Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-01-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:11 pugs_svn r19677 | lwall++ | [Test.pm] typo
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01:04 xinming se noai
01:04 xinming a.:se ai
01:04 xinming oops, sorry, I'm testing my keyboard. >_<
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01:18 avar does the ruby backend have no runtime files?
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02:38 mncharity hi avar :)
02:38 mncharity re does the ruby backend have no runtime files?, just...
02:39 mncharity compiled/ruby-kp6-mp6/kp6_runtime.rb
02:39 avar it would be better to keep it in src/ :)
02:41 pugs_svn r19678 | putter++ | [kp6] ruby backend: update todo.  2 more tests pass.
02:43 mncharity indeed.  I deferred the task of determining if make would automagically copy it, and if not, of fighting with make.  also makes the edit test cycle one step shorter. :)  feel free to move it.
02:44 mncharity v6-KindaPerl6/docs/ruby_backend.txt is actually pretty much up to date.
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02:45 avar mm, does kp6-kp6 even run?
02:46 mncharity kp6-kp6?  looking...
02:47 avar 'r|runtime=s' => \( $opt{runtime} = 'mp6' ),    # or 'kp6'
02:47 avar re the ruby_backend.txt doc
02:47 avar I thought the biggest obstacle to kp6-kp6 was getting kp6-kp6 to bootstrap at all
02:49 mncharity avar: re biggest obstacle, I sure hope not.  fglock said it was performance.  no?
02:53 avar Yeah, but to be honest I think that's a bit whack:)
02:54 mncharity hmm... do you have a feel for what aspect of the bootstrap isn't quite working?
02:54 mncharity :)
02:54 avar I mean, -Ofun and all but it was never so bad that it was actually very hard to hack it since you can do small parts at a time, and it's much easier IMO to optimize once you have something slow and working than fast and nonfunctional
02:55 avar I haven't hacked in a while but part of the runtime is still in p5
02:55 avar so those parts are obviously not bootstrapped:)
02:55 mncharity lol
02:56 mncharity p5 runtime i'm not so worried about.  rb gives a much higher floor to stand on, and then is arguably a better language to hack it in.  I'm more worried about
02:57 mncharity kp6's p6 code being non- or incorrectly parsed/compiled, for subtle reasons that require kp6 debugging.
02:58 avar the p5 runtime is the most complete, and as long as parts of it are in pure-p5 as opposed to p6 that means we don't have bootstrap
03:00 mncharity my understanding is the kp6-mp6 applied to the kp6 p6 source, emits p5 code which is unusably glacial.  no?
03:00 avar yeah
03:01 avar or so I've heard, I can't remember the last time I ran it, or if I ever did
03:02 mncharity so the hypothesis was that kp6-mp6 applied to the kp6 p6 source might conceivably emit ruby which was non-glacial.
03:03 pugs_svn r19679 | avar++ | use $^X not perl
03:04 mncharity ruby oo being both faster than p5 oo, and hypothetically being close enough to p6 that it can be used somewhat directly, rather than requiring a somewhat heavy additional layer on top of the native oo.
03:07 mncharity This exercise is only useful if (1) a replacement of mp6 by the ruby backend is not very difficult, (2) the result is faster than mp6, (3) there are folks pursuing kp6 development whom this would help.
03:07 avar $ perl script/kp6 -r kp6 t/kp6/01-tap.t
03:07 avar Bareword "DISPATCH" not allowed while "strict subs" in use at compiled/perl5-kp6-kp6/lib/​KindaPerl6/Grammar/Regex.pm line 28.
03:08 avar yes but afaikt kp6-kp6 still doesn't work at all and needs some more work so you'll be running nothing very fast:)
03:10 mncharity which would be a very great waste of time. :)
03:10 mncharity hmm...
03:10 mncharity s/waste/misallocation/
03:11 mncharity ok, a key question is,
03:12 mncharity how much of any current obstacles to kp6 compiling itself are behind the ast?  ie, Emit/Perl5 and the perl5 runtime.
03:13 mncharity the ruby backend replaces all that, so it's not an issue.
