Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-05-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 mncharity :)  so backlog is a transient, rather than a focus shift?
00:00 TimToady but I do expect the code to stabilize somewhat once I get the quoting sorted out
00:00 TimToady and I do expect to have more time in the next few weeks
00:00 mncharity ok.  quoting will be nifty.
00:02 mncharity It's the   grep NONSPEC std.rb | wc #=> 62  which is getting painful.
00:03 TimToady basically, the LTM works fine for derived grammars, but there were various spots in STD that should have used derived grammars that didn't
00:03 TimToady quoting, regex, etc
00:04 TimToady and certainly some of your NONSPEC is due to lack of LTM, isn't it?
00:04 TimToady STD will not only be making LTM possible, but relying on it
00:04 TimToady as it already does, which is why there's no longer <nofat>, for example
00:06 mncharity re 'due to lack of LTM?', my impression is mostly not.  more that random language feature x isn't parsed by the existing rules.
00:06 alanhaggai joined #perl6
00:06 TimToady how easy would it be to generate a list of those?
00:06 * mncharity looks...
00:06 TimToady (I realize many of them have floated past here already... :)
00:08 Eevee how exactly does {*} work
00:09 mncharity http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log_search/perl6?search=TimToady%3A+%28&amp;action=search&amp;timespan=&amp;text=checked
00:09 lambdabot Title: #perl6 irc log search, http://tinyurl.com/63x8or
00:09 TimToady as far as the parser is concerned, it's just a closure that executes *
00:09 TimToady which does nothing
00:09 TimToady however, the idea is that it's an easily recognizable nothing that you can attach various reduction hooks to via preprocessing
00:10 Eevee oh dear
00:10 TimToady so any given compiler is allowed to substitute other reduction actions at that point
00:10 TimToady presumably keyed by the comment out to the right
00:11 TimToady as an official side effect, it's also equivalent to :: in terminating the longest token
00:11 TimToady though it doesn't affect backtracking as :: does
00:13 mncharity The  "TimToady: (" irc comments were this month's series.  There's more in the NONSPEC lines of std.rb, and they tend to explain themselves, though some have already been incorporated in STD.pm.
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00:16 TimToady biab & # decommuting from $dayjob
00:17 alanhaggai joined #perl6
00:17 * Eevee skims through S05
00:23 pugs_svnbot r20598 | putter++ | [STD_red] Unbreak statement modifiers.  Eg, 'say 3 if 0'.
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00:40 mncharity TimToady: (n+1) The current STD.pm's quote:rx using quotenibble doesn't seem to permit adverbial modifiers, eg, 's:P5///'.
00:43 TimToady that's part of the refactor
00:43 Juerd What's a quotenibble?
00:44 TimToady look for user-defined quotes, then nibble the insides
00:44 TimToady but in my copy it has worn down to "quibble"  :)
00:45 TimToady and the modifiers like :P5 are handled by derivation: <quibble(Perl::Q.tweak(:qq).tweak($<quote_mod>))>
00:45 TimToady well, :P5 would be based on regex language, not qq language, but same basic idea
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00:48 TimToady dinner &
00:58 mncharity ok.  look forward to it.
01:00 * spinclad also looks forward to TT's dinner  # dinner:2nd(:courtesy($TT))
01:05 * mncharity just can bring himself to add the 700 lines of Class::Multimethods inline into EmitSimpleP5.pm.  not sure how to proceed...
01:06 alanhaggai joined #perl6
01:06 mncharity edit elsewhere... rewrite in mostly p6... ...?
01:06 mncharity *can't
01:07 mncharity If anyone has a good grasp of how p6 core oo works, I'd love to sketch a p6 oo on javascript architecture...
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01:08 mncharity aside from "it runs in peoples' browsers", js is also just about the only prototype-based oo language in widespread use, and thus perhaps a natural for supporting p6 oo.
01:10 Eevee mm, still don't like having vars named $/ and $¢
01:10 Eevee p6 oo on js would be interesting
01:10 mncharity ruby is another candidate, but it has a nasty habit of "almost but not quite real" "it looks like x, but it's faked".
01:11 mncharity * s//x looks like an object/
01:14 mncharity re js interesting, indeed.  could be notably better than my current ruby generating js games.
01:15 mncharity speaking of which...
01:18 tiglionabbit how do you mean ruby fakes things?
01:18 tiglionabbit like how it doesn't have attributes, but accessors look and act just like them?
01:19 ron joined #perl6
01:19 mncharity hmm... it's clear elf has insufficient visibility at present.  rouso's wiki pages speaking of using kp6, which would be clearly silly at this point...
01:19 ron rakudo: my $a2 = 3; $a2++ *= 5; say $a2;
01:19 exp_evalbot rakudo r27950 OUTPUT[4␤]
01:20 tiglionabbit also I'm with vee about being careful about allowing operators in variable names -- that makes some special cases in the parser, right?  (then again, I guess it doesn't matter if it's no longer interpreted)
01:20 mncharity STD_gray should probably stall, waiting for a STD.pm update and STD_red sync timesink...
01:21 Auzon mncharity: I've been thinking about blogging about elf, and I'd send it to the SoC2008 planet. Maybe I can get it quoted on Perlbuzz too, if you're interested in some visibility.
01:21 mncharity tiglionabbit: sorry, I overlooked your question, let's see...
01:23 mncharity re 'how do you mean ruby fakes things?', eg, methods pretend to be objects, unless you try to use them in a not-common-case manner, at which point you find they are an object-like facade around a more limited C core construct.
01:24 tiglionabbit I think I need an example to understand what you mean there
01:25 mncharity Yeah.  Trying to remember an example.  When doing anything aggressive you tend to keep hitting them... let's see...
01:25 tiglionabbit hehe, aggressive
01:26 tiglionabbit I'm trying to remember if/how you can refer to methods without executing them
01:27 mncharity Auzon: re visibility, the difficulty is how to get p6 compiler writer types excited about it, without generating a lot of interest by other people, for whom it will clearly be a disappointment (at least until named arguments and user objects are working better).
