Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-04-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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02:18 mncharity /me wonders what  my Int Num f() {};   means (to choose two random fulltypename's).
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02:22 [particle1 i can't see how that will parse
02:24 [particle] my Int of Num f() {}; will parse, but fail in the semantic analyzer, i suspect
02:24 [particle] see fulltypename in http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/STD.pm
02:25 mncharity scope_declarator:my -> scoped -> <fulltypename>* <routine_declarator>
02:25 mncharity it appears and intentional construct
02:26 [particle] token scope_declarator:my       { <sym> <scoped> {*} }          #= my
02:26 mncharity yes
02:26 [particle] ah, i see it now.
02:26 [particle] that should likely be a ?
02:27 mncharity ah.  hmm.
02:27 [particle] feel free to update. it'll get reverted if you're wrong
02:27 mncharity though isn't  my Dog Animal $x;  valid?
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02:28 mncharity or, um,   my Dog HeatSource $fido;
02:28 [particle] i'll have to check the synopsis to be sure.
02:28 [particle] imo it leads to ambiguity
02:28 [particle] my Dog|Heatsource $fido; might work
02:29 [particle] but my Array of Int Array of Num $x; is ambiguous
02:29 [particle] or more simply my Array of Int Num
02:30 [particle] i'm just not sure what multiple typenames allow you to do that it would be valid
02:30 mncharity re changing STD.pm, I don't.  On the model that I am usual confused, and TT's few mistakes are of a recognizable flavor (non-local inconsistency), of which this case isn't.
02:31 mncharity my *very* fuzzy recollection is they might be additional constraints.  Eg, $fido can't be a cold dog.
02:32 mncharity but that opinion plus five cents will get you... five cents.
02:33 mncharity err, oops.  my example should have been   my Int Num sub f() {};
02:36 mncharity i'm puzzling over whether the IR for sub declaration needs a variable node hanging off it, to handle the details of that &f .
02:38 mncharity ah well.  inline typenames for now, refactor later.
02:45 mncharity TimToady: pluralized and scoped have a "'(' <signature> ')' <trait>*".  could that be made a subrule?
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02:54 mncharity TimToady: variable_decl special cases '=' and '.='.  Does that mean  my Foo $x += 3; is invalid?  for all "+=" ops other than = and .= ?
02:58 mncharity /me wonders what to call the "scope typenames plurality" tuple, since its showing up in a lot of decls.  eg, DeclareSub     scope typenames plurality ident multisig traits block
03:04 mncharity anyone have an opinion on whether to pull out some infix:foos as IR nodes?  And which?  Bind and Assign being two candidates.  an argument being it might simplify IR tree analysis.  but I'm not sure it actually does... might be better off with a is_bind? attribute on an Apply("infix:=",...) node.
03:05 mncharity s/attribute/annotation/
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03:19 meppl good night
03:27 mncharity good night
03:28 mncharity TimToady: in param_var, it seems like <?{ $<sigil> eq '&' }> <?ident> :: <ident=sublongname> eats and discards an ident?
03:33 * ingy is bored. know any good projects I can work on?
03:34 mncharity elf! :)
03:35 ingy happy fool's day, #perl6!
03:36 mncharity <render in deep att-tv-commercial voice>"Have you ever wanted to write a p6 backend?  A compiler?  A prelude?  _You will._"</>
03:36 mncharity doh
03:36 mncharity :)
03:37 mncharity almost made it.  only 1/2 hour left.  drat.
03:41 pugs_svnbot r20206 | putter++ | elf_d_src/Notes.txt: Start of an IRx1 "IR experimental 1" draft.
03:41 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20206
03:41 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20206 - Pugs - Trac
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04:48 pugs_svnbot r20207 | putter++ | [elf_c] Some refactoring work.
04:48 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20207
04:48 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20207 - Pugs - Trac
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11:45 JDlugosz Hello world
11:47 JDlugosz Hello world
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15:40 allbery_b whoa.  it's audrey!  (on list)
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17:33 pugs_svnbot r20208 | lwall++ | [STD] inside of () and [] should be semilist, not statementlist
17:33 pugs_svnbot r20208 | lwall++ | [Cursor5] s:g/warn/print STDERR/ because warn makes debugger too verbose
17:33 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20208
17:33 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20208 - Pugs - Trac
17:50 [particle] "i don't need a jet to get jet lagged" sounds more like a dylan quote than a wall quote.
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18:14 pugs_svnbot r20209 | putter++ | [elf_c] Started adding use().  Refactoring towards runtime-swappable compilers.
18:14 pugs_svnbot r20209 | putter++ | ../elf_c -x -o ../elf_c1 ElfC.pm  now works.
