Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-03-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:45 literal hi
01:45 literal is this book still up-to-date? http://www.amazon.com/Perl-6-Parrot-Essentials-Second/dp/059600737X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204853877&sr=1-2
01:45 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/2mc43c
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02:03 mugwump literal: that book is good, and much of what is in there is still current
02:03 literal ok
02:03 mugwump the parrot stuff in there is getting out of date, but should still mostly work
02:03 mugwump just not current practice
02:03 literal do you know anything about this one? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1590598334/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance
02:03 mugwump there have been some design decisions; another edition is probably due once STD-6.0 finalizes IMHO
02:03 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/2kk7cq
02:04 mugwump no idea
02:04 mugwump wow, published this yes
02:05 mugwump year, even
02:05 literal yeah
02:05 mugwump I don't know the authors though
02:05 literal one other thing
02:05 mugwump maybe someone else here does ... I'm quite out of touch comparatively :)
02:05 literal are you still maintaining Lingua::Translate?
02:06 literal hasn't had a release in 3 years, I was wondering of writing a few patches for it
02:09 literal s/wondering/thinking/
02:09 mugwump Oh, sure
02:10 mugwump Someone asked for co-maint on it once, but nothing came of it
02:10 mugwump If you can make a new release I'll be happy to give you co-maint on it
02:10 literal awesome
02:11 mugwump you can clone git://utsl.gen.nz/Lingua-Translate if you like
02:11 literal ok
02:11 mugwump not exactly the tidiest history mind ;)
02:12 literal heh
02:12 mugwump I don't have a copy of the SysTrans software any more to test that part of it
02:13 literal would you consider this eligible for inclusion? http://search.cpan.org/~hinrik/Lingua-Translate-InterTran-0.04/lib/Lingua/Translate/InterTran.pm
02:13 lambdabot Title: Lingua::Translate::InterTran - A Lingua::Translate backend for InterTran. - sear ..., http://tinyurl.com/2ysps3
02:14 literal <-- hinrik
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02:14 mugwump oh, nice
02:16 mugwump that'll do, have co-maint and try not to break anything ;)
02:16 literal will do
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14:45 pugs_svnbot r20077 | putter++ | [redsix]: redsix is now the code, and redsix.rb a symlink 'hack to make emacs happier'.  Rather than the other way around.
14:45 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20077
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14:51 mncharity Sigh.  Fyi, r20077 has made svn unhappy.  Attempting cleanup.
14:55 mncharity WARNING - do not svn up to r20077 !
14:56 PerlJam unhappy how?
14:57 cognominal_ mncharity, found how to hook the yaml dumper. but apparently I need to tweak it
14:58 cognominal_ all I get so far is  rakudo --target=parse t.p6
14:58 cognominal_ ---
14:58 cognominal_ {
14:58 cognominal_ "VAR1" : !Perl6::Grammar { ... },
14:58 cognominal_ }
15:02 cognominal_ apparently I need a specail libsyck
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15:12 pugs_svnbot r20078 | putter++ | Yet another attempt at repairing svn after r20077.
15:12 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20078
15:14 pugs_svnbot r20079 | putter++ | Continuing r20077 cleanup: redsix is gone, now deleting redsix.rb.
15:14 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20079
15:16 mncharity Ok, if you svn'ed up after r20077 but before r20079, to unwedge you svn, do:   rm -rf misc/pX/Common/redsix; svn cleanup; svn up
15:16 mncharity *your
15:18 mncharity Anyone know what svn reflectors are running?  darcs, whatever?  Or by whom?  They may be wedged now.
15:22 mncharity Every once in a while, I have a flash of wondering if I'm being excessively paranoid - a moment of, well, not trusting, but of giving my tools the benefit of the doubt.  This error in judgment usually self corrects quite rapidly. :/
15:23 mncharity Sorry folks.
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15:23 mncharity cognominal_: hi.  sorry, distracted.
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15:25 mncharity re rakudo, you saw  misc/winter_jig/ast_rakudo ?
15:26 mncharity oh, if you got that far, nevermind.
15:30 mncharity PerlJam: svn up -r20077 both fails, and leaves the local svn copy broken - can't  svn cleanup, and can't svn rm --force the symlink file it's broken on.  The workaround is to  svn delete URL/path-to-file , bypassing the local copy entirely.
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15:31 mncharity *The workaround to fix the svn repository.
15:32 mncharity To fix the svn local filesystem if it's become thus wedged:  rm -rf misc/pX/Common/redsix; svn cleanup; svn up .
15:33 pmurias mncharity: hi
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15:34 pmurias what do the "fates" in STD5.pm refere to?
15:35 moritz_ re
15:35 mncharity cognominal_: I ran rakudo --target=parse (non-yaml) against pugs's t/spec/.  Using misc/winter_jig/ast_rakudo/parse_t_spec.t.  There more failures than I expected.  Which leaves me wondering,
15:37 avar yes the parser fails on all sorts of strange stuff
15:38 [particle] what does it leave you wondering? rakudo is far from complete
15:38 mncharity pmurias: re fates, my understanding is fuzzy, since STD_red skipped that part, but I believe it is how TimToady's "longest matching DFA engine" (for some reason the name keeps not sticking with me), after a successful matching path is found, tells all the regex parts which way to go (no search required - already done), as they are rerun for sideeffects.  or something like that.
