Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-05-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 Juerd I hate autoscrolling. I don't read entire texts at exactly the same speed apparently.
00:01 Juerd And I don't mind scrolling manually at all.
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02:59 pugs_svnbot r20479 | putter++ | [elf] sprintf added; an unfinshed start on import(); Pair now used for pairs.
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03:07 pugs_svnbot r20480 | putter++ | misc/elfish/showcode: View p6 source, ast, and ir, in your browser, and click between them.  An evening's hack.
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03:56 pugs_svnbot r20481 | putter++ | [STD_red] Line and character positions are now unchanged by removal of bogus pods.
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05:00 Auzon TimToady: in S01, should "use v6-alpha" be "use v6" in the nested example?
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05:33 speckbot r14545 | larry++ | cleanup of old v6-alpha hack suggested by Auzon++
05:33 Auzon Thanks TimToady. I'll be getting some of them in the test suite soonish.
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07:16 pmurias @tell mncharity STD_red_run is broken it just passes the perl6 code along as the output of the parse
07:16 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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07:53 pugs_svnbot r20482 | pmurias++ | [STD_red] removed a debugging leftover which broke STD_red_run
07:56 pmurias @tell mncharity i fixed tht
07:56 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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08:51 moritz_ Auzon: pong
08:51 moritz_ (if somewhat belated ;-)
08:56 pmurias does STD.pm support quasi-quotes?
08:57 moritz_ what are quasi-quotes?
08:58 moritz_ is it that q:options/stuff/ thingy?
08:58 pmurias my $code = q:code {say 1+2}
08:59 pmurias they are AST literals using perl6 syntax
08:59 moritz_ I remember the kp6 discussion about them
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10:36 pmurias would it be possible to add hooks to the pugs repo which checks if a comit breaks elf?
10:37 moritz_ imho that would be rather intrusive, unless restricted to misc/elf/
10:38 moritz_ you could set up a cron job that reports via an irc bot or something
10:38 pmurias of course it would be restricted to misc/elf
10:39 moritz_ pmurias: how would you define breakage?
10:46 pmurias not self-compiling or the self-compilied version not running hello world
10:55 masak do quasi-quotes close over variables?
10:56 moritz_ pmurias: you do notice that bootstrapping elf takes quite some time?
10:58 masak i.e. `return q:code { $var }; # var in this scope, or in caller's?`
10:59 pmurias moritz_: a few seconds (with elf_faster)
10:59 pmurias might be better left to the bot
11:00 masak ah, nvm, found it: S06:2590
11:00 masak they're hygienic :)
11:07 moritz_ pmurias: I haven't tried elf_faster yet
11:17 pmurias it's faster ;)
11:17 pugs_svnbot r20483 | pmurias++ | renamed EmitNoMooseP5 to EmitFasterP5
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12:09 moritz_ http://blog.koehntopp.de/uploads/DSC01935.JPG
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12:35 moritz_ pugs: my %h = (1, 2);
12:35 exp_evalbot RESULT[{("1" => 2),}]
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14:06 pugs_svnbot r20484 | pmurias++ | changed hash accesses on objects to method calls
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14:11 pugs_svnbot r20485 | pmichaud++ | * add #?rakudo skip blocks
14:11 pugs_svnbot r20485 | pmichaud++ | * tests still don't pass in rakudo because of $_ in bare closures
14:22 TimToady pmurias: STD.pm does not yet have support for quasi-quoting.  (It used to have support for the "triple rule" via the old quotesnabber mechanism, but nibbler doesn't know about triple-quotes yet.  Nothing in STD has ever recognized :code though.)
14:23 pugs_svnbot r20486 | pmurias++ | changed some more illegal private attributes accesses into method calls
14:23 pugs_svnbot r20486 | pmurias++ | marked some p5 regexes as rx:P5
14:24 pmurias TimToady: thanks
14:25 TimToady still working out whether balanced quotes should be handled by language derivation rather than context variable, and this tends to tell me it should, since the quasi-quote char will almost always be {...}, and in any case there are far fewer bracket chars than other characters, so we're not talking about a lot of new derived languages, I suspect
14:26 TimToady and then the triple-quote rule can be generically written as <starter>**3 as long as the language defines a starter rule
14:27 TimToady so at the moment only unbalanced quotes will be matched implicitly by setting $+STOP
14:28 TimToady it's also quite possible that $+STOP is a premature optimization, and most programs will use only a few quote chars that can be handled by derivation...we'll see how it works out
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15:33 pugs_svnbot r20487 | particle++ | [spec] start marking string length tests for rakudo
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16:19 pugs_svnbot r20488 | pmurias++ | [elf] removed more of treating objects as hashes
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16:51 Auzon moritz_: re pong... I forgot what I was going to ask.
16:51 moritz_ Auzon: ok ;-)
16:52 moritz_ if it were important you'd certainly resorted to email
16:52 pmichaud Auzon++  # getting v6-alpha removed from spec.  :-)
16:52 moritz_ oups
16:52 Auzon moritz_: It's almost certainly related to evalbot and elf, so it's not urgent
16:54 Auzon re v6-alpha in the spec: I counted some 597 test files in pugs/t that use v6-alpha. Is there any problem with a just doing global replacement on them?
16:55 moritz_ Auzon: if you restrict your regexes sufficiently it shouldn't be a problem
16:56 Auzon I'll do a svn diff to make sure. Is it a problem to do them all in one shot?
