Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-02-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:15 meppel-san good night
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01:10 cj is the perl6 sprintf API the same as perl5's?
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01:42 TimToady cj: probably still there, but mostly just use $x.fmt("%03d")
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02:34 cj TimToady: okay.  I'm tring to add something quick'n'dirty'accurate to http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-MiniPerl6/lib/MiniPerl6/Perl5/Runtime.pm's Main::
02:34 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/385yzo
02:35 cj there was supposed to be another 'n in there
02:39 cj also, I want to inject values into a template
02:39 cj *multiple* values
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03:16 gwern hm. I'm trying pugs from svn - is it bad that HsSyck doesn't build because of bytestring problems?
03:17 gwern and pugs-hsregex too... yeah, that seems to kill my build
03:17 gwern is pugs updated for 6.8.x, it occurs to me to ask...?
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03:39 TimToady gwern: I'm still running 6.6.1 myself, and I don't think it's updated to 6.8 yet
03:40 TimToady it could use some TLC on that score...
03:40 gwern TimToady: how unforunate. I've got pugs-hsregex updated, but HsSyck looks a bit tricky because bytestring has changed a fair bit
03:40 gwern TLC?
03:41 TimToady Tender Loving Care
03:41 gwern TimToady: ah. do you know who I should send my 'svn diff's to?
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03:43 allbery_b I have ghc-pkg problems building pugs, fwiw.
03:43 gwern allbery_b: how did you get HsSyck working?
03:44 allbery_b I didn't, it fails configure on ghc-pkg errors
03:44 allbery_b as I just said
03:44 gwern hm. I assumed you meant pugs-pugs, not the libraries it uses
03:44 allbery_b never gets around to checking if bytestring is the right version, ghc-pkg barfs on its parameters
03:44 allbery_b no, the pugs repo
03:45 allbery_b hrm, no, I misremembered.  doesn't error on params, just ignores the global package repo because of its params and then falls over because it can't find base
03:45 gwern heh. my problem is that when it trys to build, it wants old functions like copyCStringLen
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03:59 gwern ah, HsSyck wasn't so hard to fix. 'oleg cat says: see? ur type problem wasn't so hard'
04:02 TimToady wouldn't it just be easier to give you a commit bit to pugs repo?
04:03 * diakopter checks if CommitBit is running.
04:03 TimToady it is
04:03 gwern dunno. pugs seems to work out of svn and I'm not familiar with svn. I guess when I finish, I'll just send one big diff.
04:04 TimToady if you have a commit bit, you can just send it by saying "svn ci"
04:04 TimToady just /msg me your email and I can give you a commit bit
04:04 gwern hm. what is pugs-HsSyck useful for? it says it handles loading and dumping YAML, which is some data serialization format?
04:05 TimToady yes
04:05 gwern alrigh, but what do you actually do with it? is it good for post-mortem debugging or something?
04:06 TimToady it uses yaml to save compiled images of Prelude.pm and Test.pm, at least
04:06 TimToady speeds up startup a lot
04:06 TimToady commit bit sent
04:07 TimToady it's customary to add yourself to AUTHORS on first commit
04:07 gwern ah. so Prelude.pm and Test.pm need to do a lot of data munging and this is used for caching the end products to disk?
04:07 TimToady yes
04:07 gwern TimToady: aight
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04:12 pugs_svnbot r19953 | lwall++ | [gimme5] can now parse integer 42 running STD under Perl 5
04:12 pugs_svnbot r19953 | lwall++ | [Cursor5,STD5] now strict and warnings clean
04:12 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19953
04:12 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19953 - Pugs - Trac
04:13 gwern neat bot.  #haskell needs that for hackage uploads!
04:14 diakopter the bot runs in pugs. Although a much simpler one could be made to check the rss feeds from the trac (or SVN::Web) site.
04:14 gwern man, now I'm confused. hackage has hssyck 0.4, but the one in pugs is 0.2?
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04:27 * diakopter [OT] just discovered the VPSes at serveraxis.com.  Half the price of what I'm currently paying, and they're Xen, not VZ.
04:28 Tene [OT] I can voich that http://www.neverblock.com/ has decent xen hosting, but I have no clue what the pricing looks like.
