Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-02-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 FurnaceBoy eek
00:00 mncharity that's why there's lots of   <begin foo>  do stuff <end foo>   rather than <foo(stuff)>
00:05 mncharity FurnaceBoy: re twiki, yeah, I ran one for parrot development years ago.  Never caught on, and went away when it was used as a security hole.  But having a real language provided lots of opportunity for "domain specific" value-added, like wiki-based pod editing.
00:10 mncharity what's something quick and simple to do...  been thinking of a "sixcmd", which takes env vars PUGS_ROOT and PARROT_ROOT, so I can just say "sixcmd pugs ..."  or "sixcmd rakudo..." or "sixcmd kp6...", anywhere, and not have to worry about what directory I have to be in for each one to run (they can't be installed).
00:12 FurnaceBoy twiki didn't go anywhere :)
00:12 FurnaceBoy but its security status is a little under a cloud.
00:12 FurnaceBoy prefer its markup to MediaWiki
00:13 FurnaceBoy i mean, it's still around.
00:13 mncharity at the time, there wasn't even a security mailing list.  after lots of sites were compromised, there was "hmm, maybe we should start a list for admins".
00:15 mncharity re markup, what's really sad is they are all so similar, one could have a "I want to edit pages in X-like markup" as a preferences setting.
00:16 FurnaceBoy yes.
00:16 mncharity a feature request for the eventual 'wiki written in p6'. :)
00:17 FurnaceBoy similar - and every one is imperfect.
00:17 FurnaceBoy switchable markups is a very good idea
00:17 FurnaceBoy because there is no sign that people are evolving "the perfect markup",
00:17 FurnaceBoy or if they are, it's very hard to tell.
00:17 mncharity lol
00:17 FurnaceBoy e.g. Redmine copied Trac, but made some things better and some things *worse*.
00:17 FurnaceBoy that was depressing.
00:18 mncharity /me googles redmine
00:18 FurnaceBoy http://redmine.org
00:18 lambdabot Title: Redmine - Overview - Redmine
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00:20 mncharity ooo, if that could grow into an alternative to gforge (the maintaining of which is apparently very scary), that would be quite valuable.
00:21 FurnaceBoy Trac is so reliable for us that I am loath to switch tools or even upgrade it. :-)
00:23 FurnaceBoy plus there are little things in redmine's wiki markup that are going to annoy me unbearably
00:24 mncharity re reliable/upgrade, :)
00:25 FurnaceBoy i guess that also implies that we don't find it *too* lacking.
00:25 FurnaceBoy we use the Svn hook to annotate tickets. awesome feature, combined with Trac mail notifications.
00:25 mncharity 'Svn hook to annotate tickets'?
00:26 FurnaceBoy commit messages get appended to tickets.
00:26 mncharity by mentioning a ticket number in the message?
00:26 FurnaceBoy we also have an svnbot in our jabber room inspired by the one here
00:26 FurnaceBoy yes.
00:27 FurnaceBoy 'blah blah refs #333 and resolves #666'
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00:28 mncharity re svnbot, :)  yes, nice infrastructure here.
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00:31 mncharity end of day.  g'night all &
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00:39 pasteling "Klovn" at 77.46.173.220 pasted "I need help with last line. The thing is: can I put Value of POSTDATA between ""(double-quotes) instead of ''(single-quotes), cause I need to include variables?" (14 lines, 695B) at http://sial.org/pbot/30340
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04:15 JDlugosz Hello world!
04:15 Auzon Hi
04:16 JDlugosz I aim to learn Perl6.
04:16 JDlugosz This is my first time to use IRC.
04:17 Auzon Perl 6 is a moving target somewhat
04:17 pmichaud although it's moving less than it once did :-)
04:17 spinclad you *will* like it.
04:17 JDlugosz Am I missing something?  I figured this place is always hoppin, but I only see a couple lines of chat.
04:17 pmichaud certainly I don't expect the basics to change much more
04:18 JDlugosz Anyway... I installed Pugs on Windows Vista.  I'm looking for some answers.
04:18 TimToady well, most of the daytime is spread over the Pacific Ocean at the moment :)
04:18 spinclad it's been pretty quiet today (typical weekend lately)
04:18 JDlugosz Daylight?  Hackers come out at night.
04:18 Auzon pssssh, daytime
04:18 pmichaud 05:18 here.
04:18 pmichaud although I'll have a lot more daytime than usual today.
