Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-06-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:13 Juerd http://toons.gotblah.com/archive/w​ulffmorgenthaler/080613-00:01.gif
00:13 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/5c2nnj
00:14 rakudo_svn r28287 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
00:14 rakudo_svn r28287 | pmichaud++ | * Add missing pir_coda and pod closing to Range.pir.
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00:22 mncharity elf: sub infix:<☺>($a,$b){$a+$b};say 3☺4
00:22 p6eval OUTPUT[Invalid separator character '<' in attribute list at (eval 14) line 3, near "sub infix:"␤syntax error at (eval 14) line 3, near "sub infix:"␤ at ./elf_f_faster line 4496␤]
00:23 mncharity oh, right... svn up...
00:27 rakudo_svn r28288 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
00:27 rakudo_svn r28288 | pmichaud++ | * remove obsolete "compiler_directive" rule from grammar
00:33 pugs_svnbot r20778 | putter++ | [elf] A first cut at encoding routine names.  And "infix:<+>" now normalized in IR to "infix:+".
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00:33 pugs_svnbot r20778 | putter++ | Saying infix:<+> no longer crashes elf.  So foofix routines can now be declared in the prelude... but they won't actually be called yet.
00:33 pugs_svnbot r20778 | putter++ | multi infix:<qwe>(Int $a,$b){$a+$b}; multi infix:<qwe>(Str $a,$b){13}; say 3 qwe 4; say "x" qwe 4;  # now behaves non-bogusly (but this is atypical)
00:36 mncharity elf: sub infix:<☺>($a,$b){$a+$b};say 3☺4
00:36 p6eval OUTPUT[7␤]
00:36 mncharity
00:37 mncharity prefix wont work though, because category prec/assoc defaults are kludged. :/
00:44 mncharity perl6: sub β(){3}; say β();
00:44 p6eval kp6 r20778: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 4, line 1 column 4:␤sub β(){3}; say β()␤    ^ HERE␤]
00:44 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[3␤]
00:44 p6eval ..rakudo r28289: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\x{ce}\x{b2}
00:44 p6eval ..elf r20778: OUTPUT[Parse error in: /tmp/7PRxssuogt␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: sub β(){3}; say β();␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:98:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤  STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
00:44 p6eval ..STD_red/std.rb:210:in `_UNIT'␤  ./../STD_red/STD_red_run:108:in `main'␤  ./...
00:45 mncharity not funding audrey was such a bungle. :/
00:46 mncharity good night all &
00:54 pugs_svnbot r20779 | lwall++ | [STD] faststopper now does very fast reject when we've already tested for stoppers
00:54 pugs_svnbot r20779 | lwall++ | [Cursor5] re-enable auto-:: on recursive lexer definitions so we can parse assertions :)
01:14 diakopter TimToady: I don't understand all the commenting?
01:26 TimToady that's okay--neither do I...
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01:28 rakudo_svn r28290 | jhorwitz++ | implement 'slurp' and 'close' builtins
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01:30 TimToady oh, you mean, why did I comment out a bunch of obsolescent methods?
01:30 diakopter oh; they're obsolescent
01:30 TimToady they need to be rewritten into mixin form
01:31 TimToady they would currently blow up in any case since they depend on things that are already gone
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02:29 pmichaud (utf8/icu):  PGE can handle unicode just fine.  It's Parrot that has troubles (more)
02:30 pmichaud Currently Parrot stores unicode strings in utf8, which is very bad for indexed access.  Computing the length of a string isn't expensive, but moving to character #n (repeatedly) can be very expensive.
02:32 pmichaud The solution is to store strings in a fixed-width encoding, such as ucs2.  But right now Parrot requires ICU to do that, and not every platform has ICU available.
02:40 * pmichaud has an idea.
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02:55 Auzon elf: sub postfix:<!> ($a) {my $t = 1; $t *= $a-- while $a;}; my $f = 5; say $f!