04:29 lambdabot Title: Com.org - Only the best links ...
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04:30 diakopter lambdabot's DNS lookup got hijacked
04:30 diakopter or something
04:30 Auzon http://google.com
04:30 lambdabot Title: Google
04:30 Tene Huh.  Spooky.
04:30 diakopter http://www.endspa
04:31 diakopter lambdabot: http://www.endspamemails.com/
04:31 diakopter ok...
04:31 Auzon Maybe it parsed it incorrectly.
04:32 diakopter re: neverblock I need 8x more RAM than their VPSes provide
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04:58 cj diakopter: how does ec2 compare?
05:02 buu serveraxis.com.
05:02 buu http://www.neverblock.com/
05:02 buu Uselss bot.
05:02 lambdabot Title: NeverBlock Reliable Virtual Private Servers
05:02 Auzon hah
05:20 gwern in case anyone was wondering, I've made it up to 56 of 109 in the build process thus far
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05:22 gwern but I think I will call it a night here
05:25 Tene g'night
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06:22 spinclad cj: re inject *multiple* value:  C< say "blah {$x.fmt('%a')} blah {$y.fmt('%b')} blah"; >  may improve on sprintf style in some ways (keeping value, injection point, and format together)
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09:38 pugs_svnbot r19954 | lwall++ | [gimme5] some utf8 coercions to get around yaml yuck
09:38 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19954
09:38 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19954 - Pugs - Trac
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10:20 ruoso TimToady, have you seen my questions about STM yesterday?
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11:34 ruoso After a little more thinking about STM... I think it would be sane for it to be Object-based. Which means that only STM-aware objects are going to pay attention to the transaction... but I don't think side-effects should be tracked...
11:36 ruoso the user must know that the code in a contend block is subject to retry, and that only STM-aware objects will be rolled back
11:38 ruoso there's actually no way of keeping track of side effects... considering we can have unknown representations
11:38 ruoso that can dispatch the method calls however they want...
11:41 ruoso if we think this way... we can have a simple "autocommit" property on the current interpreter instance, where a STM-aware object would check and implement the transaction, knowing that the current interpreter is the transaction holder, and probably registering in the interpreter as commit-listener...
11:42 ruoso but there's still the issue of making the commit atomic...
11:42 ruoso probably implementing a distributed-transaction-like api could solve it
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11:46 ruoso TimToady, can we have contend inside contends?
11:50 ruoso if so, the interpreter would have to hold a "transaction" reference... that would be undef most of the time, and at that time, the objects would always auto-commit...
11:51 ruoso and this transaction object would implement a distributed-transaction api where each object would hold its own transaction...
11:54 ruoso and this same api would implement the creation of a sub-transaction...
11:55 ruoso but for all this, keeping track of side effects is still impossible
11:59 ruoso in fact... keeping track of side effects is actually a bad idea...
11:59 ruoso considering one STM-aware object might be an ORM objcet
11:59 ruoso which means that it might actually be using IO to implement the transaction
12:03 ruoso which means that there is no actual STM, but simply Distributed Transactions
12:04 ruoso where the interpreter is simply the Distributed Transaction Coordinator
12:08 ruoso it may actually be more impressive to think about Perl 6 implementing the XA spec than using STM... specially for enterprise software development
12:10 ruoso think about web-service objects that transparently integrate the transaction... where the perl code simply looks like a normal set of calls...
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12:21 pugs_svnbot r19955 | putter++ | [misc/STD_red] progress.  std.rb is now a careless mostly-non-working Match-free version of STD.pm in ruby.  next step is s/careless//.
12:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19955
12:21 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19955 - Pugs - Trac
12:25 mncharity gwern: thanks for your work! :)
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13:56 wolverian Juerd, I really like perluniadvice. do you have any thoughts on alternative XML processors, e.g. XML::LibXML; how does it handle unicode?
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14:15 masak why does a Match object have an "underlying result object"?
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14:15 masak why aren't the two the same?
14:20 spinclad masak, so it can still have positional and named submatches, no?
14:21 masak the match? hm.
14:21 masak I guess I'm just philosophically confused about the difference between a Match and a match result
14:21 spinclad at least that's how i read the difference: the result object is the match's scalar value
14:22 masak ah
14:22 masak ok, that makes sense
14:22 masak also, what exactly is a 'zen slice'?