04:19 JDlugosz 10:18 PM here in Dallas.
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04:19 spinclad 23:19:15
04:19 pmichaud heh.  24 hours from now, my local time will be the same as JDlugosz'
04:19 JDlugosz So, Pugs on Vista.  Anyone else here a Windows user?
04:20 Auzon Not here
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04:20 pmichaud I use Windows for Photoshop and TurboTax, but that's about it.
04:20 spinclad [particle1 is
04:21 * pmichaud wonders if it's too early to find some breakfast here
04:21 JDlugosz My Vista-specific question concerns UTF-8.  I set the Console to utf-8, but Pugs itself still acts wrong.  For example, it chokes on the double angle quotes.
04:21 Auzon does it work fine in a separate file?
04:21 spinclad chokes how?
04:21 JDlugosz It works fine (assumes UTF-8) for reading files, but for the interactive mode...
04:22 pmichaud I wonder if Rakudo suffers the same issue.  Actually, I'm not sure that Rakudo is even reading files as utf8 yet
04:22 Auzon I'd suggest trying it in Cygwin's bash or something
04:22 pmichaud maybe that'll be a project for the plane -- get the <<'s to work
04:22 spinclad i would wonder if the console is full unicode aware, but i'd be showing my bias
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04:23 Auzon spinclad: I wonder the same thing
04:23 Auzon You could try it by printing some Unicode (Perl 5 would be a good baseline)
04:23 JDlugosz For details, see <http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=669807>.
04:24 JDlugosz I'll be on a plane this weekend, but no power!! 18 hours with no Jolt Cola nor computer.  I'll go insane.
04:24 pmichaud for the answer to your other question, it's "\x[00ab]"
04:24 JDlugosz Auzon: yes, a file only works in UTF-8.
04:24 pmichaud (square brackets instead of curlies)
04:25 Auzon JDlugosz: does printing UTF8 work?
04:25 JDlugosz spinclad: I set the console to UTF8 using the proper command.  I can paste characters and they look right.
04:26 JDlugosz pmichaud:  many thanks.
04:27 pmichaud 75degF in Dallas!  Is winter over already...?
04:27 pmichaud (tomorrow's high)
04:27 JDlugosz Well, Pugs writes the character as two unprintable control characters.
04:28 JDlugosz pmichaud: why did they change to square brackets?
04:28 pmichaud curlies in Perl 6 mean "closure"
04:28 pmichaud thus:   say "You have { $base + $extra / 2 } units."
04:29 pmichaud for consistency, curlies in Perl 6 always mean "closure", which means we don't want to be using them for \x
04:29 JDlugosz Auzon: I just tried, and it did not print correctly.  I got two unprintable characters.
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04:29 JDlugosz pmichaud: I see.  I did notice the general use of curlies there, which is nice.
04:30 JDlugosz In the console window, I used the command "chcp 65001" and set the suitable font.  Perhaps there is something else that is needed?
04:30 julian_ joined #perl6
04:31 spinclad JDlugosz: (no idea.  the windows i use are X.)
04:31 JDlugosz Hopefully someone will see this in the logs.  If nobody knows, I can fiddle with the Windows console end of things, and meet up with someone who knows how the stdio streams in Pugs are set up.
04:32 JDlugosz OK, I have another question.
04:33 JDlugosz Is there a list of what works and what doesn't yet, in Pugs?
04:33 spinclad the tests it passes; you could check the smoke site.
04:33 JDlugosz For example, I tried a macro, and got an error.  But I thought some things already were macros, so how can they not work?  Is it my mistake or are macros unsupported?
04:34 pmichaud I don't know that there's a list of things that work/don't work in pugs
04:34 TimToady no macros yet
04:34 pmichaud the best way to find out is to often look at the tests and see if there's a test for it
04:35 pmichaud if there's no test, it probably doesn't work
04:35 pmichaud if there is a test, then you can see if the test works
04:35 spinclad t/macros/*.t: 6 files
04:35 TimToady macros were planned to be the last thing implemented in pugs
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04:36 TimToady after MO, which audreyt didn't get to quite
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04:36 JDlugosz Hmm, I found smoke.pugscode.org, but the reports are all quite old.
04:36 julian_ joined #perl6
04:37 Auzon http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/
04:37 Auzon Try that
04:37 JDlugosz OK, where are these *.t files?
04:37 spinclad could likely use some love
04:37 pmichaud *.t is in the t/ directory
04:38 TimToady most of the active development is on other implementations than pugs these days
04:38 JDlugosz Tim: after what?  M0?