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03:04 pugs_svnbot r20780 | lwall++ | [STD] strip out all the bogus $STOP stuff
03:04 Auzon elf: say hi
03:04 p6eval OUTPUT[Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::hi called at (eval 14) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f_faster line 4515␤]
03:04 Auzon elf: say "hi"
03:04 p6eval OUTPUT[hi␤]
03:04 Auzon elf: sub postfix:<!> ($a) {my $t = 1; $t *= $a-- while $a;}; my $f = 5; say $f!
03:05 Auzon mhm.
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03:57 diakopter om_
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03:58 diakopter this packrat+lrecursion algorithm is unbelievably fast compared to naive recdescent
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04:36 rakudo_svn r28294 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
04:36 rakudo_svn r28294 | pmichaud++ | * Fix pod in Range.pir.
04:36 pugs_svnbot r20781 | lwall++ | [Cursor5] extra parens blow up LTM
04:38 diakopter TimToady: is gimme STD suitable for the evalbot?
04:38 diakopter that didn't come out right
04:42 rakudo_svn r28298 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
04:43 rakudo_svn r28298 | pmichaud++ | * Default reading program source as utf8.
04:43 rakudo_svn r28298 | pmichaud++ | * Use HLLCompiler's transcode option to try to down-transcode
04:43 rakudo_svn r28298 | pmichaud++ |   the utf8 source to iso-8859-1 before compiling it.  If that
04:43 rakudo_svn r28298 | pmichaud++ |   succeeds, we get a speed win; if not, then at least the program
04:43 rakudo_svn r28298 | pmichaud++ |   will still execute (modulo any exceptions due to unavailable ICU).
04:44 pmichaud rakudo: say 'hi';
04:44 p6eval rakudo r28297 OUTPUT[hi␤]
04:44 * pmichaud waits for r28298.
04:46 Auzon If it's just a Rakudo change, it should be done by now
04:46 Auzon Parrot changes fire on the hour
04:46 Auzon rakudo: say 1
04:46 p6eval rakudo r28298 OUTPUT[1␤]
04:47 pmichaud it's a parrot change also.
04:47 pmichaud although perhaps not for what is needed here.
04:47 pmichaud rakudo: sub ä(){3}; say ä();
04:47 p6eval rakudo r28298 OUTPUT[Malformed UTF-8 string␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc -5054 ((unknown file):-1)␤
04:48 pmichaud I wonder if that's due to lack of a parrot update, my irssi client, or evalbot.
04:48 Auzon I'd guess parrot and then evalbot
04:49 pmichaud $ cat x
04:49 pmichaud sub ä(){3}; say ä();
04:49 pmichaud $ ./parrot perl6.pbc x
04:49 pmichaud 3
04:49 Auzon the ä looked fine here, and evalbot outputs and receives Unicode fine from what I've seen
04:49 diakopter evalbot control reparrot
04:49 Auzon Nice try ;)
04:49 pmichaud I think I can wait the 10 mins.  :-)
04:51 Auzon I'll start it now ;)
04:51 pugs_svnbot r20782 | putter++ | [STD_red] Use unicode for all \w.  So names can now be unicode.
04:51 * Auzon is impatient
04:57 TimToady diakopter: STD5 couldn't give you much beyond did/didn't parse currently
04:58 pmichaud rakudo: sub ä(){3}; say ä();
04:58 p6eval rakudo r28298 OUTPUT[Malformed UTF-8 string␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc -5054 ((unknown file):-1)␤
04:58 mncharity @tell pmurias re 'use v5', just saw your note in TODO.  'is p5' isn't actually a deviation.  it could be called 'is implementation_primitive', but that's ugly.  They are the equivalent of pugs's Prim.hs.  'use v5' is a very different beast.  In general, one can't 'use SomeLanguage;' without being able to parse and compile that language to p6 IR.  not going to see 'use v5' rsn.
04:58 lambdabot Consider it noted.
04:59 mncharity pmurias: though might do something related, a p5 with api into the p6 runtime, like...