18:14 pugs_svnbot r20209 | putter++ | elf_c can no longer be compiled by elf_b, only by itself.
18:14 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20209
18:14 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20209 - Pugs - Trac
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19:09 mncharity so quiet
19:09 nwc10 just the tumbleweed^Wcommits rolling through
19:11 mncharity :)
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19:17 pmichaud which is better, lots of discussion and no commits, or vice-versa?  ;-)
19:17 nwc10 light is better than heat
19:21 mncharity lol #re which is better
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19:21 mncharity hi ruoso
19:21 ruoso hi mncharity
19:22 mncharity /me ponders 'light is better than heat'
19:23 nwc10 long mailing list threads can end up being referred to as "more heat than light'
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19:23 nwc10 the sort that end up as a lot of arguments, and little or no progress
19:23 mncharity right
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19:27 pmurias mncharity: Apply can be replaced by Call
19:28 mncharity in elf_d's IRx1?
19:28 pmurias yes
19:29 mncharity currently Apply is function application, Call is method call.
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19:30 pmurias function application is also method call
19:30 mncharity nod
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19:31 pmurias the hard part is the method name
19:31 mncharity err, un-nod.  I'm unclear.
19:31 mncharity I don't have a clear concept of how methods and subs are different.
19:32 mncharity /me goes to read Snn...
19:33 mncharity http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/S06.html
19:33 lambdabot Title: S06
19:33 pmurias &foo(123) is &foo."postcircumfixfix:<( )>"(123)
19:34 pmurias &foo(123) is &foo.postcircumfixfix:<( )>(123)
19:35 mncharity really?
19:35 pmurias yes
19:36 mncharity spec?
19:37 pmurias indirectly
19:37 pmurias grep for  postcircumfix:<( )>
19:37 pmurias and .postcircumfix:<[ ]>
19:38 pmurias shower&
19:40 mncharity http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/ "Google Search the Synopses" is broken :(
19:40 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
19:40 pmurias (not yet) ;)
19:40 pmurias mncharity: i use ack
19:40 mncharity ack?
19:40 alester ack!
19:40 alester http://petdance.com/ack/
19:40 lambdabot Title: ack -- better than grep, a power search tool for programmers
19:40 alester A standard tool for Parrot folks.
19:41 * [particle] eats ack for breakfast
19:41 pmurias alester: is it especialy needed for parrot work?
19:41 alester It's very helpful.
19:41 alester most Parrot people use it.
19:42 [particle] c code, perl code, pir code. ack helps me search only the files i'm interested in inside the parrot repo
19:42 mncharity so grep-like.  but... oh, are the Snn in the pugs tree?
19:42 pmurias i just use as a grep with perl5 syntax
19:42 [particle] svn co http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk
19:42 lambdabot Title: Revision 14538: /doc/trunk
19:43 mncharity ahhhh
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19:44 mncharity thanks! :)
19:47 TimToady mncharity: <?ident> is just shorthand for <?before <ident> > there, I think
19:48 TimToady and yes, all the declarative syntax could probably use a going over
19:49 TimToady = and .= are pseudoassignment forms slurped by declrators.  my $x += 1 parses as (my $x) += 1 instead
19:51 TimToady in general, assignops are mutators that make little sense on a new variable
19:52 mncharity ok
19:53 [particle] TimToady: did you see yesterday's comments on <fulltypename>* ?
19:58 TimToady 0 or more is correct
19:59 TimToady it's not ambiguous insofar as the parser can know which identifiers are predeclared as typenames
19:59 rindolf Hi all!
19:59 rindolf TimToady: (and everyone) You may wish to review http://www.shlomifish.org/same-as-perl.html before I publish it.
19:59 TimToady phone &
20:00 mncharity pmurias: While S02 says "The C<Callable> role implies the ability to support C<< postcircumfix:<( )> >>.", it also talks of function calls without a pcf().  eg, 'say 3'.  Perhaps 'say 3' should be interpreted 'pcf()(say,3)' or 'say.pcf()(3)'.  But that's not clear to me.
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20:09 mncharity 'say(3)' and 'say.(3)' don't parse using postcircumfix.  though that's not definitive, as, for instance, neither does 'while', but one could argue the parser should emit  'statement_control:while(...)' and the IR shouldn't have a While or Loop node.
20:10 mncharity s/neither does 'while'/'while' is parsed specially/
20:10 mncharity s/specially/specifically/
20:15 mncharity hmm.  Sub/Method/Macro decl could be collapsed into a RoutineDecl.  and Call/Apply/MacroApply collapsed into a Call.  RoutineDecl would still need a flag distinguishing them, so it's not really a collapse, just a refactoring.
