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20:40 pugs_svn r19325 | dlo++ | [kp6]
20:40 pugs_svn r19325 | dlo++ |
20:40 pugs_svn r19325 | dlo++ | Refactored the code, removing unnecessary variables.
20:40 pugs_svn r19325 | dlo++ | Cleaned up the code some more.
20:40 pugs_svn r19325 | dlo++ | Put the licencing back end. (accidently removed it).
20:40 pugs_svn r19325 | dlo++ |
20:40 pugs_svn r19325 | dlo++ | dlocaus @ #perl6 irc.freenode.net
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20:45 pugs_svn r19326 | dlo++ | [kp6] Added licening and cleaned up the code
20:46 dlocaus lunch &, I will resume refactoring Makefile.PL when I get back.
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22:25 bnjmn-- perl6!!! do want!
22:25 pbuetow hehe
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