05:01 mncharity http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/old_pugs​_perl5_backend/PIL-Run/lib/PIL/Run/ApiX.pm
05:01 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/58tgrv
05:02 mncharity use P5xs6; ? ;)
05:05 rakudo_svn r28299 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
05:05 rakudo_svn r28299 | pmichaud++ | * Allow uppercase hex characters in \x... escapes.
05:05 rakudo_svn r28299 | pmichaud++ | * S02-literals/hex_chars.t passes.
05:06 pugs_svnbot r20783 | pmichaud++ | * Remove #?rakudo skip from S02-literals/hex_chars.t .
05:12 pmichaud rakudo: sub ä(){3}; say ä();
05:12 p6eval rakudo r28299 OUTPUT[Malformed UTF-8 string␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc -5054 ((unknown file):-1)␤
05:12 pmichaud grr.
05:12 pugs_svnbot r20784 | putter++ | [elf] Emitted p5 is now 'use utf8'.  But encode_function_name() is still doing bytewise ord() - not clear why.  And quotemeta() is mutilating utf8 characters in strings.
05:12 pugs_svnbot r20784 | putter++ | Added STRING length methods.  Added eval_dies_ok() to Test.pm.
05:13 mncharity elf: sub ä(){3}; say ä();
05:13 mncharity even better. :/
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05:13 pmichaud well, unicode sub names work in rakudo -- for some reason evalbot isn't able to send it to rakudo properly.
05:15 rakudo_svn r28300 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
05:15 rakudo_svn r28300 | pmichaud++ | * Mark S02-literals/hex_chars.t as #pure.
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05:20 mncharity sigh.  so unicode sub names work in elf... but unicode strings are now rather broken.  looks a lot like things aren't honoring 'use utf8'.  something for another day.
05:22 mncharity have to start running rakudo against some of the simpler elf files at some point.
05:22 mncharity g'night &
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05:50 pugs_svnbot r20785 | lwall++ | [STD5] could misparse circumfix:<( )> as signature
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05:56 pugs_svnbot r20786 | putter++ | [elf] Better STRING codes() and graphs() copied from misc/old_pugs_perl5_backend/P​IL-Run/lib/PIL/Run/PrimP5.pm.
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06:57 pugs_svnbot r20787 | lwall++ | [STD5] improved infix coercions in sublanguages such as Regex
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12:26 pugs_svnbot r20788 | diakopter++ | [yap6] more tracing...
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13:30 pmurias yap6: use v6;1
13:30 lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:31 p6eval yap6 r20788 No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
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13:32 moritz_ yap6: 1+2
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13:33 moritz_ sh: line 1: 13793 CPU time limit exceeded
13:33 p6eval yap6 r20788 No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
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13:41 pmichaud rakudo: sub é() { 3 };   say é();
13:41 p6eval rakudo r28321 OUTPUT[Malformed UTF-8 string␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc -5054 ((unknown file):-1)␤
13:41 pmichaud oh well, just checking.
13:41 b_jonas pmichaud: try 'use encoding "utf8";'
13:41 pmichaud b_jonas: hmmm?
13:41 b_jonas and read all the caveats at the pod of encoding
13:41 b_jonas pmichaud: if you want to use non-ascii identifiers
13:42 pmichaud b_jonas: Perl 6 is unicode by default.
13:42 b_jonas oh, wrong channel then
13:42 Lunchy joined #perl6
13:42 b_jonas sorry
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13:42 moritz_ wasn't it mncharity or pmurias having problems with non-ascii identifiers?
13:43 moritz_ b_jonas: is there any advantage over 'use utf8;'?
13:43 pmichaud I don't recall.  I know that rakudo handles non-ascii identifiers now, but I can't seem to get it to work with evalbot.
