Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-02-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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11:56 pugs_svn r19792 | ruoso++ | [smop] Now only one subtest is failing. I still have memory leaks, but I think they come from the sm0p nodes not being destroyed.
12:15 pugs_svn r19793 | ruoso++ | [smop] adding two more trace messages...
12:15 ruoso now it shows every alloc and free... sums the leaks in the end
12:21 rakudo_svn r25427 | bernhard++ | [Rakudo]
12:21 rakudo_svn r25427 | bernhard++ | Clean up src/utils/Makefile
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13:39 * ruoso found a way to break one of the bootstrap infinite loops. CPS destruction won't happen for the SLIME and NATIVE objects...
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14:01 pugs_svn r19794 | cosimo++ | [t/spec/S16] Fudged chmod :todo tests
14:02 pugs_svn r19795 | cosimo++ | [t/spec/S16] More fudging of :todo tests
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15:57 rakudo_svn r25432 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Very preliminary work on inheritance. Doesn't work unless you declare classes in reverse order, due to an ordering change in the PAST -> POST translation phase.
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16:40 TimToady crumb, I just figgered out that binding should be <- and list assignment should be :=
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16:47 peepsalot i'm reading the perl6 faq, and I don't understand the method that perl6 would use to interpret this example:  if 1 <= $roll1 === $roll2 <= 6 { say "You rolled doubles!"; }
16:48 TimToady that's an extension of the normal mathematical notation 1 <= $roll <= 6
16:49 TimToady with the additional constraint that both rolls have to be the same
16:49 TimToady you can string together as many comparisons as you like in p6 that way
16:49 peepsalot yeah, i think i got it right after I wrote it out
16:49 TimToady otherwise you'd have to write
16:50 TimToady okay, nevermind
16:50 TimToady I don't want to write it out... :)
16:50 TimToady although it shouldn't really be using === there when == would do
16:51 monomorph there: 1 <= $roll1 and $roll1 == $roll2 and $roll2 <= 6
16:51 peepsalot i will... so it's equivalent to:  (1 <= $roll1) && ($roll1 === $roll2) && ($roll2 <= 6)
16:52 monomorph except that $roll1 is only evaluated once, i think
16:54 peepsalot ok, thanks
16:57 monomorph what was that remark about <- and := ? a joke i didn't get?
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17:04 TimToady no, it's a serious proposal to do away with the arcane disambiguation rules in S03's description of assignment
17:08 monomorph this is about precedence in my @foo = 1, 2, 3 vs. my $foo = 1, $bar = 2, $baz = 3 right?
17:11 TimToady yes
17:12 TimToady the proposal is that = always be tighter than , and := always be looser
17:12 TimToady (assuming the theft of := from binding)
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17:14 rhr_ what would ::= and =:= become?
17:14 TimToady ::= could be <<= but I dunno about =:=
17:14 monomorph =><=
17:14 TimToady <->
17:15 TimToady oh wait... :)
17:15 TimToady actually, <-> would work, I think
17:15 TimToady it's <=> that wouldn't
17:16 TimToady on the other hand, could just be VAR($x) === VAR($y) with no loss of clarity
17:17 TimToady so we could probably just do away with =:=, cute though it is
17:17 TimToady I can be a ruthless sob at times...
17:17 rhr_ that's true, I haven't seen much use for it
17:18 TimToady biggest Q is how to get there from here, I think...
17:18 TimToady first need to invent <-
17:18 TimToady then switch all := to <-
17:18 TimToady and when all platforms are clear of :=, switch that to list assignment
17:18 monomorph <<= looks like left-shift assignment, even though it isn't in Perl6
17:19 TimToady sure, shift all these values left and bind them :)
17:19 rhr_ <<= or <<- ?
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17:19 TimToady <<-
17:19 TimToady <<= is undefined currently, though <<== and <== are
17:20 TimToady alas, we can't use <= for binding
17:20 peepsalot why do zip and each functions separate parameters with semicolons instead of commas?
