Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-02-21

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:40 cj hurm... is the reason that v6-KindaPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Visitor/Emit/Perl5.pm doesn't declare its namespace using 'package' because mp6 doesn't know how to do that?
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00:56 cj does mp6 know how to do inheritence?
01:01 cj s/ence/ance/ :)
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01:22 cj does parrot allow you to do anything like perl -c? :)
01:31 TimToady that would be better to ask on #parrot
01:31 pugs_svnbot r19964 | lwall++ | [gimme5] random cleanups
01:31 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19964
01:31 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19964 - Pugs - Trac
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02:04 meppl good night
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02:31 pugs_svnbot r19965 | gwern++ | rm some now-useless stuff from the 6.8 patch. I hand-applied most of the changes and couldn't get it to work, which is a bit frustrating.
02:31 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19965
02:31 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19965 - Pugs - Trac
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04:34 allbery_b juerd / tene : ping
04:34 Tene allbery_b: hi
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04:34 allbery_b see above
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04:35 Tene Ahh.
04:35 was kicked by Tene: Tene
04:35 was kicked by Tene: Tene
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04:36 was kicked by Tene: Tene
04:36 allbery_b danke schön
04:36 * allbery_b has no idea what that was about but it was annoying
04:37 allbery_b Tene++
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04:37 youaredead4725 '(y(-((u-nru'-'_,",,'-_,-_-(_"-,_"'-_,"',-_�"​''-"",'"',",'",_-'_(',_'(-_',(_-,'-_,(-_-_,''​(y(-((u-nru'-'_,",,'-_,-_-(_"-,_"'-_,"',-_�"'​'-"",'"',",'",_-'_(',_'(-_',(_-,'-_,(-_-_,'
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04:37 youaredead4595 '(y(-((u-nru'-'_,",,'-_,-_-(_"-,_"'-_,"',-_�"​''-"",'"',",'",_-'_(',_'(-_',(_-,'-_,(-_-_,''​(y(-((u-nru'-'_,",,'-_,-_-(_"-,_"'-_,"',-_�"'​'-"",'"',",'",_-'_(',_'(-_',(_-,'-_,(-_-_,'
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04:37 youaredead4725 '(y(-((u-nru'-'_,",,'-_,-_-(_"-,_"'-_,"',-_�"​''-"",'"',",'",_-'_(',_'(-_',(_-,'-_,(-_-_,''​(y(-((u-nru'-'_,",,'-_,-_-(_"-,_"'-_,"',-_�"'​'-"",'"',",'",_-'_(',_'(-_',(_-,'-_,(-_-_,'
04:37 youaredead4595 '(y(-((u-nru'-'_,",,'-_,-_-(_"-,_"'-_,"',-_�"​''-"",'"',",'",_-'_(',_'(-_',(_-,'-_,(-_-_,''​(y(-((u-nru'-'_,",,'-_,-_-(_"-,_"'-_,"',-_�"'​'-"",'"',",'",_-'_(',_'(-_',(_-,'-_,(-_-_,'
04:37 allbery_b sigh
04:42 * allbery_b thinks he'll involve opers next time...
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04:43 Tene I was just thinking the same.
04:55 TimToady Tene can you oper me?  seem to have lost it at some point
04:56 TimToady thanks
04:56 Tene You should be able to say /msg chanserv op #perl6 if you're identified and set with rights on the channel
04:57 TimToady that may be more possible now that I'm not coming from a dynamic IP, which (I was told) was the problem with that earlier...
04:57 Tene Looks like you're not set with privs.
04:57 allbery_b chanserv thinks he's not allowed to have rights, it nukes his opr every time it's restarted or rejoins from a netsplit
04:58 * TimToady .oO(that's because I'm a *dangerous* man!)
04:58 allbery_b beware of the keeper of the swiss army tac nuke
04:59 Tene looks like only 'autrijus' has privs to modify the access list.
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05:47 rakudo_svn r25915 | petdance++ | Added tene's patch to Object.pir to do say. Added a perl6 test to test it out.
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06:12 pmichaud pugs: <ok 4>.say
06:12 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[ok4␤]
06:13 pmichaud pugs: (~<ok 4>).say
06:13 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[ok 4␤]
06:13 rakudo_svn r25922 | pmichaud++ | [perl6]:
06:13 rakudo_svn r25922 | pmichaud++ | * .say method should redispatch to say() function. instead of
06:13 rakudo_svn r25922 | pmichaud++ |   printing directly.
06:13 rakudo_svn r25923 | petergibbs++ | Set svn properties to keep file_metadata.t happy
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06:33 rakudo_svn r25925 | petdance++ | added some new sneaky ways to invoke say, but ok 4 started failing on me all of a sudden.
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07:51 pugs_svnbot r19966 | lwall++ | [gimme5] can now fallback on normal match if lexer fails
07:51 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19966
07:51 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19966 - Pugs - Trac
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08:56 Juerd allbery_b: pong
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10:33 GPenguin does anybody know whats up with moritz_?
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11:17 ruoso TimToady, I've read that paper... It's interesting to notice that it is, in theory, very simple to implement that in SMOP. The fact that the SMOP interpreter is an object itself, allows us to implement several interesting features...