01:27 ron joined #perl6
01:28 tiglionabbit then again you can always wrap stuff with lambda
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01:29 tiglionabbit or use __send__ ...
01:29 tiglionabbit huh
01:29 tiglionabbit funny how I didn't think about this when I was using ruby
01:30 mncharity p6 has such noxious history out of parrot of saying things work when they don't, at least around Boston.pm and a few other samples, the primary characteristic of attitudes towards p6, is "I'll believe that bogus thing works when I actually see it".  So expectation management seems at this point critically important.
01:30 Auzon I see.
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01:31 mncharity soo... not sure how to deal with that.
01:31 tiglionabbit make stone soup
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01:31 tiglionabbit make it work but be crappy and slow, then get people excited enough to fix it up
01:33 mncharity tiglionabbit: re slow, we've tried that... didn't work, people got burned out on it.
01:34 tiglionabbit hm?
01:34 tiglionabbit what do you mean?
01:35 mncharity kp6 was another p6 implementation.  it was slow.  that seemed a key aspect of peoples' individual decisions to cease working on it.
01:36 tiglionabbit yeah but parrot has something else going for it, right?  The common language interface?
01:36 alanhaggai joined #perl6
01:37 tiglionabbit you just have to market it as tracer bullets.  Like, "We used some stupid solutions in various places.  Now good compiler designers can help us make it better"
01:38 tiglionabbit it's not alive until it works
01:38 wknight8111 good compiler designers are key
01:39 tiglionabbit why would people abandon kp6 for this, anyway?
01:39 tiglionabbit other than the cli
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01:40 tiglionabbit (for parrot I mean)
01:41 mncharity re 'refer to methods without executing them', http://ruby-doc.org/core-1.9/classes/Module.html#M001273 , Method, etc.
01:41 lambdabot Title: Class: Module
01:43 tiglionabbit instance_method(symbol) okay
01:43 tiglionabbit .bind(object).call ?
01:44 tiglionabbit a bit obtuse, but oh well
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01:46 mncharity Auzon: sooo.... not sure what to do.
01:46 mncharity but end of day for me.
01:46 mncharity good night all &
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01:49 tiglionabbit I am kind of worried that the project is named after the dead parrot skit
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02:03 japhb tiglionabbit: Parrot is not named after the python sketch, though of course that reference gets used at times.  It's named after an April Fool's joke.
02:05 tiglionabbit I see
02:06 tiglionabbit hahah, like how people like to put out virus alerts about viruses that don't exist yet so no one will suspect when they actually make the virus
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02:40 Khisanth japhb: a joke gone bad seems worse :)
02:42 japhb Khisanth: Parrot?  I think of it as the joke that made good.  :-)
02:45 Auzon pugs: class Test {method Str {"qwerty"}}
02:45 exp_evalbot RESULT[\method :($__SELF__ is rw is ref, @_, %_) "$_" := "Scalar" #<Scalar:0xb7b28354>␤                                         "@_" := "Array" #<Array:0xb7228d28>␤                                         "%_" := "Hash" #<Hash:0xb7b2835c>␤                                         "&?ROUTINE" :=
02:45 exp_evalbot .."Sub" #<Sub:0xb6604cec>␤                            ...
02:45 Auzon pugs: class Test {method Str {"qwerty"}}; my $t = Test.new; say ~$t;
02:45 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<obj:Test>␤]
02:46 Auzon pugs: class Test {multi prefix:<~> is deep {"qwerty"}}; my $t = Test.new; say ~$t;
02:46 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<obj:Test>␤]
02:47 Auzon pugs: class Test {multi prefix:<~> {"qwerty"}}; my $t = Test.new; say ~$t;
02:47 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<obj:Test>␤]
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03:19 Auzon pugs: say 1_000
03:19 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1000␤]
03:19 Auzon pugs: say 1_0_0_0_000
03:19 exp_evalbot OUTPUT[1000000␤]
03:25 Auzon TimToady: I don't see _ as a numeric separator mentioned in the spec explicitly, though it is used in the versioning comparison part of S02 (right before the heading "Context"). Is it still valid?
03:27 Eevee could swear I've seen that in the spec somewhere
03:28 Eevee http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#Literals
03:28 lambdabot Title: S02
03:28 Eevee A single underscore is allowed only between any two digits in a literal number, where the definition of digit depends on the radix.
03:28 Auzon doh. Sorry TimToady
03:32 pmichaud @tell TimToady   where is 'does' parsed, as in "class ABC does XYZ { ... }"  ?
03:32 lambdabot Consider it noted.
03:34 Eevee how will the grammar handle lexically-scoped custom operators?
03:35 pmichaud operators are just subs
03:35 pmichaud so it's the same as lexically-scoped subs
03:35 pmichaud operators just have a funny name.
03:36 Eevee except sub names don't tend to be stuck together with no intermediate illegal character
03:37 pmichaud all characters are legal in sub names :-)
03:37 Eevee well okay yes, but not bare  :P
03:37 audreyt pmichaud: "does" is parsed as trait_auxiliary, mentioned around S12:1436 (or did I miss what you were asking about?)
03:37 pmichaud audreyt: I meant in STD.pm
03:38 pbuetow_ joined #perl6
03:38 audreyt it should be under rule trait_auxiliary:will in line 2607
03:38 audreyt but it's probably just missing?
03:38 pmichaud yes, I think it's missing.
03:38 pmichaud thanks.
03:39 audreyt or maybe it falls under the general (no special rule needed) trait_auxiliary rule
03:39 audreyt line 335ish. not sure
03:39 pmichaud hmmmmm
03:39 audreyt i.e. it's parsed because it's defined in the symtable under the t_a categ
03:39 audreyt instead of needing a special rule.
03:39 pmichaud right.
03:41 pmichaud seems like we should have a trait_auxiliary:general rule somewhere in STD.pm then
03:41 pmichaud but you answered my question, thanks.