17:20 TimToady so you can say zip(1,2,3;4,5,6)
17:21 TimToady pugs: 1,2,3 Z 4,5,6
17:21 exp_evalbot RESULT[((1, 4), (2, 5), (3, 6))]
17:21 peepsalot oh
17:22 peepsalot pugs: zip(1,2,3;4,5,6)
17:22 exp_evalbot RESULT[((1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6),)]
17:22 peepsalot uh
17:22 TimToady pugs is not up to date there
17:24 TimToady it had an old zip from before we invented slice contexts (S09)
17:24 peepsalot pugs: 1,2,3 Z 4,5,6 Z 7,8,9
17:24 exp_evalbot RESULT[((1, 4, 7), (2, 5, 8), (3, 6, 9))]
17:24 TimToady pugs: 1,2,3 X 4,5,6 X 7,8,9
17:24 exp_evalbot RESULT[((1, 4, 7), (1, 4, 8), (1, 4, 9), (1, 5, 7), (1, 5, 8), (1, 5, 9), (1, 6, 7), (1, 6, 8), (1, 6, 9), (2, 4, 7), (2, 4, 8), (2, 4, 9), (2, 5, 7), (2, 5, 8), (2, 5, 9), (2, 6, 7), (2, 6, 8), (2, 6, 9), (3, 4, 7), (3, 4, 8), (3, 4, 9), (3, 5, 7), (3, 5, 8), (3, 5, 9), (3, 6, 7), (3, 6, 8), (3,
17:24 exp_evalbot ..6, 9))]
17:25 monomorph stop, you're gonna break it!
17:25 peepsalot heh
17:25 TimToady pugs: die
17:25 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Died␤    at /tmp/kj1oCGfM83 line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
17:25 peepsalot brutal
17:25 TimToady pugs: die "again"
17:25 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** again␤    at /tmp/iTmynkEZGZ line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
17:27 monomorph poor pugs
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17:28 monomorph so what about $a < -$b, space required before minus?
17:28 TimToady yes
17:28 TimToady but it's already required before
17:28 TimToady or you have a postfix .<>
17:29 TimToady I think people will already be consistently putting whitespace around their comparisons
17:29 TimToady (and hopefully most other infix operators)
17:30 monomorph *i* do that in any language
17:31 monomorph crazy idea: if := is list assignment, make = list binding. it's available then, has the right precedence, and is consistent with how array assignment behaves in every language in widespread use except perl.
17:32 TimToady er, binding already is list binding
17:32 TimToady oh, you mean thrown out assignment :)
17:32 TimToady *throw
17:33 TimToady ain't gonna happen, I don't think
17:33 TimToady assignment is important for distinguishing value semantics from reference semantics
17:33 monomorph i mean that @a = @b could do what @a := @b does know, because @a := @b already does what @a = @b does now. not a serious proposal, just a quick idea
17:34 TimToady @a = @b should *copy* the value of @b, not make @a and @b identical
17:34 lambdabot Maybe you meant: activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask . ? @ v
17:35 TimToady the fact that other languages confuse them results in FAQs for those languages
17:35 monomorph that's true
17:38 monomorph i like how @foo *is* an array, as opposed to *points to* an array
17:39 TimToady well, it does both, depending on the operator, just as $x can be either numeric or string depending on the operator
17:39 monomorph :)
17:41 peepsalot pugs: my @a = 1,2,3,4; say @a;
17:41 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1234␤]
17:41 TimToady but that's why we can get away with saying that p6 doesn't have references; it does, but it's all hidden away most of the time
17:41 peepsalot pugs: my @a = (1,2,3,4); say @a;
17:41 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1234␤]
17:41 TimToady you'd either have to use parens or := under the new regime
17:44 peepsalot the download link on pugscode.org is busted, what gives?
17:44 TimToady well, actually, you could also say my @a = list 1,2,3,4
17:47 TimToady dunno, something's busted on rakudo maybe
17:48 TimToady but since rakudo is now the official name of parrot's perl6 implementation, we should probably redirect pugs download elsewhere
17:48 TimToady just to avoid confusion
17:51 TimToady afk & # errands
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18:12 peepsalot what's the difference between "make" and "make soon" for pugs?