16:56 moritz_ ie "s/^(\s)*use\s+v6-alpha;\s*$/${1}use v6;/
16:56 moritz_ no, problem, go right ahead
16:56 [particle] please do! yay.
16:57 pmichaud I think it's pretty safe... please commit :-)
16:57 Auzon Alright.
16:57 * pmurias is annoyed by implementation specific p6 "extensions"
16:57 moritz_ I just don't want comments along the lines "the difference between v6 and v6-alpha is..." mangled
16:57 moritz_ they should be removed, not mangled ;)
16:58 pmichaud v6-alpha was in the spec, so it's not exactly "implementation specific"  :-)
16:58 pmurias i'm removing non-speced workarounds in elf
16:59 pmurias an object in elf is a p5 hash underneath
16:59 Auzon /^use v6-alpha;$/ seems to work fine
17:00 pmurias so you can use $obj<foo> to access a private foo attribiute
17:01 Auzon and there are four files that mention v6-alpha without being in the earlier format.
17:01 Auzon OK.
17:05 pmurias pmichaud: is it possible to work on rakudo withouth touching pir this days?
17:05 pmichaud pmurias: not yet.  coming soon.
17:05 pmichaud well, unless you're doing makefile, test, or harness stuff :-)
17:05 pmichaud moritz++ added a very useful patch yesterday to improve our spectest handling
17:06 [particle] so far, rakudo can compile 300+ lines of CGI.pm in the pugs repo
17:07 moritz_ cool
17:07 pmurias pir is my least favourite language
17:07 [particle] if it weren't for gather/take, it'd probably be >400
17:09 Tene gather/take isn't implemented?
17:10 [particle] nope
17:10 Tene Huh.
17:10 Tene I know what I'm working on tonight, then.
17:11 pmichaud sounds like Tene++ is going to pull a jonathan++ on us :-)
17:11 Tene What's jonathan about this?
17:12 pmichaud implementing something early that I think will come later :-)
17:12 pmichaud like Junctions.  :-)
17:13 Auzon rakudo: say 1 == 1|2|3
17:13 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
17:13 pmichaud I think junctions may be disabled at the moment
17:13 Tene rakudo: my $f = 1|2|3; $f = $f + 5; say $f.perl;
17:13 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤current instr.: 'parrot;Junction;perl' pc 3746 (src/gen_builtins.pir:2835)␤called from Sub '_block11' pc 113 (EVAL_10:42)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 783 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub
17:13 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1065 (src/PCT/HLLCompile...
17:14 Tene rakudo: my $f = 1|2|3; $f = $f + 5; say $f;
17:14 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[get_string() not implemented in class 'Junction'␤current instr.: 'print' pc 7445 (src/gen_builtins.pir:5254)␤called from Sub 'say' pc 7467 (src/gen_builtins.pir:5264)␤called from Sub '_block11' pc 116 (EVAL_10:42)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 783
17:14 exp_evalbot ..(src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;...
17:16 Tene pmichaud: is there anything particularly tricky about gather/take that makes you expect it to not come until later?
17:17 pmurias $foo.accessor(...) is illegal perl6?
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17:17 pmurias mncharity: hi
17:18 mncharity hi pmurias :)
17:18 lambdabot mncharity: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:18 pmurias elf is currently broken as it depended on bugs
17:18 pmichaud Tene:  just the handling of the collection of return arguments is all
17:19 mncharity highly dependent on bugs.  aka bootstrap. :)
17:19 mncharity looking...
17:19 pmichaud Tene: it may actually be easy to implement, which is why I was saying it's another "jonathan".  I thought Junctions might be tricky until he did a simple implementation :-)
17:20 mncharity at some point we should probably have a concept of a stable/~release binary.  for things like misc/elf/showcode to use.
17:21 pmurias i'm thinking how to solve it so use the prev revision
17:21 Eevee oh hey when did we get junctions
17:21 Eevee rakudo: my $f = 1|2|3; $f = $f + 5; say 7 == $f;
17:21 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1␤]
17:21 Eevee nice
17:22 mncharity re solve, so is the cause known?
17:22 pmurias yes
17:23 mncharity *misc/elfish/showcode
17:23 mncharity ?
17:23 pmurias the problem was that elf used <attr> instead of attr
17:23 pmurias * .attr
17:24 pmurias when i substitutes .attr for <attr> a bug surfaced
17:26 pugs_svnbot r20489 | pmurias++ | [elf] slightly less broken
17:26 mncharity hmm.  I suspect Emit is using implicit IR node type detection, by saying things like  if $n<foo> { 'ah, $n supports foo, so...' }
17:26 pmurias $n<foo> is horrible and strictly forbiden in perl6
17:27 pmurias when i solved the bug which surfaced another one appeared with the accessors
17:27 mncharity :)
17:27 mncharity err, re 'horrible and strictly forbiden', :)
17:27 pmurias which should be used $foo.bar = 123 not $foo.bar(123)
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17:28 pmurias there are some $foo.bar(123) abuses in elf left
17:29 mncharity yep.  welcome to the fun which is bootstrapping...  (at least for a non kernel language "onion" approach)
17:30 pmurias the ci'ed elf_f_faster is the one from the previous version
17:32 pmurias an "onion" approach isn't much better
17:34 pmurias misunderstood
17:34 mncharity "onion" allows each layer to achieve correctness, independently of those above it.
17:35 pmurias if one of the layers contains hack the others are tainte
17:35 pmurias d
17:36 mncharity but there's no need for a layer to contain a hack.  ie, "onion" is usually implemented on top of another language, and only becomes self-implemented towards the end.