11:17 ruoso like STM-like interface using distributed transactions
11:18 ruoso async IO programmed as sync IO
11:18 ruoso and I was even thinking about implementing positronic variables
11:18 ruoso just because I can ;)
11:20 ruoso one thing I was thinking on the other hand is about syntax (for the async IO programmed as sync IO)
11:20 ruoso at first I thought that while ($conn.accept()) { ... } could transparently create as much lines of execution as needed
11:21 ruoso it could have weird side effects if the user don't expect that
11:23 ruoso maybe it's more reasonable going to a java-like solution... which would be
11:23 ruoso $conn.handle($handler_object)
11:24 ruoso where $handler_object.^can("run"), and that code is supposed to have concurrent executions...
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11:38 ruoso POE implemented in SMOP would be able to have a preemptive multitask, that's something that is in my mind since I reached to the current interpreter design
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11:41 ruoso in fact... as SMOP is supposedly thread-safe, POE implemented in SMOP could mix green threads and os threads...
11:45 * ruoso still wonder which lesser exotic name could be given to positronic variables, as junctions came for quantum superpositions...
11:46 * ruoso really believes that positronic variables may create a different and simpler perspective to some algorithms... the bsearch example given by damian at YAPC::EU still impesses me...
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15:01 allbery_b Juerd: sorry, was looking for a chanop when the channel was being bugged,
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15:12 GPenguin 70 hours idle, i hope moritz_ is doing fine
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15:39 * mncharity goes to try running gimme5...
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15:45 pugs_svnbot r19967 | putter++ | src/perl6/gimme5: switch from #!/usr/local/bin/perl to  #!/usr/bin/perl  (as ./cheat is already).  Hopefully the difference isn't intentional.
15:45 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19967
15:45 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19967 - Pugs - Trac
15:45 * ruoso . o O ( the silence on the things I've wrote may mean two things... or I am so offtopic that no one has hope in pointing me the right direction, or it just makes sense and nobody has nothing to add...  )
15:46 * mncharity backlogs...
15:46 [particle] ruoso: things you've wrote on channel?
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15:48 ruoso yep
15:49 * [particle] generally doesn't backlog, but does read the mailing list
15:52 * allbery_b no clue but suggests that mailing lists are better for tossing such things around; here, it was in a vacuum
15:54 mncharity ruoso: if the topic is your most recent paragraphs, I brief scan suggests they boil down to "SMOP can do it, and other neat stuff too" :), and 'musing on syntax'.  does that cover it?  The former I took as a status update.  I should have said "neat!". :)  The latter...  syntax musing ends up being mostly tossing ideas into the pool, until things are actually working, at which time it gets pursued with a bit more intent.
15:55 TimToady I'm not usually up at 3:00 am...
15:55 [particle] slacker.
15:55 * mncharity wonders if I've *ever* done a p6l post... not sure.
15:55 TimToady the reason I had /usr/local/bin/perl is because /usr/bin/perl on fedora isn't 5.10 yet, and I was using // freely :)
15:55 * ruoso have success in his experiment... ;)... drama works in #perl6 ;)
15:56 TimToady but I should really be using make to run things anyway...
15:56 [particle] why don't you 'use 5.010;' instead of relying on broken shebangs?
15:56 mncharity re 5.10, oh, drat.  sorry.  was just barely below threshold for asking before commiting.  reverting. :)
15:56 GPenguin ruoso: you mean #perl and not #perl6 with the drama, right? :-)
15:56 TimToady ruoso: well, of course, that's because the camel is a drama dairy.
15:56 ruoso heh
15:57 TimToady [particle]: if I were going to rely on use 5.010, I'd use 6 instead :)
15:58 TimToady as far as I know, use 5.010 merely fails if the version isn't high enough
15:59 [particle] yes, it fails
16:00 pugs_svnbot r19968 | putter++ | src/perl6/gimme5: reverted r19967.  gimme5, unlike cheat, requires 5.010.  Added 'use 5.010;'.
16:00 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19968
16:00 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19968 - Pugs - Trac
16:00 TimToady so maybe there should be some mechanism in Perl for looking for the newer version and running that when you say "use 6.1"
16:00 TimToady instead of scattering versions in random locations around the filesystem
16:01 TimToady if we register all versions of modules in the standard library, and perl 6 registers its version and location...
16:02 mncharity re gimme5 parsing 42, are things set up so I can hand something 42 and get back a match object?  reason for asking is
16:04 TimToady 'course, my shell can find perl5.10.0 perfectly well, but then #! can't be as smart for some reason
16:05 TimToady .matchify doesn't really work yet, so all you can get back is a Cursor
16:05 TimToady part of the reason for switching to p5 was that pugs was too flakey to write .matchify
16:06 mncharity it might be nice to set up a full pipeline.  gimme5 takes 42, hands back a match object.  I write something which takes that match and dumps a yaml version of kp6's ast.  which something else picks up and dumps "transliterate to p5" for.  and "to ruby".  and others can start migrating kp6 backends to use the full STD.  and shaking down their runtimes.  and
16:07 mncharity STD_red can plug in if needed to provide a complementary but compatible source of ast's.  maybe even a quicky from redsix to.  so by end of day, a full pipeline is up, even if the current flow is just a trickle.  and rather than thinking of it as a pipeline,
16:09 mncharity it's more a "ok, here is the exposed data.  there's more than one person working on it, so it's real, and not going to just evaporate.  and you can start doing your thing, whatever that is, right now.  integrated with what everyone else is doing".
16:09 mncharity or something vaguely like that.  maybe.  the hope is.
16:11 mncharity hmm.  maybe I _should_ of put off presenting that concept until after breakfast, to increase clarity.  ah well.
16:11 mncharity thoughts?
16:12 TimToady .oO(coffee!!!)