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18:51 spinclad so to  C< for @rhs -> lhs {...} >  we now give a converse,   C< lhs <- rhs; ... >.  this suggests C< foronce rhs -> lhs {...} >, or C< let rhs -> lhs {...} >, or would just C< rhs -> lhs {...} > be possible?
18:57 spinclad peepsalot: 'make soon' builds pugs unoptimized and unthreaded.
18:58 peepsalot ok thx
19:00 spinclad (re just C< rhs -> lhs {...} >):  of course not, that would be two terms in a row.
19:01 spinclad (iiuc)
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19:27 * cognominal_ suddemly realize that the synopsis is not a prescriptive but descriptive. It attempts to describe how the people will use the language insteads
19:27 nothingmuch spinclad: -> $foo {  } is a sub declaration IIRC
19:27 cognominal_ ... of prescribing how they should use it.
19:27 cognominal_ s/synopsis/synopses/
19:28 cognominal_ TimToady++
19:29 cognominal_ I suppose what he does is a capital crime in many circles.
19:30 cognominal_ linguist should be barred from computers... :)
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19:38 pmurias ruoso: hi
19:42 mncharity ok, I'm puzzled.
19:43 Juerd nothingmuch: It's a sub, not a 'declaration' iiuc
19:43 mncharity am looking over misc/pX/Common/yet_another_regex/engine and it's README.
19:43 Juerd cognominal_: My perception is that it is a bit of both
19:44 mncharity it was written just under a year ago now.  and has largely been untouched since.
19:45 nothingmuch Juerd: it doesnt' declare a named sub, you mean?
19:45 spinclad nothingmuch: sure, a pointy block.  appears in C<< for <expr> <pblock> >>, and C<< <expr> <pblock> >> would be two terms side by side.
19:45 mncharity it was passing perl5's re_tests, various similar p6 tests, and could be run as pugs's regex engine against the full pugs t/regex tests.
19:45 spinclad (pointy block / pointy sub)
19:45 mncharity fully backtracking, had commits, etc.
19:46 nothingmuch spinclad: that is my understanding anyway
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19:46 mncharity though still missing lots of p6 rx support.
19:46 spinclad nothingmuch: mine too
19:47 mncharity code could use refactoring.  but code forking for refactoring was set up to be trivial, and was documented.
19:47 Juerd nothingmuch: It "declares" as much as [] does for an array (still iiuc)
19:47 mncharity it would seem to have been an obvious path to make STD work.
19:47 mncharity so... why hasn't it been touched since last year?
19:48 nothingmuch Juerd: erm, i don't follow
19:48 Juerd nothingmuch: IOW: yes :)
19:48 mncharity (not understanding that, I doubt my ability to predict what will actually help us make progress towards xmas)
19:50 mncharity so, yes.  /me puzzled.
19:51 spinclad mncharity: it's possible once audrey got swallowed by $life, and TimToady took up the use of pugs, that noone was around and active and aware of yet_another_regex/engine.
19:52 spinclad *yet_another_regex_engine
19:53 mncharity http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/mi​sc/pX/Common/yet_another_regex_engine/
19:53 lambdabot Title: Revision 14497: /pugs/trunk/misc/pX/Common​/yet_another_regex_engine, http://tinyurl.com/yrdj69
19:56 mncharity the README does suggest audrey seem to be coming back, which was part of why it got backburnered in favor of hs.  but TT was working on STD at the time.  so if lack of awareness is part of it, then the mechanism seems more likely to have been forgetting, rather than not originally knowing of it, no?
20:00 mncharity err, that's odd.  is  http://svn.perl.org/  currently active?   it seems to have a significantly older version of README than I'm getting via svn up.
20:00 lambdabot Title: Subversion Server - perl.org
20:01 wolverian it doesn't seem to be updated.
20:01 spinclad sadly, i wasn't aware of it (mostly offline around then).  can't speak for TT; ISTM he's been the only relevant party besides you (and audrey) in this.
20:03 pmurias ruoso: is sm0p grammar intended to be diffrent from kp6's
20:04 mncharity re http://svn.perl.org/perl6/ , yeah, 14497 vs 19795.  Does anyone know how to poke or kill off svn.perl.org/perl6?