04:38 TimToady but it was very useful for developing tests
04:38 spinclad purl: MO?
04:39 TimToady Metaobjects
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04:39 JDlugosz Auzon: that just has specifications.  Can you be more specific re feather?
04:40 Auzon look in them
04:40 JDlugosz Tim: then is there some implementation you'd suggest over Pugs?
04:40 Auzon they have the test code crossrefed
04:40 TimToady depends on what your interests are
04:41 TimToady perl6: say 42+1
04:41 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[43␤]
04:41 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[43␤]
04:41 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[43␤]
04:42 spinclad purl, MO is meta-objects, the self-descriptive aspect of a class and object system
04:42 TimToady no purl here
04:42 JDlugosz pmichaud: I guess they didn't include that in the binary windows distribution.  I got tons of junk, but no t directory.
04:42 Auzon I like the perl6 mode :
04:42 spinclad i knew that, and i still had no idea.
04:42 Auzon :)
04:43 JDlugosz Tim: rakudo is parrot's version?
04:43 TimToady nod
04:43 spinclad so you don't have an svn checkout then
04:43 TimToady (sorry, a bit distracted at the moment...)
04:43 TimToady svn co is the easiest
04:43 pmichaud JDlugosz: ah, that's possible.  You can also see the tests at http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t
04:44 JDlugosz My interest is in learning, which includes interactive trying, and writing programs for my own use.
04:44 Auzon perl6: {use v5; print "{1+1} # not 2";}
04:44 TimToady at the moment that depends on whether you're more interested in low-level stuff or high-levle
04:44 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[{1+1} # not 2]
04:44 exp_evalbot ..pugs: RESULT[1.0]
04:44 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[Error: file cannot be read: v5.pm␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;panic' pc 158 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:103)␤called from Sub 'require' pc 5728 (src/gen_builtins.pir:4051)␤called from Sub 'use' pc 5694 (src/gen_builtins.pir:4032)␤called from Sub '_block15' pc 57
04:44 exp_evalbot ..(EVAL_10:31)␤called from Sub '_block10' pc 27 (EVAL_10:15)␤called fr...
04:44 TimToady pugs does more of the abstract stuff, rakudo more of the low-level
04:44 Auzon kp6 got it right at least :)
04:45 JDlugosz For real programs, interoperability is good.  I need system functions, not just examining its own navel.  I saw in Audrey Tang's slides that pugs had that?
04:45 spinclad not entirely right...
04:45 TimToady another week or so there may be something based on STD as well  :)
04:45 TimToady at least, I can currently parse 42+1 with STD...
04:46 JDlugosz pmichaud:  thanks, I see that.
04:46 TimToady pugs's system interactions are only adequate for simple tasks
04:46 spinclad oh, wait
04:46 TimToady but I doubt rakudo is much further along there
04:46 pmichaud correct, rakudo doesn't have much in the way of system functions yet
04:47 TimToady most of the implementations are treating that as peripheral to their primary boostrap route
04:47 pmichaud just needs someone to write the appropriate objects and classes
04:47 TimToady pugs lets you get at most of Perl across a bridge
04:47 TimToady *Perl 5
04:48 TimToady though I've found that's a little to flakey to run a parser with :)
04:48 TimToady *too
04:48 JDlugosz If it handles Perl5 modules, no problem.  There is lots of Windows stuff in CPAN, and the Win32 calling class.
04:48 JDlugosz What is STD?
04:48 TimToady the standard Perl 6 grammar written in Perl 6
04:48 TimToady under pugs repo
04:48 TimToady in src/perl6/STD.pm
04:48 pmichaud http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/STD.pm
04:49 TimToady I'm currently working on a chewing gum and bailing wire approach to translating that to Perl 5 and running it
04:49 pmichaud it's a good idea to put on sunglasses before looking at it
04:49 TimToady it's Perl, but it's not your father's Perl  :)
04:50 JDlugosz OK, so what did you mean by "something based on STD", when discussing versions to run?
04:50 TimToady it will look a lot more like yacc to you
04:50 TimToady well, it's just a parser, so it would need a back end
04:50 TimToady kp6 and STD are both retargetable on the back end
04:50 TimToady sort of the inside out approach of parrot
04:50 TimToady which is one target for many languages
04:51 TimToady complementary approaches, we all hope
04:51 spinclad both kp6 and rakudo are aiming their grammars towards STD
04:51 TimToady yes, everyone is aiming there, but STD is aiming there faster :)
04:52 JDlugosz What do you mean by rakudo is better at "low level" stuff?