16:12 mncharity :)
16:13 GPenguin :D
16:14 TimToady .oO(!flu would also be nice)
16:16 TimToady mostly I've been doing depth-first programming on longest-token matching because everyone else was taking the breadth-first approach, to the first approx
16:16 TimToady so nobody was looking at DFA matching
16:17 TimToady also, is kb6 ast actually documented anywhere?
16:17 TimToady *kp6
16:18 TimToady that sounds more snide than I mean it
16:18 TimToady I just haven't looked
16:18 TimToady since I've been concentrating elsewhere
16:18 mncharity the basic ideas are "avoid another monolithic system".  like pugs (monolithic because it's yaml is incomplete), kp6, redsix.  redsix should *not* start emitting say p5 code.  if anything, it should start dumping yaml. <pause>
16:19 mncharity re documented, I'm not sure.  that would indeed be a todo.
16:19 TimToady anyhoo, up till now the parts that I felt I had to concentrate on were too far removed from reality to worry about integration
16:20 TimToady but you're right, it seems like we're getting a lot closer to that point
16:20 mncharity basically, it seems like we've gotten away from the concept that "doing a parse requires a complete running p6 hanging off the parser".  it may be true ultimately, but not near term.  that "not trying to do it near term" means we can decouple implementation and development better.
16:22 TimToady well, pugs had the right idea insofar as the bootstrap for a real compiler must be written in another high-level language
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16:22 TimToady it's just that p5 is sufficiently close for an approach like gimme5 to work on STD
16:22 TimToady and haskell isn't so close
16:23 spinclad positronics++  # next: asimovian robots!
16:23 TimToady and doubtless the bottom up approach of parrot would work eventually too
16:23 TimToady but I've always refused to learn PIR :)
16:23 spinclad but what is the damage when variables and antivariables meet?
16:24 [particle] just write non-strict perl without semicolons
16:24 [particle] it'll probably compile ;)
16:24 spinclad no, keep anti/variables apart with ;'s !
16:25 spinclad sorry, wrong thread?
16:26 TimToady as long as one [particle] is spinclad up and there is spinclad down, there's no trouble
16:26 TimToady s/there/the other/
16:26 [particle] or half-spinclad
16:26 mncharity re comments, agreed.  i'm more observing that given this moment, what we understand, and how we think we want to approach things, what pieces we have lying around, what we are currently working on... our constraints on development may now be quite different then they have been historically.
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16:27 spinclad spinhalfclad
16:27 mncharity so different that we might be able to crack things wide open, like, today.
16:28 TimToady and add a STDbot to the list?  :)
16:29 mncharity STDbot?
16:29 spinclad 'keep those uptime and downtime particles apart! don't cross the streams!'
16:29 TimToady eval: 42
16:29 TimToady perl6: 42
16:29 mncharity :)
16:29 exp_evalbot kp6: RESULT[42]
16:29 exp_evalbot ..pugs: RESULT[42]
16:29 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: RESULT[Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block10' pc 35 (EVAL_10:16)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 789 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:459)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1063 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:586)␤called
16:29 exp_evalbot ..from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1246 (...
16:29 mncharity redsix: 42
16:29 mncharity snif.
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16:30 mncharity but that would be security headache noone wants. :)
16:30 [particle] the only thing keeping me in this channel is my magnetic bottle []
16:30 spinclad just don't let it do anything interesting.
16:30 TimToady yes, well, especially since gimme5 scribbles the filesystem currently to keep its cache
16:30 TimToady so STD5 has to read the filesystem at least
16:31 TimToady and there goes /etc/passwd to St Petersburg...
16:32 TimToady well, there's chroot for that, at least, and maybe Safe
16:32 * spinclad is lost in superposed *ix and w*nd*z security models
16:32 mncharity though what would the STDbot print?  match tree, ast, emitted code, or runtime output. :)
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16:33 TimToady there's a comment in STD right now
16:33 TimToady # XXX will this please work somehow ???
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16:33 TimToady it's on the .eval in:
16:33 TimToady token regex_mod_internal:sym<:i( )> { <sym> <regex_mod_arg> { $+insensitive = $<regex_mod_arg>.eval } }
16:34 TimToady so if that please works somehow, then STDbot should be able to print 42 :)
16:34 mncharity re XXX,  ok.  expectation management note to self: gimme5 is an exercise in DFA engine research.  yes? :)
16:34 mncharity ah, i see
16:34 TimToady primarily, yes
16:35 TimToady but to do that research I have to have a running version of STD
16:35 TimToady which happens to also be what you want for a Perl 6 parser eventually :)
16:35 mncharity but said research has the nice side effect of an official grammar getting actively banged on.
16:36 TimToady indeed, any attempt to converge on the grammar improves the grammar, one way or another, as long as there's feedback
16:37 TimToady I do find myself tweaking a few things to make it easier to gimme5 them over to p5 :)
16:37 mncharity re feedback, yes, part of the pipeline idea came from how to keep gimme5 fed with feedback and "other people using it"-ness.
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16:37 TimToady as long as what I start with is still officially p6, that seems okay
16:37 TimToady so like, turning @foo.join, which is hard to translate, into ~@join which is easy
16:38 TimToady 'cause it's not a real generic translator, just a transliterator for a known plaintext
16:38 mncharity re seems okay, oh yeah.  and I expect, once we're a bit more bootstrapped, the creep will then go in the other direction.
16:38 TimToady and it's very, very easy to break
16:39 mncharity ("since feature X works on all our backends Y, now the grammar can use X...")