15:38 [particle] and the pugs tests are not designed for partial implementations of perl 6
15:39 moritz_ avar: you're free to wonder why it fails once STD.pm runs
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15:39 mncharity re wondering, sorry, "interleave quick reply" wasn't, let's see...
15:41 mncharity there are several (well, lots) of rakudo tasks which might be interesting: () getting a feel for why the parses are failing, () fixing them, () getting yaml ast dumping working, () getting yaml dumping of pge match results working.
15:42 mncharity without having a feel for why the parses are failing (I haven't looked yet), I'm unclear on whether getting an ast dump of them working will be of immediate use or not.
15:42 mncharity I basically have no idea how much/little rakudo is parsing, compared with say kp6.
15:42 [particle] i'm not sure of that, either
15:43 [particle] i guess you could try running kp6 on t/spec
15:43 pmurias mncharity: kp6 dosn't parse expressions correctly
15:46 mncharity err, rephrase, I'm unsure whether the dialect rakudo parses is currently large enough, or includes the "right things", to permit throwing kp6-style "restricted dialect but still usable code" at it.
15:48 [particle] in many of the spec tests, there are directives to skip lines that rakudo can't parse
15:48 [particle] #?rakudo skip "parsefail"
15:48 mncharity eg, yes, I expect its operator precedence parser gives it much more real expressions than kp6 has.  but if, for silly example instance, it can't parse "class" of a class definition, then you couldn't use it to parse "class A {...}", and it wouldn't yet be of help as a frontend.
15:49 [particle] timtoady++ created t/spec/fudge* to handle this preprocessing
15:49 [particle] so far, kp6 hasn't taken advantage of fudge
15:49 [particle] rakudo works very well with classes
15:50 mncharity I've no idea whether the parse failures are of the (very common) form of "wierd little thing one really doesn't need in practice, but is used in the test file, blows out the test".  Or whether, to be silly again, scalars don't parse.
15:51 [particle] iirc named parameter support isn't all there yet
15:51 [particle] otherwise, most common things are parsed
15:51 mncharity If the latter, yaml ast dumping isn't of immediate use.  If the former, one simply "just don't *do* that"'s.
15:52 mncharity re "most common things are parsed", yay :)
15:53 mncharity An interesting test could be to run rakudo against the p6 files kp6 can parse.  Eg, it's test cases.  And see if any parsefail for reasons which are worrying.
15:54 mncharity v6/v6-KindaPerl6/t/kp6/*.t
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15:55 cognominal_ mncharity, I have submitted a patch that support part of the pair syntax
15:56 pasteling "[particle]" at 24.19.3.148 pasted "rakudo run against kp6 tests" (2091 lines, 100K) at http://sial.org/pbot/30459
15:57 [particle] everything fails to parse
15:57 mncharity looking...
15:57 [particle] however, most failures are likely related to a few root causes
15:57 mncharity cognominal_: progress :)
15:58 mncharity re few root causes, indeed.
15:59 cognominal_ I woud really like to use a grammr derived from rakudo to template a small web site.
16:00 mncharity :)
16:01 moritz_ cognominal_: actually I thought about a PGE based template system as well ;-)
16:02 moritz_ I'm currently updating http://dev.perl.org/perl6/ - any thoughts what's most urgent?
16:02 avar [particle]: I did that a few months ago and some of it parsed
16:02 avar [particle]: A lot of those are due to anonymous =begin/=end blocks. I submitted a patch to fix that but it was rejected
16:03 [particle] 1) i've been working on a pod6 grammar, kp6 could steal that
16:04 [particle] 2) i've been changing t/spec tests to pod6
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16:04 [particle] so, i think kp6 should migrate from pod5 to pod6, and it's definitely possible now
16:04 mncharity cognominal_: so I'm wondering if () get rakudo to parse the kp6 tests (or to only not parse for reasons which can be workaround when using it as a frontend), () add yaml match dumping to pge, to give the world access to pge, might be "more useful in themselves" short term goals than the ast yaml dump?  thoughts?
16:05 mncharity the first seem at least something vaguely like a prerequisite for then actually using ast yaml dumps as a frontend.
16:05 [particle] pod6 grammar: http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/languages/perl6/src/utils/perl6doc/grammar.pg
16:05 cognominal_ mncharity, I just mailed the author of the yaml dumper to make availaible his libsyck library tuned for parrot
16:05 [particle] what yaml dumper?
16:06 [particle] why modify libsyck?
16:06 [particle] i wrote a yaml dumper written in pir
16:06 [particle] it's just not finished yet
16:06 * mncharity goes to finish cleanup up from svn mess.
16:08 cognominal_ I am speaking of library/YAML/Dumper.pir which used a modified libsyck library
16:09 [particle] ok. i wrote that.
16:09 [particle] i copied it from parrot's Dumper.pir
16:09 [particle] never modified the author info
16:10 cognominal_ so what's the story about the modified libsyck?