20:04 lambdabot Title: Revision 14497: /
20:05 pmurias * different
20:06 mncharity http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/p​X/Common/yet_another_regex_engine/   <- "current" version
20:06 lambdabot Title: Revision 19795: /misc/pX/Common/yet_another_regex_engine, http://tinyurl.com/2d96yh
20:06 pmurias mncharity: it might have been the issue of Pugs::Compile::Rule taking the attention
20:11 pmurias s/taking/getting/
20:20 spinclad mncharity: [while i'm looking at its log: r15355 has an interesting log entry: 'Fixed one _very_ long standing "thinko" bug with repetition.  It dated back to the original regex engine spike a year ago.  So there are many variants of it scattered around Common. :('  Do you recall if you or others propagated this to relevant other engines?]
20:20 mncharity re PCR, ok, that looks plausible.  PCR continues to be active (cpan shows updates through Nov'07).  and my fuzzy recollection is pugs uses PCR by default?  so pugs provides the test suite.
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20:25 mncharity re thinko, my very fuzzy recollection is not completely.  but also the belief that it didn't matter, because none of them were being used anyway.  I believe all of fglock's work was unaffected, because he never wanted to extensively use anon subs, and so ended up with an independent code base.
20:27 rakudo_svn r25446 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Initial implementation of roles and compile time role composition. Has an ordering issue, as with the inheritance patch earlier, which may be a PAST -> POST translation bug. Simply compiles to use Parrot's role implementation directly.
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20:31 mncharity re PCR, so... why hasn't STD ended up running on PCR?
20:35 mncharity ie, why isn't  PCR+STD (with p6 code transliterated to p5) == full p6 parser running on p5?
20:36 lichtkind @seen fglock
20:36 lambdabot I haven't seen fglock.
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20:42 spinclad mncharity: good questions.  answers may lie in lack of project 'management' on this side of the pugs/parrot divide.  TT has written STD and shepherded it through pugs on his own.  (more)
20:47 spinclad counter-question:  how can we get people in place to be aware of resources (code and people) and make these connections?
20:47 * mncharity tries to picture web-based project management software to support anarchistic development...
20:47 mncharity lol.  re counter-question, ^^
20:49 mncharity more seriously, hmm... pondering...
20:50 spinclad parrot has #parrotsketch, the Perl 6 project as a whole has a weekly phone call... who here could take part in that?
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20:51 wolverian LionWRK here is interested in making a perl6 compiler, though I don't know the specifics. please welcome him :)
20:52 LionWRK heh hi
20:52 Auzon Hi.
20:52 spinclad welcome LionWRK.  where are you coming from, and where do you want to go?
20:52 LionWRK nowhere / somewhere
20:52 Auzon mncharity: it sounds like a wiki updated by the project leaders or maybe automatically (something like an SVN bot?)
20:53 Auzon mncharity: there's also Hiveminder, which is awesome, but we never really used it
20:54 Auzon I use Hiveminder for one of my own projects (plus my classwork) and it's great. I dunno how it'd scale with the amount of tasks that Perl 6 has, but it might be worth  a look since we have a group there already.
20:56 spinclad LionWRK: are you aware of the various compilers already in what we like to think of as progress?
20:56 spinclad pugs, kp6, rakudo
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20:57 spinclad built on haskell, mp6/perl, and nqp/parrot respectively
20:57 LionWRK spinclad,  yes
20:57 LionWRK what interested me was the talk about perl6 on the CLR
20:58 LionWRK it's mostly out of personal interest in writing compilers, which I've never done
21:00 pmurias LionWRK: do you want do something from scratch or a backend?
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21:04 spinclad or frontend work on adapting the P6 STD grammar to the various compilers?
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21:05 spinclad kp6 has perhaps the most relevant plugin architecture currently for CLR backend work
21:07 spinclad also needs middle-end work, as it were, to make it more useable
21:08 spinclad kp6 and rakudo are largely written in P6 dialects
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21:10 mncharity re project management pondering, one observation is we seem to currently have a much easier task at present than originally.  more a minor matter of implementation, than the original 'design a language and implement it'.  even if the p6 language spec continues to change,
21:10 ruoso pmurias, hi...
