Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-05-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 spinclad it looks likely that it would impose numeric context on both sides, ie. try to interpret the strings as numbers.
00:12 Eevee I suppose that's really the question then
00:12 Eevee will strings still automatically cast to numbers
00:17 TimToady it depends simply on how the default infix:<->(Any $x, Any $y) is written
00:18 TimToady unless someone explicitly writes infix:<->(Str $x, Str $y)
00:19 TimToady at minimum, you'll get a couple of warnings out of it
00:20 Eevee well, would hope so
00:20 Eevee just wonder if they'd be fatal or not
00:20 Eevee I can't imagine where trying to subtract "apple" is what someone wants
00:20 TimToady we're trying to avoid fatals because we want to be parallelism friendly
00:20 TimToady so more likely is to return an unthrown exception
00:21 TimToady if you're hypersubtracting two arrays, you don't want to blow up everything just because of a bad apple or two
00:21 * Eevee groan
00:21 [particle1 Failure++
00:22 TimToady what we have here is Failure to communicte. :)
00:22 TimToady *communicate even...
00:24 Eevee well
00:24 Eevee damn, that sucks both ways
00:24 Eevee if it's fatal, I just lost the entire operation
00:25 Eevee if it's not, I have to either loop through both beforehand and error-check or loop through the result and look for a nonresult  (or forget to do anything and have the exception floating around until who knows when)
00:28 Auzon Either way, you need to be sure that your array doesn't have any strings in it if you're going to subtract.
00:29 TimToady you're probably going to do some kind of reduce operation at some point, and you just use one that dispatches to a Failure case
00:30 TimToady and that can determinate policy
01:10 obra TimToady: I've been hacking at MAD a bit. Would you be ok with everything getting shifted into packages under MAD::?
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01:50 TimToady obra: is fine by me, as long as it's being maintained
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01:54 mncharity backlogging... laughing...
01:54 mncharity "apples" - "oranges"
01:55 mncharity I guess that should be "apples" <=> "oranges"
01:55 TimToady now one wishes to make a pun on Orange Free State...
01:55 mncharity oyyyy
01:57 mncharity Hmm.  "The Perl 6 Joke Book"...
01:57 mncharity maybe someone should start a file...
01:58 Tene I already have one.  ~/irclogs/freenode/#perl6.*
01:59 mncharity looking...
02:00 mncharity oh, joke.  got it.  didn't realize there was a ... .  oh.  joke.  got it... maybe
02:00 mncharity ;)
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02:03 mncharity ok, don't get it.  explain?
02:05 Auzon All his logs are The Perl 6 Joke Book
02:05 * mncharity not psyched to hack STD_red this evening. :/
02:06 allbery_b for some reason I thought TimToady said that
02:06 allbery_b (about irc logs)
02:06 * TimToady wonders if irc is short for "I recall correctly"
02:08 mncharity finish sync'ing std.rb; cross fingers; attempt parse of "most of" t/; debug; try again; achieve "finally have a second (non-pugs) parser for t/", one willing to talk about objects.  fork elf_f.  attack tests.  smoking...
02:09 TimToady I think STD5 is getting pretty close to functional
02:09 mncharity :) !
02:10 TimToady was astounded to discover that tre doesn't match "\n" against [\n\f]
02:10 Auzon STD5 is the Perl 5 translation of STD.pm?
02:10 mncharity \n\r?
02:10 TimToady in particular, it's the *automated* translation
02:10 obra TimToady: I'm trying to get MAD to the point where it will actually be run as part of the 5.10 tests by default
02:11 TimToady no, was trying to match \v
02:11 mncharity oh, [\n\f]   eeep
02:11 obra "force others to maintain it through trickery"
02:11 TimToady getting all the ws, unv, vws rules tidy is a pain if you're trying to do LTM right
02:12 TimToady well, there are some unicode chars in there too
02:12 mncharity ah
02:12 TimToady but it's really hard to make much progress parsing Perl if you can't recognize vertical whitespace...
02:12 TimToady obra++
02:12 TimToady *obra++
02:13 mncharity re pain, yeah.  hmm.  /me wonders about implication for maintenance and modification...