16:11 [particle] i don't know what you're talking about
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16:11 pugs_svnbot r20080 | putter++ | Continuing r20077 cleanup: recover r20076's redsix.rb as redsix.
16:11 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20080
16:13 cognominal_ [particle], maybe you wrote yaml_dumper.pir
16:13 mncharity sigh.  and no time for actual work now.  ah well.
16:13 cognominal_ there may be two yaml parrot libraries
16:13 [particle] i wrote yaml_dumper.pir, YAML/Dumper.pir, YAML/Dumper/Default.pir and YAML/Dumper/Base.pir
16:14 [particle] all of which are compiled down to yaml_dumper.pbc
16:14 cognominal_ the library I used call libsyck
16:14 cognominal_ or so it says
16:15 cognominal_ ho, that the parser...
16:15 cognominal_ I am confused
16:16 mncharity To recap, svn co from r20077 until r20079, would leave a broken local svn filesystem.  Folks running, or knowing of, svn mirrors for pugs, please try to "svn up", to see if they got wedged.  Sorry for the hassle.  Thank you.
16:16 cognominal_ it gets confusing when navigating too much sources
16:17 mncharity It's sufficient to "svn up"(or whatever) in misc/pX/Common, if you don't want to affect the rest of your world.
16:17 mncharity bbl &
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16:18 [particle] yes, the parser may use libsyck
16:18 cognominal_ http://www.yamli.com/  # oops
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16:29 pugs_svnbot r20081 | moritz++ | [STD.pm] more perlhints
16:29 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20081
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17:10 mncharity two unexpected hours for hacking! :)
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17:29 pugs_svnbot r20082 | putter++ | redsix/redsix: now emacs modes and syntax highlighting "just work".
17:29 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20082
17:30 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20082 - Pugs - Trac
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17:50 pmichaud perl6: say True.perl();
17:51 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling perl on invalid object:$VAR1 = undef;␤␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 128␤       main::DISPATCH('undef', 'perl') called at - line 11␤]
17:51 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Bool::True␤]
17:51 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in find_method()␤current instr.: '_block10' pc 25 (EVAL_10:14)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 785 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1059 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:585)␤called from Sub
17:51 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1238 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir...
18:01 cognominal_ what is the perl6 equivalent of perl5 prefix <<    (here-document)
18:03 [particle] q:to:END
18:04 [particle] iirc
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18:04 [particle] nqp supports this syntax
18:04 cognominal_ yes, described in S02. tried to match here-document but it is described as here-doc :(
18:13 cognominal_ it supports it using PIR inlining
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18:25 cognominal_ I wonder what S02 means by "identifier extension", it does not grep in any other synopsis
18:25 pugs_svnbot r20083 | ruoso++ | [smop] implementing low-level scalar... not working yet... I am commiting in the hope that someone tries to understand why test/11_lowlevel_scalar.sm0p is not being match by sm0p/KP6sm0p.pl
18:25 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20083
18:25 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20083 - Pugs - Trac
18:27 ruoso mncharity, I'm using a KP6 grammar in sm0p, but it's failing to match a file and I can't see why... if you have some time, could you please take a look at the files referred above and see if you can see what I am missing?
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18:33 * ruoso home &
18:45 cognominal_ how can a capture refers to its parent?
18:46 pugs_svnbot r20084 | putter++ | [redsix] Blowing dust off redsix.  t/01-sanity almost passes.
18:46 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20084
18:46 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20084 - Pugs - Trac
18:47 mncharity ruoso: certainly, will do.  but i'm afraid it will be this now+8ish hours, or tomorrow.
18:48 mncharity cognominal_: parent?
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18:50 mncharity rides here.  bbl &
18:55 cognominal_ in a rakudo grammar, 2<3>  matches   I would like in the postcircumfix action to test if  the expression in the left is not a scalar litteral to rule out that case
18:56 cognominal_ hum
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18:57 cognominal_ well I could do it in the action that corresponds to the parent rule
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20:00 TimToady cognominal_: that should be driven by the role/class system, not the compiler
20:03 cognominal_ you mean it's ok to whine at execution versus compilation?
20:03 TimToady you can always whine at compilation if you can prove something will whine at run time
20:04 cognominal_ here, I can't?
20:04 TimToady or if you pragmatically ask for it to assume that certain things won't change
20:04 TimToady such as adding the Hash role to integers :)
20:04 cognominal_ ho boy
20:05 cognominal_ ok, obviously, I am still in a compiled language mindset
20:06 cognominal_ with better errors messages I can live with that.
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23:18 pugs_svnbot r20085 | buchetc++ | [t/spec] document coroutines
23:18 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20085
23:18 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20085 - Pugs - Trac
23:30 pugs_svnbot r20086 | gwern++ | Update HsJudy to build against the system's installation of Judy and not the version taking up space in thirdparty/
23:30 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20086
23:30 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20086 - Pugs - Trac
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23:36 pugs_svnbot r20087 | gwern++ | Mv all the Judy modules to Data.Array.Judy to better fit in the hierarchical modules.
23:36 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20087
23:36 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20087 - Pugs - Trac
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