04:52 TimToady it can do that because it sets all its other sights very low
04:52 TimToady parrot is about VM development
04:52 TimToady so it has primarily been a bottom-up approach
04:52 pmichaud well, I'm hoping that I can liberally steal from the STD parser for PGE :-)
04:52 TimToady they had OO assembly language before they had higher level languages
04:53 TimToady and the parts of HLL they implement so far tend to be the less abstract ones
04:53 JDlugosz So what kind of things work in rakudo that don't work in pugs?  I assume that arithmetic and such were all in there!
04:53 TimToady if parrot comes to grief with respect to Perl 6, it'll be because it was originally designed just to run a better Perl 5
04:53 JDlugosz What is PGE?
04:54 TimToady Parrot Grammar Engine
04:54 pmichaud PGE is the regex engine (parser engine) for Parrot
04:54 TimToady pmichaud's baby
04:54 pmichaud one of them, at any rate.
04:54 TimToady that's one thing that parrot has had a better one of than pugs
04:54 TimToady pugs never did manage to write its own regex engine
04:54 TimToady and all of the ones it borrowed were flakey
04:54 pmichaud pugs had the advantage of already having a parser library.  I didn't really have that for Parrot :-)
04:54 JDlugosz So rakudo will be better at getting the grammar correct, for complex or baroke statements?
04:55 TimToady well, the basic problem with pugs's grammar is that it was written in Haskell
04:55 pmichaud rakudo doesn't really have hashes yet, and it still has a bit to do on list context
04:55 TimToady which most perlfolx don't grok
04:55 pmichaud many of the basic operators work, yes
04:55 TimToady and the parser library isn't really something that was designed to parse Perl 6 the way it wants to be
04:56 JDlugosz doesn't have hashes?  I don't follow.  I tried some simple examples.
04:56 pmichaud rakudo doesn't understand      my %a = ( foo => 'bar' );
04:56 pmichaud it does understand   %a<foo> = 'bar';
04:56 TimToady pugs understands a lot of things, but it runs very slowly
04:56 JDlugosz Oh, I thought you said pugs.
04:57 TimToady and some of the things it understand wrong
04:57 TimToady but it gets hashes
04:57 JDlugosz It reminds me of C++ when I started.
04:57 TimToady JDlugosz: btw, I just added .end .elems and .shape to S29 for you :)
04:58 TimToady but haven't had a chance to respond on PM
04:58 JDlugosz Thanks Tim.
04:58 spinclad pugs also hasn't been tracking Perl 6 changes for the last year
04:58 pmichaud well, I think I'm going to see if the breakfast buffet here is worthwhile.  If not, then I'll head off to the airport
04:59 TimToady have a good flight back
04:59 JDlugosz With all the talk contrasting pugs and parrot, and not any mention of the others, it seems like I should be using those two.
04:59 JDlugosz I'm flying to Shanghi this weekend.  Coach, no laptop power.
04:59 pmichaud well, you may be seeing the biases of the people present now
04:59 spinclad those are the two solidest
04:59 TimToady kp6 is also an interesting effort, much on par with parrot's nqp (not quite perl)
04:59 JDlugosz What is kp6?
04:59 pmichaud I don't know how far along kp6 is as far as Perl 6 execution
04:59 TimToady kinda perl 6
05:00 TimToady fglocks bootstrap on p5, basically
05:00 pmichaud http://www.perlfoundation.org/p​erl6/index.cgi#implementations
05:00 JDlugosz is pqp what you call parrot's implementation, or is that different from rakudo?
05:00 TimToady recently one call smop was started that is looking to be bare metal in C
05:00 spinclad npq?
05:00 TimToady and hopes to be a back end for kp6 and STD
05:00 TimToady not quite perl
05:00 TimToady what rakudo is being bootstrapped in
05:01 pmichaud nqp is a parrot tool for building stuff in parrot
05:01 pmichaud but it's name says it all -- it's really "not quite perl"  :-)
05:01 JDlugosz So... if people keep trying different approaches, will anyone ever finish one?
05:01 TimToady smop
05:01 TimToady smop's strength
05:01 Auzon The idea is that we'll finish enough of them to have diversity :)
05:01 TimToady is that it is trying to build in some fundamental OO abstractions
05:01 JDlugosz Why does perl5 bootstrapping easier now that it was originally?
