Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-06-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:16 dduncan opinion question: what's a good name for a fundamental quasi-function that is used for arbitrary expression validation, where it returns its primary argument if its secondary argument is true, and it throws an exception if its secondary argument is false?  This would be used in a pure functional context, throwing an exception aside
00:18 dduncan eg, say it was called 'gate', it could be invoked using gate( $x, $x != 0 )
00:18 dduncan but I was looking for a name that wasn't a verb but a noun
00:19 dduncan alternates could be 'expected' or such
00:19 dduncan or nevermind, I"ll just pick something and maybe change it later
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00:40 pugs_svnbot r21072 | lwall++ | [STD] some progress in finding outer $LANG correctly
00:40 pugs_svnbot r21072 | lwall++ | use feature 'say'
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03:03 rakudo_svn r28737 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
03:03 rakudo_svn r28737 | pmichaud++ | * Add sigil listop contextualizers.
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03:08 pugs_svnbot r21073 | pmichaud++ | Remove some #?rakudo skip markers for sigil contextualizers.
03:11 pugs_svnbot r21074 | pmichaud++ | Update #?rakudo skip messages.
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03:32 pmichaud pugs: my %hash = 1..6;   say %hash.join(':');
03:32 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[1  2:3     4:5     6␤]
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03:54 mncharity rakudo: Array ~~ KitchenSink
03:54 p6eval rakudo 28737: OUTPUT[Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤current instr.: 'infix:~~' pc 10492 (src/gen_builtins.pir:6878)␤]
03:54 mncharity rakudo: Array ~~ Array
03:54 p6eval rakudo 28737: RESULT[1]
03:54 mncharity rakudo: Array ~~ Ordered
03:54 p6eval rakudo 28737: OUTPUT[Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤current instr.: 'infix:~~' pc 10492 (src/gen_builtins.pir:6878)␤]
03:55 mncharity rakudo: Array ~~ Num
03:55 p6eval rakudo 28737: RESULT[0]
03:55 mncharity rakudo: Array ~~ Any
03:55 p6eval rakudo 28737: RESULT[1]
03:55 mncharity rakudo: Array ~~ Container
03:55 p6eval rakudo 28737: OUTPUT[Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤current instr.: 'infix:~~' pc 10492 (src/gen_builtins.pir:6878)␤]
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04:11 pugs_svnbot r21075 | lwall++ | [STD] now parses 400 lines of itself in about 5 seconds
04:13 mncharity rhr++  # docs/p6types
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05:20 pugs_svnbot r21076 | putter++ | [STD_red] Added missing trait_verb:does (currently trait_auxiliary:does in STD.pm), and new role_name .
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05:45 pugs_svnbot r21077 | putter++ | elfish/doc_p6types: Created.  Unfinished work assimilating the new docs/p6type into the elf prelude.  rhr++
05:45 pugs_svnbot r21077 | putter++ | Signatures are faked, since docs/p6type doesn't yet have them.
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06:17 pugs_svnbot r21078 | putter++ | [elf_f] Added basic support for does() and roles.  They are currently emitted identically to classes.
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09:43 moritz_ re
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13:08 pmurias what is the lexical scope of $/?
13:08 pugs_svnbot r21079 | pmurias++ | [elfX] removed _let_end,_let_gen,Hash.dup and fixed STD_red path
13:11 pmurias the same as if there was a my before the ~~?
13:11 moritz_ pmurias: I think it's :context<rw> or some such
13:14 pmurias moritz_: thanks
13:14 pmurias moritz_: S02 proved you right
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13:16 pmurias moritz_: and an implicit my $/ is context<rw> is added at the start of every block?
13:17 moritz_ that I don't know
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13:20 pmurias what is the url of the more formal perl6 spec?
13:21 moritz_ http://perlcabal.org/syn/ is as formal as you can get
13:21 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
13:21 moritz_ or do you mean Dlougzs ($correct name here) effort?
13:21 moritz_ that would be http://www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/
13:21 lambdabot Title: Perl 6
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13:22 masak hehe, I like how he very humbly calls it "Perl 6 Rigorous Technical Specification"
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13:35 pmurias avar: is the kp6 common-lisp backend a good source of guidance for a common-lisp backend for elf?
13:36 pugs_svnbot r21080 | pmurias++ | [elfX] removed debugging leftover
13:46 pmurias TimToady: what is the exact point an implicit my $_,$/,$! is inserted?