14:23 masak is it used outside of regexes?
14:23 masak where is it spec:ed?
14:25 spinclad mentioned in S05:2164 and S09:596
14:25 masak spinclad: thx. I saw the mention in S05 and didn't really understand
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14:26 masak but I'll go read the S09 mention now and maybe it'll get better
14:26 spinclad a 'zen slice' is an empty slice: @x[], meaning @x[*] (all elements)
14:26 masak hm, yes
14:29 spinclad sorry, not === @x[*], but only the currently defined indices.
14:29 masak yes
14:30 masak would it be reasonable/desirable to disallow certain deep indexings of $/ based on the structure of the regex?
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14:30 masak e.g. $4 is disallowed if there is no fifth group
14:31 masak and $0[0][0] is disallowed if there is no triple nesting in the first group
14:31 spinclad (ick. still haven't said it right. anyone listening, just see S09 for it.)
14:31 masak spinclad: I thought that was it. but I will read S09 carefully
14:32 spinclad s/defined/allocated/
14:32 masak right.
14:33 spinclad re disallow, that sounds right.
14:33 masak sounds like a natural consequence of regexes becoming more declarative
14:37 cj spinclad: is this implemented in mp6?
14:38 cj spinclad: also, is there an sprintf in p6?
14:39 spinclad re sprintf: there will be i expect, though not specced yet.
14:43 spinclad :perl6 my $whom = 'world'; say "hello {$x.fmt(%s)}"
14:43 spinclad perl6: my $whom = 'world'; say "hello {$x.fmt(%s)}"
14:43 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[hello {.fmt(%s)}␤]
14:43 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "."␤    expecting "::"␤    Variable "$x" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤    at /tmp/d9CBww4ueO line 1, column 35␤]
14:43 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[No scope found for PAST::Var '$x'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;panic' pc 158 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:103)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PAST::Compiler;post_children' pc 1117 (src/PAST/Compiler.pir:138)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PAST::Compiler;pirop' pc 1906
14:43 exp_evalbot ..(src/PAST/Compiler.pir:423)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PAST::Compiler;post_child...
14:44 cj panic!!!
14:44 spinclad re implemented in mp6, you mean .fmt?  probably not.  i would not count on any existing implementation (pugs, kp6, rakudo...) being complete, particularly in details like this.
14:45 spinclad (perl6: asks all three)
14:45 cj spinclad: I expected as much.  If there is going to be a perl6 sprintf, I would like to add it to mp6 so that kp6's perl5 emitter work can be generalized
14:45 cj TimToady.push("spec sprintf")
14:45 spinclad perl6: my $whom = 'world'; say "hello {$whom.fmt(%s)}"  # third try
14:45 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[substr outside of string at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MP6Runtime.pm line 98, <> line 1.␤substr outside of string at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MP6Runtime.pm line 98, <> line 1.␤substr outside of string at
14:45 exp_evalbot ..compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MP6Runtime.pm line 98, <> line 1...
14:45 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected ")}\""␤    expecting "::"␤    Variable "%s" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤    at /tmp/8woZAedi8E line 1, column 45␤]
14:45 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[hello {world.fmt(%s)}␤]
14:46 cj you screwed up my irssi :)
14:46 spinclad so, none of them.  some don't even do "string {expr}" interpolation
14:47 Juerd wolverian: I have very limited experience with XML processors. I recall that XML::LibXML does it pretty well, but if I were sure it'd be on perluniadvice :)
14:48 spinclad cj: sorry.  i see now i can /msg exp_evalbot for private queries.
14:48 cj spinclad: :)
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14:51 spinclad pugs actually wins
14:51 spinclad pugs: my $x = 'world'; say "hello {$x.fmt('%s')}"
14:51 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[hello world␤]
14:53 spinclad the others miss both {...} and $x.method interpolation
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14:55 spinclad cj: better to leave mp6 fixed i fancy.  once kp6 bootstraps (come the day), it would make sense enough to add it there.
14:55 spinclad though if it turns out to be easy...
14:56 cj -- Macro: AC_INIT (PACKAGE, VERSION, [BUG-REPORT], [TARNAME])
14:56 cj Process any command-line arguments and perform various
14:56 cj initializations and verifications.
