Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-02-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:32 mncharity [particle]: a yaml dump of   languages/perl6/perl6 --target=past  would be great.  Curious that --target=past ignores -e.
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00:33 pmichaud (--target=past ignores -e)   I noticed that also yesterday.  Probably deserves a ticket to rakudobug@perl.org
00:37 Juerd pmichaud: Hi. I see you're a speaker at fosdem tomor... eh, in little over 12 hours :)
00:37 Juerd pmichaud: Do you know if there's any Perl community gettogether?
00:45 Juerd http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=38508&cid=60912  # acme suggested meeting too, but without location and time
00:45 lambdabot Title: FOSDEM
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00:49 pmichaud I'm not aware of a perl community get together... I probably should've tried to organize one.  :-|
00:50 pmichaud I'm pretty busy saturday (tomorrow), but so far sunday seems open
00:50 mncharity re 'Probably deserves a ticket to rakudobug@perl.org', sent.
00:50 pmichaud mncharity++  # thanks
00:51 pmichaud Juerd: I've asked others, but can ask you also -- any particular points to be sure to hit/avoid about Perl 6 in tomorrow's talk?
00:53 Juerd pmichaud: That people shouldn't compare software based on version numbers.
00:53 Juerd (hit)
00:54 Juerd Especially since Perl 6 and PHP 6 are scheduled so competatively
00:54 Juerd PHP 6 will probably be released long before Perl 6, but Perl 6 is an almost new language.
00:55 pmichaud really?  When is PHP 6 coming out?
00:57 Juerd Probably before it's finished ;)
00:57 Juerd But probably also before christmas
01:00 Juerd Didn't you know that the PHP 6 talk was scheduled directly after yours?
01:00 Juerd In the same room even
01:00 pmichaud yes, I did know that
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01:00 pmichaud but I hadn't linked "Perl 6" and "PHP 6" in my mind.  You're correct that many audience members might.
01:01 pmichaud (I had already planned to attend the PHP 6 talk, since I have a few PHP projects)
01:01 Juerd Ah. It is my experience that many people think version numbers of certain kinds of software are almost the same because it's some kind of competative race.
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01:02 Juerd Internet Explorer and Netscape, versions 3..5 had the same problem. 6 less so.
01:02 Juerd Some say that PHP released 5, which isn't really that big a difference since 4, to get in line with Perl. It's probably false, but still there's people who think this.
01:03 pmichaud well, I know that I did see similar things with Linux releases for a while (e.g., between RedHat and SUSE)
01:03 Juerd The PHP 6 talk is "Unicoding with PHP 6" by the way.
01:04 Juerd But on the printed schedule it's just titled "PHP 6"
01:04 pmichaud so yes, I know what you're talking about.  I'll see if I can gently make the disconnection in my talk.  But my talk already focuses on Perl 6 being an altogether new language in many ways
01:04 Juerd Ah, that's great in any case :)
01:04 Juerd 'cause That appeals to both Perl lovers and Perl haters :)
01:05 Juerd Many Perl users like learning a new powerful language, especially if it is "Perlish"
01:05 pmichaud a little over half of the talk is "what is Perl 6, why it is great", the remaining is "how are we implementing it (in Parrot)"
01:06 Juerd And Perl-haters will see that many of their complaints, except noise about line noise, is gone :)
01:06 pmichaud yes, I already cover the sigil changes
01:06 Juerd I think that that is a good format for this audience
01:06 pmichaud I gave a similar talk to this one a few months ago, and it ran 90 minutes.  So I have to figure out how to get down to under 45.  :-)
01:06 pmichaud but I'll do it.  :-)
01:06 Juerd Are you going to mention just Rakudo, or the multiple implementations?
01:07 pmichaud definitely mention the multiple implementations
01:07 Juerd Or is this too sensitive a subject to mention on IRC :D
01:07 pmichaud I always mention that there are multiple Perl 6 efforts
01:07 * Juerd got a few off-list responses to his "focus on a single one for now" suggestion
01:07 pmichaud the rakudo implementation will be interesting because it's using the parrot compiler toolkit (which is a significant talk in its own right) and because it really is written using Perl 6
01:08 Juerd I forgot to mention that that statement was based on dollar based development.
01:08 pmichaud yes, but in many days dollars and effort are interchangable
01:08 pmichaud personally, I'm very glad we have multiple efforts taking place.  I also don't see it as zero-sum
01:09 Juerd I am also glad we have multiple simultaneous approaches
01:09 Juerd However, for funding "Perl 6" I'd say it's best to pick one at a time.