16:39 TimToady *nod*
16:40 rakudo_svn r25935 | petdance++ | fix the "say <ok 4>"
16:40 TimToady but some nice things have fallen out semi-generically, like the ability to translate any "is context" into localized our vars
16:41 TimToady by the trick of declaring the our vars in main:: before the first package Perl;
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16:41 TimToady and the signature mangling has got pretty good generically too
16:42 mncharity ah, ok.  hmm.  perhaps an env:: rather than main::.
16:42 TimToady I still have to completely replace the p6 method heredoc though
16:42 TimToady it just doesn't translate well at all.
16:42 * Andy is happy to be writing his first Rakudo test.
16:43 TimToady mainly because it's doing too much internal pattern matching on strange data structures
16:43 mncharity Andy++ :)
16:43 * [particle] is happy at andy
16:43 Andy I might actually learn some syntax.
16:43 * spinclad hurls happiness
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16:44 TimToady is this a test inside or outside of t/spec?
16:44 mncharity re heredoc, there's a ruby version in std.rb, but it's never actually been run, so... salt required.
16:44 Andy outside of
16:44 TimToady have joy
16:45 TimToady mncharity: re heredoc, I rewrite it heavily when I had to translate to p5 because I realized the original approach was bogus
16:45 TimToady *rewrote
16:45 TimToady so it might have changed in STD since you last saw it
16:45 mncharity ok.  np.
16:46 TimToady it now just mangles the Match @<text>s instead of having an out-of-band list of texts
16:46 TimToady but the tricky thing is it has to allow for texts to be interrupted by interpolations in the middle of the line
16:46 TimToady and not mangle leading whitespace that's really in the middle of the line
16:46 TimToady so ^^ matching doesn't work
16:47 TimToady also, flattened out the @<more><text> things in Match so there's now just @<text>
16:48 TimToady using the newfangled ** <separator> syntax
16:48 mncharity looks like I have the current version of heredoc, though part of it is commented out as a todo.
16:48 TimToady if it prepends a "\n" to start with, that's the new version
16:49 TimToady since it does literal "\n" matching rather than relying on ^^
16:49 TimToady then we aren't fooled by gnostic interpolations into believing there's a line start after the interpolation
16:50 mncharity should the ^ (\t+) instead be ^^ (\t+) ?
16:51 lichtkind @seen fglock
16:51 lambdabot I haven't seen fglock.
16:52 TimToady should probably be matching literal \n
16:53 TimToady oh, wait, no
16:53 TimToady it's already the capture after a \n
16:53 TimToady so ^ really is beginning of string
16:54 TimToady $white is $0 from after \n
16:54 mncharity ooo, there's a bot I'd like to see.  a p6 glossary and pointer bot.  ...  explain: gnostic interpolations    mumble mumble SNN mumble
16:54 TimToady you'll note also the careful use of || rather than | matching so that it prefers $ws over \h*
16:55 TimToady otherwise \h* would be longest token, and almost never match $ws that we want to match
16:56 mncharity oy.  I've been avoiding noticing the differences between || and | ... an empowering innocence which probably has to come to an end rsn.
16:56 TimToady also, it's really important to do the s:g in one pass, rather than one s:g for $w, and another for \h*
16:56 spinclad gnostic: might refer to any of a-, mono-, bi-, or tritheistic interpolations in the canon, perhaps
16:57 spinclad as long as they think they *know*
16:57 TimToady mostly gnostic means "I know something you don't know, nyah, nyah, nyah, please join our cult and I'll tell you."
16:57 mncharity lol
16:58 TimToady I prefer a theology that doesn't keep secrets for insiders
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16:59 TimToady but people do find the nyah, nyah, nyah part rather attractive from the giving end, sigh
17:00 mncharity sigh indeed.  off to food i think.  i'll write up a strawman "meta-project" proposal after.
17:00 spinclad 'we have it from this volume hidden on a mountain from the beginning of time by the Great Seth, son of Adam...'
17:01 lichtkind TimToady: sorry for this rude question most of time i try to follow p6l but was there some significant changes in the lang in last 2 month?
17:01 TimToady many people will believe this in 10 years, so you can reap great rewards by getting in on the pyramid now
17:02 TimToady um, depends on what you mean by significant
17:02 spinclad if you start now you can even help build the pyramid!
17:03 TimToady if you look at the p6l archive and just look for spec changes, most of the (embedded, alas) checkin messages will tell you whether the changes are major or minor
17:03 * spinclad could use some blood sugar... off to eat & again
17:03 TimToady or just use svn log on the specs repo directly...
17:04 TimToady that's at https://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design/syn
17:04 lambdabot Title: Revision 14514: /doc/trunk/design/syn
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17:07 TimToady lichtkind: any particular reason for asking?
17:07 lichtkind TimToady: because i do a lot of writing about perl 6 and not always understand consequences of the logchanges
17:08 lichtkind TimToady: was'nt ther in 2006 announced a "major feature freeze" ?