03:13 mncharity if kp6 can create a valid ast for the kp6 p6 code, then the ruby backend is all set.
03:14 mncharity any idea whether kp6 can create a valid ast for the kp6 p6 code?
03:16 * mncharity notes we are still dancing the story of "Once a p6 implementation with oo exists, it will be straightforward to write a p6 implementation in p6.  Until then... a world of pain."
03:19 mncharity avar: any idea whether kp6 can create a valid ast for the kp6 p6 code?
03:20 avar yes, since kp6-mp6 parser kp6
03:20 mncharity "kp6-mp6 parser kp6"?
03:20 avar parses
03:23 avar But anyway, I'm not saying you can't rewrite everything in ruby, just that things would be easier for all the backends if more stuff was in p6 so we wouldn't have to churn out all the same code for each backend
03:24 avar Like all the Pad handling et al
03:29 mncharity hmm... so why don't I buy that vision... let's see...
03:38 mncharity Perhaps the key concept is the following.  Given a usable p6 (correct-or-debuggable, generates usably fast code, oo, macros), and a language spec, one can write, a complete fast p6 implementation, from scratch (ie, using nothing from the "usable p6", but certainly snarfing lots of stuff from elsewhere), in a person week or few.
03:39 mncharity If you buy that, what makes other backends easy to write now, on non-"usable p6", completely doesn't matter.
03:39 mncharity s/what/then what/
03:41 mncharity Basically, if pugs had gotten oo that first summer, I believe we would have had a real p6 by end of year, and official xmas the next.
03:41 mncharity But pugs ended up not becoming that "usable p6", so we are still in bootstrap hell.
03:43 mncharity avar: I'd be very interested what you thought of: Given a usable p6 (correct-or-debuggable, generates usably fast code, oo, macros), and a language spec, one can write, a complete fast p6 implementation, from scratch (ie, using nothing from the "usable p6", but certainly snarfing lots of stuff from elsewhere), in a person week or few.
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03:45 mncharity it seems to suggest a model where one should sacrifice anything to get to a "usable p6"+ language spec.  you'll want to throw all the code away once it can be written in real p6 anyway.  so it's all a throwaway bootstrap.
03:45 mncharity thoughts?
03:45 mncharity anyone? :)
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04:05 mncharity just to illustrate that that wasn't intended as a strawman... or insane, i note: If you can compile p6 down to CL or scheme you've won, as they have nice compilers.  They, and everyone, have perl-compatible-regular-expression engines.  Which mostly don't permit subrules (including apparently perl 5.10).  Wrapping a PCRE to get subrules, and thense p6 rx, takes an amount of code proportional to the language's ability to define and grov
04:11 mncharity macros or other metaprogramming, and multimethods, help.  in a nice language, it's a high-order 100 lines of code.  A prolog one is nicely compact.  A ruby or p6 one too.  A p5 one, those hurt.  given a p5 pcre + subrules, it's trivial to do p6 re.  The hardest front-end issues have always been getting a p6re engine (or atleast p5re+subrules) for platform X, and having a p6 grammar.  Now STD hypotetically takes care of having a gramma
04:14 mncharity p6 requires very little compiler wizziness.  Except for multimethod dispatch, types can be largely ignored, and the language treated as dynamically typed.  That said, there are a lot of details, and those remain largely undocumented.  Eg, given a few lines of pseudo code saying "here's how to bootstrap a p6 oo system", one can easily implemented.  Now one has to contemplate peering hopefully into Moose.
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04:15 mncharity anyway.  end of hand-waving.
04:21 mncharity More concretely, the hard parts of redsix were () wrapping its pcre (because it's anon subs were slow and didn't compile away, motivating tossing a simple approach for a hairy one), () deriving a p6 grammar from the guts of pugs (because STD didn't exist), () writing the sandwich parser (because it was ill defined at the time, making it a research project), and () signatures and captures (either because the weren't spec'ed or I didn't
04:22 mncharity oo came fairly cheaply (redsix was ruby).
04:22 mncharity Also more concretely, the hard parts of the first perl5 backend were
04:22 Tene mncharity: cut off after "or I didn't..."