17:36 pmurias a kernel language fixes a lots of problems
17:36 mncharity err, what I just said wasn't quite true.
17:36 mncharity hmm :/
17:37 mncharity anyway, back to creating a "bootstrap test" Makefile...
17:38 pmurias i'm a bit confused now, i'll banish the non-lvalue accessor usage later today
17:38 Auzon Here goes nothing.
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17:39 pmurias Auzon: ?
17:39 Auzon I'm committing all those files.
17:43 moritz_ the commit arrived here
17:43 pugs_svnbot r20490 | Auzon++ | s/^use v6-alpha;$/use v6;/;
17:43 pugs_svnbot r20490 | Auzon++ | Also catching a few other mentions of v6-alpha.
17:44 Auzon I visually reviewed the diff, so it should be OK.
17:44 [particle] heh, if only that were always true
17:45 Auzon Indeed.
17:49 mncharity Auzon++  # bulk t/ improvements
17:52 moritz_ @karma Auzon
17:52 lambdabot Auzon has a karma of 9
17:53 * moritz_ predicts that within the next two months Auzon++'s karma will increase by at least 150
17:54 [particle] within the past second auzon++'s karma rose by one
17:55 mncharity pmurias: the key is to look at the set of things broken/missing, choose one you hypothesize is currently easily addressed, attempt it, do it {fully, partially, or back out as being unexpectedly difficult}, and (most importantly) get it back to being working.
17:57 mncharity That last being the "always keep a place to stand" standard advice.  It's very easy to wander off the "bootstrap path" into woods of recursive yaks ("to finish this, I'll fix that, but that turns out to require the other, which..." starts to get very confusing and unmanagable).
18:01 pugs_svnbot r20491 | putter++ | [elf] Makefile added with README's bootstrap test (modified to start on elf_f_faster).  README now empty.
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18:29 moritz_ I just tried 'make' in elf_f_src
18:29 moritz_ make: *** No rule to make target `../elf_f_faster2', needed by `bootstrap_executable_permissions'.  Stop.
18:31 pugs_svnbot r20492 | putter++ | [elf] Makefile: add test targets, separate concepts of rebuild and bootstrap.
18:31 mncharity moritz_: fixed
18:32 mncharity though default target is now a test.  hmm, perhaps that's a mistake
18:32 mncharity ?
18:33 mncharity starting with empty STD_red cache, the elf_f_faster and elf_f bootstrap checks take 70 s on my box.
18:34 mncharity moritz_: note that the elf_f_src sources are currently in a broken state.  suggest svn up -r...
18:37 mncharity cd misc/elf; svn up . -r20479; svn up elf_f_src/Makefile
18:38 moritz_ mncharity: the bootstrap hell you wanted to avoid? :/
18:39 mncharity sigh.  "the woods are pretty, but dark and deep"
18:40 mncharity but now that you have a working elf_f_faster you can run  make demo  in misc/elfish/showcode.  last night's cute hack.
18:41 mncharity :)
18:46 pugs_svnbot r20493 | putter++ | [elf] elf_f_faster: reverted to working r20479.
18:47 mncharity pmurias: I took the liberty of reverting the elf_f_faster executable.  code is still the same.  want people to be able to see last night's cute toy.
18:47 mncharity s/code/sources/
18:49 moritz_ sh: line 1: ./../STD_red/STD_red_run: No such file or directory
18:49 moritz_ Parse failed.
18:50 mncharity command line?
18:50 moritz_ "make demo"
18:50 moritz_ I think the ./ should be ../
18:57 mncharity fixed, i think.  ./ ?
18:57 pugs_svnbot r20494 | putter++ | [elfish/showcode] Makefile: fixed.  The ELF_STD_RED_RUN check now fails properly, and anyway, the Makefile itself now sets it.  moritz_++
18:59 mncharity not fixed.  sloppy.  sigh.  looking...
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19:00 moritz_ now 'showcode' builds for me
19:00 moritz_ and when I run it I get 'Use of uninitialized value $file in concatenation (.) or string at ./showcode line 225.
19:01 moritz_ do I need X for that?
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19:03 mncharity re 'Use of uninitialized value $file'..., ?!
19:03 pugs_svnbot r20495 | putter++ | [elfish/showcode] Makefile: trying again.  Now requires user to set ELF_STD_RED_RUN=../../STD_red/STD_red_run themselves.
19:04 moritz_ fnow it works
19:04 moritz_ mncharity++
19:08 mncharity np.  should have tested a bit, but it was late.  my thanks for serving as a guinea pig.  :/
19:09 moritz_ guinea pigs are tasty ;)
19:09 moritz_ or so it's said - I never ate one ;)
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19:09 mncharity not yet set up to show the analysis notes in the IR pane.  and the IR tree needs to be compactified.  and... so much else.  but still... there are pretty colors.
19:09 mncharity :)
19:10 mncharity "p6 needs more pretty colors"
19:10 moritz_ indeed
19:12 mncharity incidentally, someone could take the same approach as showcode does to dump a syntax information tree for editor source coloring, etc.
19:12 mncharity s/same/similar/
19:12 mncharity or just for colorful html-ifying of p6 source.
19:15 mncharity oh, hmm.  showcode actually depends on the elf_f_src *sources* working.  because it does code parsing and ir work, it has a copy of the compiler.  so it won't work on HEAD.  only worked for you because you -r20479'ed.  :/
19:16 moritz_ uhm, I didn't (or so I think)
19:16 mncharity oh, no, maybe ok.  as long as only the emitter is broken, rather than the ir analysis too.