13:43 b_jonas moritz_: I think there is, but I don't get all that stuff
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13:43 b_jonas I think there are still some parts not really nicely done
13:43 moritz_ b_jonas: I mostly remember that 'use encoding ..'; kills threat safety ;)
13:44 b_jonas yeah,
13:44 b_jonas I don't know why though
13:44 b_jonas I mean, there could at least be some mode that doesn't do all of its functions
13:45 b_jonas just the unicode identifiers and the auto-decoded literals
13:45 b_jonas and the io layers
13:45 b_jonas not the other magic
13:45 b_jonas but is thread safe
13:46 b_jonas I mean, the whole combination doesn't even make sense
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13:46 b_jonas just because you write the program in some encoding, why would it assume by default that it's connected to std handles that are encoded that way/
13:51 moritz_ missing orthogonality
13:56 pmurias moritz_: mncharity had problems with non-ascii identifiers
13:58 pmurias b_jonas: it should be possible to change perl5 default assumption to unicode
13:59 b_jonas which assumption (out of the three)?
13:59 b_jonas because the identifier thing can probably changed without much side effects
14:00 b_jonas the only problem may be that some very non-perl files may not be detected as syntax error as early
14:00 b_jonas but the other two can't be changed so easily
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14:02 pmurias b_jonas: i should be able to guarantine to perl that my script will never find an iso-8859-1 file
14:02 diakopter anyone: in Perl 6 is there a way to break a quoted region (with something like unspace or a comment) without terminating the quoted region with its normal quote terminator and ~ with the next region.... sort of a universal halt-interpolation signal... if it doesn't exist already, I think it would be a good idea to add - such a thing might also be useful for signifying the end of "sub-language" regions.  of course, such a thing ...
14:03 diakopter ... would need an escaped version as well
14:03 pmurias * guarantee
14:03 b_jonas pmurias: iso-8859-1 sources are ok, for they are usually either ascii-only or quickly flagged as a syntax error at the first non-ascii place
14:04 b_jonas anyway, that's not a problem
14:04 b_jonas but I don't think you can change the other two default assumptions
14:04 b_jonas (even if perl6 wants to do that to one of them)
14:04 pmurias is it possible to compile a non iso-8859-1 supporting perl?
14:05 pmichaud diakopter: \q[...]
14:05 pmichaud also \qq[...], \qw[...], etc.
14:07 b_jonas diakopter: I think you may be able to do interpolation (like brace interpolation) for that
14:08 b_jonas like, you could say "foo${\''      }bar" like that
14:08 b_jonas but I'm not sure if that's what you want exactly
14:32 diakopter thanks
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16:23 pmurias all elf users: please upgrade your autobox ;)
16:23 pugs_svnbot r20789 | pmurias++ | [elf] changed autobox->type to autobox::universal::type to work with the newest autobox
16:29 pmurias TimToady++ #inventing patch(1) so i can freeze my changes to the working copy cleanly and work on several things at once
16:34 Auzon elf: say 1
16:34 p6eval OUTPUT[1␤]
16:34 b_jonas funnily, if we had infinite disk space, memory, and computing power, we'd need only diff3, not patch
16:45 pmurias b_jonas: is there a way of checking if some non-utf8 input leaks in into the perl interpreter?
16:45 b_jonas pmurias: no
16:45 b_jonas and why "leaks"?
16:45 b_jonas I still don't think you should assume utf-8 as a default for everything automatically
16:46 b_jonas not in something like perl that you want to use for so many things
16:47 pmurias i'm trying to add unicode support to elf
16:47 pmurias well fix unicode support to elf
16:48 pmurias and i want to make sure everything is properly marked as utf-8
16:48 pmurias b_jonas: what other encodings should be default?
16:49 pmurias unless the default is ascii and everything else causes an exception (i'm ok with that)
16:51 b_jonas well, I myself like how that works in perl5: the default is that strings are treated as byte strings, as the encoding is unknown
16:51 b_jonas and for program code, only ascii is accepted
16:51 b_jonas and STDIN etc and argv and envp and other such input is also byte strings by default
16:51 pmurias b_jonas: dosn't iso-8859-1 creap in somewhere?