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04:23 Tene also a few other messages got cut off
04:23 mncharity :(
04:23 mncharity or I didn't understand them).
04:24 mncharity define and grovel over ast's.
04:24 ingy hi mncharity
04:24 mncharity any others?
04:24 mncharity hi ingy :)
04:24 ingy :)
04:25 Tene "language's ability to define and grov..."   "takes care of having a gramma..."
04:28 mncharity the hard parts of the first perl5 backend were () unpacking the serialized pugs ast, () getting a full ast (no oo - the killer).  fglock spent a lot of effort getting laziness working on p5.  and () getting oo spec'ed, and () getting p6 oo implemented (with I believe fighting p5 bugs and performance being the defining characteristics).
04:28 mncharity language's ability to define and grovel over ast's.
04:29 mncharity takes care of having a grammar.
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04:30 mncharity so to wrap up, note how every one of those obstacles goes away with "a usable p6 (correct-or-debuggable, generates usably fast code, oo, macros), and a language spec".
04:32 mncharity pugs + oo + sufficient lambda folk to provide "debuggable", could have been a "usable p6".
04:45 mncharity all of which could be taken as a way of saying "p6 is neat!". :)    ruby 2 and python 3000 aren't the right analogies.  maybe rubinius and pypy.  the p6 implementation exercise is very sensitive to "getting the representation right".  repeated instances of 'to do task Y, if the language being used has feature Z, then it's a no-brainer.  but if it doesn't... shudder... piles of code and pain'.
04:46 mncharity don't have multimethods? - enjoy visitors.  can't compile away abstractions? - pretend you are a compiler.
04:46 mncharity anyway.
04:47 mncharity don't have macros? - enjoy cut and paste.
04:57 mncharity oh, for the redsix difficulty list, also () using an evolving and buggy development version of ruby 1.9 (because ruby 1.8 doesn't have normal lexical scoping, the faking of which would have been even more pain (see "if the language being used has feature Z"...:)).
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06:03 pugs_svn r19680 | putter++ | [kp6] ruby backend: instance variables fleshed out.  run_tests thru t/kp6/28 pass.
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11:29 pmurias avar: you have to have some parts of the runtime in the target language
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12:30 mncharity It looks like script/kp6 -Cast fails for the following files: src/KindaPerl6/Grammar.pm src/KindaPerl6/Grammar/Quote.pm src/KindaPerl6/Grammar/Regex.pm src/KindaPerl6/Grammar/Term.pm src/KindaPerl6/Grammar/Token.pm .
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12:34 pmurias mncharity: looking
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12:38 pmurias they work, it's just perltidy which dosn't like the output
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12:43 pugs_svn r19681 | putter++ | [kp6] created compiled/ast-kp6-mp6/, to make it easier to analyze the ast's needed for bootstrap.  Created by hand - it would be nice to have a make target for it.
12:45 pugs_svn r19682 | putter++ | [kp6] created empty compiled/ruby-kp6-mp6/lib directory tree.
12:49 pugs_svn r19683 | ruoso++ | [smop] All tests compile... some tests even pass, but most of them segfault for now...
12:52 ruoso Failed 4/7 test scripts, 42.86% okay. 0/13 subtests failed, 100.00% okay.
12:52 ruoso cool
12:52 ruoso :P
12:53 ruoso and it really seems that the segfaults are related to the fact that sm0p.pl is still not implemented...
12:54 ruoso ./test/01_smop_lowlevel.t segfaults only when it was supposed to destroy the variable, which is when sm0p code should be executed...
12:55 ruoso test/01 is ok in 4 of 6... and test/04 is ok in 7 of 9 :P
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12:58 pugs_svn r19684 | ruoso++ | [smop] one less segfault... :)
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13:00 ruoso SMOP_LOWLEVEL_MEM_TRACE is effectively able to show memory leaks :) :) :) :)
13:02 ruoso lunch &
13:07 ruoso http://www.perlfoundation.org​/perl6/index.cgi?smop_hacking has a quick tour on comiling and running the tests...
