Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-01-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:11 pugs_svn r19538 | cosimo++ | Refactored `pick' tests under /t/spec/S29-list/
00:11 pugs_svn r19538 | cosimo++ | "Fudgified" :todo tests markers.
00:13 cosimo I'm marking todo tests now with "#?pugs"...
00:14 pugs_svn r19539 | cosimo++ | No more tests here. Destroying folder.
00:19 cosimo Guys, I *have* to have sleep now. It's 1:20 am here.
00:19 cosimo Good night to you all. God bless Perl6.
00:20 [particle] ~~
00:29 pugs_svn r19540 | cosimo++ | Refactored container.cat,roundrobin tests into /t/spec/S29-container.
00:29 pugs_svn r19540 | cosimo++ | Fudgifying of :todo test markers. ":depends" are now explained in
00:29 pugs_svn r19540 | cosimo++ | the test description.
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00:48 Coke depends?
00:48 Coke sure, feed the bot, get nothing. ^_^
00:48 [particle] what bot?
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00:55 Coke well, perhaps that's my problem.
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01:49 pugs_svn r19541 | lwall++ | [Test] allow todo 'feature', :by<6.28>
01:49 pugs_svn r19541 | lwall++ | [fudge] fix bracket bug on block todo
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03:06 diakopter rakudo_svn: um, work, please
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11:25 pugs_svn r19542 | ruoso++ | [smop] adding a repository for identifier constants in include/smop_identifiers.h
11:25 moritz_ @seen fglock
11:25 lambdabot I haven't seen fglock.
11:27 pugs_svn r19543 | ruoso++ | [smop] adding smop_identifiers reference on smop.h
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12:25 pugs_svn r19544 | ruoso++ | [smop] created a new test for the stack... this test already counts on the sm0p language already being used inside the C source to help define a set of stack nodes.
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12:33 pugs_svn r19545 | ruoso++ | [smop] changing the sm0p representation inside the C code to look just like Perl 6...
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13:00 fglock @messages
13:00 lambdabot mncharity said 17h 28m 12s ago: fyi: perl Makefile.PL kp6_mp6 "Please inform the author." error message: http://sial.org/pbot/29880
13:00 lambdabot mncharity said 17h 26m 41s ago: I didn't run make. Oops. Never mind. Thanks. pmurias++
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13:08 pugs_svn r19546 | ruoso++ | [smop] moving all builtin identifiers to the constant identifier repository in smop_identifiers.h. Changing every other identifier definition to a constant that points to the constant in identifiers.h. identifiers.h is included just after base.h
13:10 pugs_svn r19547 | ruoso++ | [smop] updating the destroy sm0p code to reflect the use of the constant identifiers
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14:48 fglock http://research.microsoft.com/users/bobmoore/    # parsing algorithms, perl5 implementations
14:48 lambdabot Title: Robert C. Moore - Natural Language Processing Group
14:50 fglock http://javascript.crockford.com/tdop/   # Top Down Operator Precedence, simplified Javascript impl (could be translated to mp6)
14:50 lambdabot Title: Top Down Operator Precedence
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15:13 pugs_svn r19548 | fglock++ | [kp6-ruby] say "hello, World"
15:17 alester The unhappiness has started: http://perlbuzz.com/2008/01/perl-6-o​n-parrot-is-now-known-as-rakudo.html
15:17 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 on Parrot is now known as Rakudo - Perl Buzz, http://tinyurl.com/ywcc5l
15:18 avar so we can use "onion" eh?
15:18 [particle] yep, you can use onion
15:18 [particle] andy: nice response.
15:19 avar We always could actually, we eat parrot developers
15:19 ruoso you know... there's a funny comment in that post
15:19 alester particle: I'm workin' on a doc explaining the differences.
15:20 ruoso saying that the perl6 name should be reserved from when perl5 is able to implement Perl 6
15:20 [particle] did you ever know that you're my hero?
15:20 ruoso :P
15:20 alester I am the wind that breaks beneath your wings.
15:20 [particle] ...then my wife *hates* you.
15:21 alester What'd I ever do to her?
15:21 [particle] you stink, man.
15:22 * ruoso anxious to have a usefull version of smop to see it it gets to the radar of Perl 6 implementations...
15:23 [particle] ruoso: you can put it on the radar... advertise!
15:25 ruoso heh
15:25 * ruoso hates advertising vaporware... I need to get at least something running before giving it a advertisement shot...
15:31 meppuru hm
15:31 meppuru rakudo sounds japanese
15:31 pugs_svn r19549 | ruoso++ | [smop] adding two other native types: idconst and bytes. idconst will be used to initialize the constant identifiers to be used in sm0p and s1p. Added a test for the const identifier.