19:18 mncharity intermittent svn failures...
19:19 moritz_ it seems that feather's apache is half b0rked
19:20 moritz_ busy rakudo.org day ;)
19:20 mncharity busy rakudo.org day?
19:20 * mncharity joins #parrot
19:23 mncharity pmurias: re $n<foo>, re could always define a  method postcircumfix:[< >] in IRx1::Base, and pretend the $n<foo> are non-bogus... ;)
19:24 mncharity *s/re/we/
19:24 mncharity moritz_: did the javascript work for you?
19:26 moritz_ mncharity: I don't know what it should do, but it hilights and scrolles the left and middle frame if I click on the right
19:26 mncharity good.  should be able to click in the other frames as well, and have all 3 stay synced.
19:27 moritz_ mncharity: which comes remarkably close to what I intended when I thought about my 'perlhints' project, only that the anotations should be semantic informations in natural language
19:27 mncharity re synced, or not... hmm...
19:28 moritz_ would be cool, but I don't know how useful it would be
19:28 mncharity ah.  more windows! :)  also have a whole nother dimention... mouseover popups.
19:31 mncharity ok, so ~stays in sync, but no so good about cleaning up past highlighting.  unsuprising.  @infinite_todo_list.push
19:31 FurnaceBoy joined #perl6
19:32 mncharity @a.splice(randint(@a),0,$x) ?
19:32 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
19:32 mncharity +@a
19:32 mncharity perl6: 3 => 4
19:32 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 2, line 1 column 2:␤3 => ␤  ^ HERE␤]
19:32 exp_evalbot ..pugs: RESULT[(3 => 4)]
19:32 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[get_bool() not implemented in class 'Perl6Pair'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1288 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:688)␤called from Sub 'parrot;Perl6::Compiler;main' pc 9782 (perl6.pir:186)␤]
19:33 mncharity pugs: my $h = (3=>4,5=>6)
19:33 exp_evalbot RESULT[[(3 => 4), (5 => 6)]]
19:34 mncharity pugs: my $h = (3=>4,5=>6); $h.WHAT
19:34 exp_evalbot RESULT[::Array]
19:34 Eevee why is rakudo trying to cast a Pair to Bool?
19:34 mncharity ?
19:35 moritz_ that's what the error message is saying
19:35 mncharity s/?/dunno/
19:35 mncharity :)
19:35 mncharity rakudo: 0
19:35 exp_evalbot RESULT[0]
19:35 mncharity rakudo: 1
19:36 mncharity rakudo: 0
19:36 exp_evalbot RESULT[0]
19:36 mncharity rakudo: 1
19:36 exp_evalbot RESULT[1]
19:36 Auzon Oh, is that the one character thing?
19:36 Auzon rakudo: 1
19:36 Auzon Yep, it is
19:37 mncharity rakudo: my %h; %h
19:37 mncharity rakudo: my %h; %h
19:37 exp_evalbot RESULT[Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Mapping'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 38 (EVAL_11:18)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 783 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1065 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called from Sub
19:37 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1244 (...
19:37 mncharity re ws character, yeah. :/
19:37 mncharity rakudo: my @a; @a
19:37 exp_evalbot RESULT[Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'List'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 38 (EVAL_11:18)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 783 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1065 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called from Sub
19:37 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1244 (src...
19:38 mncharity just for completeness...
19:38 mncharity rakudo: my $s; $s
19:38 exp_evalbot RESULT[Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Undef'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 38 (EVAL_11:18)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 783 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1065 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called from Sub
19:38 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1244 (sr...
19:43 mncharity perl6: my %h = {2=>3,4=>5};
19:43 exp_evalbot kp6: RESULT[{ '4' => 5, '2' => 3,  }]
19:43 exp_evalbot ..pugs: RESULT[{("2" => 3), ("4" => 5)}]
19:43 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: RESULT[Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Closure'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 38 (EVAL_11:18)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 783 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1065 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called
19:43 exp_evalbot ..from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1244 (...
19:47 meteorjay joined #perl6
19:47 mncharity moritz_: re hints, I've used them as a shortcut rather than pawing through Snn.  it's an emacs/lisp thing, perhaps now eclipse, but it would be nice in editors to be able to "click" on constructs and get hints, perhaps even Snn sections.
19:48 mncharity also need a p6 QuickRef at some point.   http://www.zenspider.com/La​nguages/Ruby/QuickRef.html
19:49 moritz_ indeed, but atm perl 6 is still too unstable to really do something like that
19:50 mncharity really?  hmm
19:51 mncharity nice Google logo
19:51 lambdabot Title: Ruby QuickRef
19:51 pugs_svnbot r20496 | moritz++ | [evalbot] truncate rakudo's stack traces
19:53 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
19:53 moritz_ rakudo: foo bar garbage
19:53 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Could not invoke non-existent sub garbage␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_10:15)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 783 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1065 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called from Sub
19:53 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1244 (src/PCT/HLLCom...
19:54 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
19:54 moritz_ rakudo: foo bar garbage
19:54 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Could not invoke non-existent sub garbage␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_10:15)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 783 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1065 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called from Sub
19:54 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1244 (src/PCT/HLLCom...
19:54 moritz_ damn
19:54 moritz_ why doesn't this work?
