Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-03-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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10:54 lichtkind are min and max arraymethods?
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12:39 pugs_svnbot r20043 | putter++ | src/perl6/STD5_run_post: a postprocesser for STD5_run, which improves the yaml output (currently by removing the prior field in class Perl).
12:39 pugs_svnbot r20043 | putter++ | ./STD5_run EXPR '-3+2' | ./STD5_run_post
12:39 pugs_svnbot r20044 | putter++ | src/perl6/STD5_run_post: fix the 'example usage' comment.
12:39 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20044
12:39 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20044 - Pugs - Trac
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15:21 TimToady lichtkind: yes, but min and max are also binary operators. so [min] and [max] are reduce ops.
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15:23 lichtkind TimToady: yes than one i remembered thanks i currently updating my perl 6 tutorial :)
15:24 lichtkind TimToady: do you consider perl table as a bad name for an tutorial ?
15:26 lichtkind TimToady: the idea behind it is similiarity to emerald table and also table in a sense that you know where to look for if you look for something specific
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16:43 * sordith_ sits with lichtkind at his perl table and computes
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17:03 mncharity Consider "class A { }".
17:03 mncharity The STD story is  token package_declarator:class { <sym> <package_def> {*} }
17:03 mncharity modified by a  proto token package_declarator (:$endsym is context = 'nofat') { }
17:03 mncharity to  token package_declarator:class { 'class' <nofat> <package_def> {*} }.
17:04 mncharity The a parser/compiler takes that {*} or Match, and does something magic.
17:04 mncharity If the user wishes to make class() do something slightly different, say take an extra argument, it's unclear how they should interact with the magic.
17:05 mncharity There's also been a second story, fuzzily in my mind, whose validity or connection to the first I dont' grok.
17:06 mncharity That the prelude has a  macro package_declarator:class is parsed / <sym> <package_def> / {...}.
17:06 mncharity Now, the <block> in <package_def> is spec'ed as "executes at compile time as the body of a method of the metaclass, which is responsible for interpreting the keywords of the class definition".
17:06 mncharity Suggesting that the {...} above rewrites the block, changing say "method m(){}" to something like
17:07 mncharity "./method(m,\(),{});", and then eval'ing it A.
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17:07 mncharity With the second story I understand what a user does to modify 'class'.
17:08 mncharity But... thoughts?
17:11 mncharity In the second story I don't understand how BEGIN{} works.  It is needed to finish parsing the <block> (eg, it might modify the running parser).  But it can also see things earlier in the <block>, which the macro hasn't had a chance to rewrite, or eval in the right place.
17:11 mncharity s/chance/chance yet/
17:15 mncharity It makes me think of having separate PARSE{} and BEGIN{}, one only able to see the parser, the other... dunno...?
17:16 mncharity s/and then eval'ing it A./and then eval'ing it in A./
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17:46 mncharity Perhaps 'method' is a macro, which does the rewrite.  And perhaps BEGIN{} calls a, not magic but unusual, sub which grovels upward over the ast.  An "eval everything which hasn't been, in preparation for BEGIN' sub.   Which seems a bit messy.  Then the package_declarator:class macro doesn't do much.  In the absence of a BEGIN... hmm.
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18:02 TimToady mncharity: declarations always take effect immediately, so in essence the method reduction is what actually runs the code in the metaclass to install the method; it's not a separate pass from the parser, though that's how the 2nd story makes it seem.
18:03 TimToady lichtkind: 'table' can't really be made to mean that in English.  It's either something you sit in front of, or it's a rectangular layout of data.
18:05 TimToady mncharity: in fact, the way declarations are specced to work is that the name is inserted into the symbol table the moment it is seen, even before we've seen the rest of its declaration.
18:05 TimToady the rest of the declaration just modifies the initial entry
18:06 TimToady whether by (...) signature or "is" traits or by a {...} body
18:07 TimToady sub foo ($x) { foo($x-1) if $x > 0 } is legal self-reference
18:07 TimToady as is sub foo ($x = foo($x-1)) {...}
18:07 TimToady likewise any declared item in a signature can refer to earlier items in the same signature
18:08 TimToady so as soon as you see "method foo" the metaclass must be told that "foo" is a valid method, though not completely defined yet
18:09 lichtkind TimToady: and tablets?