02:13 TimToady sorry, C joke...
02:13 mncharity specifically, a C ++ joke.
02:13 TimToady rofl
02:14 obra *snicker*
02:14 Eevee ha
02:14 mncharity :)
02:14 TimToady well, the main point of STD5 is to work through all the implications of real LTM
02:14 TimToady and specifically autogenerated LTM
02:14 * obra is trying to decide what the right thing to do about the XML::Parser dependency is
02:15 mncharity re point, nod
02:15 TimToady MAD doesn't have to spit out XML, it only has to spit out something recognizable by nomad, or whatever lib it's gotten itself turned into
02:16 TimToady so while I can cheat to some extent, I often choose not to
02:16 TimToady last night and this morning I hacked (hopefully correct) longest-token backoff into the lexer
02:16 TimToady so we should be able to put back the commented rules that start with <ident> pretty soon
02:17 TimToady assuming we don't want to leave it the way it is for performance
02:17 TimToady should probably be special casing for ident tokens anyway
02:17 TimToady but that's just an optimization
02:18 * obra nods
02:18 mncharity re put back, np.  one of the advantages of the otherwise painful manual decoupling of STD_red from STD.pm is I've just kept them in.
02:18 TimToady main thing is to preserve correct semantics, which probably means I should break apart term:name now just to force the issue
02:18 obra I don't actually have a huge issue with the xml-as-metaformat. It's more of a "the existing Nomad side of things would require refactoring to not use XML::Parser."
02:18 obra But cheating and creating a baby-mad-xml parser seems plausible
02:19 TimToady well, if I'd done it a few months later I'd probably have tried to use yaml instead
02:19 * obra nods
02:19 mncharity re XML, I note my startlement at the poor performance of yaml (hmm, was it just ruby's, p5, or both (syck)).  if performance matters, might consider a  foo(bar(...,"...",3,...),hee(...))  function form which can just be eval'ed.
02:19 TimToady but yaml has its own issues...
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02:20 TimToady that could also be made to work
02:20 TimToady and has a better chance of passing odd characters that upset xml/yaml
02:21 mncharity oh yeah.  that, and other "interesting" little bugs.
02:22 obra Yep. I sent a patch to p5p today for the first of those.
02:22 obra First (two lines of) C I've written in years.
02:24 mncharity it seems clear no one is slamming syck with large volumes of generated end-to-end tests.
02:24 mncharity *yet
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02:24 TimToady well, not with unicode in it.  :)
02:26 obra :)
02:26 * obra mails off a 400k diff to p5p
02:26 mncharity even non-unicode.  I'm getting fuzzy on the details, but there was the "if the field value is string x, then let's change the field name..."
02:26 mncharity "(two lines of) C"... "400k diff"...
02:27 * mncharity thinks "line wrapping"
02:31 * TimToady thinks "tab expansion"
02:31 mncharity oo, good one :)
02:31 TimToady but probably just mostly Perl, not C
02:32 mncharity sent/sending implies to different patches, but i was slow to notice that...
02:32 mncharity *two even
02:32 mncharity one would be odd
02:34 TimToady it's the parody bit
02:34 mncharity EECC
02:35 mncharity hmm.  EECC!
02:35 mncharity ok.  let's see... focus...
02:36 obra Ah. a nice tidy 57k once compressed
02:36 TimToady that's cheating
02:37 TimToady though probably a much better measure of actual information content
02:37 [particle] ...as if toke.c isn't compressed.
02:37 mncharity if programmer productivity is very roughly constant in lines of code... could you write the compressed form and be 10x more productive?
02:37 [particle] off &
02:37 Auzon See you, [particle]
02:38 Auzon TimToady: Interesting idea. Compressed LOC as a new metric?
02:38 TimToady well of course, that's why my editor is cat >/dev/kmem
02:38 TimToady why do you think it always says "decompressing" when you're booting up linux?
02:39 * mncharity is somewhat curious if # vi /dev/kmem  works... but not enough to try
02:39 obra note that I moved every file in mad/ to saner locales.
02:39 obra so really, I probably only touched about 40 loc non-programatically
02:39 TimToady Auzon: yes, but then you'll get comments filled with random passages from classic books
02:40 TimToady oh, wait, I already do that...