19:55 pmurias mncharity: i think removing implementation specific hack is very important
19:55 pmurias * hacks
19:55 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
19:55 moritz_ rakudo: foo bar garbage
19:55 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Could not invoke non-existent sub garbage␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_10:15)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;eval' pc 783 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:458)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1065 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:587)␤called from Sub
19:55 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;command_line' pc 1244 (src/PCT/HLLCom...
19:56 PerlJam moritz_: what do you expect it to do?
19:56 moritz_ PerlJam: truncate the stack trace beginning from the first "called from Sub"
19:56 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
19:57 moritz_ rakudo: foo bar garbage
19:57 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[Could not invoke non-existent sub garbage␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_10:15)␤
19:57 mncharity agreed.  but choice of "which hacks to remove in which order" is key.  eg, implicit checking of node type would become very easy if/when Emit switches over to multi methods.  which would also make emitting smop easier (the original motivation for it).
19:57 moritz_ now that's better
19:57 Juerd moritz_: More than half I assume.
19:58 Juerd mncharity, moritz_: apache2 is forcefully killed and restarted every 3 hours because it has a huge memory leak
19:58 pmurias mncharity: you can use .isa
19:59 pugs_svnbot r20497 | moritz++ | [evalbot] fixed regex in previous commit
19:59 pmurias using if $n<foo> {} is confusing and error prone
20:00 PerlJam pmurias: tell that to the language designer  ;-)
20:00 mncharity the step by step choices of "next, do we: () add functionality X?  with what hacks?  () remove old hack Y?" are what take us from no-p6 at all to ultimate spec compliance.    re .isa, true. :)
20:00 mncharity err, do we have .isa?  .WHAT perhaps.
20:01 mncharity re error prone, yeah. :/
20:02 mncharity Juerd: :)  yipes.  image of flooding...
20:05 * moritz_ looks if there are new Apache packages in debian
20:07 pmurias PerlJam: i meant the elf version of $n<foo> {}
20:08 moritz_ Juerd: I just upgraded apache2
20:09 pmurias mncharity: i'll finish the $n<foo> -> $n.foo move, but it will require braking the moosish elf backend as moose uses different accesors than perl6
20:09 pmurias TimToady: perl6 uses $foo.bar = 123 accessors instead of $foo.bar(123), right?
20:10 moritz_ pmurias: if you declare 'has $.bar is rw', yes
20:11 pmurias found proof at last
20:11 Juerd moritz_: We'll see if that helps.
20:11 pmurias (($anonymous = 0) does answer).answer = 42;
20:12 Juerd moritz_: I have memory usage charts (time/memory) so I can see if it helps. For now, please keep the cronjob that kills apache.
20:12 Juerd http://c14.convolution.nl/munin/per​l6.nl/feather1.perl6.nl-memory.html
20:12 lambdabot Title: Munin :: perl6.nl :: feather1.perl6.nl :: memory, http://tinyurl.com/6kwoy5
20:13 Eevee http://www.php.net/~derick/meeting-notes.html#id44 -- apparently named parameters were considered for PHP6.  they have a slightly different take on the subject.
20:14 moritz_ "It also makes for messier code.". Sure.
20:15 pmurias ;)
20:15 Eevee this document is rather insightful
20:15 Eevee now I know why PHP is such a mess
20:15 Eevee the developers are just insane
20:15 moritz_ PHP traditionally makes the mistakes that Perl fixed 15 years ago
20:16 Ched- joined #perl6
20:16 Eevee it also invents new ones
20:16 Eevee there's a function that acts like s///e
20:17 b_jonas what about such a function?
20:17 Eevee except it takes just a string as the substituted part (since there are no lambdas), and substitutes captures *before* evaluating the string
20:17 b_jonas what?
20:17 Ched- joined #perl6
20:17 b_jonas no lambdas or anything?
20:17 Eevee no, php has no lambdas
20:17 b_jonas not even named subs like python?
20:17 pmurias b_jonas: ;)
20:17 b_jonas that is refs to named subs
20:17 Eevee functions aren't first-class objects in php
20:18 b_jonas eek
20:18 b_jonas that's just stupid
20:18 Eevee there are a few functions that accept function *names* as arguments, but that's all
20:18 b_jonas and there isn't even some hack like in c++ for it
20:18 b_jonas like a default method
20:18 b_jonas ?
20:18 b_jonas objects that you can call as functions, that is
20:18 fullermd Oh, but you can create them, by passing the function body as a quoted string into the concisely-named create_function().  That's all you need, right?
20:19 Eevee fullermd: of course!
20:19 b_jonas that's just really stupid
20:19 b_jonas I definitely won't use php then
20:19 Eevee anyway, the problem with this is
20:19 b_jonas functions are not first-class objects
20:19 moritz_ or read http://www.php.net/~derick/m​eeting-notes.html#safe-mode ;)
20:19 lambdabot Title: Minutes PHP Developers Meeting
20:19 b_jonas where did they get that from?
20:19 b_jonas just crazy
20:19 Eevee preg_replace('/(whatever)/e', 'foo($1)', "some string with whatever in it")
20:20 Eevee that will substitute 'whatever' into 'foo($1)' before trying to execute it
20:20 Eevee so it will try to eval, literally, 'foo(whatever)'
20:20 b_jonas that's like having to call quotemeta and construct a query with concatenation to insert something in a database
20:20 Eevee you can add quotes..  but then if your pattern captures something with quotes in it..
20:20 b_jonas does php force that too, btw, or is that just a usual practice?