18:09 TimToady well, people will think "pills", unless you say "stone tablets" in which case people will think about the Ten Commandments :)
18:10 lichtkind TimToady: but the emerald tablet were there first and moses did just cheap ripoff
18:11 lichtkind but true the guy from tpf also had problems with it
18:12 TimToady I've never heard of the emerald tablet...
18:12 TimToady sounds like something from Oz
18:12 lichtkind haha
18:12 TimToady maybe it's called something else in our culture?
18:13 lichtkind its at least old as pyramids it from agyptian mystery tradition
18:13 lichtkind written long before moses came to egypt
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18:15 pmurias lichtkind: tables brings more a referance than a tutorial to mind
18:16 lichtkind pmurias: but thats exactly the direction i heading with that attempt :)
18:16 pmurias * reference
18:16 TimToady I seriously doubt it's as old as Moses
18:17 TimToady feels gnostic to me
18:17 lichtkind yes was also part of gnostic traditian
18:17 TimToady oldest attestation is about 800ad
18:17 lichtkind tradition
18:17 lichtkind shure
18:18 lichtkind but thats only science pint of view
18:20 TimToady the name Hermes also strikes me as rather derivative of greek culture
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18:21 lichtkind TimToady: for good reason but thats whyt it was called in theses days
18:21 mncharity hmm.  ok.  so the key question is how things provide context downwards.  eg, a 'class' macro saying "btw, you're now inside a class, not just a module", for all the code which gets run in it's <block>, before the macro gets to touch the control flow again.
18:21 lichtkind TimToady: before these times it was called djehuti
18:22 TimToady well, let me know if you have any luck turning lead into gold...
18:23 mncharity Perhaps things groveling *up* the ast is part of the story?  but has the flavor of an abstraction violation.  perhaps one could constrain it as passing a "blackboard" down, somehow restricting/clarifying what gets scribbled there.
18:23 TimToady mncharity: so far we've been using context vars for things like that, but maybe we need a more official way to pass info down the parse tree
18:24 lichtkind TimToady: i never tried but its easier than many think if you know the works of walter russel
18:25 mncharity macro package_declarator:class is parsed / <sym> <package_def> / has blackboard(:package_type<class>) {...}  ?
18:25 mncharity has gossip
18:27 TimToady is parsed / :my $?CLASS = self.mumble; <sym> <nofat> <package_def> /
18:27 TimToady or some such
18:27 TimToady :my $?CLASS is context = ...
18:28 TimToady hmm, :constant $?CLASS is context =.... maybe
18:29 TimToady something that looks lexically scoped to a user is often dynamically scoped in the compiler
18:29 pmurias TimToady: is $?CLASS constant?
18:30 mncharity is parsed / {do_classy_stuff()} <sym> <nofat> <package_def> / ?  to abstract away the details, else I fear / <sym> <nofat> <package_def> / becoming many lines of opaque code.
18:30 TimToady it's a constant at run time, but the compiler is in the business of determining the value of all sorts of constants, and limiting their scope dynamically
18:30 TimToady (dynamically to the compiler, statically to the user)
18:31 TimToady well, <sym> is just parsing "class", so we haven't even got to the name yet
18:31 TimToady package_def parses that part
18:31 TimToady or something package_def calls...
18:33 TimToady gotta go play drums
18:33 TimToady bbl &
18:34 mncharity yes, but in general, one want's to abstract it away into an api, no?  eg, it's no just :my $?CLASS is context = ..., but :my $?CLASS is context = my $?MODULE is context = my $?PACKAGE is context = ... ;  and that's probably not the end of it all.
18:34 mncharity mmm, play drums.  neat idea.
18:34 mncharity nah.  STD_red for a few hours I think.
18:35 lichtkind where i can find the std.pm ?
18:35 mncharity src/perl6/STD.pm.  Run with  STD5_run.  parses '-42+3'.
