Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-02-24

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:43 garo I went to the talk at fosdem about perl6 a couple of hours ago and i just have to say 2 words: WOW, THANKS !!!
00:45 Juerd What impresses you most?
00:45 Juerd There's so much neat stuff.
00:46 garo the amount of new stuff impressed me the most, it makes perl almost another language
00:49 TimToady You're welcome!
00:50 garo Aren't you afraid that most people will miss a big a part of all the new features ? You guys experience all the changes gradually, but most users will make the step to perl 6 in very short amount of time.
00:50 TimToady the idea is for people to discover them as they go along when they need them
00:50 TimToady much like people don't discover closures in Perl 5 until they need them
00:51 TimToady if the initial experience is pretty much the same, people will not have too much future shock
00:51 Juerd garo: Well, that will go as with every new language that you learn.
00:52 Juerd garo: In many ways, Perl 6 really is a new language. It certianly looks like Perl though :)
00:52 TimToady in other words, we make it easy to write more-or-less correct cargo cult code, which usually works even if the user doesn't really know everything that's going on underneath
00:53 TimToady in that sense it is still very like Perl 5
00:53 garo I'm a bit afraid that it's going to be like my first experience with regexps. I programmed in C, never heard of the concept of regexps, so never missed it. But now that i know it, i couldn't live without it
00:54 TimToady on the other end, we're trying very hard to make Perl 6 a language that doesn't run out of gas just when you need it to go another mile down the road
00:55 TimToady basically, we've set ourselves almost impossible design goals, and are coming very close to implementing them. :)
00:55 garo :)
00:56 TimToady and we've always felt (well, since 2000) that Perl culture was strong enough to take the shock.
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00:57 TimToady but that's partly because we've stretched it all out like a bungee cord.
00:59 TimToady everyone can take as much time as they like to get used to it, because we're not shutting down Perl 5
00:59 Juerd garo: I alreday have a hard time living without Perl 6, and I haven't even used it much yet!
01:00 Juerd (What's with my fingers swapping letters?)
01:00 TimToady whoops, gotta drive to San Francisco now...
01:00 Juerd TimToady: Drive safely!
01:00 Juerd TimToady: Et bon voyage
01:00 TimToady my kid left his wallet at the con :(
01:00 TimToady later &
01:01 TimToady give garo a commit bit if desired
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01:12 Limbic_Region garo - do you want a commitbit ?
01:28 meppl good night
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06:01 pugs_svnbot r19994 | lwall++ | ordered disjunctions were relying on p6 meaning of (...)||
06:01 pugs_svnbot r19994 | lwall++ | missing some grouping logic for foreign rules
06:01 pugs_svnbot r19994 | lwall++ | various buglets
06:01 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19994
06:01 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19994 - Pugs - Trac
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09:51 rakudo_svn r26038 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] First cut of smart-match for Lists; doesn't respect Whatever and so forth yet, or differences between various list types.
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13:28 mncharity What would be a good one-line summary of the focus of current rakudo development?
13:32 pmichaud functionality.
13:33 pmichaud personally, I'm focused on getting the basic features of Perl (6) to work
13:37 ruoso pmichaud, that being?
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13:37 pmichaud lists, hashes, subroutines -- the basic things that one would need for writing a Perl program
13:39 ruoso hmmm... I see...
13:39 ruoso it's just that the "basic things" may be very diverse ;)
13:39 ruoso depending on the eye
13:39 pmichaud correct
13:40 pmichaud Most Perl (5 or 6) programmers would expect hashes and lists to be available when writing a Perl program, so I think of those as being basic
13:41 pmichaud multimethod dispatch is somewhat unique to Perl 6, so it's not "basic"
13:41 pmichaud regexes are basic, named rules and grammars aren't basic
13:41 pmichaud etc.
13:41 ruoso otoh, depending on the area of work, the basic might be perl 6 oo features...
13:41 ruoso I don't mean to say you're wrong at all
13:41 pmichaud i.e., my focus is to get enough of rakudo working that Perl (5) programmers can start playing with it and have most of the things they're used to working
13:42 ruoso ah... that's a pretty more defined focus ;)
13:42 pmichaud yes, oo can also be considered "basic" from a "what do I need next to build Perl 6" perspective
13:43 pmichaud thus rakudo has enough oo to get started
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15:06 mncharity re "get enough of rakudo working that Perl (5) programmers can start playing with it and have most of the things they're used to working", thanks!  /me finishing up a really long README.
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16:16 mncharity ruoso: I have to leave, but later,
16:16 pugs_svnbot r19995 | putter++ | [misc/winter_jig] Initial checkin.  README; STATUS; kp6 ast tools; start of a kp6 ast to bare p5 backend.
16:16 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19995
16:16 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19995 - Pugs - Trac
16:17 mncharity ruoso: Please tell me of your smop-ish needs for ast supporting infrastructure.  We aim to provide.