20:20 Eevee b_jonas: this is how the PHP manual suggests preventing SQL injection: http://us3.php.net/manual/en/sec​urity.database.sql-injection.php
20:20 lambdabot Title: PHP: SQL Injection - Manual
20:21 Eevee well, down under 'avoiding techniques'
20:22 moritz_ I think there *are* DB libraries for PHP that use placeholders
20:22 wolverian there's create_function(), that creates an anonymous function by taking a string of code, creating a new function and returning its name
20:22 moritz_ but they aren't widespread
20:23 wolverian pointing out the obvious hilarity left to reader
20:23 Eevee moritz_: there are; mysqli
20:23 moritz_ wolverian: lol ;)
20:23 Eevee but even the manual doesn't suggest using them
20:23 moritz_ Eevee: that sounds like it only supports mysql...?
20:23 b_jonas well, that's stupid too
20:23 Eevee yes, there are separate sets of db functions for each rdbms
20:23 Eevee there's something on PEAR (php's attempt at a CPAN) that will abstract between them
20:24 ruoso joined #perl6
20:24 b_jonas ok, I'll avoid php even more from now on
20:24 b_jonas I mean, I'll avoid it more than just python or java which I dislike
20:25 * fullermd writes PHP for a living.
20:25 spinclad :(
20:25 b_jonas pity
20:25 Eevee fullermd: I am sorry
20:25 fullermd I thought about selling crack in schoolyards instead, but the hours are inconvenient.
20:25 moritz_ we can't be all winners, can we?
20:26 moritz_ lol
20:26 moritz_ fullermd++
20:26 spinclad you would get more respect though
20:26 b_jonas fullermd: are you writing thin wrapper functions for code with source in other language?
20:27 fullermd Well, I once had some code that used PHP's stillborn Java integration...   it wasn't stillborn enough.
20:28 fullermd Really, it's like way too many things in the field; it sucks, but it's often convenient, and if you know what you're doing it'll succeed in getting your work done.
20:29 mncharity pmurias: breaking Mooseish elf_f would be unfortunate.  the emitter should be hacked to keep at least bootstrap working.  even if that blocks the $n.foo = 3 assignment edit for now.
20:29 b_jonas do you have to work on some existing large codebase?
20:29 b_jonas also, is it good apart from PHP?
20:29 fullermd It takes a lot of rather-undeserved crap for the mountains of people who have no business programming at all who use it, and not enough for its real flaws under that.
20:30 pmurias mncharity: it's possible to make Moose create different accessors
20:30 fullermd Not really.  Lot of small codebases.  And a lot of built-up stuff over the years for new codebases.
20:30 moritz_ ps -el|grep apache|grep defunct|wc -l
20:30 moritz_ 9
20:30 moritz_ on feather
20:30 Eevee fullermd: don't worry, I give it plenty of crap for its actual problems, but only language nerds seem to care about those
20:30 Eevee "what's a closure?  that sounds dumb and useless I'm just doing web programming"
20:31 b_jonas fullermd: did you try to convert them to some non-php language?
20:32 fullermd Non-billable, in my "spare" time?   :p
20:36 mncharity pmurias: I believe stevan_(?) said p5 lvalue accessors ~just don't work~.  or some such.  no?
20:37 mncharity re hack emitter, I would be fine with the emitter special casing  $x.foo = ... .
20:38 stevan_ yeah lvalue sucks
20:38 stevan_ i think someone created a tied hack for it
20:38 stevan_ but that wont go in Moose
20:38 stevan_ you could use it here
20:39 stevan_ but then dont complain about performance anymore, cause whatever Moose didnt kill, the tie() will
20:40 pmurias stevan_: tie()? most cases won't be tied
20:41 pmurias as there is no need to overide the accessor in most cases
20:43 stevan_ well if you use any moose features at all, you will need too
20:43 stevan_ but we already discussed this
20:44 pmurias yes
20:45 mncharity rakudo: say {3=>4}
20:45 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[_block16␤]
20:46 mncharity pugs: say {3=>4}
20:46 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    Closing hash curly may not terminate a line;␤    please add a comma or a semicolon to disambiguate␤    at /tmp/RkWmrkqm2M line 2, column 1␤]
20:46 jrockway pugs: do { say { 3 => 4 } }
20:46 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[3        4␤␤]
20:46 mncharity danke
20:47 mncharity pugs: do { say { 3 => 4, 5=>6 } }
20:47 mncharity pugs: do { say { 3 => 4, 5=>6 } }
20:47 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
20:47 jrockway heh, pugs just hates you :D
20:47 mncharity lol
20:47 mncharity pugs: do { say { 3 => 4, 5=>6 } }
20:47 mncharity oky
20:47 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
20:47 pmurias does x01.pl serve a purpose anymore?
20:48 mncharity no, that can go
20:48 mncharity s/can/should/
20:48 mncharity kp6: say {3=4,5=>6}
20:48 exp_evalbot r20497: OUTPUT[error in Block at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib​/KindaPerl6/Grammar/Sub.pm line 753, <> line 1.␤*** Syntax Error in Block: missing closing curly bracket  ␤]
20:48 mncharity sigh
20:48 moritz_ oh, something caused a Segmentation fault in evalbot
20:48 mncharity kp6: say {3=>4,5=>6}
20:48 mncharity ah, not pugs specific.