16:53 pmurias according perlunifaq perl uses that encoding to convert binary string to text strings by default if forced to
16:54 b_jonas pmurias: iso-8859-1 creeps in the part I don't like
16:54 b_jonas namely that when you use byte strings where you should use char strings in perl5, they get decoded as 8859-1
16:54 b_jonas and this includes when you catenate a byte string with a char string
16:55 b_jonas this is mostly a bad thing, because you are supposed to separate the two,
16:55 b_jonas but it's also convenient in like catenating ascii constants or stringified numbers to char strings
16:56 b_jonas in the converse case, if you use a char string where a byte string is expected (like if you print to a filehandle without encoding layer), it's encoded as utf-8
16:57 pmurias it would be better to warn/die if a non-ascii char is found then use 8859-1
16:57 b_jonas that's similar to the other case in that it's usually wrong, but is also sometimes convenient because you can e.g. numify/oct/hex a string etc
16:57 b_jonas well, there are some warnings
16:58 b_jonas but not for all cases
16:58 b_jonas for the same reason as why it's convenient
16:58 b_jonas there's also a module that makes most of these automatic conversions an error
16:58 b_jonas perl6 will work completely differently though I think
17:01 pmurias b_jonas: what's that module?
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17:13 pmurias &
17:27 audreyt that module is encoding::warnings.
17:29 pmurias thanks
17:31 b_jonas audreyt: ah, thanks. I couldn't find it
17:32 audreyt np :) also see http://search.cpan.org/dist​/Encode-DoubleEncodedUTF8/ for an approach at the other end on the kluge-solution spectrum
17:32 lambdabot Title: Tatsuhiko Miyagawa / Encode-DoubleEncodedUTF8 - search.cpan.org
17:36 pmurias is there a way to find out what loads HTML::Entities in?
17:37 pmurias ah ack ;)
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17:54 Auzon rakudo: class Foo {method WHAT {"blah"}}; say Foo.new."WHAT";
17:54 p6eval rakudo r28326 OUTPUT[blah␤]
17:54 Auzon pugs: class Foo {method WHAT {"blah"}}; say Foo.new."WHAT";
17:54 p6eval OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "\""␤    expecting ".", "\187", ">>", "=", "^", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "--", "++", "i", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript␤    at /tmp/JZeH7XPr9b line 1, column 47␤]
17:54 Auzon rakudo: class Foo {method WHAT {"blah"}}; say Foo.new.WHAT;
17:54 p6eval rakudo r28326 OUTPUT[blah␤]
17:55 Auzon bzzt.
17:58 pmurias if i have "use encoding "utf8"; use "open(my $fh,">:encoding(utf8)","filename") and the files i read in are utf8, i should be fine?
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18:00 pmurias s/"use/use/
18:01 pmurias s/"open/open
18:03 Auzon elf: 1
18:03 p6eval RESULT[1␤]
18:03 Auzon perl6: say "revision check"
18:03 p6eval kp6 r20789: OUTPUT[revision check␤]
18:03 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[revision check␤]
18:03 p6eval ..rakudo r28326: OUTPUT[revision check␤]
18:03 p6eval ..elf r20789: OUTPUT[revision check␤]
18:06 audreyt pmurias: s/>:encoding/<:encoding/ if you are going to read in from the file... but otherwise you should be fine.
18:07 pmurias audreyt: right doing so
18:11 pmurias got to mark @ARGV as unicode too, apparently
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18:15 pugs_svnbot r20790 | diakopter++ | [yap6] more tracing toward the goal of understanding this algorithm
18:16 diakopter where, by "understanding this algorithm", I mean figuring out how badly I botched its implementation
18:16 pugs_svnbot r20791 | Auzon++ | [S29] :bb is now :aa and samebase is now sameaccent
18:17 Auzon It was already changed in S05, so I just changed S29 and the test
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18:38 b_jonas pmurias: heh,
18:39 b_jonas the fun part of decoding @ARGV too is when you use the ARGV io handle
18:39 b_jonas (dunno how that's called in perl6)
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20:16 pmurias b_jonas: $*ARGS
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20:24 pmurias b_jonas: ARGV in perl5 works fine with use encoding "utf8"
20:24 pmurias how do i mark a string as utf8
20:24 pmurias ?