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08:56 dolmen perl6: say "Salut, les potes!!";
08:56 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Salut, les potes!!␤]
08:56 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Salut, les potes!!␤]
08:56 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Salut, les potes!!␤]
08:56 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Salut, les potes!!␤]
08:57 dolmen perl6: say <1 2 3>.perl;
08:57 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[( '1', '2', '3' )␤]
08:57 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[("1", "2", "3")␤]
08:57 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[["1", "2", "3"]␤]
08:57 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[["1","2","3"]␤]
09:07 dolmen perl6: say (1^..3).perl;
09:07 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 4, line 1 column 4:␤say (1^..3).perl␤    ^ HERE␤]
09:07 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[(2, 3)␤]
09:07 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Could not invoke non-existent sub infix:^..␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 35 (EVAL_11:19)␤
09:07 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at (eval 14) line 3, near "^.."␤ at ./elf_f_faster line 4492␤]
09:09 dolmen elf?
09:09 cognominal_ comment allez vous yau de poele?
09:10 dolmen ;)
09:15 lg joined #perl6
09:15 lg perl6 say hello
09:15 lg perl6 say 'hello';
09:15 lg perlbot say 'hello';
09:16 lg perlbot: say 'hello';
09:16 lg perl6: say 'hello';
09:16 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[hello␤]
09:16 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[hello␤]
09:16 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[hello␤]
09:16 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[hello␤]
09:16 dolmen perl6: say (1^..3).perl;
09:16 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 4, line 1 column 4:␤say (1^..3).perl␤    ^ HERE␤]
09:16 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[(2, 3)␤]
09:16 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Could not invoke non-existent sub infix:^..␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 35 (EVAL_11:19)␤
09:16 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at (eval 14) line 3, near "^.."␤ at ./elf_f_faster line 4492␤]
09:16 dolmen perl6: say (1..3).perl;
09:16 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 4, line 1 column 4:␤say (1..3).perl␤    ^ HERE␤]
09:16 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[(1, 2, 3)␤]
09:16 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[[1, 2, 3]␤]
09:16 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Use of uninitialized value in range (or flip) at (eval 14) line 3.␤""␤]
09:17 dolmen perl6: say (1..3).WHAT;
09:17 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 4, line 1 column 4:␤say (1..3).WHAT␤    ^ HERE␤]
09:17 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Array␤]
09:17 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[List␤]
09:17 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Use of uninitialized value in range (or flip) at (eval 14) line 3.␤Str␤]
09:21 dolmen perl6: say 1..3 xx 2;
09:21 lg perl6: my @stuff=1,2,4,foo;say @stuff[3]
09:21 lg perl6: my @stuff=1,2,4,foo;say @stuff[3]
09:21 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
09:21 dolmen perl6: say (1..3 xx 2).perl;
09:21 lg perl6: my @stuff=1,2,4,foo;say @stuff[3]
09:21 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
09:21 lg perl6: my @stuff=1,2,4,foo;say @stuff[3]
09:22 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 11, line 1 column 11:␤my @stuff=1,2,4,foo;say @stuff[3␤           ^ HERE␤]
09:22 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&foo"␤    at /tmp/cbQGmKGN2b line 1, column 17-20␤]
09:22 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Could not invoke non-existent sub foo␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 42 (EVAL_11:23)␤
09:22 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::foo called at (eval 14) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f_faster line 4492␤]
09:22 lg perl6: my @stuff=1,2,4,'foo';say @stuff[3]
09:22 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 11, line 1 column 11:␤my @stuff=1,2,4,'foo';say @stuff[3␤           ^ HERE␤]
09:22 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[foo␤]
09:22 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[foo␤]
09:22 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[foo␤]
09:27 edpratomo joined #perl6
09:29 dolmen perl6: class Toto { has $name; }
09:29 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: RESULT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤    KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x824be04)', 'APPLY') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169␤
09:29 exp_evalbot ..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824be04)', 'APPLY') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/Kin...
09:29 exp_evalbot ..pugs: RESULT[undef]
09:29 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: RESULT[Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 38 (EVAL_11:18)␤
09:29 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: RESULT[undef␤]
09:29 dolmen perl6: class Toto { has $name; } say "Hello";
09:29 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Hello␤]
09:29 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Hello␤]
09:29 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "say \"Hello"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤
09:29 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Parse error in: /tmp/RApF9p0jBM␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: class Toto { has $name; } say ␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:98:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤  STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
09:29 exp_evalbot ..STD_red/std.rb:210:in `_UNIT'␤  ./../STD_red/STD_red_run:108:in `...
09:30 chris2 joined #perl6
09:31 dolmen perl6: class Toto { has $.name; } say "Hello";
09:31 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Hello␤]
09:31 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Hello␤]
09:31 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "say \"Hello"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤
09:31 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Parse error in: /tmp/ueGJQGwME9␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: class Toto { has $.name; } say␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:98:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤  STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
09:31 exp_evalbot ..STD_red/std.rb:210:in `_UNIT'␤  ./../STD_red/STD_red_run:108:in `...
09:31 dolmen perl6: class Toto { has $.name; }; say "Hello";
09:31 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Hello␤]
09:31 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Hello␤]
09:31 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Hello␤]
09:31 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Hello␤]
09:36 dolmen perl6: class Student { has $.name; }.new( name => 'Toto');
09:36 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 29, line 1 column 29:␤class Student { has $.name; }.new( name => 'Toto')␤                             ^ HERE␤]
09:36 exp_evalbot ..pugs: RESULT[Scalar.new(("name" => "Toto"),)]
09:36 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ".new( name"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤
09:36 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Parse error in: /tmp/fWeD1io3iO␤panic at line 1 column 29 (pos 29): Statement not terminated properly␤WHERE: class Student { has $.name; }.new( name => 'Toto');␤WHERE:                             /\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:98:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:355:in
09:36 exp_evalbot ..`eat_terminator'␤  STD_red/std.rb:269:in `block in statementlist'␤  STD_re...
09:37 dolmen perl6: say class Student { has $.name; }.new( name => 'Toto' ).perl;
09:37 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling HASH(0x8e52364) on invalid object:$VAR1 = 'new';␤␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 128␤     main::DISPATCH('new', 'HASH(0x8e52364)') called at - line 14␤]
09:37 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[pugs: *** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤    at /tmp/ACdcNXZnBc line 1, column 1␤]
09:37 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ".new( name"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤
09:37 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Parse error in: /tmp/8eVeyGwezi␤panic at line 1 column 33 (pos 33): Statement not terminated properly␤WHERE:  class Student { has $.name; }.new( name => 'Toto' ).perl;␤WHERE:                              /\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:98:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:355:in
09:37 exp_evalbot ..`eat_terminator'␤  STD_red/std.rb:269:in `block in statementlist'␤...
