Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-04-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:22 TimToady Juerd: yes, STD specifically catches any attempt to use =~, along with a good many other p5isms
00:24 Juerd TimToady: Are those special cases meant to be removed in a (distant) future version?
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00:45 TimToady Juerd: that would be for the distant future to judge :)
00:46 Juerd Let's discuss this after christmas then :)
00:48 pasteling "Blazeix" at 137.112.138.139 pasted "perl 6 regex" (5 lines, 87B) at http://sial.org/pbot/30772
00:49 Blazeix oh, that bot is nice.
00:49 Blazeix I'm still having a bit of trouble with the regex
00:49 Auzon What are you trying to do?
00:49 Blazeix I've been reading the synopsis, but I can't quite get it
00:49 Blazeix I would like it to print "barbar"
00:50 Auzon for the forth line, put this:
00:50 Auzon $var ~~ s/foo/bar/;
00:51 Blazeix with the fourth line as that, it hangs
00:51 Blazeix it also hangs the way it is in the pastebin
00:51 Auzon what particular backend?
00:52 Blazeix I'm using pugs 6.2.13
00:52 Auzon pugs: my $var = "foobar"; $var ~~ s/foo/bar/; say $var
00:52 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[barbar␤]
00:52 Auzon pugs: use v6; my $var = "foobar"; $var ~~ s/foo/bar/; say $var
00:52 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[barbar␤]
00:52 Blazeix hmm. Is there a different backend I should be using then?
00:53 Auzon Pugs is probably the best, but you'll want to check versions.
00:53 Auzon perl6: my $var = "foobar"; $var ~~ s/foo/bar/; say $var
00:53 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 37, line 1 column 37:␤my $var = "foobar"; $var ~~ s/foo/bar/; say $va␤                                     ^ HERE␤]
00:53 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[barbar␤]
00:53 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "s/foo/bar/"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤called from Sub 'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statementlist' pc 16326 (src/gen_grammar.pir:2404)␤called from Sub
00:53 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statement_block' pc 13497 (src/gen_grammar.pir:1390)␤called f...
00:54 Auzon so out of the ones online here, only Pugs parses that correctly.
00:54 Auzon perl6: $_ = "foobar"; s/foo/bar/; say $_;
00:54 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 24, line 1 column 24:␤$_ = "foobar"; s/foo/bar/; say $_␤                        ^ HERE␤]
00:54 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[barbar␤]
00:54 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "bar/; say "␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤called from Sub 'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statementlist' pc 16326 (src/gen_grammar.pir:2404)␤called from Sub
00:54 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statement_block' pc 13497 (src/gen_grammar.pir:1390)␤called f...
00:56 REPLeffect I didn't know TimToady was a painter :-)  http://www.walrusproductions.com/zaboutlarry.html
00:56 lambdabot Title: About Larry Wall
00:57 Auzon cute :)
00:58 REPLeffect funny thing is, from a distance on my monitor you might actually think it was him.
00:59 Blazeix cpan's perl6-pugs is 6.2.13 as well, does anyone know what version the pugs irc bot is running (or how to find out)?
01:00 Blazeix i guess it could be svn
01:04 Blazeix pugs: say $?VERSION
01:04 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[6.2.13␤]
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01:07 TimToady pugs: say $?PUGS_VERSION
01:07 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Perl6 User's Golfing System, version 6.2.13, October 17, 2006 (r18093)␤]
01:08 TimToady wow, that's pretty ancient
01:08 TimToady considering we're up to r20239 by now...
01:08 Auzon I was thinking the same thing. But has anything really happened in Pugs since then?
01:08 TimToady you mean, besides breaking? :P
01:09 TimToady anybody know how to fix the problem with Invalid grammatical category: "Bool"
01:09 Auzon So true. I'll probably wait for Fedora 9 to get Pugs running again...
01:09 TimToady my guess is that it's seeing some Bool::True somewhere and not noticing the double colon
01:09 REPLeffect I was wondering about that myself -- is pugs still in active development?  I haven't seen anything new a bout it for a while.
01:10 Juerd That ^ HERE is really useless on IRC.
01:10 TimToady indeed
01:11 TimToady give me a column number or a 'near "foo bar"' any day
01:12 Juerd Or <-- HERE, for example.
01:13 TimToady I'd say "^ HERE" is a form of Pythonic sickness...
01:13 Auzon or XML. *shudders*
01:13 Juerd Nah, then it'd depend on the number of tabs the spaces represent ;)
01:14 Juerd Indenting to match columns is the one of the kinds of indentation that python does not support because it already uses indentation as syntax.
01:15 Juerd It's not something I do very often, but I would like to have the opportunity to use it when I do want it.
01:15 Juerd The only column matching that I do regularly do, is in a comment that looks like #      1      2    3  4      5, to count opening parens in a complex regex :)
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02:40 mncharity pmurias++
02:40 lambdabot mncharity: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:40 mncharity :)
02:45 mncharity /me tries to come up with paragraph on near-term role of Moose... and punts 'till tomorrow.