17:10 TimToady not by me
17:10 TimToady I don't do freezes, only slushes
17:10 lichtkind but it was somewhere in official looking texts and sounded pretty serious :)
17:10 TimToady we approach stable asymptotically
17:10 lichtkind iknow :)
17:11 TimToady well, people want to say that the design is largely complete, and it is
17:11 lichtkind but you cant say that in forehand i understand
17:11 TimToady sometimes they overstate that
17:12 TimToady I have always said for several years now that the design of the language is now primarily influenced by feedback from implementors
17:12 TimToady but that doesn't mean we can't simplifiy or generalize when we see the opportunity
17:12 [particle] it's been influenced by teachers and authors, too :)
17:13 TimToady one major recent change is that sub foo ($a) no longer produces a named unary
17:13 TimToady you have to explicitly say prefix:<foo> to get that to happen
17:14 TimToady the syntax of ** quantification has changed recently to allow separators on the right
17:14 TimToady not too many changes in the operators, except to split out the precedence of ~ and x
17:15 TimToady so they're now looser than math ops
17:16 lichtkind TimToady:  please what means unary foo($a) ?
17:16 lichtkind TimToady: i recently returned from german perl workshop
17:16 TimToady well, foo($a) is just a function call because of the parens in postfix position, so that's not a unary call
17:16 lichtkind the real problem lays that the orga team which is real decent and intelligent
17:16 TimToady but if you say "foo $a" that's an operator
17:17 TimToady and the question is how to parse "foo $a, $b"
17:17 TimToady a true unary would parse that as "foo($a),$b"
17:17 lichtkind but the really believe that people who skoke about perl 6 in last years told every time soon its there so its sometimes difficult to comunicate
17:17 TimToady a listop makes it "foo($a,$b)"
17:18 lichtkind ah thanks
17:18 TimToady well, maybe some people misunderstand the Christmas joke and then get overexcited
17:19 TimToady and maybe some people just have a different idea of "soon"
17:19 lichtkind i think its more than that, i think people who are excited were not best comunicators
17:20 PerlJam TimToady: most people don't have the long view that some of us do.
17:20 lichtkind TimToady: so foo $a, $b now translates to foo ($a, $b) ?
17:20 TimToady and some of it was the rapid progess that pugs was making at the time, but that came to a screeching halt when audreyt got sick
17:21 lichtkind yes kp6 and v6 also seemed to slowd down
17:23 TimToady most of my work lately has been toward getting an executable version of STD.pm with correct semantic
17:23 TimToady s
17:23 TimToady STD.pm being kind of an executable spec for how the parser should work
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17:25 TimToady foo ($a, $b) is something else again
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17:26 TimToady you've passed ($a,$b) as the first arg to foo with that
17:26 TimToady foo $a, $b translates to foo($a,$b)
17:26 TimToady whitespace is significant in distinguishing postfix () from non-postfix ()
17:27 lichtkind TimToady:  yeah i should know since i written text about :) currently i writing on an update status of the overall project
17:27 TimToady but yes, given "sub foo ($)" p5 makes a unary operator
17:27 TimToady but p6 makes a list operator
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17:27 TimToady and you have to say "sub prefix:<foo> ($a)" to get the p5 behavior
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17:31 lichtkind TimToady: thanks i copy that into a file and understand it later fully :) no most of it i think i got
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17:32 lichtkind TimToady: something alse.. i maintain the p6doc module, currently i add further material to it like perl.com articles some doce from patrick, what you think should p6doc contain?
17:34 lichtkind its not that drastic since bible docs are evolving and also the officialp5 docs sontains some gut infos
17:34 lichtkind i just scream around if someone has further usefull material
17:36 TimToady I don't have a strong opinion about documentation, other than that there's a lot of obsolete documents that people refer to without realizing how old they are
17:36 Juerd Is that an opinion?
17:36 TimToady I prefer to have opionions that are also facts.  :)
17:36 TimToady *opinions
17:37 TimToady .oO(what's an opi-onion?)
17:38 TimToady maybe it's more of an opinion if you s/a lot of/far too many/
17:38 Juerd Ah, then I agree :)
17:41 lichtkind TimToady: i tkae care of that all things i included are mared as old or draft that are so
17:41 lichtkind marked
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17:54 rakudo_svn r25938 | petdance++ | "6.say"
17:54 rakudo_svn r25938 | petdance++ |  now works
17:55 lichtkind TimToady:  thanks for answers
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18:12 [particle] Andy: my method for converting spec tests goes something like this:
18:13 [particle] visit http://perlcabal.org/syn/, and pick a synopsis (eg. S12)
18:13 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
18:13 [particle] look for smartlinks (eg. - Hide t/oo/class/basic.t lines 13–38 (9 √, 0 ×) -)
18:14 [particle] open the file named there, and a file named appropriately for the spec tests (eg. t/spec/S12-classes/basic.t)
18:15 [particle] move the tests, svn add the file, svn ci.
18:15 [particle] if you don't have a commit bit, let me know and i'll fix it asap
18:16 TimToady there are no andys or petdances in the commiter list
18:18 TimToady also, consider adding your conversion recipe to t/spec/README
18:18 meppl joined #perl6
18:18 TimToady shower &
18:18 [particle] good ideas, all three.
18:20 TimToady we could probably semi-automate the movement of pugs specific :todo into fudge format
18:20 pugs_svnbot r19969 | ruoso++ | [smop] starting to write a lowlevel implementation of method that resolves to a C function call.
18:20 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19969
18:20 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19969 - Pugs - Trac
18:20 TimToady that can actually be done in-place since pugs runs fudge over all .t files
18:21 TimToady really &
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18:26 pugs_svnbot r19970 | particle++ | [spec] convert basic S12 class tests
18:26 pugs_svnbot r19971 | particle++ | [spec] convert pod to pod6
18:26 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19971
18:26 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19971 - Pugs - Trac
18:27 Andy I don't understand the spec test stuff, Particle.