09:37 dolmen perl6: say class { has $.name; }.new( name => 'Toto' ).perl;
09:37 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling HASH(0x8e53388) on invalid object:$VAR1 = 'new';␤␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 128␤     main::DISPATCH('new', 'HASH(0x8e53388)') called at - line 13␤]
09:37 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[pugs: *** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤    at /tmp/MhIKvBsKgW line 1, column 1␤]
09:37 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[attempt to define attribute '' outside of class at line 1, near "; }.new( n"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤
09:37 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Parse error in: /tmp/1E81VG1WFB␤panic at line 1 column 25 (pos 25): Statement not terminated properly␤WHERE: say class { has $.name; }.new( name => 'Toto' ).perl;␤WHERE:                         /\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:98:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:355:in
09:37 exp_evalbot ..`eat_terminator'␤  STD_red/std.rb:269:in `block in statementlist'␤  STD_red/...
09:51 dolmen perl6: sub noop { ; } ; say noop.perl;
09:51 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[error in Block at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Grammar/Sub.pm line 362, <> line 1.␤*** Syntax Error in sub '': missing closing curly bracket ␤]
09:51 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[undef␤]
09:51 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Missing '}' at line 1, near "; } ; say "␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤
09:51 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Use of uninitialized value in join or string at ./elf_f_faster line 159.␤undef␤]
09:51 dolmen perl6: sub noop {  } ; say noop.perl;
09:51 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling perl on invalid object:$VAR1 = undef;␤␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 128␤        main::DISPATCH('undef', 'perl') called at - line 24␤]
09:51 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[undef␤]
09:51 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ".perl;"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤
09:51 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[undef␤]
09:52 lg perl6: class Glass { has $content=0; method fill { $content++ }; method empty {$content--}}; class Pint is a Glass {}
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09:52 dolmen perl6: sub noop {  } ; say noop().perl;
09:52 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling perl on invalid object:$VAR1 = 0;␤␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 128␤    main::DISPATCH(0, 'perl') called at - line 24␤]
09:52 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[undef␤]
09:52 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in find_method()␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 35 (EVAL_10:16)␤
09:52 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[undef␤]
09:53 dolmen perl6: say (1..2).json;
09:53 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 4, line 1 column 4:␤say (1..2).json␤    ^ HERE␤]
09:53 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** No such method in class Array: "&json"␤    at /tmp/1utekgeVTE line 1, column 5-16␤]
09:53 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Method 'json' not found for invocant of class 'List'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 49 (EVAL_13:20)␤
09:53 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Use of uninitialized value in range (or flip) at (eval 14) line 3.␤Can't call method "json" without a package or object reference at (eval 14) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f_faster line 4492␤]
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09:58 lg perl6: say 'hi folks'.WHAT
09:58 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Str␤]
09:58 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Str␤]
09:58 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Str␤]
09:58 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Str␤]
09:59 lg perl6: say Pari.WHAT
09:59 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling WHAT on invalid object:$VAR1 = undef;␤␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 128␤        main::DISPATCH('undef', 'WHAT') called at - line 11␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&Pari"␤    at /tmp/OCvysJRYjm line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in find_method()␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 28 (EVAL_11:16)␤
09:59 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[STRING␤]
09:59 dolmen perl6: say Int.WHAT
09:59 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Int␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Int␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Int␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[STRING␤]
09:59 dolmen perl6: say Num.WHAT
09:59 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Num␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Num␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Num␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[STRING␤]
09:59 lg perl6: say Pair.WHAT
09:59 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Pair␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Pair␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Pair␤]
09:59 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[STRING␤]
10:02 dolmen perl6: say Role.WHAT
10:03 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Class␤]
10:03 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Role␤]
10:03 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[./parrot: error while loading shared libraries: /home/evalenv/parrot/blib/lib/libparrot.so.0.6.2: invalid ELF header␤]
10:03 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[STRING␤]
10:03 cognominal_ perl6: say hash( a =>1, :b<2>, c(3), :d, :!e )
10:03 dolmen perl6: say Class.WHAT
10:03 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 8, line 1 column 8:␤say hash( a =>1, :b<2>, c(3), :d, :!e ␤        ^ HERE␤]
10:03 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&c"␤    at /tmp/rDm19B1sAv line 1, column 25-29␤]
10:03 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Could not invoke non-existent sub c␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 40 (EVAL_11:21)␤
10:03 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::c called at (eval 14) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f_faster line 4492␤]
10:03 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[Class␤]
10:03 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Class␤]
10:03 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in find_method()␤current instr.: 'parrot;P6object;WHAT' pc 107 (runtime/parrot/library/P6object.pir:123)␤
10:03 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[STRING␤]
10:04 cognominal_ perl6: say hash( a =>1, :b<2>, :c(3), :d, :!e )
10:04 dolmen il n'a pas aimé
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10:05 cognominal_ rakudo: say hash( a =>1, :b<2>, :c(3), :d, :!e )
10:05 exp_evalbot joined #perl6
10:05 pmichaud rakudo doesn't like that?  I'm a bit surprised.
10:05 dolmen rakudo svn is currently broken
10:06 cognominal_ it works on my computer, that's rakudo from Friday morning
10:06 pmichaud wow, that's old.
10:06 cognominal_ I mean the rakudo of Friday works well for that statement
10:06 pmichaud right.
10:06 dolmen current rev 27957 is broken
10:06 cognominal_ jonathan talks is going well
10:06 pmichaud jonathan++
10:07 pmichaud wish I was there.
10:07 cognominal_ jaws are dropping on the power of rakudo
10:07 pmichaud is it rakudo or Perl 6 that jaws are dropping for?  ;-)
10:07 dolmen Class 'Perl6Array' already registered!
