Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-03-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:29 Mmi Hi.
00:29 Mmi When I turn on my laptop, the lights go on but it does not start up. I have to pull out the battery and cut off the power
00:29 Mmi then try again once reconnecting the battery or cord and sometimes then the BIOS beeps and it actually starts up.
00:29 Mmi But it is becoming more and more a rarity that it can actually go through and start.
00:30 Mmi Any ideas what the problem might be?
00:32 Mmi Are there any computer mechanics about?
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00:33 pugs_svnbot r20150 | putter++ | [elf_a] A start at sanity/03-equal.t.
00:33 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20150
00:33 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20150 - Pugs - Trac
00:34 Mmi I don't understand how this network can have so many people logged in with so few people ever delivering any form of intelligence.
00:34 Mmi Is this a bot-net?
00:35 mncharity good night all &
00:49 spinclad Mmi: wrong channel.  why on earth do you imagine a channel devoted to Perl 6 would be helpful?
00:49 Mmi spinclad, Good computer expertise.
00:50 Mmi spinclad, To like Perl 6 is to love computers.
00:50 [particle] we're mostly a bunch of linguists
00:50 [particle] and software != hardware
00:50 spinclad your problem is way off topic, and not of interest.
00:51 [particle] want to help improve perl 6?
00:51 spinclad rather, to like computers is to love Perl 6
00:52 spinclad anyway, my suggestion would be to cut the power and try again.  if that fails, try again.
00:54 spinclad perhaps your BIOS is using an outdated version of Perl 6
00:54 spinclad you may need to upgrade
00:55 Mmi actually, it makes no difference if i shut it down completely or if i am just attempting to resume from hibernation.
00:55 spinclad first, check out a development revision from https://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk and http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs
00:56 lambdabot Title: Revision 26516: /trunk
00:56 spinclad recompile, install in your BIOS and presto, all better.
00:59 spinclad free advice and well worth every penny!
01:08 Mmi i am afraid if i turn it off now i will never be able to start it up again.
01:08 Mmi it took me about 10 tries this time.
01:09 spinclad well, if it doesn't start again your problem is solved.  no need to fear any longer.
01:09 Mmi actually, there are quite a lot of references via google when i search 'laptop not starting'.
01:09 Mmi it is a fairly common problem it seems.
01:10 spinclad good.  anything else?  want to help with Perl 6?
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01:34 eternaleye <Mmi> I don't understand how this network can have so many people logged in with so few people ever delivering any form of intelligence.
01:34 eternaleye [10:54] <Mmi> Is this a bot-net?
01:35 eternaleye Gah, wrong channel. Trying to show the funniness elsewhere
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02:22 Mmi the margin of profit on electronics these days must be very high.
02:22 Mmi the efficiency of manufacture in china is most exceptional.
02:23 Mmi i am tired of paying premium prices for cheap chinese manufacturing.
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12:05 moritz_ re
12:20 moritz_ happy easter!
12:21 moritz_ I just deleted some spam from the IRC logs
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13:05 spinclad felices pascuas!
13:06 spinclad (and moritz_++)
13:08 allbery_b purim sameach! :p
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16:03 lichtkind cant help but ionce i heard of things like @a[-1] in perl 6 as ordinary slice
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16:54 pugs_svnbot r20151 | putter++ | [STD_red] try longest tokens first.  So && isnt parsed as & .
16:54 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20151
16:54 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20151 - Pugs - Trac
16:57 pugs_svnbot r20152 | putter++ | [STD_red] Tweak If, Decl, and string emit.  Fake use().  A couple of t sanity tests pass.
16:57 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20152
16:57 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20152 - Pugs - Trac
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17:47 mncharity /me reminds myself: "the objective of elf_a/b is not to pass t/, but to be useful&interesting enough that others work on it".  It's a social project, not yet one more p6 implementation bootstrap.
17:48 mncharity s/bootstrap/spin-up/
17:48 mncharity leaving STD...