02:40 mncharity lol
02:40 Auzon Eh. Most code metrics are flawed.
02:40 Auzon If not all.
02:40 TimToady that's because most code is flawed, I imagine
02:40 Auzon Well, to assess productivity :P
02:40 mncharity I'd forgotten about the pugs source quotes/poems.  That was fun.
02:41 * obra was pleased. clkao and I went for a week's hackathon. sloccount told us we'd worked for 9 months and it had cost $150,000 to create our output
02:41 mncharity Auzon: smaller better?
02:42 Auzon That's my opinion on code, yes.
02:42 mncharity "dramatically improve productivity... remove macros from your language..."
02:42 mncharity "Java's secrets to productivity..."
02:42 mncharity beans!
02:44 mncharity I was kind of disturbed the next morning when I realized I had been making "loc is good"-ish irc arguments the night before.  *Late* the night before.
02:45 mncharity "I am sorry for the length of my letter, but I had not the time to write a short one."  Blaise Pascal
02:45 obra And now to see what the porters' wisdom on my hackjob is
02:46 obra But first, Battlestar Galactica.
02:46 mncharity hacking p5!  it has everything! ...  suspense! ...
02:46 obra Thanks for the san-check, TimToady. (madness is still measured on the sanity scale, after all)
02:47 mncharity but is it a logarithmic order-of-magnitude scale...
02:47 obra Where does Sage's MAD->6 live?
02:49 mncharity "I am sorry for the length of my program, but I had not the language to write a short one."  Ben Bitdiddle
02:49 mncharity "Perl 6 wasn't ready yet."
02:50 mncharity ok.  brain frie.  maybe a couple of hours of p6 tomorrow.
02:50 mncharity *fried
02:50 mncharity good night all.  been fun. &
02:50 Auzon see you.
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02:54 TimToady obra: ./misc/pX/Common/P5_to_P6_Translation
03:24 obra Thanks. There's some good stuff there that should migrate upstream into p5 core. (http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/pX/Common/P5_to_P6_Translation/AST_Description.txt in particular)
03:24 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/69z2xd
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04:02 Eevee time to take a shot at this test migration thing
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07:35 TimToady hmm, looks like feather is down...
07:42 TimToady pugs: say "howdy"
07:42 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[howdy␤]
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07:51 rindolf Hi TimToady
07:51 rindolf TimToady: good localtime()
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14:22 moritz_ re
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16:18 riffraff hi
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17:26 pmurias pugs: say "evalbot works"
17:26 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[evalbot works␤]
17:26 pmurias pugs: say sum(1,3,4)
17:26 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[8␤]
17:26 pmurias shouldn't the sum function be removed?
17:26 pmurias as there exists [+]
17:26 pmurias ?
17:27 moritz_ is it still in S29
17:27 moritz_ ?
17:27 moritz_ I don't see it there
17:28 pmurias neither do i
17:28 moritz_ so it's just a pugs artifact
17:29 pmurias but is tested in t/builtins/lists/sum.t
17:30 moritz_ that's one more piece of work for Auzon++ to remove ;-)
17:30 moritz_ actually we should have a test file with deprecated builtins
17:30 moritz_ that tests for the non-existance of a sub 'sum'
17:31 moritz_ or you can just remove it for now, if you feel comfortable with it
17:32 pmurias i'm not sure we should check for non-existance of anything
17:33 allbery_b any complaitn implementation is allowed to provide more than 6.0.0-STD
17:33 moritz_ allbery_b: is that officially specced?
17:34 allbery_b I believe so, that's the point of having the -STD stuff
17:34 allbery_b it's kinda the language spec version of 'does'
17:34 moritz_ I'd find it very confusing if my own 'multi sub sum(...)' isn't called on some implementations because there is a builtin already
17:34 moritz_ allbery_b: but deviations from the standard must be declared
17:34 moritz_ allbery_b: like 'use v6_with_sum;' or whatever
17:35 moritz_ allbery_b: extensibility doesn't imply that you may have any extensions in an implementation of the standard
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23:47 meppl good night

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