10:07 cognominal_ he is demonstrating live
10:07 cognominal_ hopeful on a buid that works
10:07 dolmen jonathan++
10:09 cognominal_ I did yesterday a live presentation on pct doing a simple grammar (no code generation), and that was fun
10:09 pmichaud yes, pct is fun also.
10:09 cognominal_ Francois Perrad was there to help me to fix my mistakes
10:09 dolmen pmichaud: sorry, make clean && make fixed the error
10:09 pmichaud dolmen: Whew!
10:10 dolmen perl6: say True.WHAT;
10:10 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[DISPATCH: calling WHAT on invalid object:$VAR1 = undef;␤␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 128␤        main::DISPATCH('undef', 'WHAT') called at - line 11␤]
10:10 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[Bool␤]
10:10 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[Int␤]
10:10 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[STRING␤]
10:10 dolmen so, Bool or Int ?
10:11 pmichaud S12 says:
10:11 pmichaud Two built-in enums are:
10:11 pmichaud our bit enum *bool <False True>; our bit enum *taint <Untainted Tainted>;
10:11 cognominal_ dolmen, I suppose that Bool is a subset of int
10:12 pmichaud so that implies to me that True is a bit
10:12 dolmen say (1 + (1 | 2)).perl;
10:13 dolmen perl6: say (1 + (1 | 2)).perl;
10:13 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[2␤3␤]
10:13 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[(2 | 3)␤]
10:13 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27957: OUTPUT[any("2", "3")␤]
10:13 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[4␤]
10:13 cognominal_ jonathan is localizing the example in his presentation.
10:13 dolmen a stringification occured...
10:13 pmichaud localizing?
10:13 cognominal_ I gave him a very bad pun
10:13 pmichaud ahhhhh
10:14 cognominal_ yesterday he was telling me about him presenting some slide titled "No more SM"
10:15 cognominal_ about perl5  m//sm
10:15 cognominal_ so I did the same with a dominatrix picture
10:25 lg perl6: say (1 + ((1|3) | 2)).perl
10:25 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[2␤3␤4␤3␤]
10:25 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[(2 | 3 | 4)␤]
10:25 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27960: OUTPUT[get_string() not implemented in class 'Junction'␤current instr.: 'infix_junction_helper' pc 6230 (src/gen_builtins.pir:4216)␤
10:25 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[4␤]
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10:28 lg perl6: say (1 + (1|3 | 2)).perl
10:28 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[2␤4␤2␤3␤]
10:28 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[(2 | 3 | 4)␤]
10:28 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27960: OUTPUT[any("2", "4", "3")␤]
10:28 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[4␤]
10:29 lg perl6: say ( (1|3 | 2)).perl
10:29 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[1␤3␤1␤2␤]
10:29 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[(1 | 2 | 3)␤]
10:29 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27960: OUTPUT[any(1, 3, 2)␤]
10:29 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[3␤]
10:30 lg perl6: say (1 + (1|3 | 2)).perl
10:30 exp_evalbot kp6 r20598: OUTPUT[2␤4␤2␤3␤]
10:30 exp_evalbot ..pugs: OUTPUT[(2 | 3 | 4)␤]
10:30 exp_evalbot ..rakudo r27960: OUTPUT[any("2", "4", "3")␤]
10:30 exp_evalbot ..elf r20598: OUTPUT[4␤]
10:32 dolmen time for lunch...
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11:42 Juerd Maybe this is a silly idea, but I find myself typing this a lot:
11:42 Juerd return "foo bar baz" if -e "foo bar baz";
11:43 Juerd Would be neat if you could write that as:
11:43 Juerd return that if -e "foo bar baz";
11:43 Juerd if -e "foo bar baz" { return that }
11:43 masak Juerd: what about `return $_ if -e $_ for 'foo bar baz'`?
11:44 Juerd Works but looks /worse/ than what I have no.
11:44 masak hm
11:44 Juerd s/no/now/
11:45 masak so 'that' is the last thing sent in as a first argument to a function?
11:45 Juerd Yep
11:45 Juerd It would not be a variable.
11:45 masak of course not. variables have sigils :)
11:45 Juerd Well, in Perl 6 perhaps a twigil might make sense
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11:46 Juerd But I was thinking of "that" as a construct with very limited visibility.
11:47 Juerd For all I care, it's just a macro that somehow knows the previous expression and evaluates it again.
11:47 wolverian that sounds like a race condition anyway :)
11:47 Juerd It is.
11:47 Juerd But there's no way to prevent the race condition with these kinds of things *anyway*
11:47 Juerd So adding another race doesn't bother me much.
11:48 Juerd Anyway, I'm not sure if this is implementable at all. It has all the ingredients of $& to be scary.
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13:42 pmichaud given 'foo bar baz' { -e $_ && return $_ }
13:45 pmichaud "jaws are dropping"  :-)
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14:33 masak pmichaud: I've revently been told that $_ can be clobbered within a given. what are your thoughts on that?
14:33 masak s/revently/recently/
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14:52 masak what's the semantics of an INIT block inside eval'ed code?
14:52 masak S04 says "Code that is generated at run time can still fire off CHECK and INIT blocks, though of course those blocks can't do things that would require travel back in time."
14:52 masak could someone give an example of a thing that would require such travel?
14:53 masak also, what happens in such a case? runtime error? warning? nothing?
14:54 * masak just found the tests that come along with that paragraph
14:56 pmichaud given sets $_ for the block
14:56 masak pmichaud: sure
14:56 masak but other things inside the block might set it to other things
15:00 pmichaud sure, they can do that
15:01 masak I can see there's no danger in this case, but I got the impression that in larger given blocks there might be
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15:05 pmichaud I suspect one can do    given $foo -> $_ { ... }  to make sure that $foo isn't modified.
15:06 masak yes...
15:07 masak gotta rush, see you
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16:12 rakudo_svn r27972 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
16:12 rakudo_svn r27972 | pmichaud++ | * Merge mutamerge + mutablerakudo branches into trunk.
16:12 rakudo_svn r27972 | pmichaud++ | * All spectest_regression tests pass.