14:56 cj eep.  wrong channel.. sorry
14:58 spinclad i think the intent of mp6 is to be strictly low-level: no interpolation at all; if you want to interpolate, you can paste the string together with ~ yourself.
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15:05 cj spinclad: that's what they're doing now... it seems somewhat painful, but I guess it will work :)
15:05 * cj makes a patch
15:12 cj if I wanted to create a class member (say, $newline), how would I a) declare it and b) reference it from a class method?
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15:40 masak in the following regex
15:40 masak mm/ mv $0=<file>+ /
15:41 masak what part or feature matches the spaces between files?
15:42 [particle1 from STD.pm, token quote:mm { <sym> <quotesnabber(':regex', ':s')> }
15:42 [particle1 so, mm// turns on :regex and :sigspace
15:42 masak (hm, maybe none, because the subsequent example in S05 is m/ mv \s+ $<from>=(\S+ \s+)* /)
15:42 masak yes
15:43 masak does that mean that spaces between <file>s are allowed?
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15:43 masak in that case, I've underestimated :sigspace
15:43 [particle] i think so, but i'd need to test it to be sure
15:43 [particle] pmichaud: ping
15:44 masak if t'were mm/ mv <file> <file> /, I would not hesitate
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15:44 masak but it's mm/ mv <file>+ /
15:44 [particle] right
15:47 pmichaud pong
15:48 pmichaud $0=<file>+ doesn't match spaces between files (assuming that <file> doesn't eat spaces)
15:48 [particle] ok, so spec bug
15:48 masak that's what I thought
15:48 pmichaud where is that particular instance?
15:48 [particle] should be [<file><.ws>]+
15:49 masak S05:2870
15:50 pmichaud ah, in S05.  I thought we had already fixed those.
15:50 [particle] S05:2648
15:50 [particle] would [<file> ]+ work?
15:51 [particle] probably not
15:51 pmichaud sure, that works
15:51 masak :)
15:51 [particle] wow. dwim++
15:54 pmichaud although I think I'd write it as  [ <file>]+ instead
15:55 pmichaud for clarity it should probably be  [ <file> ]+
15:56 masak would that guarantee that no space is required after the last <file>?
15:56 pmichaud well, the normal meaning of :sigspace is "optional whitespace between tokens"
15:57 pmichaud where it becomes "required whitespace between word tokens"
15:58 pmichaud anyway,  [ <file> ]+  would capture one or more <file>s separated by spaces.  spaces would only be required between pairs of <files> that end/begin with a word character
16:00 [particle] masak++ for spec bug hunting
16:00 pmichaud believe it or not, in this particular case I believe it was proposed that we keep <file>+ even though it's technically incorrect
16:00 pmichaud I'm checking my design team notes
16:01 masak [particle]: I'm trying extra hard to internalize p6 rules right now
16:02 masak pmichaud: I don't see what would be the point of keeping a regex which has been proven non-useful, even if it's just an example
16:02 [particle] without a note about it, at least.
16:03 pmichaud I agree -- that's why I'm re-checking my notes about it
16:12 pmichaud okay, found the thread, now to re-read it.
16:15 pugs_svnbot r19956 | gwern++ | This patch updates pugs-hsregex; it should work with both 6.6 and 6.8.2. However, backwards compatibility requires Cabal versions equal to or greater than 1.2 (so you can use the conditional syntax to change build-dependencies on base).
16:15 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19956
16:15 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19956 - Pugs - Trac
16:18 pugs_svnbot r19957 | gwern++ | Update HsSyck to merge in the Haddock documentation and the Cabal sdist improvements which constituted 0.3 and 0.4. This version also updates hsSyck to work with modern ByteStrings, bytestring>=0.9.0.1, which is the oldest one packaged with GHC 6.8.x. (You can get this and hsregex on Hackage as well.)
16:18 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19957
16:18 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19957 - Pugs - Trac
16:23 pmichaud hmmm, I can't find where we had that discussion in my mail archives.  Perhaps it was in a conference call, then.