17:49 mncharity TimToady: re "but since I'm really the only one running it, that's okay :)",
17:49 mncharity (apropos STD.pm)
17:53 mncharity I am running it both directly and indirectly.  Whenever I hit parse fail in elf, which means in STD_red, which happens a lot, if it is in the regions where I think of STD5 as having a chance to work, basically EXPR, checking STD5 is a first step.  Right next to reading STD.pm to see what _should_ be happening.  Before even looking at STD_red to
17:55 mncharity see what might be happening.  And indirectly.  Because STD_red is simply a hand copy of STD.pm into a more directly executable form.  Skipping mainly just @fate, due to its complexity and "known to not yet be working"-ness.
17:55 mncharity So STD.pm is in rather heavy use.
17:56 mncharity I haven't been touching it directly, because it seems to be tightly entwined with your thought and development processes.
17:58 mncharity And because my own inclination would be to alter it rather radically.  So everything I would change about it, ripping out non-code clutter, isolating code from regexs, moving from "this is a p6 grammar" to "this is a declarative specification of a p6 grammar", and thus to metaprogramming the whole thing, all this is inconsistent with STD.pm's current usage,
17:58 mncharity which is to help you put together a working grammar.
17:59 mncharity (people with line-to-long lossage can see the log)
18:01 mncharity But it's my belief STD.pm is _the_ bottleneck on Perl 6 development.  It was a year ago when yet_another_regex_engine was looking for a grammar to run.  Still is.
18:02 mncharity So *anything* I can do to help get us a working grammar, please just ask.  And not be at all reticent(sp?) about it. :)
18:05 mncharity From grammar follows parser, follows ast and IR, follows emitting to p5 etal.  We've walked the path downstream of the parser many times.  I went to misc/old_pugs_perl5_backend/P​IL-Run/lib/PIL/Run/PrimP5.pm looking for use() code for elf.
18:06 mncharity We *just* *need* *a* *fribbling* *parser*.  :)
18:07 mncharity So anyone who cares about making Perl 6 exist, should be sending TimToady a fruitcake with a little note saying "Anything I can do to help with STD, please just let me know."
18:07 mncharity Every Tuesday.
18:09 mncharity because STD looks like our currently best shot at getting one.
18:11 mncharity doesn't even have to be DFA.  maybe backtracking would be easier to get working to start with.  just, anything.
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18:30 mncharity perhaps the two characteristics a parser project needs to have is to be usable now, and to be clearly converging towards "realness / spec-ness / this is really on the mainline development path leading to P6 and not just another dead end".
18:31 mncharity STD_red is maybe almost "usable", and inherits the second bit from STD.pm.  But other things might have this shape.
18:32 mncharity Like a STD5 become usable, of course.  But perhaps others as well.
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19:13 pugs_svnbot r20153 | putter++ | [elf_a] Added multiple file compilation, and an empty prelude.
19:13 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20153
19:13 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20153 - Pugs - Trac
19:31 pugs_svnbot r20154 | putter++ | [elf_b] says "hi".
19:31 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20154
19:31 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20154 - Pugs - Trac
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20:37 pmurias mncharity: is a fruitcake diet healthy?
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20:54 mncharity lol :)
20:54 mncharity probably not.
20:54 mncharity "healthy delectable food of your choice"?
20:56 mncharity does Moose have a root Object class?   trying to figure out where to drop the prelude.
20:57 [particle1 it's Moose::Object
20:57 mncharity thanks :)
20:57 [particle] http://search.cpan.org/~stevan/​Moose-0.40/lib/Moose/Object.pm
20:57 lambdabot Title: Moose::Object - The base object for Moose - search.cpan.org
20:58 mncharity so the next question is,
20:59 mncharity I fuzzily remember there was some magic p5 GLOBAL place where one could define visible-everywhere sub()s.  ??
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21:00 allbery_b that had to do with perl5 ithreads
21:00 allbery_b IIRC
21:00 allbery_b unless you're thinking of package UNIVERSAL which acts like a universal base class
21:00 [particle] UNIVERSAL::
21:01 mncharity re base class, no, sub rather than method lookup.  re UNIVERSAL, looking...