13:07 lambdabot Title: SMOP Hacking / Perl 6
13:33 pugs_svn r19685 | putter++ | [kp6] ruby-kp6-mp6/kp6_runtime.rb: less ghastly (but still ugly) approach to instance variable initialization.
13:35 pugs_svn r19686 | putter++ | [kp6] tweak 19685.
13:36 mncharity pmurias: ah, great.  thanks.
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13:41 mncharity If anyone would like to set up the infrastructure so one can  make mumble, or script/mumble, or whatever is appropriate, to create the compiled/ruby-kp6-mp6/lib/*.rb files, that would be great.  And whatever thing one then runs to hand it 'say 3' and watch it explode in ruby errors.  And document it in docs/ruby_backend.txt. :)
13:41 mncharity that would be most helpful.  thanks.
13:43 mncharity pmurias: re... there was something I wanted to mention or ask you... blank brain.  maybe later.
13:43 mncharity be back this evening, or over the weekend. cheers. &
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13:46 rindolf Hi ispy_
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13:56 ispy_ yo
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14:39 agentzh howdy!
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14:40 cspencer if i define a block like so:  my $x = { say "Arg was: " ~ $_ };
14:40 cspencer will "$_" be bound to arguments to the block?
14:41 cspencer ie) if i call it as: $x(2)
14:41 cspencer does $_ get set to 2?
14:43 agentzh cspencer: i doubt it.
14:43 cspencer hmmm ok
14:43 agentzh ?my $x = { say "Arg was: " ~ $_ }; $x(2);
14:43 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf ft id map msg pl rc v wn
14:43 agentzh oh...
14:44 agentzh forgot the syntax...
14:44 agentzh cspencer: $func = { .print if $^a eq $^b }
14:45 agentzh $^a and $^b are two arguments
14:45 agentzh *parameters
14:45 agentzh cspencer: and $func = -> $a, $b { .print if $a eq $b };
14:45 cspencer oh, ok. that looks right now. :)
14:45 agentzh ie. the pointy block syntax
14:45 agentzh cspencer: see S04 for more info ;)
14:46 cspencer how would that differ from:
14:46 cspencer my @result = grep { ($_ % 2) }, @list;
14:46 cspencer is the block being passed into grep parsed differently?
14:47 agentzh cspencer: "A bare closure without placeholder arguments that uses $_ (either explicitly or implicitly) is treated as though $_ were a formal parameter:"
14:47 agentzh cspencer: okay, it seems i was wrong ;)
14:47 agentzh sorry about that ;)
14:47 cspencer was that in S04 too?
14:47 agentzh yup
14:47 cspencer that's alright :)
14:48 cspencer which section was that in?
14:48 agentzh cspencer: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#The_R​elationship_of_Blocks_and_Declarations
14:48 lambdabot Title: S04, http://tinyurl.com/y5beho
14:48 cspencer great, thank you!!
14:48 agentzh you're welcome ;)
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15:05 pmurias perl6: ?my $x = { say "Arg was: " ~ $_ }; $x(2);
15:05 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 0, line 1 column 0:␤?my $x = { say "Arg was: " ~ $_ }; $x(2)␤^ HERE␤]
15:05 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Arg was: 2␤]
15:05 exp_evalbot ..p6: No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
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15:51 mofino Are we there yet?
15:52 * mofino goes back to watching Dora
15:53 moritz_ mofino: where?
15:53 mofino The road to perl6
15:53 moritz_ yes, we're there (on the road)
15:54 mofino but are we there yet?
15:54 mofino (no)
15:54 mofino heh
15:54 mofino you ruined my joke, you know
15:54 mofino but it's ok, it was bad to begin with
15:55 moritz_ it's a question we read too often here
15:56 mofino haha
15:56 mofino I bet
15:56 mofino perhaps the answer is to make perl6 less exciting
15:57 mofino that way people won't anticipate it so much
15:58 moritz_ but that's not -Ofun
15:58 mofino i think it's impossible, perl6's awesome comes from the core
15:59 moritz_ we work on Perl 6 because it is exicting, and we want it to be exciting
15:59 mofino hehe i know
15:59 mofino I just can
15:59 mofino I just can't wait
15:59 mofino going to be fantastic
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16:47 ruoso mofino, do you program C?