16:28 pmichaud afk, lunch & errands
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17:25 pugs_svnbot r19958 | gwern++ | Update HsJudy's bytestring call, also update for split-base. As before, requires a more recent Cabal so can use conditionals, and as before, this package is now also on Hackage. While I was at it, I did some -Wall cleanup
17:25 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19958
17:25 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19958 - Pugs - Trac
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17:52 pugs_svnbot r19959 | gwern++ | Cleanup Str.hs and Types.hs, and add necessary bytestring updates
17:52 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19959
17:52 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19959 - Pugs - Trac
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17:55 pugs_svnbot r19960 | gwern++ | Cleanup UTF8.hs for ByteString update
17:55 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19960
17:55 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19960 - Pugs - Trac
17:56 pugs_svnbot r19961 | gwern++ | Update GHC 6.8.1 notes with my observations;
17:56 pugs_svnbot r19961 | gwern++ | Add myself to AUTHORS;
17:56 pugs_svnbot r19961 | gwern++ | Add my favorite book series to READTHEM;
17:56 pugs_svnbot r19961 | gwern++ | Revamp the Pugs.cabal.in. This includes formatting, additional metadata, and adds a dependency on a more recent bytestring (to work with all the preceding patches), and also a Cabal, because we need that oldtime section syntax... for compatibility with GHC 6.6 & 6.8
17:56 pugs_svnbot r19961 | gwern++ | Remove a regexp from util/build_pugs.pl because we can't have backwards compatbility with that old Cabals if we want 6.8.x as well, so it merely messes up the generated Cabal file.
17:56 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19961
17:56 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19961 - Pugs - Trac
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18:22 mncharity re sprintf, pugs has it.  it's in src/perl6/Prelude.pm.
18:22 mncharity written a very long time ago to make some pugs t/ pass.
18:23 mncharity wow, gwern++
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18:24 Gwern-away don't count your chickens until they hatch; dunno how well my patches work for other peoplpe
18:25 mncharity pugs> sprintf("%03d",4)
18:25 mncharity Gwern-away: regardless, it's nice to see. :)
18:26 mncharity 6: sprintf("%03d",3)
18:26 mncharity (that last is ./misc/pX/Common/redsix/redsix -e 'sprintf("%03d",4)' )
18:27 mncharity re sprintf being not spec'ed, wouldn't it fall under the "everything is the same as p5, unless it isn't" default?
18:33 spinclad pugs: sprintf ('%03d', 4)
18:33 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Insufficient arguments to sprintf␤    at Prelude.pm line 668, column 13-53␤]
18:33 spinclad pugs: sprintf('%03d', 4)
18:33 exp_evalbot RESULT[\"004"]
18:35 rakudo_svn r25904 | particle++ | [rakudo] bringing regex/token/rule support closer to correct -- everything still acts like regex
18:35 spinclad re 'same as p5', yes... though we're more or less planning to move away from that dependency, in the long run.
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18:39 spinclad s/more or less//
18:40 mncharity :)
18:42 spinclad gwern++  # i'll give it a spin after lunch.  (still at ghc 6.6.1 this week)
18:42 * mncharity contemplates @fate
18:43 * spinclad goes off to eat &
18:43 TimToady currently @fate is slightly oversimplified
18:43 * spinclad lets & contemplate its own @fate
18:44 * ruoso disturbed after reading about message-passing-concurrency
18:44 ruoso TimToady, have you seen my comments on STM?
18:44 TimToady yes
18:45 ruoso so?
18:45 TimToady I just wanted you to think about it, is all :)
18:45 ruoso but I mean
18:45 TimToady and you did!
18:45 ruoso is the idea of not tracking side-effects at all acceptable?
18:45 TimToady I don't see it in the spec anywhere  :)
18:46 ruoso :)
18:46 TimToady I think in the two layer model the upper layer is more STMish and the bottom layer more Erlangish
18:46 TimToady you've seen the paper on that?
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18:47 ruoso I've seen Joe Armstrong thesis (chapter 2 only, actually)
18:47 ruoso not thesis, dissertation
18:48 pmichaud TimToady: (from scrollback)  there was discussion earlier about    mm/ mv <file>+ <file> /   in S05
18:48 pmichaud in particular, the notion that <file>+ doesn't include any separators
18:48 ruoso TimToady, two layer model?