01:09 pmichaud my experience is that the multiple efforts are making it easier for all to progress.  I think that's actually necessary in a project as ambitious as Perl 6
01:09 Juerd It appears not many people share that view.
01:10 pmichaud well, much of the funding that has been available thus far has been targeted
01:10 pmichaud (to parrot).  That's not a function of TPF or the grants committee, but rather the organizations contributing the funding
01:10 SamB well it's definately better then having all the effort spent in barking up the wrong tree, and possibly better than leaving some people who'd otherwise contribute out since they can't find anything to work on...
01:10 Juerd The more transparent the ambition (as in "we've never done it before, and don't really know if it'll work the way we want it to") is to investors, the fewer bucks they'll spend, I think. It's a gut feeling.
01:11 pmichaud if other organizations want to contribute to other efforts, that's perfectly okay also.
01:11 * SamB doesn't think he'd ever consider giving money to something with that many opcodes...
01:11 pmichaud and by "other organizations"  I mean other organizations that want to contribute to other implementations via TPF
01:12 Juerd pmichaud: That effectively forces sponsors to dive into Perl 6 culture, which raises the bar a lot.
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01:12 pmichaud Juerd: right.  The organizations that have made substantial donations, such as NLNET and Mozilla, dove into the culture enough to see that the Parrot effort was where they wanted to focus their efforts
01:13 pmichaud I don't know what is happening to the "non-targeted" funds that TPF grants may have available.
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01:13 Juerd pmichaud: Those organizations have their roots in open development
01:13 Juerd It's easier for them.
01:13 pmichaud correct
01:14 pmichaud if people look at those grants and say "TPF is only supporting Parrot", that's a mistake.
01:14 pmichaud TPF is making it possible for those other organizations to support Parrot.
01:14 pmichaud or at least making it easier.
01:15 Juerd I know
01:15 Juerd And I'm not objecting
01:16 Juerd I'm looking at it in the context of Conrad's thread starting mail
01:16 Juerd Which was about raising funds for Perl 6, not about TPF or past grants.
01:17 Juerd And I do think that it's easier to ask corporations for their money to fund a product, rather than something resembling a research project.
01:17 pmichaud yes, it is.
01:17 Juerd Apart from that, I agree wholeheartedly that having multiple implementations is good, and that TPF should be able to fund any and all of them.
01:18 pmichaud right -- that's really up to the grants committee.
01:18 Juerd I had no idea that there was still 35k left
01:18 avar [particle]: re svn, no, a .git:) I keep it at git.nix.is
01:18 avar [particle]: git-clone git://git.nix.is/avar/pm/re-engine-TRE
01:19 Juerd And to be honest I'm a bit surprised, since I've seen people complain "We're unpaid volunteers, so duh, it'll take a while" while the "unpaid" part turns out to be by choice...
01:20 Juerd I'm not suggesting that everybody should start taking money, but I am under the impression that several people who would like to spend more time on hacking on Perl 6, had no idea that their work had a chance of getting funded.
01:20 pmichaud well, the NLNet funds aren't totally unencumbered -- they're restricted to specific milestones
01:20 Juerd (Which would not make being unpaid a choice - it would make it a result of ignorance)
01:20 pmichaud so we can't just say "here's $x to go work on whatever you think needs working on"
01:20 Juerd Ah.
01:21 Juerd Unrenegotiable?
01:21 pmichaud it was renegotiated once... but there are some broad limits to what the funds are intended to cover, yes
01:21 Juerd No, not "whatever you think", but wouldn't it be useful if people could at least suggest alternative milestones?
01:21 Juerd Of course, bureaucracy might kill the process. I have no idea how to fix that.
01:22 Juerd Anyway, I should go home and get some sleep before I drive to Brussels tomorr... today.
01:22 pmichaud I should finish my presentation slides.  :-)
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01:24 Juerd Good luck :)
01:24 pmichaud thanks.  :-)
01:25 pmichaud at least I have a head start on this one.  Many times I only have 3-4 hours to finish.
01:25 pmichaud right now I have about 7 or 8.
01:25 pmichaud (and a head start on the slides from my previous presentation, also :-)
01:34 meppl good night
01:49 mncharity [particle]: spinclad: ok, yes, ../../parrot perl6.pbc --target=past should definitely be included as a parser source.  especially once it gets a yaml output form - I'm unclear on whether there is p5 or other code to pick up the existing output.