16:48 ruoso (even if with very little experience)
16:48 mofino yeah I do
16:48 mofino well, I can
16:48 mofino with much rust, of course
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17:04 ruoso mofino, want to help in smop?
17:04 ruoso http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop
17:04 lambdabot Title: SMOP / Perl 6
17:05 mofino hmm
17:07 mofino looks complex!
17:07 ruoso it's as simple as I could get it :)
17:07 mofino then we have a bit of problem...
17:07 mofino ;)
17:09 pugs_svn r19687 | ruoso++ | [smop] adding a proper format to the "leaking variable" message in smop_lowlevel.
17:12 mofino I'll check this out though
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17:20 pugs_svn r19688 | ruoso++ | [smop] give a compilation warning in sm0p, while it still does not generate C code...
17:21 moritz_ @tell fglock I finally fixed the "Can't locate Text/Table.pm in @INC" bug in the irclogs, thanks for reporting
17:21 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:25 pugs_svn r19689 | moritz++ | [irclog] fix search link on channel index page
17:26 pugs_svn r19690 | moritz++ | [irclog] previous commit broke everything else, fixed that
17:27 pugs_svn r19691 | moritz++ | [irclog] another template knit
17:27 moritz_ three commits needed for one small fix - d'oh
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17:29 CookieDingler hello
17:29 moritz_ hi CookieDingler
17:30 CookieDingler hi Moritz
17:31 pugs_svn r19692 | ruoso++ | [smop] sm0p.pl now has a placeholder method with the code to be translated as argument.
17:31 CookieDingler it's the first time i come on this chan, so first i'd like to say thanks to everybody for the work made on perl6
17:32 moritz_ whoa, somebody who's first question is _not_ "when will it be ready?" ;-)
17:32 moritz_ CookieDingler++
17:33 CookieDingler heh, well i've read the various FAQs and i consider it will be ready when it will be ready
17:33 moritz_ aye
17:33 CookieDingler i'm quite impatient though
17:34 CookieDingler but i LOVE perl, so let it takes whatever time it takes
17:34 moritz_ you can help if you want
17:34 ruoso CookieDingler, we can always use some help
17:34 ruoso :)
17:35 CookieDingler i'm no good with programming i mainly use perl or assembly language (various CPU), it's not the time for optimisations
17:36 moritz_ TimToady: could you please update /topic to new evalbot syntax (s/\?eval/pugs: /)? you're the only channel op atm ;)
17:40 Tene ?eval [~] <m oo se>
17:40 Tene HAY IT DOESNT WORK
17:40 Tene Hm.  Do we still "do Haskell, too"?
17:42 moritz_ pugs: [~] <m oo se>
17:42 exp_evalbot RESULT["moose"]
17:42 moritz_ Tene: depends on your notion of "we"
17:42 moritz_ rakudo: say "hi"
17:42 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[hi␤]
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17:45 CookieDingler ruoso, i just tried parrot 0.5.2 today, and it's a really an interesting platform. i've looked at the compiled sources a little. i think i can remove a BUNCH ("un troupeau", a lot of, in french) of branches for the cpu. Sadly i don't think it's the time to implement that kind of stuff. Perhaps later, and i'll be around ;-) i know quite well the x86 32/64 architecture and the main OSes (win/lin) and i'd be happy to help on corn
17:45 CookieDingler er cases.
17:45 Tene moritz_: enough "we"s for it to stay in the channel topic?  I haven't seen haskell mentioned in quite a while.
17:47 ruoso CookieDingler, considering your processor lowlevel background... could you please take a look at smop architecture to spot future rooms for optimizations?
17:48 moritz_ Tene: not enough, probably :/
17:48 * PerlJam starts a campaign for gratutious mention of haskell on #perl6
17:58 Botje [+] (1..5)
17:58 Botje argh
17:58 Botje pugs: [+] (1..5)
17:58 exp_evalbot RESULT[15]
17:59 Botje pugs: (5,10,42) >>+ 1
17:59 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected ">>+"␤    expecting operator␤    at /tmp/s0rqrQeFP3 line 1, column 11␤]
17:59 Botje pugs: (5,10,42) >>+<< 1
17:59 exp_evalbot RESULT[(6, 11, 43)]
18:00 CookieDingler ruoso, SMOP?