05:01 TimToady right at the runloop level
05:01 TimToady captures and signatures and such
05:02 pmichaud (perl5 bootstrap)  well, one of the reasons is that it has other implementations (pugs, parrot) to borrow from
05:02 TimToady that's an excellent question
05:03 pmichaud also, the language specification has evolved quite a bit since the last time a perl6-on-perl5 implementation was attempted
05:03 pmichaud and the newer language specs simplify a number of items
05:03 TimToady mncharity is also working on a translation of STD to ruby
05:03 pmichaud (while simultaneously making them more powerful)
05:03 TimToady but basically we understand the semantics much better than we did a couple of years ago
05:03 TimToady and which ones have an impedance match with Perl 5
05:04 TimToady the STD to perl 5 translator hardly uses p5 regexen at all
05:04 TimToady except for very low level matching
05:04 pmichaud oooh, that sounds interesting
05:04 TimToady attempts to use the built-in p5 regex to do parsing have come to grief
05:04 pmichaud I'm eager to look at that
05:05 JDlugosz So it is really a matter of implementing semantics, in whatever language, and you understand those semantics better.
05:05 TimToady cd src/perl6; cheat STD.pm | gimme5 >STD5.pm
05:05 * spinclad thinks he hears the sound of STD to nqp
05:05 TimToady to bootstrap the parser, yes
05:06 TimToady but there's a lot more to a complete implementation than a parser
05:06 TimToady it's just the part I'm most interested in
05:06 pmichaud however, a parser is a necessary requirement :-)
05:06 JDlugosz perl6: say "test evalbot"
05:06 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[test evalbot␤]
05:06 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[test evalbot␤]
05:06 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[test evalbot␤]
05:06 TimToady which is why the system functions and such are in such sad shape :)
05:07 pmichaud TimToady: does gimme5 do the bulk of "creating the parser"?  cheat just fills in the {*} stubs?
05:07 JDlugosz Are "system functions" standardized already?  I assume file I/O is pretty well defined.
05:07 TimToady cheat mostly just treats roles as macros
05:07 TimToady and also
05:07 TimToady undoes the multis into straight calls
05:07 TimToady using name mangling
05:08 pmichaud okay, got it
05:08 TimToady it's also originally used by metholate
05:08 pmichaud JDlugosz: actually, I don't know that file I/O is pretty well defined yet
05:08 TimToady originally cheat was enough to get pugs to parse STD
05:08 TimToady but I've started moving some of the functionality into gimme5
05:08 TimToady and likely cheat will go away at some point
05:08 pmichaud excellent
05:09 TimToady gimme5 is a complete hack, of course
05:09 TimToady but all it has to do is spit out really good Perl 5 :0
05:09 TimToady :) rahter
05:09 JDlugosz Strangly enough, system stuff is something I have an interest in.
05:09 TimToady it's low hanging fruit, for some definition
05:09 pmichaud (gimme5 as hack)   that's okay, I just need something that gives the general idea of adding in the longest token matcher
05:09 TimToady and if you have an interest in it, go for it
05:09 TimToady that part is mostly does right now
05:09 JDlugosz Right now, simply doing file I/O will go a long way.
05:10 TimToady though a* b still doesn't add a's and b's tokens together right
05:10 pmichaud file I/O in perl 6 was also a topic of a hallway conversation yesterday
05:10 pmichaud so it's not only low hanging fruit, but it may also be ripe
05:10 JDlugosz I must go.  Thanks for the pointers.
05:10 TimToady sure
05:10 Auzon See you, JDlugosz
05:11 TimToady if you want to change anything in the pugs repo
05:11 TimToady just ask for a commit bit here
05:11 * ewilhelm wonders where this hallway was
05:11 TimToady fix tests, etc
05:11 pmichaud ewilhelm: fosdem 2008
05:11 JDlugosz Since I've never used svn, that will be a while et.
05:11 TimToady it's pretty easy
05:11 JDlugosz I'll be mostly off-line during my China trip.
05:12 pmichaud JDlugosz: so, have we met?  I live in the Dallas area also (Plano)
05:12 TimToady download a bunch of stuff to look at
05:12 TimToady but don't expect it to look the same when you get back :)
05:12 JDlugosz pmichaud: I don't know.  I used to live in Plano, now Allen.  Maybe some Perlmongers meeting once.