15:31 [particle] because it is japanese
15:32 [particle] http://rakudo.org/
15:32 lambdabot Title: Rakudo.org:
15:32 alester ping rakudo.org
15:32 alester I must be the only one with rakudo.org resolving to petdance.com's IP
15:34 Coke that's not entirely surprising, since it's Andy's domain.
15:34 meppuru 楽土 らくど
15:34 alester You mean "your", right?
15:34 meppuru the paradise
15:35 alester o/` and we'll be rockin' the Paradise.... o/`
15:36 * Coke peers at alester's psuedo.
15:37 Coke "how was I supposed to know you'd be robbing your OWN HOUSE!?"
16:14 pugs_svn r19550 | ruoso++ | [smop] In theory, we have constant identifiers already... with the help of a little script that takes the smop_identifiers.h file and generate the code to init and destroy them...
16:14 * ruoso with his hands in his boot straps and ready to pull
16:16 pugs_svn r19551 | ruoso++ | [smop] adding the main smop.c file that have the smop_init and smop_destr functions...
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16:17 ruoso fglock, I think I'll need help on the sm0p part... to create an emitter for that...
16:18 ruoso and I still need some idea on the best way of putting a preprocessor before cpp
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16:21 fglock ok but coffee
16:21 ruoso coffe.HOW
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17:54 ruoso It's weird to realise that after reinventing the wheel you make it looking like someone else's
17:54 moritz_ lol
17:55 ruoso fglock just noticed the resemblances between smop and forth, which made me realise that smop use the same technique as the older forth compilers
17:55 ruoso indirect-threading
17:55 ruoso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th​readed_code#Indirect_threading
17:56 ruoso and even the implementation looks alike
17:56 ruoso http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/threading/
17:56 lambdabot Title: Index of /forth/threading
17:56 ruoso a benchmark... in the end there's a link to the code, which looks like how smop implements it...
17:57 ruoso the good news is that I was worried about smop performance, but according to wikipedia, indirect threading is "Faster than byte code."
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19:31 apple-gunkies Hi folks. I've read through S05 and A05, and am looking at the lolcode grammar, and still don't really understand: What, precisely, is supposed to be the difference between a rule and a token? Can someone explain, please?
19:32 moritz_ rule = token + :sigspace-modifier
19:32 moritz_ so regex = without modifiers
19:32 moritz_ token = implied :ratchet (backtracking control)
19:33 moritz_ rule = :ratchet :sigspace
19:33 moritz_ I think that's a FAQ by now - we should put it up somewhere ;)
19:33 apple-gunkies ok, simple then. Guess I was looking too hard for some profound difference. Thanks :)
19:34 apple-gunkies and yes, the synopsis doesn't really spell it out
19:34 pugs_svn r19552 | ruoso++ | [smop] a small exercise on how to transform sm0p code into C code... sm0p2C.txt...
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19:38 [particle] apple-gunkies: Just as C<rx> has variants, so does the C<regex> declarator.
19:38 [particle] In particular, there are two special variants for use in grammars:
19:38 [particle] C<token> and C<rule>.
19:39 [particle] from S05
19:39 [particle] granted, it's halfway down, buried in =head1 Regexes are now first-class language, not strings
19:39 pugs_svn r19553 | ruoso++ | [smop] sm0p2C.txt: uses gcc static anonymous array in the exercise code.
19:44 TimToady most of the synopses desperately need reorganizing, but I'm afraid to break smartlinks
19:45 moritz_ TimToady: it will not get better if you wait longer
19:45 TimToady I need something that chases smartlinks the other direction and tells me when I've broken one. :)
19:45 moritz_ let's rephrase it: if you reorganise the spec, I'll invest some time to unbreak the smart links
19:46 TimToady that's the other approach, yeah
19:46 * ruoso wonders how to create more room for optimizations in the smop stack... having to run a code like the one in sm0p2C.txt everytime entering a new stack frame...
19:46 TimToady but it's a convenient excuse when I don't want to admit having the time or energy :)
19:47 TimToady ruoso: are there any Forth implementations that do continuations?
19:48 TimToady s/any/any fast/
19:48 ruoso TimToady, I don't know Forth that much...
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19:49 TimToady it's just like Japanese, only with a different vocabulary
19:49 TimToady well, different writing system too...
19:50 ruoso hmmm.. as I don't know japanese, comparing them do make sense...
19:50 ruoso :P
19:50 wolverian are there millions of implementations of japanes, or only one (or a few variants)?