16:12 rakudo_svn r27972 | pmichaud++ | * jonathan++ jonathan++ for Mutable implementation and merge help.
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16:32 rakudo_svn r27973 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
16:32 rakudo_svn r27973 | pmichaud++ | * Fix "switch missing default case" warning reported by NotFound++ .
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19:39 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, smop: etc.) || We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
19:42 Juerd TimToady: I'm under the impression that 18 GB text strings are, at best, very uncommon.
19:43 TimToady you've got a whole bunch of 'em inside you
19:43 Juerd They're encoded into some binary form.
19:43 TimToady base 4, actually
19:44 Juerd I decode parts back to text when I need them, and that's how I expect Perl use will be for the next few decades too.
19:44 Juerd I don't understand why the length of a string makes it being mutable make less sense.
19:45 Juerd I'd expect it to make MORE sense. You certainly don't want to COPY all those 18 gigabytes, to insert a single character.
19:45 TimToady that was my point
19:45 Juerd Then I don't understand why I interpreted what you said as the exact opposite.
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20:08 lichtkind pmichaud++
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20:28 b_jonas oh, that's better
20:29 b_jonas I wonder if maybe both Str and Buf should be immutable by default, but there could be some mutable variants as well for when you want to optimize stuff
20:29 b_jonas just a few months ago, I wanted to implement the interface of a c function in ruby
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20:30 b_jonas the c function wants a string argument
20:30 b_jonas and it can be blocking
20:30 b_jonas like write
20:30 b_jonas (but it wasn't write, write's already implemented)
20:30 b_jonas now in such a case you don't want to copy the string because it could be large
20:30 b_jonas but you also have to take care for ruby code could modify the string from another thread while you're blocking
20:31 b_jonas so that's one place when immutable strings could be useful
20:31 b_jonas otoh even if a string is immutable it might not seem so from c
20:31 b_jonas so it's really a different matter
20:31 b_jonas that's more the task of a real c interface
20:31 b_jonas which ruby doesn't have
20:33 Patterner Just learn from Java and have String and StringBuffer :)
20:45 pugs_svnbot r20600 | diakopter++ | Lots o' changes. :)
21:10 meteorjay joined #perl6
21:31 rindolf joined #perl6
21:31 rindolf Hi all.
21:31 rindolf TimToady: here?
22:01 jisom joined #perl6
22:29 pbuetow hi rindolf
22:31 rindolf Hi pbuetow
22:31 rindolf pbuetow: what's up?
22:31 rindolf I think I'll shave before I go to sleep.
22:32 pbuetow rindolf: not much! being lazy!
22:32 rindolf I feel uncomfortable.
22:32 rindolf pbuetow: so am I.
22:32 rindolf pbuetow: what time is it there?
22:32 pbuetow its 00:32am
22:33 pbuetow only 1h difference :)
22:38 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:38 rindolf pbuetow: .eu, right?
22:38 rindolf Or Africa.
22:38 pbuetow yes, .de
22:38 rindolf pbuetow: ah, cool.
22:39 pbuetow no not africa, ve never been there :/
22:39 rindolf pbuetow: well, it's Sunday tomorrow.
22:39 rindolf pbuetow: I haven't been to Africa, either.
22:39 rindolf Only Europe and NA.
22:39 rindolf And Israel.
22:39 pbuetow i ll be in bulgaria next week, for a week :)
22:39 rindolf Which is technically in Asia.
22:39 rindolf pbuetow: ah, cool.
22:39 rindolf pbuetow: do you like Bulgaria.
22:40 rindolf perlbot: .bu
22:40 rindolf perlbot: .bl
22:40 pbuetow perlbot: .bg
22:40 perlbot .bg is Bulgaria
22:40 rindolf .bg
22:40 rindolf I see.
22:40 pbuetow well its okay, but now it's better, because my GF is from .bg
22:40 rindolf Can I get rindolf.bg?
22:40 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:40 pbuetow .bg domains are expensive
22:40 rindolf pbuetow: crazy Europeans.
22:40 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:40 rindolf gimps.bg
22:40 pbuetow .de are very cheap
22:40 rindolf wallpapers.bgf
22:41 rindolf pbuetow: yes.
22:41 pbuetow loll
22:41 rindolf I'd like a .to domain.
22:41 rindolf I think they are cheap too.
22:41 rindolf Already have shlomifish.org
22:41 pbuetow i am okay with my .org and .net domains :)
22:41 rindolf pbuetow: OK.
22:41 pbuetow yes i know your site :)
22:42 pbuetow well i dont use .de because i want to keep my content 'international', dont know if i gonna stay in .de
22:42 rindolf pbuetow: I wanted to upload the Drupal for perl-speak.org today, but was too lazy.
22:42 rindolf pbuetow: OK.
22:42 pbuetow so i stay with generic SLDs
22:42 pbuetow mine is buetow.org :)
22:42 rindolf .co.uk etc. domains are also esteemed.
22:43 charsbar_ joined #perl6
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22:43 Eevee joined #perl6
22:43 lambdabot joined #perl6
22:43 SamB joined #perl6
22:43 rindolf Hmmm... seems like KDE is a moving target now in this MDV upgrade.
22:43 rindolf buetow is nice and short.
22:43 pbuetow hmm, i prefer FVWM + some gnome apps :)
22:44 rindolf pbuetow: I'm a die-hard KDE user.
22:44 rindolf At least KDE-3.5.x
22:44 pbuetow do you like kde 4? or still using 3?
22:44 rindolf Been using it since 2.0.x or so.
22:44 pbuetow 4.1 is gonna be out soon
22:44 rindolf pbuetow: still KDE3.
22:44 rindolf pbuetow: yes.
22:44 rindolf pbuetow: I didn't like 4.0.x
22:44 pbuetow well you woll give 4.1 a shot i guess
22:44 rindolf pbuetow: but 4.1.x should be better.
22:44 rindolf pbuetow: yes, I will.
22:45 pbuetow i used to use a lot of different desktops/windowmanagers
22:45 rindolf 4.0.x was very buggy.
22:45 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:45 pbuetow but now i am sticking with fvwm since 2 years
22:45 rindolf pbuetow: I personally could never configure FVWM to my liking.