18:49 pmichaud should we fix S05 to read  mm/ mv [ <file> ]+ <file> /    ?
18:49 * ruoso have his head spinning... so ideas are not getting out in the correct order...
18:49 TimToady pmichaud: no, I just put in a note about assuming <file> is smart
18:50 pmichaud okay, that works then.  thanks.
18:50 pmichaud I agree that having <file>+ makes more sense from an illustrative perspective
18:50 TimToady also decided ** \s+ was okay
18:50 TimToady rather than disallowing quantifiers on the right side
18:50 ruoso TimToady, what paper?
18:51 TimToady I'm trying to remember where it is.
18:51 TimToady it's a Haskell paper about running transactions on top of a monad that runs an event engine underneath
18:52 ruoso ah... that one I certainly didn't see...
18:52 TimToady something you should look at, if we can dig it up
18:53 pmichaud From S05:  "Assume that our file subrule requires a real boundary at that point using..."   Actually, in order for the <file>**{2} and <file>+ examples to work later, the file subrule needs to eat the separators as well, yes?
18:54 ruoso I was thinking, while reading armstrong's dissertation, about how we could mix the erlang's view on the idea of message queue for each object and an OO interpreter view
18:54 TimToady oh, I was gonna change those to <file> ** 2 and forgot
18:55 TimToady <.ws> will certainly eat the whitespace as long as <file> guarantees its there
18:55 TimToady *it's
18:55 TimToady this is my brain on flu, any questions...  :/
18:55 pmichaud right.  perhaps cleaner is to say that "assume that our C<file> subrule handles any separators between elements"
18:56 pmichaud flu--
18:56 ruoso but in the end I realised this is a completely different question... and contend also relates to groups of messages... a problem I don't know if message-passing-concurrency solves
18:57 pmichaud the flu around here cost me two weeks (4 days taking care of sick child, 2 days taking care of myself, six days with sick wife in hospital)
18:57 ruoso but I'm pretty sure that it's very unlikely that we can have haskell-like stm in Perl 6, considering the support for different representations...
18:58 pmichaud time for another errand.  I may be a few minutes late to today's phone call
18:59 TimToady http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~lipeng/homepage/unify.html
18:59 lambdabot Title: Unifying events and threads
18:59 * ruoso will print and read in the way home
18:59 TimToady it's not the paper, but it has a link
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19:00 ruoso yeah... i got it
19:01 ruoso but I think I'm pretty happy with the native-XA idea
19:01 ruoso instead of real STM
19:01 TimToady what is XA?
19:02 ruoso distributed transaction x/open api
19:02 TimToady link?
19:03 ruoso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X/Open_XA
19:03 lambdabot Title: X/Open XA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
19:03 ruoso but the basic idea is, since we can't presume to know the representation of the objects to implement STM,
19:03 ruoso we implement distributed transactions coordinated by the current interpreter
19:04 ruoso using an explicit API
19:04 ruoso so the objects that are XA-aware will be rolled-back or commited...
19:04 ruoso while everything else will simply be repeated
19:06 ruoso so every XA-aware object is understood as a resource manager
19:07 ruoso the contend block is the Application Program
19:07 ruoso anyway...
19:08 ruoso need to go...
19:08 * ruoso will backlog, as usual...
19:19 Aankh|Clone joined #perl6
19:19 pugs_svnbot r19962 | gwern++ | Move all uses of pugs-HsSyck to simply HsSyck; it's a package useful for more than Pugs, and this makes it easier to synch with Hackage.
19:19 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19962
19:19 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19962 - Pugs - Trac
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20:06 testing I'm looking for some help on bitwise operations of strings
20:09 testing is this a good channel for getting help?
20:09 [particle] yes, if you're patient. have you looked at the tests?
20:10 PerlJam testing: and just to check ... this is #perl6, so we're assuming you're talking about perl6 bitwise ops :)
20:12 testing PerlJam: thank you, I just checked and I am using perl5.8, I will move to #perl
20:20 TimToady S02 mentions "identifier extensions" in the section describing adverbial
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20:25 TimToady oops, that was a paste error...
20:25 testing left #perl6
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20:53 Tene So, is there a way to operate on an entire array without using all(), any(), none(), etc?