01:52 TimToady mncharity: how'd the meet with obra go?
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02:05 pugs_svnbot r19982 | lwall++ | remove :: from filenames for windersboxen
02:05 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19982
02:05 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19982 - Pugs - Trac
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02:22 csharp download links don't work ~ http://www.pugscode.org/
02:22 lambdabot Title: Pugs - pugscode
02:24 csharp is it just me?
02:27 pugs_svnbot r19983 | lwall++ | [gimme5] default to not failing over if lexer fails (for now)
02:27 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19983
02:27 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19983 - Pugs - Trac
02:31 TimToady doesn't work, just pull it from svn to get the bleeding edge (which requires GHC 6.8.1 I think at the moment)
02:31 csharp yeah, i just found the page for svn co (http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?download_pugs)
02:31 lambdabot Title: Download Pugs / Perl 6
02:35 mncharity TimToady: re meet, useful.  () he thought getting us towards a documented stable ast which people could target was the main potential contribution.  () i found it interesting how several things i've come to think of as obvious, even in extended conversation with someone familiar with the area, proved not so.  () got me over threshold to revisit parrot.
02:38 mncharity () it was interesting the difficulty of characterizing what i've come to view as the critical importance of a fast edit-test cycle.  given a _work_ p6 snatched from the future, however slow, we would be all set.  but given existing buggy and incomplete implementations, slow is deadly.
02:38 mncharity * _working_
02:39 mncharity there were some others... hmm...
02:41 mncharity () oh, very interesting hearing of views from the broader p6, and p5 viewing p6, communities.  which i almost never see.
02:48 mncharity () he found... non-obvious?... my perspective that the p6 critical path has been on hold for several years (modulo various projects contributing to language spec evolution), since pugs's first summer, blocked by not having a parser willing to provide a parse tree which includes oo info.  thus killing backend and prelude development, and thus any large-scale use of p6.
02:52 mncharity highlights.
02:57 mncharity looking at parrot's language/perl6, some of the choices are interesting.  eg, there's support for junctions and (reportedly - blog) for roles, but not for Array's.
02:59 mncharity s/choices/emphasis/.  "bottom up"-ish.
02:59 mncharity perhaps.
03:04 TimToady back from dinner
03:04 TimToady thanks
03:15 pugs_svnbot r19984 | lwall++ | change bad download link in at least one spot...
03:15 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19984
03:15 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19984 - Pugs - Trac
03:21 pugs_svnbot r19985 | putter++ | [kp6] added -C ast-yaml option.
03:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19985
03:21 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19985 - Pugs - Trac
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04:48 pugs_svnbot r19986 | putter++ | [kp6] Changed -C ast-yaml from YAML::Syck to YAML::XS.
04:48 pugs_svnbot r19987 | lwall++ | [gimme5] much cleanup of trace output
04:48 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19987
04:48 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19987 - Pugs - Trac
04:56 TimToady mncharity: what is the difference between YAML::Syck and YAML::XS?
05:00 mncharity [particle]: apropos kwalify, regrettably it doesn't deal with tags (nor permit enum's of maps_.  so, it doesn't seem to help us.  so... I'm thinking of metaprogramming something which loads the yaml and grovels over the resulting objects. :/  seems less painful than going the xml route.
05:12 mncharity TimToady: re Syck vs XS... just a past end-of-day mistake.  jumping at unicode bug shaddows.  reverting.
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05:21 pugs_svnbot r19988 | putter++ | [kp6] revert r19986.  Syck seems vaguely preferable to libyaml/XS on both perl and ruby.  But it's late, so this may get revisited, again.
05:21 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19988
05:21 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19988 - Pugs - Trac
05:22 mncharity /me nodding off.  good night all &
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05:27 TimToady @tell mncharity yes, it would be very nice if any fast form of yaml had its unicode act together...
05:27 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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07:13 pugs_svnbot r19989 | lwall++ | [gimme5] getting --> coercions to add in prec and assoc to %thisop
07:13 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19989
07:13 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19989 - Pugs - Trac
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09:40 Tene http://pleasedieinafire.net/~tene/grammar.png -- 20%
09:41 pmichaud Tene: that's for rakudo?
09:42 Tene Yeah.