18:36 mncharity err, ./STD5_run EXPR -e '-42+3'
18:36 mncharity there's also misc/STD_red, with std.rb, a ruby hand transliteration of STD.pm.
18:38 pugs_svnbot r20045 | pmurias++ | [kp6-mp6like] removed a bit of accidentaly comiited code which didn't compile
18:38 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20045
18:38 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20045 - Pugs - Trac
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18:46 lichtkind mncharity: what is std_red?
18:46 lichtkind thanks
18:46 lichtkind (for the answer)
18:46 lichtkind so pugs seems still alive?
18:47 mncharity TimToady: in STD.pm, the paragraph beginning "Also, some rules are named by syntactic category", seems to suggest a infix:sym<+> would get a default "symbol name for the rule" of '+', not 'infix:+'?  which seems odd.
18:50 mncharity lichtkind: STD_red purpose is to be a rapidly available 'more or less full' parser for p6, which runs useably fast, to serve as a temporary support for development of things further down the pipeline (ast's, compilation, and backends).  It differs from the other similar things in:
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18:52 mncharity STD5 is more focused on figuring out the true longest-token parse story.  STD_red just fudges, accepts backtracking, and hopes not to lose to much of the language.  parrot 'parse and emit ast', not yet available, plans on doing an incremental converge on STD.  If it existed, and proved to have good coverage, STD_red would probably stay on hold.  Next,
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18:56 mncharity ./script/kp6 -Cast-yaml, parses only the small kp6 dialect of p6.  redsix uses a ruby version of pugs's old parser grammar, which is now somewhat out of date.  By itself, redsix would be easier to set up as a temporary support.  But STD_red has fringe benefits of helping somewhat with STD.pm, and being closer to spec, which helps make downstream more spec-ish.
18:58 mncharity And pugs, which can do -CPIL-mumble, but doesn't include oo information, which is needed as soon as we have a running pipeline, to pour prelude and rx_on_re and other p6 code through.
18:58 mncharity maze of twisty little passages.
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19:02 mncharity re alive, in the last few days, it seems the pugs build broke.  i'm unclear on the current story.  if it doesn't converge soon, we'll likely need to revert.  or perhaps someone haskelly can take on what would have helped us many times over the years, duplicating pugs into a stable and development copy.  We were able to fudge the two together early on because we
19:03 mncharity had high-powered hs developers.  It's rather more iffy now.
19:03 mncharity *who could keep the build working, even while doing major changes
19:05 lichtkind ah thanks but pugs itsel dont evolve these days?
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19:06 mncharity mostly just "adapt to new versions of ghc" maintenance.
19:08 mncharity i suspect once more of the fuzzy uncertainties about what a p6 implementation should do (which in it's day, pugs was key in pruning back, and now, other implementations are helping with), a hs implementation will wake up again.  there's just so much neat stuff one can do with one.
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19:10 mncharity but pugs is, by far, still the closest thing we have to a working p6 implementation.
19:11 mncharity err, avoiding ambiguity, that's  *still the thing we have which most resembles a working p6 implementation
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19:12 ewilhelm any interest in mentoring pugs projects for summer of code?
19:13 mncharity ewilhelm: pugs as in haskell pugs, or non-parrot perl 6 in general?
19:14 ewilhelm either
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19:14 ewilhelm http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/perl5/index.cgi?gsoc2008
19:14 lambdabot Title: gsoc2008 / Perl 5 Wiki
19:17 diakopter ewilhelm: leave a message for ruoso and/or fglock
19:17 mncharity lichtkind: re closest thing in development space (rather than resemblance), there are currently three interrelated visions, and lots of commone pieces: parrot's rakudo (fully parrot based impl); my decoupling implementation for bootstrap on a big and fast p6 subset and p5/ruby backends; and kp6's bootstrap on a small p6 subset.
19:17 mncharity ewilhelm: looking...
19:18 lichtkind mncharity: word about rakudo is well spread but havent herad recently anything abou tkp6
19:21 mncharity kp6 has lately been less active than it once was.  though pmurias has been working recently to give it a faster p5 backend, hoping to work towards a bootstrap of kp6 on kp6.