16:21 mncharity hmm, really need something between big-picture README and 'insufficient discussion of objectives and approach' low-level STATUS tasks.  ah, well.  todo.
16:23 mncharity Perl 6 development has a cultural tradition of avoiding conflict.  "At least he's doing something.  I won't criticize or question, because that might chase him away, and after all, he may in future do something I *don't* think is completely misguided".  We've had years of that.
16:24 mncharity I'd like to change my own feedback setting to 'ruby community like' friendly but blunt.  If you thing something is a mistake, say so.  Silence will be taken as quiet but wholehearted agreement. ;)
16:24 mncharity bbl (late) &
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16:46 pugs_svnbot r19996 | putter++ | [misc/winter_jig] Added a Talk file for Wikipedia-like very-low-barrier-to-entry discussion.  Noted some other project management needs.
16:46 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19996
16:46 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19996 - Pugs - Trac
16:54 mncharity sigh.  OPLC doesn't have a usable collaborative code repository like pugs does; pugs doesn't have a usable wiki (mediawiki) like OLPC does.   maze of twisty little passages.  /me ->door
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16:59 * Tene tries to remember who he found in detroit to harass.
17:00 cmarcelo mncharity: well, there is the wiki in Trac http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki
17:00 lambdabot Title: Pugs - Trac
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23:14 alester pmichaud++ http://perlbuzz.com/2008/02/patrick-michaud-spreads-the-word-at-fosdem.html
23:14 lambdabot Title: Patrick Michaud spreads the word at FOSDEM - Perl Buzz, http://tinyurl.com/2fshds
23:18 pugs_svnbot r19997 | lwall++ | missing some array methods
23:18 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19997
23:18 lambdabot Title: Changeset 19997 - Pugs - Trac
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23:39 mncharity cmarcelo: re dev.pugscode.org/wiki , yeah, and http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi .  but after using mediawiki a lot, the lack of a Talk page associated with each content page, really hits as a major loss.  It's like asking someone for comments on a paper, but requiring them to wordsmith their comments, and blend them into the article people are reading.
23:39 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 / Perl 6
23:40 mncharity rather than scribbling in the margins, sending you an email, or telling you verbally.  a *much* higher barrier to entry.  and a practically absolute barrier to several useful forms of collaboration on the document.
23:43 mncharity eg, I went to add something to the pf.org wiki, but was unsure of why the author was doing something in what seemed a suboptimal way.  instead of being able to leave a note in Talk describing the intent/question/issue, the only choices were smash the author's existing content while not understanding it, or greatly uglyify the document by inlining commentary and questions.
23:45 mncharity one could certainly have Talk pages on a trac wiki.  But the absence of a tiny bit of "make it easy to see if a Talk doc exists, and to link to it without hand maintaining a link", and of the social convention, makes it not happen.
23:46 meppl good night
23:46 FurnaceBoy Trac tickets won't cut it?
23:46 FurnaceBoy then u can have a semblance of conversation
23:46 mncharity g'night meppl.
23:46 meppl ;)
23:52 mncharity FurnaceBoy: I started to say "kidding, yes?", but there are indeed similarities.  but it's sort of like comparing those comment hacks at the bottom of blogs, with using Talk on wikipedia.  kind of similar, but the differences make for a different style of use.  trac ticket comment chains are like using email.  "regards your third point, mumble, well, frotz".
23:53 FurnaceBoy or bugzilla issues.
23:53 FurnaceBoy not perfect, granted.
23:53 FurnaceBoy but i never used mediawiki talk ... prefer TWiki, myself.
23:53 FurnaceBoy we use Trac + Jabber
23:53 cmarcelo mncharity: I see, I like the Talk pages idea too. easy solution would be adding them as needed (you add a Talk link for the page and put the talk there). people will learn the convention after you use it sometimes..
23:54 cmarcelo or, you could contact pf.org/perl6 people to migrate to a different wiki... ;-)
23:55 mncharity cmarcelo: yeah, the technical side is basically a one line hack.  "every page Foo gets a link to FooTalk on top".
23:55 FurnaceBoy cmarcelo: neat idea
23:55 mncharity re migrate, they are already migrating _off_ a mediawiki (well, migrating some content off of someone elses)  http://perl.net.au/wiki/ .
23:55 lambdabot Title: Main Page - PerlNet
23:56 loer anyone has an idea about AI- datamining?
23:56 * FurnaceBoy 's pet hate is the proliferation of wiki markups. and that people keep designing bad ones.
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23:57 mncharity in the case of mediawiki's template language, really really horrifically bad ones.  even using PHP as a standard of good.
23:57 FurnaceBoy :)
23:59 mncharity eg, you can't in general have functions pass arguments to other functions, and almost never 3 deep, because you have to quote/escape each level in a content dependent manner.
23:59 mncharity *shudder*

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Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo