Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-03-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:16 pugs_svnbot r20174 | lwall++ | [STD] removed whatever token which duped term:sym<*>
01:16 pugs_svnbot r20174 | lwall++ | various warning suppressions and lexer simplifications
01:16 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20174
01:16 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20174 - Pugs - Trac
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02:51 meppl good night
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05:21 syle request, can we keep c type syntax, perl6 is looking like ruby and other crap
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05:22 syle its never been hard to code perl having c/c++ background , now code is looking like some tcl language
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06:05 Khisanth that doesn't sound like a very compelling reason
06:13 spinclad oh, hardly like tcl.  believe me, i know from tcl.
06:15 spinclad (though Coke, over on #parrot, knows far better than me.)
06:29 syle what are thoughts on parallel computing?
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11:20 pmurias mncharity: hi
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11:24 pmurias there seems to be a bug or a at  least strangeness with the Match objects dumped by STD_red_run
11:24 pmurias the str field referes to the part of the string left instead of the orginal string
11:26 pmurias implemented the string sharing code but i didn't commit it as it makes no sense with the current design
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13:35 cognominal_ TimToady:  %a = { key => @a }   # is a array (or hash) as a value is allowed in a hash composer? I suppose that in that position we don't expand it.
13:46 ruoso cognominal_, I think it's a matter of precedence, and who enforces the context... if it's the pair who enforces item precedence on the array, or the array which is expanded before that...
13:47 ruoso I would argue that => is of a higher precedence, and enforces item context on the array
13:47 ruoso s/item precedence/item context/
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14:08 alester Who is Mitchell?
14:08 alester http://www.rakudo.org/2008/03/perl-6-design-notes-for-19-mar.html
14:08 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 Design Notes for 19 March 2008 - Rakudo.org
14:12 pmurias mncharity
14:13 pmurias Mitchell N Charity, known in commit messages as putter
14:17 alester Never heard of him.
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14:26 spinclad he's working on 'elf' (another bootstrap project, p6 to p5/ruby, STD parser to a commonish AST) and project management of this herd of cats
14:27 spinclad hang around here and you'll meet soon enough
14:58 alester ok
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17:35 mncharity pmurias: hi
17:36 mncharity the str field refers to the part of the string matched by the Match, no?
17:37 mncharity the alternative is, at least in yaml land, to have an on_str field, which points to the original string, with yaml taking care of making that a reference rather than a copy, and Match on the p5 side then recreating str, either when created or on demand.
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17:39 mncharity for --dump5, the simplest thing might be to just do  my $on_str = ...;   match(...$on_str...etc...);
17:40 mncharity then Match under elf_a and elf_b would have to be set up to derive str from on_str plu from and to.
17:48 mncharity I may have just missed it, but what are we buying?  ie, what is the need (reducing --dump5 size?  is it a problem?); how much does the solution address it? (ie, what is the payoff - eg, 40x size of source -> 20x?).
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17:53 mncharity saw a nifty talk yesterday on programming using a continuous spacial fields abstraction over meshes (sensors, robots, articulators, whatever).  no link. :/  author of goo (language).  so much to do...
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18:05 pmurias mncharity: already coded that for --dump5
18:06 pmurias i think the .str should refere to the whole string matched on
18:06 pmurias * refer
18:06 pmurias re coded, the dump not the reading in
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18:09 pmurias it's possible to extract the part the string matched on using .from and .to
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20:56 diakopter heh
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21:34 mncharity lol
21:34 pugs_svnbot r20175 | putter++ | [elf] elf_b can now create and describe IR trees.
21:34 pugs_svnbot r20175 | putter++ | [STD_red] bugfix r20172 sigil escaping.
21:34 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20175
21:34 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20175 - Pugs - Trac
21:40 mncharity elf_b next step is ir -> emit_p5.  when that works, we'll technically have a backend bootstrap - a compiler demonstrably capable of compiling its own backend (ie, everything but STD_red).