21:02 pmurias mncharity: a use Prelude; is a more human hack
21:02 pmurias humane
21:03 mncharity no, not UNIVERSAL I don't think.  it was something like a glob where you could stuff, say, a  sub substr2 {...}, and have substr2() visible everywhere (just like substr()).
21:04 [particle] main:: ?
21:04 mncharity re 'use Prelude;', yeah.  :/  So far the output of compilation has the property that it's entirely self contained... oh, it still could.  hmm...
21:05 mncharity re main::, looking...
21:06 mncharity doesn't seem to be main:  perl -we 'sub main::f{3};package Foo; print f();'  Undefined subroutine &Foo::f
21:06 allbery_b no, I didn't think so.  I don't think there is such a thing.  but, hm, lemme try something
21:06 [particle] tr/{}/()/
21:07 lumi perl -we 'sub ::f{3}; package Foo; print f();'
21:07 lumi Eck
21:07 lumi Not that either, anyway
21:08 pmurias mncharity: the output isn't, say is missing
21:08 allbery_b feh.  nope, CORE doesn't work that way either
21:08 b_jonas there was a node about that
21:08 mncharity re Prelude, could inline a package Prelude, then poke INC or whatever so it thinks its already loaded.  then can "use Prelude" everywhere, but compiled code remains without external dependencies.
21:08 b_jonas I'll search it, a moment
21:08 b_jonas but I think the result was that there's no way to do it
21:09 [particle] >perl -we "Foo::bar(123); package Foo; sub bar { &::baz } package main; sub baz { print @_ } "
21:09 [particle] 123
21:09 [particle] or "sub bar ::baz(@_)" if you prefer
21:09 pmurias mncharity: is self containes a big feature?
21:10 [particle] "sub bar { ::baz(@_) }" that is
21:10 mncharity pmurias: re "the output isn't, say is missing", ?
21:10 mncharity re ::baz, oh, neat, trying...
21:11 b_jonas mncharity: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=388819
21:11 lambdabot Title: Creating a global function
21:13 mncharity re big feature?, bootstrap is hard, and gets even harder if I had you X, and X may or may not stop working at any time depending on how remote files continue to evolve.  with self contained, I give you a version of elf_b, which will need to eventually start capturing its own copy of STD_red (for the same reason), and you know it will keep working, regardless of what happens elsewhere.
21:14 mncharity you no longer need to worry about how it was created, or whether it happens to have a #!perl at top or not.
21:14 mncharity re global, looking...
21:14 pmurias prelude.pl is missing from the repo
21:16 mncharity oops, sorry, fixing
21:17 pmurias i think you should be using $Code_say instead of &say anyway
21:17 pugs_svnbot r20155 | putter++ | [elf_a] add missing prelude.pl.
21:17 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20155
21:17 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20155 - Pugs - Trac
21:18 pmurias if you want lexical subroutines that is
21:18 mncharity hmm, that has a bogus package Moose;  in it.
21:19 mncharity ok, so  UNIVERSAL::AUTOLOAD (works in 5.10?); main ::baz; and "you're asking the wrong question - it should be lexical".
21:21 mncharity with 3, the prelude could be  our $c_say = sub{...}; and appear only once.
21:24 pmurias yes
21:27 mncharity ok, cleaning up to do a checkin with completely kludged say(), then... lexicals.
21:30 pugs_svnbot r20156 | putter++ | [elf] Start of support for subs, classes, and method calls.
21:30 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20156
21:30 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20156 - Pugs - Trac
21:31 mncharity oops, elf_b_src/main.pl should be a method, not a sub.  hmm...
21:42 pugs_svnbot r20157 | putter++ | [elf_a] Start of support for method decls.
21:42 pugs_svnbot r20157 | putter++ | [elf_b] main.pl now uses a method main().
21:42 pugs_svnbot r20157 | putter++ | [STD_red] Provide a Match for method_def.
21:42 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20157
21:42 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20157 - Pugs - Trac
21:42 mncharity btw, thanks everyone.
21:42 mncharity especially for the "you are barking up the wrong tree". :)
21:48 mncharity hmm, /me wonders if trying to get function namespaces to work right is out of scope for the elf_a backend.  the question is "is this a minimally required thing to make p6 writing of elf_b comfortable".