20:48 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
20:49 mncharity perl6: 3
20:49 exp_evalbot kp6: RESULT[3]
20:49 exp_evalbot ..pugs: RESULT[3]
20:49 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: RESULT[3]
20:49 mncharity perl6: say {}
20:49 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[␤]
20:49 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    Closing hash curly may not terminate a line;␤    please add a comma or a semicolon to disambiguate␤    at /tmp/mAOMnEQBqY line 2, column 1␤]
20:49 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[_block16␤]
20:49 mncharity perl6: say {3=>4,5=>6}
20:49 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 4, line 1 column 4:␤say {3=>4,5=>6␤    ^ HERE␤]
20:50 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "\65279{"␤    expecting bare or pointy block construct, ":", identifier or operator␤    at /tmp/A0aRoI6rIS line 1, column 5␤]
20:50 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\x{ef}\x{bb}\x{bf}{3=>4,5"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤called from Sub 'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statementlist' pc 18329 (src/gen_grammar.pir:2735)␤called from Sub
20:50 exp_evalbot ..'parrot;Perl6::Grammar;statement_block' pc 15175 (src/gen_grammar.pir...
20:50 mncharity sigh
20:50 mncharity perl6: say {3=>4,5=>6}
20:50 mncharity curious
20:50 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
20:51 Chillance joined #perl6
20:52 Eevee wow, you killed evalbot
20:53 spinclad (let me guess, rakudo sees a utf2-encoded ucs2 bom)
20:53 cutz joined #perl6
20:55 spinclad *utf8-
21:00 mncharity spinclad: re utf8, nope, hand typed, no cut and paste.  something about the construct.
21:01 * wolverian thinks about a 2-bit unicode encoding
21:01 moritz_ mncharity: there still was a "nasty" character in your code
21:04 pmurias mncharity: i'm running make bootstrap_faster now
21:06 spinclad i see:  C<< perl6: say {3=>4,5=>6} >> with a box (zero-width under a space? bom?) between 'say' and '{...}'
21:07 Eevee oh, I just see a space
21:07 spinclad pugs saw it as \65279, rakudo as \x{ef}\x{bb}\x{bf}
21:07 pmurias could the evalbot be made bom-resistant?
21:07 Eevee what is vim's "identify char under cursor"?
21:08 kolibrie :asc
21:08 spinclad 65279 == 0xfeff
21:08 Eevee aha, or ga
21:08 Eevee bah, it copied as a space
21:11 spinclad perhaps another clue to when irc client passes boms
21:11 pugs_svnbot r20498 | pmurias++ | [elf] fixed elf_f_faster
21:11 pugs_svnbot r20498 | pmurias++ | proper accessor usage (breaks the moosish elf)
21:11 pmurias mncharity: should we have a file with know elf divergences?
21:13 pmurias s/divergences/non standard stuff used by elf/
21:13 mncharity good idea
21:14 mncharity re boom, hmm, I thought i just typed that, let's see...
21:14 mncharity perl6: say {3=>4,5=>6}
21:15 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
21:15 spinclad plain space this time
21:15 mncharity if there was a bom there, then gaim/gnome is even sicker than I thought...
21:15 spinclad no bom i'm sure
21:15 spinclad just a pair-bomb
21:15 mncharity oy
21:16 mncharity re divergences, good idea
21:16 pmurias mncharity: an name ideas?
21:16 pmurias shower&
21:16 mncharity TODO ? :)
21:16 mncharity pmurias: before you go,
21:16 pmurias go on
21:17 mncharity re elf broken, so is that next on your todo list, or are you hoping (/me looks over sholder) someone else will fix it?
21:17 mncharity :)
21:17 spinclad perl6: say {3=>4,}
21:17 exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[3   4␤]
21:17 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    Closing hash curly may not terminate a line;␤    please add a comma or a semicolon to disambiguate␤    at /tmp/4IrjpRWiA0 line 2, column 1␤]
21:17 exp_evalbot ..rakudo: OUTPUT[_block16␤]
21:18 pmurias it's rather low on my todo list as it would involve buying a better machine to work on elf moosish
21:18 mncharity the later is ok, but it needs fixing.
21:19 mncharity hmm, "later" is ambigous there.  english--.  or is it "latter"?  anyway, I can look into it, but just let me know.
21:19 mncharity btw, pmurias++ ;)
21:21 mncharity re say, given that say.t suggests there's a method .say, it would seem to make sense for *say(*@a) to be just @a.map{$_.say}.join("")
21:22 mncharity pmurias: re todo, ok, I'll look.
21:23 diakopter ugh; a widespread virus/trojan/rootkit outbreak here at my office site.
21:26 spinclad re say, that would put each element on its own line?
21:27 spinclad and join ... what?
21:27 spinclad @a.join('').say
21:27 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
21:28 mncharity pmurias: did you try  make rebuild  on a clean checkout?  I quickly get a  ../elf_f_faster0 -x -o ../elf_f_faster1 Elf_Faster.pm  compile failure.
21:28 mncharity so elf_f_faster self compilation is broken too.
21:29 mncharity diakopter: SONY?
21:30 mncharity spinclad: oh,right.  duh.   my $say_to_string is context = 1;  ...  sigh.   build .say on a .say_to_s ?  then recurse on the .say_to_s
21:32 pmurias mncharity: was in elf_f_src when comitted
21:34 pmurias removed the file elf_f* accidently when removing junk
21:35 pmurias rebootstraping...
21:35 diakopter mncharity: not SONY...
21:43 mncharity okayyy, have ugly kludge handling of pairs and hash&array literals.  really have to do List's for real some day.  but for now...