19:50 wolverian s/nes/nese/
19:52 TimToady I dunno, but most of them are pretty fast implementions, faster than my brain can process
19:52 ruoso But I'm trully concerned about the possible performance impact of the dynamic and polymorphic eval of smop
19:52 ruoso TimToady, take a look at the sm0p2C.txt file
19:52 ruoso that's the code that will be run everytime...
19:53 ruoso because the stack nodes are dynamic
19:53 [particle] ...every time an opcode farts?
19:53 ruoso everytime a new recursion in the stack is needed
19:53 ruoso unless some optimization is made
19:53 ruoso I just need to make sure I leave room for it
19:54 TimToady where's Lisp when you need it?
19:54 [particle] (here(right))
19:54 ruoso at least I feel that sm0p is usefull... having to write that C code seems awful
19:55 ruoso it actually *was* awful to write the exercise
19:56 TimToady You can solve any problem in computer science with another level of indirection, except for the problem of too many levels of indirection. :)
19:56 ruoso heahahaehe
19:56 ruoso indeed..
19:57 ruoso but I feel like there is some way to optimize it...
19:57 ruoso I just can't see it clearly right now
19:58 ruoso and I feel unconfortable to keep going without knowing that there's actually room to optimize it...
19:58 TimToady well, you probably need more contextual information on where continuations are guaranteed to be single-use
19:58 ruoso I was thiking about some long-living constant copy of that structure that is then clonned in a more efficient way
20:00 TimToady but I'm not really an expert on CPS
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20:00 ruoso TimToady, CPS is not the big deal here..
20:00 ruoso but the whole stack thing
20:00 pmurias ruoso: is it worth to have everything stackless?
20:01 ruoso pmurias, other way the C stack would bite me
20:01 ruoso at some point
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20:01 ruoso when trying to implement continuation for instance...
20:01 ruoso because I would have to mix the C stack with the Perl stack
20:02 ruoso and that seems very hard to keep up
20:03 pmurias i wander about keeping the c level stackfull and the layer in bytecode in stackles
20:03 ruoso it's hard to bootstrap the oo system that way
20:05 apple-gunkies particle: I had stepped away, thanks for following up. I had thought that regex and rule were synonymous. It all makes more sense now;)
20:05 integral (chicken scheme does some tricks to use the C stack, yet do GC and continuations)
20:05 TimToady googling for "efficient cps continuation" gives some interesting hits
20:06 cosimo Hi all!
20:08 moritz_ hi cosimo
20:08 cosimo I'm sorry, I'm always breaking in with some newbie question... :-)
20:09 cosimo Even this time :)
20:09 cosimo Given this code:
20:10 cosimo if $?PUGS_BACKEND ne "BACKEND_PUGS" {
20:10 cosimo skip_rest "PIL2JS and PIL-Run do not support eval() yet.";
20:10 cosimo exit;
20:10 cosimo }
20:10 cosimo Is it correct to replace it with #?pugs: skip 'reason'    with a block?
20:11 cosimo I don't think they have the same meaning...
20:11 moritz_ since PIL2JS and PIL-Run are bit-rotten, you can just ignore that block
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20:12 moritz_ aka delete it
20:12 cosimo thx
20:12 moritz_ in the cleaned-up version
20:13 pmurias svk-- #behaving strangly (mergin stuff which hasn't changed)
20:14 * ruoso going home &
20:15 * ruoso have to take his mind in order...
20:17 pugs_svn r19554 | cosimo++ | Refactored eval tests, moved under t/spec/S29-context/
20:17 pugs_svn r19554 | cosimo++ | Ignored old PIL2JS/PIL2Run backends notice, they are no more used, it seems.
20:19 pugs_svn r19555 | cosimo++ | Refactored 'defined' builtin tests, moved under t/spec/S29-scalar
20:21 pugs_svn r19556 | cosimo++ | Refactored 'die' builtin tests, moved under t/spec/S29-context
20:22 pugs_svn r19557 | cosimo++ | Refactored 'die' builtin tests, moved under t/spec/S29-context
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21:17 pugs_svn r19558 | cosimo++ | Refactored evalfile tests under t/spec/S29-context
21:30 cosimo Are these tests relevant anymore? http://perlsix.org/svn/pugs/view/t/​builtins/control_flow/exit-in-if.t
21:30 lambdabot Title: view: /pugs/t/builtins/control_flow/exit-in-if.t (Rev: HEAD, via SVN::Web), http://tinyurl.com/2ohtud
21:30 cosimo http://perlsix.org/svn/pugs/view​/t/builtins/control_flow/exit.t
21:30 lambdabot Title: view: /pugs/t/builtins/control_flow/exit.t (Rev: HEAD, via SVN::Web)
21:31 moritz_ looking...