19:22 mncharity ewilhelm: ahh, you're looking for mentors as the mentor admin, not as a mentoree. :)
19:22 ewilhelm yep, trying anyway
19:23 ewilhelm we still have to write the application and hope google accepts us
19:24 mncharity hmm.  a task would have to have what characteristics: not critical path; not likely to be rendered obsolete by changing context; cost less time in mentoring than doing it yourself; ... what else?
19:25 ewilhelm well, the student will be working full time for 11 weeks and getting paid
19:26 mncharity concrete deliverables (it would be nice to have people become domain experts on various things, to serve as resources, but that doesn't fit well with the soc model).
19:26 ewilhelm yeah, hopefully you gain a long-term participant
19:27 ewilhelm and one that had to compete to get in
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19:28 ewilhelm but the main deliverable is code
19:28 mncharity part of the problem is student time ranges from what passes for software engineers in the world, through people you'd hire at $200K/yr and feel you got a deal.  which makes it hard to target.
19:28 ewilhelm of course, the ideas page is only for suggestions
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19:29 ewilhelm assume 11 weeks at 40hrs/wk with allowance for learning time
19:29 ewilhelm nevermind that this is $8/hr -- it is an internship
19:30 mncharity perhaps something Perl 6 spec-ish?  there's lots and lots of work which needs to be done.  some (much?) of it not bottlenecked on deciding what the spec should be.
19:31 mncharity *needs to be done to get us to a Perl 6 certification test suite.
19:31 ewilhelm as long as it is code -- google won't buy documentation-only projects
19:31 mncharity either manual groveling or generative testing
19:32 mncharity re doc-only, I'm thinking test cases and infrastructure.  but I'm out of date / unfamiliar with what the current t/spec vision/story is.
19:32 ewilhelm hmm, actually it is $10/hr
19:34 ewilhelm don't get too detailed thinking of project ideas -- you first need to help sell google the idea of "Perl Foundation" as a mentor organization, then you need to sell the student on the idea of working on Perl 6
19:34 mncharity for p6 coding, so much depends on where we are at a few months from now.  we might have a wizzy p6 by end of March, or still be slogging along come summer.
19:34 lichtkind mncharity: i also ask because the things i recognized on pugs werent fixed  in the last 6 month therefore, even nevermind to hype perl 6 i bit careful to write something about pugs for larger publisher  when its not alive
19:35 * ewilhelm cannot read the future either
19:35 mncharity ah, ok.  yes, for that, no, pugs is not under active development.
19:36 ewilhelm so, would any SOC work "re: perl 6" be better aimed at supporting/testing the language on parrot?
19:37 ewilhelm or is there something that a student would want (and be able) to do from the pugs approach?
19:37 lichtkind mncharity: i also heard that someone is doing something also called p6doc (i maintain the module perl6::Doc)
19:39 mncharity re 'read the future either', my impression, and thus my focus, is it's not actually a technical problem anymore, but a social one.  eg, given a couple of good fte resources, I strongly suspect we could have a pugs-like p6 (on ruby backend, static parser, prelude in p6) by end of month.  so the question is how to find the people, and get them moving in the same direction.
19:40 diakopter ewilhelm: ruoso is working on a possible backend for kp6/mp6 (fglock's kindaperl6 Perl 6 bootstrapping implementation) - see http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop  for details.  Also see http://www.perlfoundation.or​g/perl6/index.cgi?kindaperl6
19:40 lambdabot Title: SMOP / Perl 6
19:40 mncharity an old thought was to structure it as a ruby-community hackathon, a few days of low order 10 people.  but current vision looks like there's much more p6 than ruby code, so that's looking less viable now.
19:41 lichtkind mncharity: why you think its so much ruby inside of pugs?
19:42 diakopter ewilhelm: along with what mncharity mentioned, a possible project could be to "complete" (haha) the Perl 6 test suite (which is currently officially maintained in the pugs subversion repository)
19:42 lichtkind mncharity: my focus is strictly on organising and writing docs, since i have project my own
19:42 mncharity clarification: smop will work as a backend for anything.  given some of what it requires from it's compiler (eg, making lexical scopes go away), a kp6 dialect implementation actually seems the less likely path.