21:43 iblechbot joined #perl6
21:44 mncharity will commit later.  bbl... hmm, or tomorrow.
21:44 Juerd wolverian: 2 bit unicode would have to be: first bit 0 => this is the last bit for this codepoint, 1 => another bit coming up... and then the second bit encoding the codepoint somehow. Of course the 1/0 of the first bit could be reversed :)
21:45 pmurias the Call and Apply nodes are a hack
21:45 mncharity pmurias: I'll backlog.  Just let me know if there's anything you would like me to do.  bootstraps have great "ARRG!*%^@%%" and 'pulling out hair' frustration potential.
21:45 wolverian Juerd, yeah. :)
21:45 mncharity re hack, oh yes.
21:45 Juerd wolverian: I don't think it would be much less efficient than utf32 ;)
21:45 Juerd (sizewise)
21:46 wolverian sounds like it'd be utf33, in practice :)
21:46 mncharity right thing is perhaps to check if there's a lexical override in scope, and if not, apply a macro containing an inline_p5 construct.  but no macros yet.  so the macros are inlined in the emitter, and the absence of overrides is assumed.
21:46 pmurias mncharity: my mid term plan is to have the sm0p grammar running
21:47 mncharity that would be very neat
21:48 pmurias i plan to copy the kp6 EmitPerl5Regex approach
21:48 pugs_svnbot r20499 | pmurias++ | [elf] fixed elf_f_faster for real ;)
21:49 Eevee that sounds like how my commit messages go.  "fixed X"  "really fixed X"  "found another bug in X"  "fuck"
21:50 Tene hehe
21:50 pugs_svnbot r20500 | pmurias++ | [elf] an emitter with token {...} support stub
21:51 pmurias Eevee: the last one was figuring that i typed rm elf_f*
21:51 mncharity yay.  got to go.  I'll sync and commit later.  re approach, not sure what that is, but np.  you saw misc/elfish_smop/, yes?
21:51 * mncharity runs... &
21:51 pmurias mncharity: yes
21:55 cognominal_ what is the difference between the rule \s and \h ?
21:56 moritz_ \h = horizontal whitespace
21:56 moritz_ tab, space
21:56 cognominal_ it seems that  \s  == <[\h\v]>
21:56 moritz_ \v = vertical spaces (newline, vertical tab
21:57 moritz_ aye
21:57 cognominal_ do I get that right?
21:57 moritz_ yes
21:57 cognominal_ seems that \h is silently missong from PGE
21:57 Tene It is?  That would explain some things.
21:58 moritz_ ticket!
21:58 explorer joined #perl6
21:58 b_jonas what's PGE?
21:58 moritz_ parrot grammar engine
21:58 b_jonas oh, this is perl6
21:58 b_jonas I thought it was #perl
21:58 moritz_ ;)
21:59 cognominal_ yea, one need context to get the acronym soup
22:00 moritz_ cognominal_: or online IRC logs that explain acronyms ;)
22:01 cognominal_ I dream to add convestation system to the IRC protocol so that oped people can group and tag threads for later peruse
22:02 moritz_ cognominal_: I'll provide you with ~ 1Mio lines of IRC logs that you can tag, for testing purposes ;)
22:06 gbacon joined #perl6
22:06 Psyche^ joined #perl6
22:06 cognominal_ I have way more on my linux box.
22:07 moritz_ cognominal_: that's just the #perl6 and #parrot IRC log database
22:10 Tene looks like I have 713M of irc logs.
22:10 moritz_ Tene: compressed?
22:10 Tene moritz_: no. :(
22:11 moritz_ Tene: I bzip2 my logs, and have about 50M atm
22:12 gbacon joined #perl6
22:12 * Tene bzip2 now.
22:13 gbacon joined #perl6
22:13 fullermd joined #perl6
22:19 * moritz_ heads off to bead
22:20 Auzon @karma c
22:20 lambdabot c has a karma of 15
22:20 Auzon @karma C
22:20 lambdabot C has a karma of 15
22:20 Auzon Hm.
22:20 Eevee @karma perl
22:20 lambdabot perl has a karma of -1
22:20 Eevee oh dear.  this does not bode well
22:21 Auzon perl++
22:21 Auzon @karma english
22:21 lambdabot english has a karma of 0
22:21 Auzon @karma php
22:21 lambdabot php has a karma of -1
22:22 Eevee php--
22:22 Auzon It seems that most inanimate systems only get --'d
22:22 Eevee except C, which has somehow found a loophole despite being inanimate
22:22 Auzon due to cpp
22:22 Eevee right
22:23 Auzon @karma c++
22:23 lambdabot c++ has a karma of -8
22:23 Auzon Heh.
22:23 Auzon @karma c
22:23 lambdabot c has a karma of 15
22:23 Auzon Oh, good, it didn't cascade
22:23 rindolf joined #perl6
22:29 Southen_ joined #perl6
22:36 fullermd joined #perl6
22:47 pmurias @karma python
22:47 lambdabot python has a karma of 0
22:53 rindolf perlbot: karma python
22:53 perlbot Karma for python: 29
22:55 Auzon Odd.
23:05 pbuetow_ perlbot: karma java
23:05 perlbot Karma for java: -45
23:05 pbuetow_ @karma java
23:05 lambdabot java has a karma of -23
23:05 pbuetow_ hehe
23:07 Eevee ouch
23:07 Eevee are either of these tied to purl's karma on irc.perl.org?
23:13 Auzon I don't think so.
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