20:16 mncharity Call could be a real collapse.
20:17 mncharity but I'm still unclear on the connection between Call and postcircumfix:<( )>, and if they are distinct, whether function application and method call are also distinct, in which case Call is just a refactoring as well.
20:19 mncharity And a potentially less interesting one.
20:20 mncharity (if emitters/analysis generally wishes to treat the cases differently)
20:21 mncharity /me puzzled.  thoughts?
20:23 mncharity rindolf is a Llama?
20:26 pmurias mncharity: pcf = ?
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20:26 mncharity postcircumfix
20:29 Juerd Does Perl 6 have a way to indicate that of a certain set of parameters, only one may be given?
20:29 Juerd e.g. :html or :text or :xhtml or :yaml
20:29 Juerd Or does it have to be :type<htlm>, :type<text>, :type<xhtml>, :type<yaml> (lots of typing)
20:29 mncharity so there are two optional parameters, and only one may be set?  don't know of such.
20:30 Juerd Yes
20:30 pmurias TimToady: could you clarify the corespondence between function application and postcircumfix:<( )>?
20:32 mncharity assert [$html,$text,$xhtml,$yaml].count_defined == 1  ;)
20:32 mncharity assert_only_one_defined $html,$text,$xhtml,$yaml;
20:33 mncharity s/only/exactly
20:57 TimToady Juerd: just use two different multi sigs
20:57 Juerd TimToady: Oh, of course!
20:57 Juerd TimToady: Makes me happy ):
20:57 Juerd Eh
20:58 Juerd :)
20:58 Juerd Smileys should have parity
20:58 Juerd and error correction
21:00 TimToady pmurias: I can't clarify it unless I know what the question is :)
21:03 pmurias TimToady: is &foo.postcircumfix(...) equivalent to &foo(...)
21:04 pmurias ?
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21:06 spx2 hello
21:06 Juerd IIRC, it's &foo.postcircumfix:«( )»(...)
21:06 Juerd Hi
21:06 spx2 how is perl6 doing today ?
21:06 Juerd spx2: Rakudo got IO.
21:07 spx2 Juerd: cool !
21:07 Juerd So I guess Perl 6 is happy.
21:07 spx2 Juerd: you mean all packages in IO namespace ?
21:07 spx2 Juerd: or just "generic" IO ?
21:09 TimToady it is likely that the arguments to &foo.postcircumfix:«( )»(...) would be the same as the arguments to &foo.(...)
21:10 Juerd spx2: Simple IO
21:10 TimToady though that doesn't necessarily generalize to other postcircumfixes
21:10 spx2 Juerd: ok thanks
21:10 Juerd TimToady: I see recursion ;)
21:10 TimToady for instance, there might be some remapping from .[] to .postcircumfix:<[ ]>()
21:11 TimToady yes, well, the buck stops somewhere in there...
21:13 TimToady in general, the concept of .postcircumfix:<( )> as a standalone operator is rather useless
21:15 mncharity class A { sub f($obj;$y){} }; A.new.f(3)   # valid?
21:16 TimToady I presume you meant : there, but no in any case
21:16 TimToady subs are not visible through the single dispatcher
21:17 mncharity re meant, yes.  re rest, ah, ok.
21:17 TimToady and the colon is probably illegal in an ordinary sub declaration
21:18 spx2 may I ask a question ?
21:18 TimToady no
21:18 spx2 is there a page describing how perl6 funds are distributed ?
21:18 spx2 the funds from donations
21:18 spx2 I am interested in seeing the priorities of the short-term goals etc
21:18 spx2 is that written somewhere online ?
21:19 pmichaud spx2:  depends on what you mean by "perl6 funds"
21:20 spx2 pmichaud: the funds raised by donations
21:20 pmichaud I don't think those are tied specifically to "Perl 6"
21:20 spx2 pmichaud: what do you understand by perl6 funds and what possible meanings would you find for that expression ?
21:20 pmichaud i.e., those are just "perl funds"
21:20 pmichaud or, better still, simply "TPF donations".
21:21 pmichaud (note:  I'm not an officer or even particularly knowledgeable about any of this, so take everything I say with a good size chunk of salt.)
21:21 spx2 pmichaud: ok , I'm interested in where do TPF donations go as in concrete work of someone
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21:22 spx2 pmichaud: ok no problem
21:22 spx2 pmichaud: you need not be an officer
21:22 pmichaud spx2:  I think you want http://www.perlfoundation.org/grants
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23:46 pugs_svnbot r20210 | putter++ | [elf_d] A first cut at elf_d, with a new IR.
23:46 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20210
23:46 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20210 - Pugs - Trac
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