22:45 rindolf perlbot: .co
22:45 perlbot .co is Colombia
22:45 rindolf Colombia.
22:45 pbuetow rindolf: configuring FVWM is like configuring sendmail :P
22:45 rindolf Useful instead of .com
22:45 rindolf There's also .cc
22:45 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:46 pbuetow (not the same syntax of course)
22:46 rindolf pbuetow: when I need something lightweight, I use IceWM.
22:46 pbuetow i've a perl module for my fvwm, which is managing the transparency of my windows.
22:46 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:46 pbuetow rindolf: i used to use WindowMaker and Fluxbox too a lot, as well as wmii
22:47 rindolf pbuetow: MiGo has been doing some fvwm work.
22:47 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:47 pbuetow but my FVWM has now keybindings like evilwm + more
22:47 rindolf pbuetow: well, I'm using many KDE apps, so running the desktop seems reasonanble.
22:47 pbuetow rindolf: yeah
22:47 pbuetow rindolf: at least you can do your job :)
22:48 rindolf pbuetow: and I was able to run it comfortable on a P3-667MHz
22:48 rindolf Of course it runs faster on my P4-2.4GHz.
22:48 pbuetow rindolf: the newest version of KDE3?
22:48 rindolf pbuetow: don't know.
22:48 rindolf pbuetow: what was back then.
22:49 rindolf I had to upgrade my mem from 0.5 GB to 2.5 GB though.
22:49 pbuetow hehehe
22:49 pbuetow ram is always good
22:49 rindolf Because it seemed that 0.5 GB was a bit sluggish.
22:49 rindolf Wwell, especially when I had Java.
22:49 pbuetow my laptop now has 2gb of ram, not 512mb any more. but i never use as much.
22:49 pbuetow well, 2gb of ram was a gift
22:49 rindolf My new computer should be able to scale up to 12 GB or 16 GB or so.
22:50 rindolf pbuetow: ah, from who?
22:50 rindolf pbuetow: what does your gf do, BTW?
22:50 pbuetow she is english teacher, nothing with computers :/ but well, i am ok with that :)
22:51 pbuetow rindolf: from my father for xmas, the 2gb of ram
22:51 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:51 rindolf pbuetow: we still need teachers.
22:51 rindolf pbuetow: computers are a poor substitute for teachers.
22:51 rindolf pbuetow: well, when teachers are good.
22:51 pbuetow rindolf: where?
22:52 rindolf pbuetow: I mean humans need teachers.
22:52 pbuetow yes ;)
22:52 rindolf I had a really good English teacher at the 11th grade.
22:52 pbuetow well i never was very good in english
22:52 rindolf And my other English teachers were also good.
22:52 rindolf pbuetow: does she speak German, too?
22:52 pbuetow until i went to the US as an exchange student. now my english is much better, but still not perfect
22:53 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:53 pbuetow rindolf: she speaks english and bulagarian (fluently), german, french, russian enough to communicate
22:53 rindolf pbuetow: my English has improved greatly after high-school.
22:53 rindolf And still is.
22:53 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:53 rindolf pbuetow: so you communicate with her in English?
22:53 pbuetow rindolf: and some other languages, which are similar to russian and bulagarian, i think serbian etc
22:54 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:54 rindolf I know a few kids from Croatia, Slovenia, etc.
22:54 pbuetow rindolf: english is the easiest way, but once a while we teach each other german or bulgarian
22:54 rindolf pbuetow: ah, I see.
22:54 pbuetow i ve been in slovenia and croatia last year :)
22:54 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:54 pbuetow slovenia on drive through to croatia
22:54 rindolf pbuetow: did you like it there?
22:54 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:54 pbuetow in coratia for vacations, it was nice :)
22:55 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
22:55 pbuetow slovenia, they have cheap gas
22:55 rindolf pbuetow: I didn't know Dalmatia was in Croatia.
22:55 rindolf I just knew there was a Dalmatian dog.
22:55 pbuetow uh, me either
22:55 rindolf pbuetow: "um, neither did I."
22:55 rindolf pbuetow: I'm the grammar nazi.
22:56 pbuetow hehehe
22:56 rindolf http://www.ozyandmillie.org/d/20080528.html
22:56 lambdabot Title: Ozy and Millie: Grammar Nazi
22:56 pbuetow i think i ll learn bulgarian
22:56 rindolf pbuetow: well, at least in Hebrew.
22:57 pbuetow hehe
22:57 pbuetow we could conversate in perl poetry :P
22:57 pbuetow but here it's perl6, don't know perl6 good enough yet
22:57 rindolf pbuetow: Perl is not as useful for human<->human conversation as English or whatever is.
22:58 rindolf pbuetow: I'm not very versed in Perl 6 either.
22:58 pbuetow well, at least it's fun
22:58 rindolf pbuetow: and poetry can be harmful.
22:58 pbuetow why can it be harmful?
22:58 rindolf pbuetow: Plato identified Poetry as divine madness.
22:59 rindolf pbuetow: Poetry is a right hemisphere function. Freeform Speech is a left hemisphere function.
22:59 pbuetow ah
22:59 rindolf perlbot: bicameral
22:59 rindolf perlbot: jaynes
22:59 rindolf perlbot: search for jaynes
22:59 perlbot Sorry, no factoids contain the string "jaynes"
23:00 rindolf perlbot: search for bicameral
23:00 perlbot Sorry, no factoids contain the string "bicameral"
23:00 rindolf How is that possible?
23:01 rindolf pbuetow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)
23:02 spinclad perlbot: search with your other hemisphere
23:02 perlbot Sorry, no factoids contain the string "with your other hemisphere"
23:02 pbuetow rindolf: huh! i am not going to read that! i am too tired (and lazy) ;)
23:02 rindolf pbuetow: anyway, the book is a very reocmmended read.
23:02 rindolf pbuetow: you can read the article.
23:03 pbuetow rindolf: maybe if i ve graduated (lots of stuff to do)
23:03 rindolf pbuetow: or you can bookmark it.
23:03 pbuetow in 3 months
23:03 rindolf pbuetow: ah.