19:42 diakopter mncharity: oh; clarification taken
19:42 mncharity but perhaps not less likely by much :)
19:42 * ewilhelm is just herding cats
19:42 lichtkind which status has SMOP i read the wiki but not learned from it that much
19:43 mncharity lichtkind: "why you think its so much ruby inside of pugs?", I don't understand?
19:43 diakopter ewilhelm: I am sure that the "Perl 6 Test Suite" SoC project would
19:44 diakopter meet the qualifications
19:44 ewilhelm volunteer to mentor and add your ideas http://www.perlfoundation.org/pe​rl5/index.cgi?gsoc2008_projects
19:44 mncharity re cats, there are some hiding on top of the cabinet
19:44 lambdabot Title: gsoc2008_projects / Perl 5 Wiki
19:44 diakopter and I'm sure you could find someone here to nominally mentor, though the whole channel would end up mentoring, really.
19:44 ewilhelm or just add your ideas
19:45 ewilhelm well, mentors need to be readily available to guide the student through the shark-infested waters of irc/lists
19:45 ewilhelm and to nag them for commits, progress reports
19:45 mncharity sharkbots
19:46 diakopter ewilhelm: good point.
19:46 lichtkind mncharity: why do you think, there is so much ruby code inside of pugs?
19:46 mncharity ok, food.  bbiab.  re  http://www.perlfoundation.org/pe​rl5/index.cgi?gsoc2008_projects , perhaps highlight the deadlines and what is needed for them?
19:46 lambdabot Title: gsoc2008_projects / Perl 5 Wiki
19:48 mncharity lichtkind: there is no ruby inside pugs, the haskell p6 implementation.  there is some ruby in pugs, the repository, mostly as misc/pX/Common/redsix , though also as misc/STD_red and a stillborn ruby backend for kp6, well, because I wrote it. :)  the motivation being
19:49 lichtkind mncharity: may i ask where you are :)
19:50 mncharity it's traditional, and easiest, to implement a new language, and get it bootstrapped, by building on a similar but existing language.  eg, lisp-like languages usually bootstrap from lisp.  ruby is probably the most p6-like existing language.  and also has metaprogramming as a strength, which makes it even more valuable for the task.
19:50 mncharity re where, geographically?  Boston
19:51 mncharity lunch.  bbiab.
19:51 lichtkind allright
19:52 lichtkind mncharity: i ment more something else your vision what you done ar so
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19:57 diakopter ewilhelm: I added 3 entries to the suggested projects list.
20:02 lichtkind ewilhelm:  what cats you are hearding?
20:03 mncharity re where, ah, d'oh.  backends are not a problem.  direct to p5 (simple, fast, ok but not great p6 coverage).  direct to ruby (similar, but uninteresting because).  better ruby backend (fast, surprisingly good coverage).
20:05 mncharity compilation is largely unneeded.  redsix, kp6, we're all basically just emitting from a slightly massaged asts.
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20:06 mncharity ast's aren't a big deal.  it's a day's or so work to roll infrastructure for a new (with existing spec, and running code) one.  getting it right is very much harder, but unneeded and explicitly not a goal for the exercise.
20:09 mncharity parser's are the gotcha.  we don't have one.  pugs won't talk about oo.  kp6 is very restricted.  parrot doesn't yet export/expose it's ast (though that could change any day now).  STD5.pm is still limited, and is more research than "be infrastructure *now*.  STD_red is a bit less limited, and has the right focus, but needs lots of grunge work.  redsix... looks less
20:09 mncharity interesting with the prospect of parrot soon, and STD_red maybe.
20:12 mncharity so the development path looks something like 'make the parser bottleneck go away' (finally, after 3-ish years of blockage).  slap an ast on the back.  do dumb a dumb but fast emitter/backend.  start writing p6 objects.  priorities being prelude, and a p6rx_on_p5re engine (probably translated from the p5 yet_another_regex_engine).  bootstrap whenever - doesn't really matter because you're already writing and running ok p6.