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18:27 [particle] ok, want a commit bit anyway?
18:33 Andy yes.
18:33 Andy I'm not able to think about it.
18:33 Andy My question: Is there a common t/spec repo we're building?
18:34 [particle] yes. it's in the pugs repo.
18:34 [particle] just like STD.pm is in the pugs repo.
18:34 Andy I didn't see a t/spec
18:35 [particle] eventually, they may move somewhere more "official," but this way it's optimized for development. anyone can find and fix bugs in the spec
18:35 Andy oh wait, it's there.
18:35 Andy ok, and so "make spectest" should work under languages/perl6?
18:35 Andy I see.
18:36 Andy I hpoe that Audrey doesn't kick your ass for giving me commit access!
18:37 PerlJam Andy: I think we're almost to the point where the number of people who have commit access exceeds those that do not.  :-)
18:37 Andy PJ: I know, I kid.
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18:44 rakudo_svn r25939 | particle++ | [rakudo perl6doc]capture pod bodies, and process pod options
18:58 TimToady 6u
18:59 TimToady er, 6metoo
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19:12 pugs_svnbot r19972 | gwern++ | I found a nicer workaround for the cabal/hsc2hs problem. Mention it.
19:12 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19972
19:12 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19972 - Pugs - Trac
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19:43 rff_ hi
19:44 TimToady howdy doo
20:01 Coke joined #perl6
20:03 Coke I have a perl5 guy who is wondering if perl6 will have some way to say '[complicated expression] && return it for [some list]' # return the value of the expression the first time it is true. Is there such a beast? (or a better way to get a similar effect?)
20:05 TimToady well, first {expr}, @list is supposed to do that eventually
20:07 TimToady hmm, but that's returning the first element of the list, not the computed value
20:07 PerlJam "return the value the first time it's true"?
20:07 Coke TimToady: ah, perfect.
20:07 PerlJam that sounds like an until to me.
20:07 TimToady until is kinda imperative...
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20:09 TimToady but I guess you could do "first True, map {expr}, @list if you want the other semantics
20:09 TimToady first {.true} in the worst case
20:11 TimToady mncharity: I am rather amazed to discover that .matchify actually seems to be working more or less correctly without any tweakage from the pugs version (other than translation to p5)
20:12 Coke ~
20:26 mncharity re .matchify, ! :)
20:31 TimToady well, there are still a few extra levels in there, but the ->{prior} mechanism seems to be working
20:31 TimToady to get the integer node out of noun, I have to say
20:31 TimToady print Dump(@r[0]->{prior}{number}[0]{integer});
20:31 TimToady where it should just be $r{number}{integer}
20:32 TimToady that's mainly a side effect of using list context to hold alternatives and quantifier backtracks
20:32 TimToady er, $r->{number}{integer}
20:32 TimToady I forget this is Perl 5  :)
20:33 wolverian what's the -> in perl 6? ;)
20:33 TimToady lambda
20:33 TimToady -> $a, $b {...}
20:34 TimToady or do you mean the other way?
20:34 TimToady $r<number><integer>
20:34 wolverian just remarking on the @r[0]->; if you thought it was perl 6, what's the -> doing there?
20:34 TimToady or just $<number><integer> if $r is really $/
20:35 wolverian I need to come up with something constructive
20:35 wolverian in the near future, hopefully :/
20:36 wolverian (sorry :)
20:36 TimToady this is irc; remarking is perfectly okay  :)
20:38 wolverian it doesn't make me feel less of an ass :)
20:40 Juerd I haven't done much Perl 6 recently but I do find myself typing Perl 6 syntax when I'm working on Perl 5 code.
20:42 TimToady you think you've got problems--I go straight from STD.pm to STD5.pm and back, and I'm always in the wrong file typing the wrong code. :)
20:42 TimToady you'd think I'd be able to tell them apart by now... :)
20:43 Tene TimToady: perhaps you should jus tmake a p6->p5 compiler so that you can just type only p6 code.  ;)
20:43 TimToady um, great idea, why didn't I think of it earlier... :)
20:44 Tene I suspect that someday I'll stop finding myself so funny.
20:44 Tene That day is not today, though.
20:45 rindolf joined #perl6
20:46 Juerd TimToady: Haha
20:46 araujo joined #perl6
20:47 Juerd TimToady: Try alternating background colors in your editor. I did that when configuring two nearly identical new email servers and it worked well. I had a blue server and a red server, and used similarly colored labels on the actual machines.
20:47 Juerd It doesn't fix the problem, but it can reduce it
20:47 mncharity ooo, background colors, neat idea.
20:47 TimToady well, obviously I can't use red...
20:48 Juerd Maybe it should be obvious, but I don't see it... :)
20:48 TimToady mncharity has been working on the ruby version of STD
20:48 Juerd Oh, heh
20:48 wolverian quick, pick green..
20:49 TimToady green is my favorite color, but I like purple better...
20:49 [particle] grue and bleen make a good combination
20:50 Juerd In PC BASIC, 5 was purple, 6 was brownish :)
20:51 TimToady I'll bet they got their backslashes backwards as well...
20:51 Juerd In ANSCI, 5 is purple, 6 is teal
20:52 Juerd ANSCI? ANSI!
20:53 Juerd Well, of course it wasn't just BASIC that did this. It was 80x25 text thing that had this... Somewhere at &HB800 :)
20:53 TimToady 25!?!? real terminals only have 24 lines!!!