21:43 mncharity elf_b is tightly tied to elf_a.  so the step after that may be to use elf_a/b (while continuing to tweak them), to create elf_c, also a bootstrapped backend, but standalone and free of the "derived from elf_a" constraints and scary magic.
21:49 mncharity longterm question: does anyone know of a language which gives useful line numbers despite having macros?  one basically wants the whole macro expansion history, for every character position, available when describing errors.
21:51 b_jonas mncharity: uh, the full macro expansion history? interesting
21:51 b_jonas that would mean a quadratic stack trace
21:51 b_jonas like
21:52 b_jonas died: foo problem (FooException)
21:52 b_jonas from functoin1 prog.ext line 1 char 2 (expanded from line 3 char 4, line 5 char 6, ...)
21:52 b_jonas called from function2 ...
21:52 b_jonas that would be huge
21:53 mncharity yes
21:53 b_jonas no, I don't know of anything like that
21:53 b_jonas also, ask for implementation instead of language
21:54 b_jonas because e.g. scheme implementations differ very much in how good error messages they give
21:54 b_jonas (though they differ greatly in other things too, but still)
21:54 mncharity but otherwise  if foo($x.bar) {} , where statement_control:if and foo are macros, easily results in macro expanded p6 code, and then in compiled runtime code, where the connection between some error and that line is... obscure.
21:55 mncharity re implementation, good point
21:55 b_jonas well, you could easily supress "system" libraries
21:56 b_jonas even if that would actually mean gaps in the expansion line
21:56 b_jonas that's not confusing for you can think macros in system libraries are primitives
21:56 b_jonas obviously, they would be supressed only unless you set a certain compiler option
21:57 b_jonas perhaps ask on #scheme or #lisp
21:58 b_jonas because those are the languages that have macros
21:58 b_jonas apart from the C preprocessor
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21:58 mncharity the p6 prelude is rather unprivileged.  so what you are describing is the ability to elide info from particular modules.  which is a good idea, but doesn't make the issue go away...
21:59 b_jonas yep
21:59 b_jonas by "system", I meant like the "system" headers in C
21:59 b_jonas so whatever claims itself to be system
21:59 b_jonas and bug-free
21:59 mncharity re scheme/lisp, yeah, and check on what dylan ended up doing.  2nd(?) meeting of the Boston Lisp Users Group on Monday. :)
22:00 b_jonas what's the connection between dyland and boston list users group?
22:00 b_jonas s/dyland/dylan/
22:01 b_jonas which is dylan btw? is that that other language with builtin syntax for coroutine-based iterators?
22:01 mncharity scheme/lisp ~~ dylan, and BLUG is an opportunity to ask a bunch of scheme/CL/dylan folks, including several implementers, for thoughts.
22:01 mncharity re  dylan?,
22:02 mncharity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_programming_language
22:02 lambdabot Title: Dylan (programming language) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
22:03 b_jonas that's not the one I was thinking than
22:03 b_jonas what language was that then?
22:03 b_jonas wait, it might be the same
22:04 b_jonas ah, I remember this
22:04 b_jonas I started to read the reference manual but stopped soon because it's so dry as a standard
22:04 b_jonas even though I like reference manuals
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22:06 b_jonas I can't follow all these languages
22:08 b_jonas but yes, dylan has iterator syntax too
22:08 b_jonas just like python and ruby
22:09 b_jonas smalltalk++ for popularizing iterators
22:11 mncharity dylan was sort of an attempt to be CL/scheme-next-generation, and be java (in the 'next big-time computing language') sense of 'be java'.  so it has a lot of carefully thought about and documented ideas.  so it can be a useful thing to check when considering how to do X where X is something lispish.
22:22 b_jonas I see
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22:52 pugs_svnbot r20176 | putter++ | [elf_b] Copy elf_a's emit_p5.config, for hand translation into p6.
22:52 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20176
22:52 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20176 - Pugs - Trac
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