21:10 ruoso sm0p grammar is just a macro expander
21:11 ruoso and it's already working :)
21:11 spinclad mncharity: agree
21:12 pmurias ruoso: that's great
21:12 mncharity as it may well need to once there starts to be real usage experience (a 5.999+i imaginary series?), there seems enough spec around to make it plausible one could now implement a p6-like language implementation, with a reasonable expectation it could easily track subsequent evolution.
21:13 ruoso pmurias, almost all smop tests are passing now
21:13 ruoso I'm just finishing the review on the refcount usage
21:14 ruoso and I think I'll have the smop runtime bootstrapped
21:14 spinclad and we have some tools built: nqp seems to be much nicer to work with than bare parrot, and mp6/kp6 in a similar position on the perl5/lisp/[other backend] side
21:15 LionWRK I haven't given that level of thought to it really
21:15 spinclad that is, we have a couple such implementations going already
21:15 LionWRK I'd start from scratch most likely though
21:15 ruoso pmurias, after that, we'll be able to implement the p6opaque SMOP__ResponderInterface
21:16 ruoso which is the default object system for Perl 6
21:17 ruoso pmurias, take a look and run make -f Makefile.cvs build-world in smop
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21:18 spinclad LionWRK: from scratch a plan might be:  look at STD and P6 regex language, build a regex engine, steal parts of existing compilers to build one you like
21:20 spinclad this might not be well distinguished from plugging in to existing compilers, but could have a different scope and focus
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21:20 wolverian do we have definitions of the various acronyms and such somewhere?
21:20 wolverian e.g. STD
21:21 obra I believe pmichaud put together just such a thing
21:21 * wolverian looks on teh wiki
21:21 wolverian s/teh/the/
21:21 ruoso wolverian, obra, I think the wiki has it
21:22 wolverian http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index​.cgi?glossary_of_perl_6_terms_and_jargon is one, but doesn't have STD
21:22 lambdabot Title: Glossary of Perl 6 Terms and Jargon / Perl 6, http://tinyurl.com/ytvdje
21:23 pmurias ruoso: 1 failure here
21:25 wolverian hum, I can't edit the wiki
21:25 wolverian it stays at "Loading editor..."
21:25 wolverian I do have js enabled
21:26 ruoso pmurias, yep.. just one :)... and that's a good thing
21:26 ruoso it means that smop is almost bootstrapping its runtime
21:26 spinclad STD appears to stand for 'proposed STanDard Perl 6 grammar in standard Perl 6' (or is that STandarD ?)
21:27 ruoso and I can truly say that *everything* in smop is an object... including the interpreter...
21:29 Auzon How far along does that put smop?
21:29 wolverian could someone else add it to the wiki, since I can't? it's probably because I use ubuntu hardy, which has the development version of my browser, which isn't quite stable yet..
21:29 ruoso Auzon, far enough to start implementing a backend for it in kp6 in a very short time
21:30 Auzon so kp6 -> smop -> code runs?
21:30 ruoso Auzon, yep
21:31 spinclad smop++
21:32 spinclad ( wolverian: don't know if i have access, will try )
21:32 wolverian spinclad, thanks!
21:32 wolverian spinclad++
21:32 wolverian it's very important to have the terminology accessible to newcomers
21:33 spinclad agreed
21:43 mncharity STD: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/STD.pm
21:46 wolverian fudge should be added to the wiki page too
21:49 spinclad (cheat and metholate as well, perhaps, under STD: they let STD run on pugs)
21:50 mncharity Auzon: havn't forgotten your observation... still pondering...
21:50 mncharity *good observation
21:50 spinclad (by rewriting it, i believe)
21:51 mncharity http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/cheat  http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/metholate
21:51 mncharity link for fudge?
21:53 spinclad ack-grep -f | grep fudge
21:53 spinclad t/spec/fudgeall
21:53 spinclad t/spec/fudge
21:54 spinclad so http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/{fudge,fudgeall}
21:54 mncharity http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/fudge  http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/fudgeall
21:55 spinclad yes, better: those are clickable
22:03 mncharity ok, the question was "how can we get people in place to be aware of resources (code and people) [...] ?"