02:48 mncharity Auzon: re slushed elf stability, one source of bitrot I failed to mention is autobox/autobox-Core/Moose.  Those aren't inlined, and have minimal but not maximal versions check for.  So any future api drift may cause rot.
02:48 mncharity *checked
02:49 Auzon Yeah, I keep forgetting about forward compatibility in modules.
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02:52 mncharity spinclad: re mmd caching, yeah.  though now that its clear its can be done fast enough, I may for now pay the speed hit of falling back to Damian's mmd class, for simplicity and featurefulness.  I just wish it didn't have a rigid arity check.  Someday someone will have to pull together fragments of the assorted mmd classes, to provide something we can cleanly use to support p6.
02:52 mncharity re forward compatibility, yeah. :/  p6 story is better. :)
02:52 mncharity though I'm still not entirely clear on how it gets implemented.
02:53 Auzon Is Moose the only external dependency for Moose?
02:53 mncharity no.  Class::MOP, and I expect others.
02:54 Auzon doh
02:54 Auzon Let's try this again: Is Moose the only external dependency for elf?
02:55 mncharity autobox/autobox-Core
02:55 mncharity Perl6::Say :)
02:55 Auzon oh ok
02:55 Auzon Yeah, I saw Perl6::Say :P
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03:07 mncharity for tomorrow, perhaps 'get ir analysis code in and working', 'spin off a "can compile the one fib example" compiler for rouso', haven't decided whether to refactor Emit as multimethods, or just add them in where needed; with the ability to analyze which things are defined where, replace the current 'p5 doesn't have global subs, so we fudge having all subs as global subs' kludge.  that should get us fairly close to a nice place to work
03:07 mncharity looking through pmurias's work.  running TESTS.
03:09 mncharity creating a mutant Class::Multimethods which can be tolerant of arity variation, and willing to dispatch on a subset of the arguments?  maybe. :/
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03:10 mncharity create misc/elfish with an rx_on_re?  or just misc/rx_on_re/.   concept of pushing to have a front-end bootstrap by tax day.
03:12 mncharity find a sane story for the autoboxing stuff.  what are the classes, roles, etc.  scavanging code from autobox-Core and Moose-autobox to make it happen.
03:12 mncharity weee.
03:14 mncharity re Perl6::Say, that can go away once the sub namespaces are straightened out.  can then start pulling together a prelude.
03:14 mncharity end of day.  good night all &
03:15 Auzon Good night
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05:49 pugs_svnbot r20248 | lwall++ | [STD] can now parse say(42+1); as statementlist
05:49 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20248
05:49 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20248 - Pugs - Trac
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06:23 spinclad perl6: say(42+1);
06:24 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[43␤]
06:24 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[43␤]
06:24 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[43␤]
06:24 spinclad perl6: parse 'say(42+1);'
06:24 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/Ki​ndaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤   KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MO​P::__ANON__('HASH(0x824bd14)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e4eaac)') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/Ki​ndaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169␤
06:24 exp_evalbot ..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824bd14)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e4eaac)') ca...
06:24 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&parse"␤    at /tmp/8gZXNhqUG3 line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
06:24 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: '_block10' pc 31 (EVAL_11:15)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 785 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1067 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called from Sub
06:24 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1246 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:676)...
06:25 Auzon oooh, that one broke nicely :P
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06:26 spinclad it knows how to parse, but knows not that it knows
06:26 Auzon What was it supposed to do?
06:26 TimToady turn into an AI
06:27 spinclad what, no omphaloskepsis?
06:27 spinclad no self-knowledge?
06:28 TimToady most OO languages are confused about "self"
06:29 spinclad 'yes, that's _your_ self, not _my_ self.'
06:35 spinclad Auzon: one could dream of it returning a parse-tree with <statementlist> in it.  other than that, it did what it ought.
06:35 Auzon That's what I suspected
06:36 Auzon I'm a fan of code that you can ask "hey, what do are you trying to do with this input?"
06:36 spinclad 'hey, give it back.  it's mine!'
06:38 spinclad 'thief!  programses!  we hates them, yes we do!'
06:38 TimToady hey, I said it parsed it, not that it returned anything useful :)
06:39 Auzon The implications of programs acting like golem (it is golem who acts like that, right?) simply scares me.
06:40 spinclad it was baggins who acted like that.  give us back our preciouss!
06:41 Auzon Yeah...
06:41 Auzon Then where did I get "golem" from?
06:41 spinclad gollum  (aka Sméagol)
06:41 Auzon Aha
06:42 TimToady a golem is one of those undead things that wanders around cemeteries...