05:12 pmichaud possibly.  DFW.pm hasn't been very active lately.  :-|
05:13 TimToady anyway, appreciate your interest
05:13 pmichaud okay, time for me to check on breakfast -- bbiab
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05:18 pmichaud looks like I'll take my chances at the airport
05:18 pmichaud see you all later (possibly _much_ later)
05:19 Auzon bye
05:28 obra hello from texas, #perl6
05:29 TimToady howdy doo
05:31 * obra grins. I'm working to implement 'conservation of perl6-related people in texas'
05:32 Tene I was also just considering looking into adding file IO stuff to rakudo.
05:33 Tene I was in texas a month ago.
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05:36 obra I'm here for all of 36 hours
05:38 TimToady good luck in your conservation efforts
05:38 obra Thanks much :)
05:38 TimToady sounds a bit...euphamistic...
05:39 Auzon Are Perl 6 people a scarce resource in Texas?
05:39 TimToady is there somewhere they aren't scarce?
05:40 Auzon Touche. Maybe I can find something to hack on someday...
05:40 TimToady *euphemistic
05:41 jjore Isn't the internet in Texas? You've got all the Perl 6 people in your living room already?
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09:48 ruoso @tell mncharity I'm not sure I understood what you've said... SMOP still doesn't have anything related to AST, it will need a limited compiler that translates the code in src-s1p to C
09:48 ruoso ops, no lambdabot...
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12:42 ruoso mncharity, hi
12:42 ruoso lambdabot would have messages for you
12:45 mncharity I just saw. :)
12:47 mncharity the idea is,
12:47 mncharity hmm, maybe I should look at smop first... bbiam
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12:49 ruoso later &
12:49 ruoso mncharity, I'll backlog when I get back
12:55 mncharity interesting.  basically, when you would find it useful to have the parse p6 and compile to s1p/sm0p, i'd be happy to collaborate.
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13:11 pugs_svnbot r19998 | putter++ | [redsix] Separate "done and put to bed" Spring 2006 work, from current development.
13:11 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19998
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13:24 pugs_svnbot r19999 | putter++ | [redsix] Removed r19948's recent for() loop kludge.  for() loops simply aren't working at the moment.
13:24 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19999
13:25 mncharity Who wants the rollover commit? :)
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15:20 mncharity $ svn log -r1
15:20 mncharity r1 | autrijus | 2005-02-06 11:52:06 -0500 (Sun, 06 Feb 2005) | 1 line
15:20 mncharity * Initial checkin.
15:21 pasteling "putter" at 76.24.29.201 pasted "svn log -v -r1" (29 lines, 722B) at http://sial.org/pbot/30343
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15:28 pugs_svnbot r20000 | putter++ | README: Updated copyright line.
15:28 pugs_svnbot r20000 | putter++ | Pugs is Copyright 2005-2008, The Pugs Contributors.
15:28 pugs_svnbot r20000 | putter++ | Celebrating 3 years and 20,000 commits of pugs.
15:28 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20000
15:28 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20000 - Pugs - Trac
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15:31 ruoso mncharity, I think it may already be usefull to experiment on the conversion from s1p to C
15:32 mncharity I was thinking of the conversion from p6 to s1p. :)
15:32 ruoso s1p is already p6
15:32 mncharity ooo, missed that.
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15:37 mncharity http://www.perlfoundation.org​/perl6/index.cgi?smop_oo_api "transversal to Perl 6" *universal (not sure where my pf.org password is:/)
15:37 lambdabot Title: SMOP OO API / Perl 6
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15:45 mncharity hmm.  i'm still fuzzy.  there sm0p is running and has tests.  s1p is currently just spec?  and the need is for a s1p-dialect p6 to sm0p compiler?
15:46 cognominal_ slp?
15:46 rakudo_svn r26057 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Implement indirect method calls of forms $x.'foo'() and $x.$foo().
15:49 pugs_svnbot r20001 | particle++ | [spec] migrate some S12 methods tests
15:49 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20001
15:49 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20001 - Pugs - Trac
15:51 mncharity cognominal_: http://www.perlfoundation.org/pe​rl6/index.cgi?smop_s1p_language
15:51 lambdabot Title: SMOP s1p Language / Perl 6
15:51 pugs_svnbot r20002 | putter++ | misc/winter_jig/rx/sixrx: Created.  Script for easy command-line access to regex engines.  Currently only Pugs::Compiler::Rule.