20:53 Tene Similar to a junction, but preserves both order and duplicates?
20:53 [particle] for() ?
20:54 Tene I'm hoping to have something I can just run function($a,$b)
20:54 Tene Which works fine with junctions...
20:54 Tene But fails when there are duplicate results.
20:54 Tene For some definition of "fails"
20:56 Tene I can do it manually using nested for loops.
20:56 Tene I guess I could define an infix operator and use » and «
21:04 pmichaud map?
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21:16 pugs_svnbot r19963 | lwall++ | [STD] put regex into its own subgrammar
21:16 pugs_svnbot r19963 | lwall++ | eliminate assertstopper kludge in favor of virtual stdstopper
21:16 pugs_svnbot r19963 | lwall++ | make ** separator quantifiable
21:16 pugs_svnbot r19963 | lwall++ | override ws to match only if insignificant
21:16 pugs_svnbot r19963 | lwall++ | significant whitespace is now a metacharacter
21:16 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19963
21:16 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19963 - Pugs - Trac
21:21 ron___ perl6: say "hello"
21:21 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[hello␤]
21:21 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[hello␤]
21:21 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[hello␤]
21:21 chris2 joined #perl6
21:21 ron___ perl6: sub fizzle ($must_fizzle, :$may_fuzzle) { say "definately time to $must_fizzle"; if ($may_fuzzle) { say "ok - also $may_fuzzle" } else { say "hey - no fuzzling" } } fizzle 'drizzle'; fizzle 'drizzle', 'dazzle'; fizzle 'druzzle', 'dazzle', 'chowder';
21:21 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤   KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x824cabc)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e54160)') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169␤
21:21 exp_evalbot ..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824cabc)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e54160)') ca...
21:21 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[definately time to drizzle␤hey - no fuzzling␤definately time to drizzle␤hey - no fuzzling␤*** No compatible multi variant found: "&fizzle"␤    at /tmp/NHLfTg2eq1 line 1, column 212-249␤]
21:21 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "fizzle 'dr"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤called from Sub 'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statementlist' pc 15013 (src/gen_grammar.pir:2402)␤called from Sub
21:21 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statement_block' pc 12200 (src/gen_grammar.pir:1396)␤called f...
21:23 pmichaud need a statement terminator after the sub's closing }
21:24 ron___ Am a bit of a novice.  Anyone: in pugs how come the second call with two parms is accepted but the third with three is rejected ?
21:25 pmichaud because the sub only accepts two args?
21:26 pmichaud the sub is defined as having one required, one optional (named) argument.
21:26 ron___ sorry - confused by named args but think I understand now.
21:34 ron___ perl6: sub fizzle ($must_fizzle) { say "definately time to $must_fizzle"; } fizzle 'drizzle'; fizzle 'drizzle', 'dazzle', 'chowder';
21:34 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤   KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x824ca44)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e54af4)') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169␤
21:34 exp_evalbot ..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824ca44)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e54af4)') ca...
21:34 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[definately time to drizzle␤definately time to drizzle␤]
21:34 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "fizzle 'dr"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤called from Sub 'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statementlist' pc 15013 (src/gen_grammar.pir:2402)␤called from Sub
21:34 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statement_block' pc 12200 (src/gen_grammar.pir:1396)␤called f...
21:35 TimToady note that anyone that runs that successfully is not up to spec
21:35 [particle] ron___: try "pugs:" for less noise
21:35 TimToady as pmichaud said, the final } is required to have a ; if you're going to continue on the same line
21:36 TimToady pugs is not correct to assume the ; there
21:36 ron___ That only takes one parameter but works with three.
21:36 ron___ pugs: sub fizzle ($must_fizzle) { say "definately time to $must_fizzle"; } ; fizzle 'drizzle'; fizzle 'drizzle', 'dazzle', 'chowder';
21:36 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[definately time to drizzle␤definately time to drizzle␤]
21:37 TimToady that should also not be packing three args into one according to recent spec
21:37 [particle] pugsbugs
21:38 ron___ Am a novice - should I take further action?
21:38 TimToady well, that only changed last week, up till then sub foo ($x) made a unary function
21:38 TimToady now it's just a list operator and fails to bind 3 args to one parameter
21:38 TimToady but nobody implements that yet
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