21:49 mncharity answer no.  then the only question is given that absent GLOBAL::CORE or somesuch, if one has to hack anyway, which direction to hack in.
21:51 b_jonas still those elves
21:52 mncharity given that methods work, perhaps could live with a "flat single global namespace" for functions.  eeww.  would mean no helper sub... no, my $s = sub{}; should work.  $s.() ... dunno.
21:52 mncharity ? :)
21:53 pmurias what's wrong with subs as $Code_foo ?
21:55 mncharity {pkg A; my $c_f=...; }  {pkg A; ... no f...},
21:58 mncharity in ruby lexicals and method calls look the same, so you can fudge one to the other.  but p5, it may be that it requires real emitter groveling over the ir.
21:59 mncharity "if it requires real work, it hopefully doesn't belong in elf_a".  because you want to be writing it in p6.
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22:12 pugs_svnbot r20158 | putter++ | [elf_a] All sub()s appear in package main, regardless of where they are defined.  But method()s do the right thing.  And my $x = sub(){}; $x.(); now works.
22:12 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20158
22:12 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20158 - Pugs - Trac
22:18 mncharity ++... allbery_b and lumi and b_jonas to search out the path originally envisioned, and the pain therein.  [particle] to suggest a different path.  pmurias to ask the right questions and provide the focus needed to choose that path.  /me to write just <10 lines of code.
22:19 mncharity yay :P
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22:20 mncharity hmm, what next...
22:25 mncharity no way to use arrays and hashes at the moment.  maybe that, then teaching elf_b_create.pl to write the p6 for the IR nodes.  then get elf_b using STD_red.
22:26 mncharity i wonder if there's an autobox module which provides ->push() etc...
22:27 wolverian autobox::Core
22:27 wolverian and Moose::Autobox...
22:28 mncharity oh, wizzy.  maybe this won't be too painful...
22:54 pugs_svnbot r20159 | putter++ | [elf_a] Start of support for arrays.  "my $x = [2,3,4]; say $x.[1]; $x.push(6);" works.
22:54 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20159
22:54 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20159 - Pugs - Trac
23:06 pugs_svnbot r20160 | putter++ | [elf_a] Start of hash support. "my $h = {3,4,5,6}; say $h.{5}" works.
23:06 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20160
23:06 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20160 - Pugs - Trac
23:07 wolverian whoot, nice work
23:30 mncharity looks like infix:= wasn't working because YAML::Syck::Load was taking  str: =   and building 'str'=>'str'.  odd, really odd.
23:30 pugs_svnbot r20161 | putter++ | [elf_a] infix:= no longer mutates into infix:str (seems to be a YAML::Syck::Load bug).  Fixed Match.to (no longer reports .from).  Fixed comment handling for .config files.
23:30 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20161
23:30 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20161 - Pugs - Trac
23:32 mncharity err, taking  str: "=" .  and str: '='  behaved the same.
23:33 mncharity infix:str now emits as lhs = rhs.  sigh.  but works :)
23:33 mncharity hmm
23:36 mncharity doh
23:36 pugs_svnbot r20162 | putter++ | [elf_a] Moved infix:= workaround from emit_p5 to ast_handlers.
23:36 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20162
23:36 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20162 - Pugs - Trac
23:42 mncharity perl -MYAML::Syck -MData::Dumper -we 'print Data::Dumper::Dumper(YAML::Syck::Load("---\nstr: \"=\"\n"));' $VAR1 = {'str' => 'str' };   v5.10.0  YAML::Syck 1.04
23:42 mncharity what was that Bill the Cat expression?
23:44 mncharity wp says "Thbbbt!".  I thought there was one starting with a P.  The coughing up hairball noise. :)
23:45 mncharity curiously, '=' and bare = (vs "=") seem to work
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23:48 mncharity dinner &
23:52 BinGOs joined #perl6
23:54 mncharity runtime on "say 3" is up 1 sec over earlier to 1.4 sec. :/  wonder why.

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