22:04 mncharity a possible response is "create the svn.pugscode file  code_and_people.txt".
22:04 mncharity which seems a bit unsatisfying.
22:04 mncharity in wiki variants as well.
22:04 mncharity why?
22:05 mncharity one possibility is, who's the target audience?
22:05 mncharity "people working on the perl6 project"?
22:06 Auzon I think that audience makes sense
22:06 Auzon maybe also include people wanting to help.
22:08 mncharity which raises the question, "what perl6 project?".   There's the p6-language list.  There's parrot.  There is/was pugs.  pugs created/spun off/gave life to something like a p6 project.  A test suite, infrastructure (feather).  There's kp6.  There was redsix.
22:08 wolverian they're included in that definition, surely :)
22:09 jonathan4 joined #perl6
22:09 mncharity If STD were what a "perl6 project" consists of now, than the target audience and answer would obviously be "email TimToady".
22:09 mncharity which again, doesn't seem a very satisfying answer.
22:10 mncharity If someone wanted to do a perl6 on perl5 project, I know what I would tell them.
22:11 mncharity Here are the available people and resources.  Plan on working closely with the p5 core development team if you plan a long term project.  Plan on forking the core and putting significant effort into it if you have a shorter term one.
22:13 mncharity If someone wanted to do a perl6 on ruby project, again, I'd know the people and resources to suggest.  And again, cautions like watch for 1.9.0 being potentially buggy, perhaps unlikely to be as challenging as the p5 case.
22:14 monomorph i guess part of the problem is that there are conflicting visions
22:14 mncharity If someone wanted to work on a perl6 project, well, there are some obvious suggestions.
22:14 monomorph some people feel that parrot is not going anywhere. others think that an opensource project in haskell is doomed from the beginning. etc.
22:15 jnthn I've kinda ended up just picking one and hacking on it. :-)
22:15 mncharity There are a couple of parsers now which do or can output ast representations, all variously difficulty to deal with.  Put in some grunge time, create postprocessors for each, and emit simple, portable, common ast representation, to decouple front-end from compiler-and-runtime advancement.
22:16 spinclad well, sure, some people don't know thing one about where parrot is going
22:16 mncharity That's simple, not difficult, but not particularly interesting and fun.   Great for a "perl6 project" though.
22:17 pmurias mncharity: you would have to design the common ast
22:17 mncharity But non-exciting and fun tasks only get done if their context is exciting.  So the grunge bits are exciting by contagion.
22:17 mncharity The "perl6 project" isn't doesn't seem to be exciting people just now.
22:18 mncharity Though there seems an untapped reserve of interest.  Potentially a large one.
22:18 mncharity So maybe it's just a lack of... project cheerleading-ness.
22:19 * mncharity pauses to backlog comments...
22:22 mncharity re 'design the common ast', the ast's are not complex.  the entire original p5 backend took something like 2 person/calendar days.  one can do a p6 ast in a 100 lines of ruby code, perhaps 3x that in p5.
22:22 monomorph mncharity: so you're suggesting more hype? parrot had quite a bit of hype back in 2003, i'm not sure if it helped...
22:24 pmurias mncharity: "orginal p5 backend" = ?
22:24 wolverian parrot didn't have the tools necessary for easy bootstrap back then
22:24 mncharity re visions, I would have said "agreed" an hour ago.  now I'm getting a bit of traction by thinking of them as distinct projects.  but yes - Perl 6 as a cluster of somewhat overlapping projects with only somewhat overlapping visions of how to get to xmas, and little coordination between them.
22:26 mncharity re "orginal p5 backend", pugs got a p5 and js backend within a few months of its creation, near its period of peak activity.  Spring of... whatever year it was.
22:27 mncharity They both took only a day or two to write.  Taking pugs ast dump, reading it, emitting from the ast, and running it.
22:28 spinclad spring of ... 2005?
22:28 mncharity Not passing all that much of the test suite to start with.  But design or complexity of the ast was not a big issue.