06:42 Auzon I thought he was the one that had the "my precioussss" lines
06:42 TimToady usually in Prague
06:43 spinclad (the golem was man creating a man in his own image)
06:46 spinclad i heard from Gerry Sussman that he, Marvin Minsky, and Joel Moses, all at MIT AI Lab/Lab for Comp Sci, were all descended from the Maharal of Prague, maker of the golem in question
06:47 * jql wonders if men made from mud is metaphorically significant in #perl6
06:48 spinclad Joel felt it had deep meaning, Marvin thought it void of significance
06:50 Auzon It's kind of interesting that you mention the AI Lab, since that's trying to create intelligence in our own image.
06:51 spinclad ISTR that Gerry dedicated his thesis to the Maharal, "who first noted that 'and God created man in his own image' was recursive"
06:51 Auzon What is 'ISTR'?
06:52 TimToady I seem to recall
06:52 spinclad I Seem To Recall
06:52 Auzon I see. I haven't heard that one before
06:53 TimToady the question is, to *whom* do you seem to have recalled it...
06:53 spinclad yes, it's an interesting connection.  one of the things Joel found profound.
06:53 spinclad .oO { i have recalled it to my mind, and called it to yours }
06:54 TimToady but surely you call something before you recall it...
06:55 spinclad i heard the call, i hear it still in the stillness...
06:55 spinclad i must recollect it before i can recall it to you
06:56 TimToady you'll have to remind yourself a few times first
06:57 TimToady me, I mind my wife, and then she reminds me...
06:57 spinclad sir!  this time you go too far!  _mind_ and i have agreed to never speak again.
06:58 TimToady well, for my part, it's about time for Mind over Mattress...
06:58 Auzon Good night then :)
06:59 TimToady g'night & zzz
07:00 spinclad pardon, i'm getting too silly here.  i shall take your diagnosis and medicine for my own.
07:01 Auzon I found it amusing, for what it's worth
07:10 Auzon pugs: ln(1e6)
07:10 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&ln"␤    at /tmp/AbJt0T67Va line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
07:10 Auzon pugs: log(1e6)/log(2)
07:10 exp_evalbot RESULT[19.931568569324174]
07:10 Auzon oh right, ln wasn't what I wanted either
07:10 Auzon pugs: log(1e6)
07:10 exp_evalbot RESULT[13.815510557964274]
07:10 Auzon pugs: log(1e6)/log(10)
07:10 exp_evalbot RESULT[5.999999999999999]
07:10 Auzon Does log default to base e?
07:11 spinclad .oO { dreams of a natural base }  .oO { looks like }
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07:12 Auzon pugs: log(1e6)/log(2.72) # close enough
07:12 exp_evalbot RESULT[*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    expecting operator or "}"␤    at /tmp/47hL0eooJJ line 2, column 1␤]
07:12 Auzon pugs: log(1e6)/log(2.72)
07:12 exp_evalbot RESULT[13.806786321572208]
07:12 Auzon yeah
07:13 * spinclad -> bed &  # perchance to dream
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07:26 Tene http://blog.rafaelferreira.net/2008​/04/couple-of-interesting-dsls.html -- interesting
07:26 lambdabot Title: Rafael rambling: A couple of interesting DSLs, http://tinyurl.com/557jza
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11:55 moritz_ re
12:02 moritz_ [particle1: ping
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13:36 pugs_svnbot r20249 | rhr++ | [evalbot] add a \n so it doesn't get confused by comments in the program
13:36 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20249
13:36 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20249 - Pugs - Trac
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22:38 mncharity lol # we have such fun backlogs :)
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22:48 mncharity hmm.  It would be nice if STD5_run returned an error if the requested rule didn't exist.  eg, statmentlist :P
22:51 TimToady there are lots of it-would-be-nices in the world
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22:52 Juerd I expect them ALL to be implemented by christmas.
22:52 TimToady it would be nice
22:52 Juerd It would the nicest would-be christmas :)
22:55 mncharity re nice, any objection to STD5_run changing to eval a require+parse, rather than the current system()?
22:55 TimToady you wrote it, you can do whatever you like with it.  :)
22:56 mncharity hmm... green and red flashing lights...
22:56 TimToady I basically only run it to do the equivalent of "make", and then go back to ./try
22:56 TimToady so I have no objections
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23:01 pugs_svnbot r20250 | putter++ | elf/TESTS: Added passing v6/v6-KindaPerl6/t/kp6/*.t
23:01 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20250
23:01 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20250 - Pugs - Trac
23:05 mncharity re make, ah, ok
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23:28 pugs_svnbot r20251 | putter++ | src/perl6/STD5_run: Complains if the requested start rule doesn't exist.  Explicitly reports parse failure.
23:28 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20251
23:28 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20251 - Pugs - Trac
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23:48 mncharity Not sure if the switch to Class::Multimethods is more than temporary.  Really want a derivative instead.
23:48 pugs_svnbot r20252 | putter++ | [elf_d] Switch to using Class::Multimethods for multi methods.
23:48 pugs_svnbot diff: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20252
23:48 lambdabot Title: Changeset 20252 - Pugs - Trac
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