20:25 b_jonas pmurias: Encoding::decode
20:30 pmurias b_jonas: thanks
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20:37 pmurias is support for non-utf8 encodings a big issue?
20:37 pugs_svnbot r20792 | pmurias++ | [elf] unicode support
20:39 Auzon rakudo: say Int.WHAT
20:39 p6eval rakudo r28330 OUTPUT[Int␤]
20:39 Auzon rakudo: say Int."WHAT"
20:39 p6eval rakudo r28330 OUTPUT[Int␤]
20:40 Auzon rakudo: class Foo {method WHAT {'correct'}}; say Foo.new.WHAT; say Foo.new."WHAT";
20:40 p6eval rakudo r28330 OUTPUT[correct␤correct␤]
20:40 Auzon hn
20:40 Auzon hm
20:40 Auzon first one should be Foo
20:41 pmurias perl6: say "ąęóćżźł"
20:41 p6eval kp6 r20792: OUTPUT[ąęóćżźł␤]
20:41 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[ąęóćżźł␤]
20:41 p6eval ..rakudo r28330: OUTPUT[ąęóćżźł␤]
20:41 p6eval ..elf r20792: OUTPUT[ąęóćżźł␤]
20:41 Auzon evalbot might be responsible for some issues with Unicode
20:56 Ched- left #perl6
21:01 wknight8111 joined #perl6
21:02 b_jonas pmurias: depends on what degree of support
21:06 pmurias shower&
21:11 donaldh joined #perl6
21:23 pmurias b_jonas: i'm more concered at which point it would become required
21:23 pmurias s/required/nessesary/
21:24 pmurias * necessary
21:34 b_jonas pmurias: (starting to copy rant I typed to the wrong channel)
21:34 b_jonas (support of other encodings)
21:34 b_jonas basically, if you only want to do operations that don't requrie much knowledge about the characters, like reading, printing, concatenation, etc, then it's easy
21:34 b_jonas for that, you just need a new datatype that tags byte strings with their encodings.
21:34 b_jonas and upgrade them to char strings (maybe with the old encoding still saved) if you want to do anything else
21:34 b_jonas but for anything more complicated like matching \w against it etc, you'd probably need to upgrade to char strings
21:34 b_jonas (which are internally represented as the language's choice of a single encoding on which they implement every operation,
21:34 b_jonas this encoding is utf-8 for perl5, iirc utf-16 or utf-32 for java, etc)
21:34 b_jonas because it's just took too many developper time to implement every operation for every encoding
21:34 b_jonas though I guess the way perl6/parrot is extensible,
21:35 b_jonas (realized it's the wrong channel at that point)
21:35 b_jonas people could later write modules that fully support strings in easier encodings
21:35 armagad left #perl6
21:36 b_jonas which are namely the other four of utf8,utf16le,utf16be,utf32le,utf16be than what perl6 will support natively and encodings where one byte stands for one char statelessly
21:37 b_jonas or even not full support, just better support that still upgradest to perl6 core char strings when it has to do something complicated
21:38 armagad joined #perl6
21:42 wknight8111 nice rant
21:43 b_jonas wknight8111: and they didn't interrupt me that it's on the wrong channel
21:43 b_jonas even thoguh I started it by addressing someone (I didn't copy that here)
21:43 b_jonas that's what crazy in it
21:43 pmurias b_jonas: what was the other channel?
21:43 b_jonas #haskell-blah
21:43 Auzon :O
21:43 Auzon Nice rant indeed
21:44 * Auzon wonders what the Haskell people thought
21:51 xdg joined #perl6
21:54 pmurias g'night
21:55 b_jonas night
22:16 xdg joined #perl6
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