22:29 mncharity $ svn log -r 1    -> 2005-02-06 yes
22:30 spinclad (birthday coming up!)
22:30 mncharity lol :)
22:31 mncharity what's 3 in people years?
22:31 Auzon 100? :P
22:31 monomorph isn't there a perl6 operator for that?
22:31 wolverian Unknown unit 'people'
22:31 spinclad 3, maybe:  it's finally on its feet, a bit unsteadily
22:32 spinclad starting to talk up a storm
22:32 mncharity :)
22:34 mncharity early rapid infant development, followed by a lot of eating and sleeping, now...
22:34 Auzon pugs: sleep
22:34 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    at /tmp/ZwcaaKn4x4 line 2, column 1␤]
22:35 Auzon pugs: sleep 5;
22:35 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Unsafe function 'sleep' called under safe mode␤    at /tmp/7jlYg1NY3g line 1, column 1-8␤]
22:35 Auzon heh.
22:35 spinclad pugs: while 1 { sleep; }
22:35 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected ";"␤    at /tmp/hruPccxtf0 line 1, column 16␤]
22:36 spinclad pugs: while 1 { sleep }
22:36 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "}"␤    at /tmp/xUIMlS3I7n line 1, column 17␤]
22:36 spinclad durn
22:38 spinclad re glossary wiki page: my browser is like cold molasses, probably won't get to it before bed.  anyone else wants to, feel free.
22:42 mncharity so I was going to say something like "so there are 142 people on the channel, and little two day projects which would obviously get us closer to xmas are left undone for years".  apropos massaging pugs ast dumps into something people can less painfully play with.
22:44 mncharity but then there was pmurias question re the feasibility of doing that.  and I remember all the questioning of ruby as a nice backend.
22:46 mncharity so perhaps there's an issue of "the big picture, or maybe the characteristics of some of its components, is not clearly visible".
22:48 mncharity pmurias: here's http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/  and its ast  http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/lib/PIL/
22:48 lambdabot Title: Revision 19795: /perl5/PIL2JS
22:52 wolverian maybe pugs kind of scared people off, too.
22:52 mncharity the p5 backend was pil-run.  ast handling: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/old_pugs_​perl5_backend/PIL-Run/lib/PIL/Run/EvalX.pm
22:52 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/3acchl
22:53 wolverian and it's only now picking up, when people are realising you don't _need_ to write in haskell to write a perl6 implementation. :)
22:53 mncharity :) hmm...
22:54 Auzon well yeah, now we can write it in Perl 6 :)
22:55 mncharity there does potentially seem an issue of frozen-ness.  perhaps of negativity?  in order to explain the "there lots of people interested, but there aren't lots of people puttering about making small improvements".
22:57 pmurias sleep&
22:58 mncharity eg, we've so lowered the barrier to entry (well, a (better) wiki might dramatically lower it further for some types of work), that coming up with explanations for why there aren't more people past the barrier and bouncing around, needs a bit more creativity.
22:58 mncharity g'night pmurias
22:59 mncharity started to say "I don't think I really understand it", but that should be a question instead.  "Why don't *you* spend more time on helping with p6?".  hmm, that might make an interesting survey.
23:02 mncharity it's about that time of year where kids taking courses for which they have to conduct surveys are starting to think of topics.  perhaps we could get someone to survey current perl developer community attitudes towards p6, its development effort, and contributing to same.
23:02 mncharity s/to/towards/
23:03 mncharity no, to.  sigh.
23:06 justatheory joined #perl6
23:11 peepsalot i'm guessing all this [ol][li] crap is not supposed to be part of the perl examples? http://www.programmersheaven.com/2​/Perl6-FAQ-Variables#hypothetical
23:12 Juerd It's not
23:12 peepsalot k, guess i will try to email the webmaster or somethign
23:12 rwt joined #Perl6
23:15 rwt How do I get a current subroutine name and can I call subroutine by name?
23:19 alester joined #perl6
23:19 Juerd rwt: For what version of Perl?
23:20 rwt 5.8.8
23:20 Juerd We're building a future version of Perl here :)
23:20 rwt Sorry.