15:51 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20002
15:51 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20002 - Pugs - Trac
15:52 mncharity main page http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop
15:52 lambdabot Title: SMOP / Perl 6
16:06 rakudo_svn r26058 | particle++ | [rakudo] remove deprecated compiler directives replaced by t/spec/fudge
16:21 mncharity bbl.  ruoso: it looks quite interesting. :)  I'll have to look at it more carefully.
16:21 alc :mncharity!n=jobsearc@c-76-24-29-201.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #perl6 :+bbl.  ruoso: it looks quite interesting. :)  I'll have to look at it more carefully.
16:22 * mncharity wonders what the bleep that was.
16:22 * alc wonders what the bleep that was.
16:24 TimToady weird
16:24 alc :TimToady!n=larry@host01a.appflux.net PRIVMSG #perl6 :+weird
16:24 was kicked by TimToady: TimToady
16:25 TimToady hopefully that fixed it
16:25 Tene looks like a bot with a bug.
16:25 mncharity :)
16:25 [particle] ty
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19:25 pugs_svnbot r20003 | putter++ | misc/winter_jig/sixen/sixcmd: Created - A script making it easier to call pugs/kp6/rakudo/redsix.  Hides what directory you need to be in, and the executable invocation.  The variation in command-line arguments is _not_ normalized - that's another project.
19:25 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20003
19:25 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20003 - Pugs - Trac
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19:40 pugs_svnbot r20004 | putter++ | [redsix] dusting (first half).  Move redsix to redsix.rb.  The suffix makes emacs ruby-mode syntax colorizing happier, which on the redsix code, makes a big difference.
19:40 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20004
19:40 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20004 - Pugs - Trac
19:43 pugs_svnbot r20005 | putter++ | [redsix] dusting (second half).  Add symlink so .../redsix still works.
19:43 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20005
19:43 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20005 - Pugs - Trac
19:50 pugs_svnbot r20006 | putter++ | [redsix] Add a -v verbose argument.  Change default behavior to non-verbose.
19:50 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20006
19:50 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20006 - Pugs - Trac
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20:17 mncharity /me wonders whether to add pil2js to sixcmd.  ./runjs.pl -e 'say(3);' fails with  InternalError: too much recursion .  And it's inactive. and doesn't seem on a critical path... so I guess not for now.
20:30 mncharity hmm.  the misc/old_pugs_perl5_backend/ is also off the air.  perhaps pugs -C PIL changed in the intervening 2+ years?
20:31 mncharity hmm, or rather since 2006-10.
20:36 mncharity ok, that's depressing.  all for the want of oo declarations in an ast yaml dump. :/
20:36 mncharity back to work.
21:13 mncharity obra: apropos my claim we've been blocked since late 2005 for want of a parser willing to provide a parse tree with oo info, consider http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/​perl5/PIL2JS/lib6/Prelude/JS/ http://svn.pugscode.org/pug​s/perl5/PIL2JS/libjs/Perl6/ and http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/old_pugs_pe​rl5_backend/PIL-Run/lib6/P5Runtime/PrimP6.pm .
21:13 lambdabot Title: Revision 20006: /perl5/PIL2JS/lib6/Prelude/JS
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21:15 mncharity We're still trying to recreate those capabilities.  To do the same thing, just this time without pugs and audreyt.  Lots of assorted progress has certainly been made since.  And we can look forward to moving rather more rapidly than we could have back then.  Once we catch back up to where we were.
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22:45 ludan hi
22:47 diakopter TimToady: what do you want to name your prog that can parse 42+1, for moritz' evalbot
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23:12 TimToady given that the output of that is currently 454 lines of yaml, I don't think you want evalbot to do anything with it yet
23:13 TimToady likely what you're going to end up with is names of both a frontend and backend
23:14 TimToady STD-smop, STD-parrot, etc.
23:14 TimToady or STD5-whatever
23:14 Limbic_Region TimToady - did you see the PM /msg I left you?
23:14 TimToady if you count the gimme5-translated version of STD to be a different thing
23:15 TimToady yes, he was on here last night
23:15 TimToady several of us were trying to help him along
23:16 TimToady I also added .end, .elems etc to S29
23:16 Limbic_Region I didn't triage it
23:16 Limbic_Region just noticed it was up your alley
23:17 TimToady well, he had a good point, I just didn't repsond directly, but like I do respond half the time, just with a spec update :)
23:17 TimToady and to give other people a chance to respond :)
23:18 TimToady if all I do is answer questions directly, nothing ever actually gets done. :)
23:18 TimToady though I enjoy doing that...