09:42 Tene 20% of rakudo's grammar.pm
09:42 pmichaud ah
09:42 pmichaud <afterws> isn't called?  or just isn't linked yet?
09:42 Tene nothing up to that point calls it.
09:43 pmichaud actually, an interesting grammar to graph might be NQP's grammar :-)
09:43 pmichaud it's a bit smaller
09:44 pmichaud still, this is quite cool
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09:45 pugs_svnbot r19990 | lwall++ | [gimme5] EXPR more stable, much debugging of endsym logic
09:45 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19990
09:45 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19990 - Pugs - Trac
09:46 TimToady what's a routine_declatorot?  :)
09:46 Tene A typo, of course.
09:46 pmichaud it's the official name for bit decay
09:47 pmichaud bit decay that occurs regularly, that is
09:48 Tene 33% done
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10:05 Tene There, done.
10:05 Tene the source is http://pleasedieinafire.net/~tene/grammar.src
10:06 Tene compile with: dot grammar.src -Tpng -o grammar.png
10:08 pmichaud unfortunately, <TOP> isn't at the top.
10:09 Tene Heh.
10:09 Tene Hmm, wonder if i can fix that.
10:09 pmichaud internally, optable calls <term>
10:12 Tene re-rendered with optable -> term
10:12 Tene And that put TOP at the top.
10:14 pmichaud 'quote_expression' calls 'quote_concat'
10:14 pmichaud 'quote_concat' calls 'quote_term'
10:15 pmichaud 'quote_term' calls 'variable'
10:15 pmichaud and 'quote_literal'
10:16 pmichaud (those are all in src/parser/quote_expression.pir, written as PIR instead of regexes
10:16 Tene updated
10:16 Tene Now TOP is in the middle of the top.  Entertaining.
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11:04 pugs_svnbot r19991 | lwall++ | [gimme5] getting endsym info up to where autolexer can see it
11:04 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19991
11:04 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19991 - Pugs - Trac
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11:51 rakudo_svn r26016 | paultcochrane++ | [rakudo] Updating svn properties appropriately so the file_metadata test runs
11:51 rakudo_svn r26016 | paultcochrane++ | correctly for svk working copies.
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14:05 Juerd pmichaud: Great talk :)
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16:33 mncharity does Moose provide multi-methods?  I've been groveling over the docs and do see them.  Is there anything now available aside from Damian's very old Class-Multimethods, and Lukes "one global namespace" Class-Multimethods-Pure?
16:33 mncharity *don't
16:51 * SamB considers making a stupid joke about MOOSE being a convenient way to edit MOO objects
16:57 mncharity Moo Software Engineering?
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17:08 TimToady I don't believe anyone has actually implemented the currently specced multi dispatch
17:09 TimToady because MO is necessary but not sufficient
17:10 TimToady multiple dispatch tends to live outside the purview of any one type
17:11 TimToady though of course the Code types have to deal with it on various levels
17:12 TimToady it's another one of those areas that everyone else has been avoiding thinking about, like longest-token matchers :)
17:13 TimToady so I wouldn't be surprised if that was something I had to prototype after STD is "done"
17:14 TimToady but by all means, feel free to work on it! :D
17:20 mncharity :P   /me dodges the concept by clarifying that it was just a normal "I want to do X in p5.  The RightThing approach is multiple dispatch.  Before I decide on which not-RightThing to use instead... time has passed... I don't suppose there's a chance that...".
17:21 mncharity though ended up with a not-RightThing of single dispatch on typename suffix, which has the nice property that
17:22 mncharity it permits ducktyped dispatch on ast nodes from different sources... ah bleep... it's all kludge.
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18:12 mncharity [particle]: re rakudo ast yaml, any idea when it might be available?
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20:31 pugs_svnbot r19992 | lwall++ | [STD] rewrite panic as normal method because it's hard to <commit>
20:31 pugs_svnbot r19992 | lwall++ | [gimme5] properly recognize (and ignore <rw> on context)
20:31 pugs_svnbot r19992 | lwall++ | [Cursor5] double-quoted string now pulls out fixed prefix, if any
20:31 pugs_svnbot r19992 | lwall++ | [Cursor5] only non-atoms in quantification context need extra grouping
20:31 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19992
20:31 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19992 - Pugs - Trac
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22:01 pugs_svnbot r19993 | lwall++ | [gimme5] various metachar and yaml vs. unicode issues
22:01 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19993
22:02 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19993 - Pugs - Trac
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