23:20 Juerd It's still somewhat hypothetical :)
23:20 Juerd Try #perl
23:20 rwt :)
23:21 jnthn peepsalot: Erm, I work at that site.
23:21 jnthn I'm *sure* I checked a fix for that bug in a while back...
23:22 jnthn As in, quite a while back.
23:23 peepsalot jnthn, well, its baaaack ;-)
23:23 jnthn peepsalot: Or never got deployed...
23:23 peepsalot set the building on fire!
23:24 peepsalot that'll teach em to not deploy
23:24 peepsalot well, anyways i already submitted a note via this form http://www.programmersheave​n.com/other/contact_us.htm
23:26 jnthn peepsalot: Thanks. Since I'm lead dev there now, I'm sure I'll find out about it on Monday. ;-)
23:26 rwt left #Perl6
23:27 jnthn Thought it was a page markup bug at first, but the renderer is certainly fubar'd.
23:30 * spinclad .eat($food).sleep(:hour(10))
23:30 spinclad &
23:30 mncharity spinclad: good night.  thanks for the interesting discussion.
23:31 spinclad glad to contribute!
23:31 peepsalot pugs: my @a = 1,2,3; @a,4;
23:31 exp_evalbot RESULT[([1, 2, 3], 4)]
23:34 jiing joined #perl6
23:35 IllvilJa joined #perl6
23:35 peepsalot how does the reverse function work here? http://www.programmersheaven.com​/2/Perl6-FAQ-Subroutines#slurpy
23:36 TimToady that does not look correct to me
23:36 peepsalot seems like it would return an array like [[[[[[1],2],3],4],5] or something
23:36 TimToady should just flatten @a into the list
23:36 peepsalot hmm, what's the difference between a list and an array?
23:37 peepsalot TimToady, you mean the pugs result is not right?
23:37 peepsalot or the example in the link?
23:37 TimToady yes, that's what I mean
23:37 peepsalot ok
23:38 * jnthn is still confused about what is not right
23:38 jnthn The link or the Pugs output?
23:38 TimToady pugs is wrong, I think
23:38 jnthn Ah, OK.
23:38 jnthn The one that I'm not to blame for writing. PHew. :-)
23:39 * jnthn is busy enough creating bugs to get blamed for in Rakudo
23:39 peepsalot TimToady, how does perl decide to make it into one big list instead of nested ones?
23:39 TimToady pugs: my @a = 1,2,3; (@a,4).join(':')
23:39 exp_evalbot RESULT["1:2:3:4"]
23:39 Juerd peepsalot: Context!
23:39 peepsalot what if I wanted a nested list?
23:39 TimToady it's probably just not in any valid context
23:40 Juerd peepsalot: Then you don't use something with a @ or () in list context.
23:40 peepsalot pugs: my @a = 1,2,3; (@a,4);
23:40 Juerd But something with \@, $ or []
23:40 exp_evalbot RESULT[([1, 2, 3], 4)]
23:41 Juerd Or you put (,) in list context, which results in an array, and which I still think is a bad idea because it's utterly confusing and leads to questions like yours :)
23:41 TimToady pugs: my $a = (1,2,3); ($a,4).join(':')
23:41 exp_evalbot RESULT["1 2 3:4"]
23:41 TimToady that one's still nested
23:41 Juerd afk
23:42 Juerd Actually, do we really need the list/array distinction?
23:42 peepsalot where can i learn more about this context you speak of
23:42 Juerd afk
23:43 peepsalot this faq I am reading does not explain much about lists and arrays AFAIK
23:46 jnthn peepsalot: The one on PH?
23:47 peepsalot yes
23:47 jnthn Yeah, agree it could say much more.
23:48 jnthn Will see if I can get some time to work on it.
23:48 peepsalot cool
23:49 jnthn I wrote the FAQ originally, BTW.
23:49 jnthn PH funded me to work on it.
23:49 jnthn Think they'll be happy to fund me to update it some now too.
23:50 jnthn There's been some design changes in bits of Perl 6 since it was written.
23:51 jferrero joined #perl6

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