20:53 Juerd *PC* BASIC :)
20:54 Juerd In BASIC, the 25th line was the status line. It didn't participate in scrolling :)
20:54 TimToady I blame DEC
20:54 Juerd I don't know who to blame :)
20:54 [particle] D|I|G|I|T|A|L
20:55 TimToady if they'd just stuck and 72x20 when they had it so good with the VT05
20:55 Juerd I like that terminals are all more or less the same nowadays: xterm! :)
20:55 TimToady *at
20:55 TimToady course, the VT05 was uppercase only
20:55 TimToady and Japanese was right out
20:55 Juerd UPPERCASE IS NOT A PROBLEM AS LONG AS YOU HAVE UNICODE
20:56 TimToady I guess it could type U+263A just fine
20:56 TimToady and everyone knows what that means anyway
20:57 Juerd Racial unicode :)
20:57 Coke TimToady: it just takes so long to fire up character map.
20:57 Juerd Though it's not entirely accurate. On my terminal, the WHITE SMILING FACE is black, and the BLACK SMILING FACE is white. :)
20:57 [particle] how well does that work with EBCDIC
20:57 TimToady yes, only whites are allowed to frown
20:58 Juerd TimToady: That's blacks on my white-on-black terminals :)
20:58 TimToady Juerd: mine too
20:58 TimToady which is why purple would work better than green--closer to black
20:58 Juerd But then, the BLACK HEART SUIT is white too.
20:58 TimToady no!?!
20:58 TimToady I detect a conspiracy
20:58 Juerd
20:59 TimToady it's really confusing to read the irc logs with the colors reversed from what they should be :)
20:59 Juerd Given the de factor standard for four color playing cards, green is ♣
20:59 wolverian FILLED would make more sense..
21:00 PerlJam Juerd: clover
21:00 Juerd PerlJam: Clubs
21:00 PerlJam well, when it's green it's a clover or a shamrock
21:01 Juerd And diamonds are blue. ♦
21:01 Juerd Hearts are red, spades are black.
21:02 TimToady well, everyone's gonna be running white-on-black screens when we have active OLED displays that run twice as long as black-on-white
21:03 wolverian OLED++
21:03 TimToady unless they can find a way to make the dark pixels use more power than the light ones... ;)
21:05 TimToady maybe light up our screens indirectly with burning US embassies...
21:05 TimToady sigh
21:06 PerlJam future displays will stimulate rods and cones directly.  No need for a "screen"
21:07 TimToady will still take more power for the light pixels :)
21:08 [particle] we'll be using cheap, renewable, nuculur power by then
21:08 TimToady maybe we should rename smop to kosovo, then go burn down the microsoft embassy in parrotland
21:09 PerlJam [particle]: portable nuclear power plants like from Asimov's Foundation series.
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21:43 mncharity lol # /me backlogs
21:52 mncharity My impression is kp6's ast is the most recent and best attempt at designing a Right Thing ast/il.  anyone disagree?  any interesting runner-ups worth looking at?
21:53 [particle] mncharity: i think parrot's ast is at least equally good, but i'm biased
21:54 [particle] mncharity: http://www.parrotcode.org/docs/pdd/pdd26_ast.html
21:54 lambdabot Title: Parrot Abstract Syntax Tree - parrotcode
21:54 * mncharity looks...
21:54 mncharity thx !:)
21:56 wknight-away joined #perl6
21:56 * [particle] is currently working on a yaml dump format and dumper for parrot's ast
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21:58 mncharity kp6 ast: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6​-KindaPerl6/src/KindaPerl6/Ast.pm
21:58 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/2f66ak
21:58 mncharity re working on a yaml dump format, ooo...
21:59 mncharity note http://www.kuwata-lab.com/kwalify/
21:59 lambdabot Title: Kwalify: schema validator and data binding for YAML/JSON
21:59 [particle] it's not incredibly important the the ASTs be the same between implementations, but it is important for them to be quickly and easily converted
22:01 [particle] re kwalify: thanks!
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22:07 pugs_svnbot r19973 | lwall++ | [Cursor5] .matchify produces a better behaved Match object
22:07 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19973
22:07 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19973 - Pugs - Trac
22:12 TimToady this now works:
22:12 TimToady my $r = Perl->new(orig => '42')->noun([]); print Dump($r->{value}{number}{integer});
22:13 TimToady and prints a yaml AST(ish)
22:13 TimToady now we just have to get the rest of it to work :)
22:14 mncharity ! :)
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22:31 mncharity oky.  here's where i'd really like a whiteboard.  I don't suppose anyone is in the boston area and would like to get together in the next couple of days to talk through "a project architecture for the next few weeks"?
22:32 mncharity but basically:
22:33 TimToady obra lives near boston
22:33 obra mncharity: I'm happy to _listen_ if that would help
22:33 obra And comment.
22:34 obra but I can't commit to being a useful design contributor ;)
22:34 obra also, I have large whiteboards
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22:44 mncharity obra: that would be helpful.  i find simply discussing and answering questions often yields new insights and better design.
22:44 obra ok.
22:45 obra could do tomorrow from 6-7 if that's good for you
22:46 mncharity that would be great.  see you at 6 (pm I assume?  am would be fine too).
22:48 obra pm is better for me ;)
22:48 obra wanna pop by the bps office?
22:48 mncharity ok.  yes.  see you 6 pm at bps.
22:49 obra lovely
22:49 * obra has no idea if there's an easy way to use this nice macbook to broadcast the whiteboard and discussion in the room but we could try if other folks wanna
22:52 mncharity basic idea is:  a kp6/ast-like yaml format.  kwalify-ed.  with a p5 wrapper lib.  (also rb and p6 - all metaprogrammed from p5 - they are basically just class names and vars).