20:16 mncharity It's literally under a person week once there's a parser.  the kp6 ast wrapper took a day (albeit without finishing a schema validator).  the ruby backend is basically just copying redsix's with some tweaks.
20:18 ewilhelm lichtkind: mentors and students -- its like herding cats who herd cats
20:19 mncharity lichtkind: so that's where I'm at.  thinking of do the next task on the STD_red path, 'sync and check against current STD.pm, and add Match constructors', because I don't have a feel for when parrot rakudo's yaml ast will become available (eg, it's rsn, but does that mean Monday, or mid March), and what it will cover.  It's March.  Time to get moving.
20:20 mncharity lunch,really &
20:56 pmurias ewilhelm: will TPF participate in 2008  SoC?
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21:00 ewilhelm pmurias: that's what I'm trying to make happen
21:00 ewilhelm TPF has "not impressed" google in the last few years though
21:01 ewilhelm so I need to demonstrate that we have ourselves organized -- need to show a significant pool of willing mentors and project ideas in our application
21:01 ewilhelm (by next friday)
21:04 pmurias ewilhelm: i would like to work on kp6 as my SoC project
21:05 pmurias shower&
21:06 ewilhelm pmurias: you're a qualifying student?
21:07 ewilhelm check back on ~Mar 17th
21:25 pmurias ewilhelm: i hope i'll be ;) (i won't if i fail to get accepted to university)
21:27 mncharity :)
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21:49 lichtkind is there a sprintf format rule to get dotty number like 44.444 ?
21:58 pmurias %.3f
21:58 pugs_svnbot r20046 | pmurias++ | [kp6-mp6like]
21:58 pugs_svnbot r20046 | pmurias++ | runtime in KindaPerl6::Runtime::MiniPerl6Like
21:58 pugs_svnbot r20046 | pmurias++ | for and .map for arrays support
21:58 pugs_svnbot r20046 | pmurias++ | autobox is used
21:58 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20046
21:58 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20046 - Pugs - Trac
22:00 pmurias any interest in a mp6like ROADMAP?
22:10 lichtkind pmurias: thanks a lot
22:11 pmurias your welcome
22:11 pugs_svnbot r20047 | pmurias++ | [kp6-mp6like] &push
22:11 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20047
22:11 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20047 - Pugs - Trac
22:12 lichtkind pmurias: no thats something different i ment every 3 numbers one dot
22:15 lichtkind found it in the FAQ :)
22:15 pmurias lichtkind: i'm afraid you have to code it yourself
22:16 pmurias lichtkind: how do you do it?
22:16 pmurias i mean the sprintf code
22:16 lichtkind pmurias: in the FAQ where local $_  = shift; 1 while s/^([-+]?\d+)(\d{3})/$1,$2/;  return $_;
22:16 lichtkind which works perfectly
22:25 lichtkind pmurias: i reduced it to 1 while s/^(\d+)(\d{3})/$1.$2/;
22:26 lichtkind good night
22:27 pmurias literal: g' night
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22:58 pugs_svnbot r20048 | buchetc++ | [INSTALL] workaround for ghc 6.6.1/cabal 1.1
22:58 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20048
22:58 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20048 - Pugs - Trac
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23:13 pugs_svnbot r20049 | buchetc++ | [t] S17 implementation checks
23:13 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20049
23:13 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20049 - Pugs - Trac
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23:40 pugs_svnbot r20050 | putter++ | misc/STD_red: work-in-progress sync'ing against STD.pm r20027.  And adding more Match()s.  No testing.
23:40 pugs_svnbot r20050 | putter++ | Regression: "use x;" no longer works above the statement rule (ie, in statementlist and UNIT).
23:40 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20050
23:40 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20050 - Pugs - Trac
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23:46 * mncharity will try the 6.6.1 workaround later (doesn't work for me on 6.8.2 either).  buchetc: thanks!
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23:46 mncharity btw, that regression is, i'm confident, in my edit,not STD itself.
23:46 mncharity good night all &
23:47 meppl gute nacht
23:47 meppl good night
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