21:31 moritz_ I seen no reason why they shouldn't be relevant
21:32 moritz_ look like old pugs regressions, but other implementations might run into the same errors
21:32 cosimo They seem to be about PIL2JS
21:32 moritz_ but they test valid perl 6
21:32 cosimo ok!
21:37 pmichaud I've been thinking that specific compiler regressions could go into a regressions.t
21:38 pmichaud it would still get run by all implementations, but might make the test organizations a bit easier
21:38 pugs_svn r19559 | cosimo++ | Refactored exit and nothing tests into t/spec/S29-context
21:39 cosimo pmichaud: by implementation you mean pugs, rakudo, and such..?
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21:40 pmichaud cosimo: yes
21:40 [particle] as in, t/spec/S29-misc/regressions.t ??
21:40 pmichaud well, it could even be t/spec/S29-context/regressions.t
21:41 [particle] ok, sure
21:41 pmichaud it depends a bit on the test... if it looks 'funny' with respect to the other tests, then perhaps it belongs in regressions.t
21:44 pmichaud Andy++ # "you can't declare a de facto standard"
21:44 alester Heh, thanks.
21:44 pmichaud that's a wonderful comment/insight
21:45 meppuru good night
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21:50 pmichaud afk -- heading home
21:50 alester pmichaud: Seriously.
21:51 alester We could say "This is the official Perl 6", but everyone's free to ignore it.
21:52 pugs_svn r19560 | cosimo++ | Refactored time-related function tests into t/spec/S29-time/
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21:57 pugs_svn r19561 | cosimo++ | Fudge-ified :todo tests
21:57 pugs_svn r19562 | moritz++ | Test suite refactoring:
21:57 pugs_svn r19562 | moritz++ |   * move ignorecase regex modifier tests to t/spec/S05-modifier/*
21:57 pugs_svn r19562 | moritz++ |     (still need more tests here)
21:57 pugs_svn r19562 | moritz++ |   * small correctiion in t/builtins/math/log.t
22:01 pugs_svn r19563 | cosimo++ | Added all t/builtins/hashes/exists.t tests to existing
22:01 pugs_svn r19563 | cosimo++ | spec/S29-hash exist tests.
22:02 [particle] (test refactoring)++
22:04 pugs_svn r19564 | cosimo++ | Refactored and merged existing hash.delete() tests
22:04 pugs_svn r19564 | cosimo++ | with spec/S29-hash/delete.t tests
22:07 pugs_svn r19565 | cosimo++ | Moved system() test script under t/spec/S29-os/
22:11 pugs_svn r19566 | moritz++ | moved :basechar tests to t/spec/S05-modifier/basechar.t
22:11 pugs_svn r19567 | cosimo++ | Refactored isa hash tests into t/spec/S29-hash/
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22:16 pugs_svn r19568 | moritz++ | test for repetition modifier under t/spec/
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22:20 pugs_svn r19569 | moritz++ | moved tests for the :continue regex modifier
22:21 [particle] i like that this test refactoring means nobody's tests will work right until utils/fudge is ready :)
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22:22 cosimo :-)
22:22 moritz_ [particle]: I thought it already handles the simple cases?
22:22 [particle] moritz_: it did, until everything changed
22:22 [particle] so now it doesn't handle any cases
22:23 [particle] i mean, no implementation handles #?<impl>: todo
22:23 moritz_ but fudge does the for the implementation, doesn't it?
22:23 moritz_ of course it's not yet integrated into the "make smoke" thingy
22:23 [particle] never tried it
22:24 [particle] i've been meaning to, but too few cycles
22:24 cosimo [particle]: maybe I should change {#?<impl>: todo} with {#?<impl>: todo ''}   ?
22:25 [particle] cosimo: i don't think that'll matter
22:25 [particle] in any case, rakudo hasn't been tested with fudge
22:26 [particle] larry may have tested pugs, iunno
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22:33 moritz_ a small question of spec interpretation: my $s = "aB "; $s =~ s:ii/.*/abcd/; should $s now be "aBcd" or "aBcD"?
22:34 moritz_ so if the last matched char has no case information, is the rest of the substition string left unchanged?
22:37 [particle] i'd hope the rest is left unchanged.
22:37 moritz_ ok
22:43 pugs_svn r19570 | moritz++ | Added tests for the :ii modifier
22:44 cosimo and good night #perl6
22:44 moritz_ good night cosimo ;)
22:44 Auzon gnight!
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22:53 pugs_svn r19571 | moritz++ | tests for the "smart" :ii modifier
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23:54 mncharity perl script/kp6 -Cruby -e 'say "hello, world!"' :)  fglock++

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