18:02 CookieDingler ruoso, optimizations are relative to one processor
18:03 CookieDingler ruoso, are you talking about "Small Matter of Programming" (SMOP) from wikipedia?
18:09 ruoso CookieDingler, http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop
18:09 lambdabot Title: SMOP / Perl 6
18:09 ruoso CookieDingler, I mean "room for optimization" in general... not specific optimizations...
18:28 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [
18:28 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [
18:28 TimToady oops, finger slipped
18:29 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, smop: etc.) || We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
18:29 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, smop: etc.) || We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
18:30 TimToady I think /topic should have a way of just replacing one bit of it...
18:31 TimToady a bot with oper privs could handle s/foo/bar/ maybe, if it's not insecure...
18:32 ruoso TimToady, #p5p and #moose have an op bot that "trusts" certain people...
18:32 ruoso it's quite smart...
18:33 TimToady and if a p6 bot, could say s:2nd/\|.*?\|/xxx/
18:34 ruoso http://www.perlfoundation.org/pe​rl6/index.cgi?smop_sm0p_language updated... now it explains some rules on the preprocessing...
18:34 lambdabot Title: SMOP sm0p Language / Perl 6
18:35 TimToady 'course, could define my own irssi script to do that maybe...
18:36 TimToady in my Copious Free Time (where Copious is taken as an absolute value :/ )
18:39 CookieDingler ruoso, if i understand well, SMOP is just a quick way to talk about pointers? for what i know about compilers, you've got 3 phases: parsing, type casting, and translation to another language on reguard to the cpu architecture and the OS (let it be asm for a particular cpu).
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18:41 ruoso CookieDingler, in a sense SMOP is just an architecture for anything...
18:41 ruoso which basically means that the type casting is not needed...
18:41 CookieDingler i'm curious to see how a vm like perl could relate to a cpu?
18:41 ruoso well... you can watch it with perl5
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18:43 CookieDingler well, you've got probably more knowledge than me about vm, and of course if the programmer is good type casting isn't necessary... yet someone have to show me that aptitude....
18:44 CookieDingler after all type casting is the same as "use warnings"... (or i'm missing something?)
18:45 ruoso not really...
18:46 ruoso type casting means to know the layout of a value
18:46 ruoso and smop is all about delaying that knowledge by using the "Responder Interface" concept...
18:46 CookieDingler TimToady: i'm really happy to see you are online. I'd like to say a "BIG" thanks for perl, i hope you are well, and i hope you'll help us to get perl6 be the next-gen language
18:47 ruoso Perl 6 already is the next-gen language... at least until it's released... then it'll be this-gen's language :P
18:48 CookieDingler ruoso, i'd like to help perl6
18:48 CookieDingler i'm not quite sure it's the next gen language, but it's one i like
18:49 CookieDingler i learned assembly programming 20 years ago
18:49 CookieDingler and perl is the only thing/jewel that let me do that quickly
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18:50 ruoso CookieDingler, well... you you program haskel, you can help pugs... if you program Perl 5 you can help kp6, if you program ruby you can help kp6-ruby, if you program lisp you can help kp6-lisp, if you program C you can help smop and parrot (did I forgot to mention anything?) :)
18:50 ruoso s/you you/if you/
18:50 ludan hi
18:51 ruoso ludan, hi
18:57 mofino CookieDingler, p6 seems to be pretty "next gen"
19:00 ruoso home &
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22:07 pugs_svn r19693 | lwall++ | s/eval/skip/ because rakudo doesn't do eval yet
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22:37 pugs_svn r19694 | lwall++ | radix conversions of numbers should use decimal string representation
22:44 pugs_svn r19695 | lwall++ | remove unnecessary rakudo tries
22:56 pugs_svn r19696 | lwall++ | [fudge] use block syntax of try rather than function call syntax
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