23:03 pbuetow i ll be, i hope
23:03 rindolf pbuetow: are you still an undergrad?
23:03 pbuetow yes
23:03 pbuetow i am writing on my diploma thesis atm
23:03 pbuetow lots of work :/
23:03 rindolf Konqi looks weird now.
23:03 pbuetow rindolf: do you use LaTeX for your writings?
23:04 rindolf It doesn't happen with gtk+/gnome apps.
23:04 rindolf pbuetow: a bit.
23:04 rindolf pbuetow: but also DocBook/XML, HTML, POD , etc.
23:04 pbuetow rindolf: do you use a spell checker with LaTeX?
23:04 rindolf pbuetow: LaTeX is problematic.
23:04 pbuetow ispell/aspell?
23:04 rindolf pbuetow: no, I don't.
23:04 pbuetow i need to
23:04 rindolf pbuetow: I'm using aspell.
23:04 pbuetow i am used to LaTeX
23:04 rindolf pbuetow: for Englih.
23:04 pbuetow but need to set up a spell checker
23:04 rindolf Not for Hebrew.
23:04 pbuetow well i m writing in german
23:04 rindolf pbuetow: LaTeX is a kludge.
23:05 pbuetow i start writing next week, my software for the thesis ist almost done
23:05 rindolf pbuetow: there's no problem writing DB/XML in German.
23:05 pbuetow now i ve to write those things down
23:05 rindolf pbuetow: you can convert latex to DocBook/XML or HTML+MathML.
23:05 rindolf pbuetow: using h4t
23:06 pbuetow i think you can convert LaTeX to everything known in the universe :)
23:06 pbuetow well i can use the spell checker of vim or an external spell checker like a spell. which also should support LaTeX.
23:06 pbuetow s/a spell/aspell/
23:08 rindolf pbuetow: I have an idea to write a post-modern typesetting system.
23:08 rindolf As an alternative to TeX/LaTeX and Troff.
23:08 rindolf A saner alternative.
23:08 pbuetow can you complete it next week? :P
23:08 pbuetow so i can use it.
23:08 pbuetow (just kidding)
23:22 rindolf pbuetow: it will take a while.
23:23 rindolf I'm planning to generate XSL-FO, SVG, MathML, etc.
23:23 rindolf To make my life easier.
23:25 pbuetow rindolf: i understand, sounds interesting
23:26 pbuetow rindolf: tell me, if you want testers
23:26 dominiko joined #perl6
23:27 rindolf pbuetow: sure.
23:27 rindolf pbuetow: it's still pie-in-the-sky.
23:27 rindolf pbuetow: I haven't written a single line of code yet.
23:27 rindolf pbuetow: just have two docs.
23:27 pbuetow rindolf: ok ;) planing is important
23:28 rindolf pbuetow: it's one of my "world-domination projects"
23:28 pbuetow lol
23:28 rindolf Great ideas, but not enough motivation.
23:34 rindolf Well, I'm going to sleep.
23:34 rindolf Hopefully I can fall asleep easily.
23:36 pbuetow rindolf: good night.
23:36 rindolf pbuetow: night.
23:37 rindolf Or maybe I'll eat something beforehand.
23:37 rindolf I could prepare rice in the microwave.
23:37 pbuetow i always need meat
23:37 rindolf Maybe I should do cog. psy. exercises.
23:37 rindolf pbuetow: meat makes you active.
23:38 dominiko I'm new here, I thought this was about Perl.
23:39 pbuetow dominiko: yes, it is about perl6
23:39 dominiko ok good, not just about food then.
23:40 pbuetow yes!
23:41 dominiko I've been ignoring Perl6 so far but I read a bit about it today, and ... it looks promising.
23:41 rindolf dominiko: it looks very promising to me too.
23:41 rindolf dominiko: not sure if I like the entire thing, but it has many excitign features.
23:42 rindolf dominiko: I think we'll see ideas from it in many places.
23:42 dominiko but gosh it takes time.  Are we seeing the light at the end of the tunnel?  I don't mean to say that as a criticism, all good things take time.
23:42 rindolf dominiko: well, right now Rakudo seems like the way to go.
23:43 rindolf dominiko: Pugs is mostly dead.
23:43 rindolf dominiko: and is dog-slow.
23:43 rindolf dominiko: I voiced some criticism against perl 6 in the past.
23:43 rindolf perlbot: perl6-crit
23:43 rindolf perlbot: search for crit
23:43 perlbot Found 3 matches for "crit": port 2467, perl6crit, perl 6 critique
23:43 rindolf perlbot: perl6crit
23:43 perlbot rindolf's Perl6 critique: http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/1339 -- but be sure to read at least this comment too: http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/1339#comment-32746
23:43 lambdabot Title: freshmeat.net: Editorials - Critique of Where Perl 6 is Heading
23:43 pbuetow pugs used to be about 20 times slower than perl5, last time i tested it. dont really remember what i tested, some parsing stuff i think.
23:44 rindolf pbuetow: yeah.
23:44 rindolf pbuetow: it was also slow for the Graham Function.
23:44 dominiko yes, I read... it's optmized for... fun
23:44 dominiko instead of speed or memory
23:44 dominiko but fun is important
23:44 pbuetow but it's very nice to have had pugs!
23:44 rindolf dominiko: but slow running code is not fun.
23:44 rindolf dominiko: the faster a program runs, he happier you are.
23:45 rindolf dominiko: wait a sec.
23:45 dominiko won't there be a c or c++ implementation?
23:45 pbuetow perl6 (rakudo) will uses a virtual machine, which itself is in C
23:45 rindolf dominiko: http://shlomif.livejournal.com/52579.html - fun, happiness, etc.
23:45 pbuetow -will
23:45 lambdabot Title: shlomif: What Motivates People and How?
23:46 pbuetow dominiko: http://www.parrotcode.org
23:46 lambdabot Title: Parrot Virtual Machine - parrotcode
23:46 rindolf Oooh... TimToady got op.
23:47 rindolf A languages designer with power!
23:47 pbuetow hehe.
23:47 rindolf Is there spam or something?

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