22:53 mncharity a lot like kp6 -Cast, and in fact there would be a  kp6 -Cast | kp6ast-to-kp6ast-like-yaml > foo.yaml, but the key difference is
22:53 mncharity the backends can be written in p5 (or rb:),  rather than in the kp6 subset-dialect of p6.  so development is easy, and they run fast.
22:55 obra talked to fglock about this?
22:56 mncharity two p5 backends are of particular interest - a very simple transliterator - which simply converts from p6 syntax to p5 syntax, and doesn't try to emulate p6 semantics.  you simply have to avoid writing p6 things which will be broken by that process.  it's a way to write in p6, instead of p5/rb/whatever, while having a zero-performance hit.  so backends can
22:56 mncharity start being written in p6 now, rather than needing to be mostly in native language.
22:57 mncharity re fglock, no, hasn't been around, and the current form of the argument is just gelling now.
22:57 obra nod
22:58 mncharity the other p5 backend is the current effort.  hmm... there might be a third, but later on that.
22:59 mncharity the...  for now "yail", yet-another-intermediate-language, also provides a target for three, maybe four other pipes.
23:00 mncharity redsix, STD5, and STD_red (as backup to STD5).  maybe pugs.
23:02 mncharity STD5 flow is   STD5 .matchify -> match tree (dump as yaml... simply because I'd find it easier to cleanly massage in ruby than in p5) ->  gast (more in a moment) -> yail.
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23:10 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, smop: etc.) || We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
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23:12 mncharity development path might be:  the kp6 -Cast -> yail  postprocessor, plus yail dtd and lib and unit tests.  and the simple yail to bare p5.  that get's yail designed, implemented, tested.  folks interested in doing backends, such as already have done kp6 backends, can then bang on it.
23:12 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
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23:13 mncharity a person day or three, unless kp6 -Cast turns out to have problems.
23:15 mncharity then STD5 .matchify to gast, and gast itself, but it a more exploratory mode.  eg, get 42 working through gast to yail and thus p5, before worrying to hard about the rest of gast and gast->yail conversion.
23:15 kolibrie joined #perl6
23:16 mncharity do the same for the bit of STD_red which is working.
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23:16 mncharity maybe.
23:18 mncharity then redsix to gast, hopefully making redsix sort of a kp6 alternative (trading kp6's bootstrap concept for better performance).
23:18 tewk joined #perl6
23:19 mncharity i believe, with some uncertainty, that last bit will let us start writing p5-style p6, which gets compiled to real bare p5.
23:19 silug_ joined #perl6
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23:20 mncharity so folks writing backends can, for the most part, work in p6.
23:20 kanru joined #perl6
23:20 mncharity and folks creating runtimes.
23:22 mncharity eg, i could take the p5 yet-another-regex-engine, which does p6 rx on top of a p5 re, translate it into p5-like p6, and then any platform with a pcre library would have p6 rx.  as well as being bootstrap.
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23:27 mncharity i think those are all the pieces.  it's sortof generalizing the observation that STD5 is easier than STD/pugs.  and exposing yail so
23:28 mncharity 'permitting' p5/rb use doesn't preclude p6/other use.
23:28 pbuetow joined #perl6
23:29 mncharity gets us out of "the only way to use pugs's parser is to write in haskell in pugs", "kp6's in kp6 in kp6", and "redsix in ruby in redsix".
23:30 ruz joined #perl6
23:30 mncharity <handwaving ends>
23:30 mncharity hah
23:30 mncharity thoughts?
23:30 mncharity questions?
23:32 mncharity eep.  that was 40 min. :/  in retrospect, perhaps writing it up and nopasting it would have been better.(?)
23:33 mncharity 60 min.
23:35 [particle1 email is a much better medium for monologues
23:35 mncharity hadn't envisioned it as a monologue :)
23:39 [particle] :)
23:42 Juerd Hi. Who could send me a test email? #####@juerd.nl - thanks!
23:43 wolverian sure
23:43 Juerd Thanks
23:43 wolverian you can yell at me again for misconfiguring my mta :)
23:43 Juerd Haha :)
23:44 Juerd I'll yell at my own MTA configuration first :)
23:44 wolverian oh, my network is having problems
23:44 wolverian hmm.
23:44 wolverian it might have left now
23:44 [particle] i sent one
23:44 Juerd So far, greylisting seems to work well
23:44 wolverian yes, it did.
23:44 wolverian tell me if it reaches you -- I'm kind of curious too
23:44 wolverian this is a brand new laptop :)
23:44 wolverian (mutt + msmtp)
23:45 Juerd I got it :)
23:45 * Juerd uses his feather user administration for nick <-> realname mapping :)
23:46 wolverian I also have it in my /whois
23:46 * wolverian is nice that way
23:50 mncharity not a single comment or question?  ^.^
23:53 mncharity /me listens to 5.10 make test go by, on an unshielded audio wire which picks up disk and display activity... very neat.  a gnome "ambient system sound" utility.
23:56 wolverian whoa, that's cool
23:56 wolverian I want it too :)
23:56 meppl good night
23:56 mncharity any thoughts on a name for the kp6 ast -like ast...
23:56 mncharity g'night meppl
23:57 meppl ;)
23:57 mncharity ... package.   yail.  nail.  fail.  ...
23:58 [particle] kast

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