23:31 Limbic_Region regarding LTM, is it the greatest thing since sliced bread or is it still a work in progress (the idea - not the implementation)
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23:46 TimToady the idea is pretty much nailed down
23:47 Limbic_Region ok - something you are happy with then
23:47 Limbic_Region good
23:47 TimToady I don't know if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's a necessity for mutable grammars
23:47 TimToady it's a form of reducing footprint of damage
23:48 TimToady much as you want to restrict a declaration to its smallest lexical scope
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23:48 Limbic_Region well, I guess what I was getting at is that I knew you knew what you wanted to achieve but were struggling with the way to accomplish it.  I was wondering if you conceded a comprimise for forward progress or if you actually were pleased with the result
23:48 TimToady the other extreme, illustrated in p5, is source filtering
23:48 TimToady well, the implementation still doesn't quite match the idea, in spots
23:49 TimToady at the moment the implementation treats each named rule as an alternation
23:49 TimToady but the granularity of LTM is the (a|b|c) level
23:49 TimToady and a given named rule can have several of those
23:49 TimToady each of those has to do its LTM separately
23:50 TimToady but it has to take into account any (|) from the top of any subrules too
23:50 Limbic_Region that's what the cache thingy is for?
23:50 TimToady the interesting questions come at the point where you decide what to propagate upward as visible alternatives
23:50 TimToady yes, but the cache is currently based on the name of the rule
23:51 TimToady I've got it to where it gives each (|) its own name now
23:51 TimToady but I have to convert the caching to that granularity
23:51 TimToady or maybe not, since you can't get at the lower ones without entering the top one
23:51 Limbic_Region now is that a matter of fiddling with the implementation
23:52 Limbic_Region or is that a matter of further thinking
23:52 TimToady but the lower ones have to sometimes participate in the higher ones, depending on where they come in a sequence and how they are quantified
23:52 TimToady it's certainly an interesting problem
23:52 Limbic_Region well, yes - at least for me from afar
23:53 TimToady if you have /a* b/ then the initial LTM depends on whether a is itself pure
23:53 TimToady if so, you just treat it as part of the rule, since something like / \w* \d / can be done in DFA
23:54 TimToady if not, you have to treat a as its own alternative, and your list of initial tokens ends up being the union of a's LTM and b's
23:54 Limbic_Region do you remember the thread a while back on perl regexes and how performance wise, things could be made much faster if a few features were dropped (greatly paraphrased on my part)?
23:54 TimToady and there are interesting questions such as, suppose a is only partly pure?
23:55 Limbic_Region at perlmonks that is
23:55 rakudo_svn r26062 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Make $.x used away from declaration with has do something closer to the right thing.
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23:55 TimToady certainly, considering this will fix that once and for all
23:56 TimToady my response to that thread was .oO(grr, working on it...)
23:56 Limbic_Region that's the reason this is so interesting to me
23:56 TimToady this is not just about rules at the parsing level
23:56 TimToady all regex in p6 will be smart about doing those parts in DFA that they can
23:56 jnthn TimToady: In STD.pm, I'm trying to work out how a method call on $_ (as in, just .foo()) gets parsed.
23:56 Limbic_Region exactly
23:56 TimToady and then transparently (more or less) switching to backtracking where necessary
23:57 Limbic_Region that's what I was thinking in that thread - for p5 that is - only rather than expect perl and the regex engine to figure it out
23:57 Limbic_Region a special syntax to allow the user to specify - safe to DFA
23:57 TimToady jnthn: it's possible it's simply missing :)
23:57 jnthn TimToady: Aha, OK. Was trying to work out the Right Way to add that to Rakudo.
23:58 TimToady I know there's been work in p5 to inflict tries on the regex engine where possible
23:58 TimToady a trie is just a DFA extended only over the constant strings
23:58 TimToady (to the first approx)
23:58 Limbic_Region yes, demerphq (Yves) did a lot of work on the p5 regex engine
23:58 Limbic_Region as did others (now re-entrant safe)
23:58 TimToady but I'm going for all the marbles :)
23:58 TimToady which renders tries completely unnecessary
23:59 Limbic_Region forgive me for being completely ignorant here, but will this allow us to have variable width assertions?
23:59 TimToady maybe someday someone will retrofit the autolexer to p5, I dunno
23:59 TimToady um, not sure what you're asking, example?

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