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13:53 pugs_svnbot r21081 | pmurias++ | [elfX] merged 21078
13:58 rakudo_svn r28746 | particle++ | [rakudo] refactor contextualizer code into a subroutine (DRY++)
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15:58 TimToady @tell pmurias those variables are an intrinsic part of any block's lexpad, so must be created as soon as the lexpad is created, but just after the signature has added its lexicals, in case the signature has already inserted one of those variables (typically $_)
15:58 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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16:36 rakudo_svn r28753 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
16:36 rakudo_svn r28753 | pmichaud++ | * spectest-progress update, 75 files, 1080 passing tests, 1 failing test
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16:42 pmichaud http://www.pmichaud.com/perl6​/rakudo-tests-2008-06-27.png
16:43 Auzon very cool rakudo++
16:47 slavi1 6.2.13.a(Perl5_stub.o): In function `stginit_export_Pugszm6zi2zi13_Pug​sziRunziPerl5_zdfundefValzua78GC':
16:47 slavi1 does that error make any sense?
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17:00 pugs_svnbot r21082 | putter++ | docs/p6types: Small cleanups for r21077 - normalized foofix quoting styles (3 conventions -> 2), and commented out "method" lines which are aggregates (eg, "etc"), rather than an actual method.
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17:33 pmurias pugs: $_ = 7;if (1) { $_ = 3
17:33 lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:33 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    expecting operator or "}"␤    at /tmp/P4NnrYa0VY line 2, column 1␤]
17:33 pmurias pugs: $_ = 7;if (1) { $_ = 3 };say $_;
17:33 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[3␤]
17:34 pmurias TimToady: shouldn't it print out 7?
17:39 pmichaud I think that the block to a C<if> is an immediate block, so it doesn't localize $_
17:40 pmurias pmichaud: only none immediate blocks do?
17:40 pmurias or doesn't -> {} do initialization to?
17:40 pmichaud I think -> {} gets a local $_
17:41 pmichaud and takes no arguments
17:41 TimToady the block is really -> $_ = OUTER::<$_> {...}, and since if doesn't pass a param, it is bound to the outer $_
17:41 pmichaud ...bound or copied?
17:41 TimToady bound
17:41 TimToady or it doesn't work right
17:41 pmichaud right
17:41 pmichaud so $_ = OUTER::<$_>  also has an (implicit?)  is rw
17:42 TimToady yes
17:43 TimToady parameters are for binding, so defaults are bound as well, despite the appearance of =
17:43 pmichaud right
17:43 pmichaud except for something like is copy, I suspect
17:43 TimToady which is why we often call it pseudo-assignment
17:43 pmurias pugs: $_ = 8;my $code = -> {$_ = 5};$code.();say $_;
17:43 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[5␤]
17:43 TimToady well, one of the reasons...
17:44 TimToady arguably wrong there, since -> implies a () sig
17:45 pmichaud pugs: $_ = 8;my $code = -> {$_ = 5};$code.(1);say $_;
17:45 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** No compatible multi variant found: "$code"␤    at /tmp/jEdp1dyJUX line 1, column 31-40␤]
17:45 TimToady but pugs may be treating -> {...} as equivalent to {...}
17:45 pmichaud so, in the -> { ... }   case, the $_ should not be bound to the outer $_
17:45 pmichaud (which is as I remember it)
17:45 TimToady I would think not.
17:46 pmichaud okay, thanks.
17:47 pmurias TimToady: thanks for the clarification
17:48 TimToady np, mp
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17:55 rindolf Hello boys and girls!
17:55 * rindolf returned from the swimming pool.
17:59 smtms rindolf, I thought you were going to ride a bike
18:00 TimToady the two are not mutually exclusive if it's a water bike...
18:00 rindolf smtms: no, pool eventually.
18:00 rindolf TimToady: :-)
18:00 rindolf Something from #perlcafe
18:01 rindolf "On the Internet no one knows you're a female dog."
18:01 rindolf "But everyone can tell you're a Bitch."
18:02 rindolf smtms: did you see the geek pseudo-sextalk yesterday?
18:02 rindolf I'll fortune it.
18:02 rindolf Well, XML-Gram-Fortune it actually.
18:02 rindolf But I'm a lazy leech.
18:04 rindolf ls -t | head -4 | (while read T ; do tail -10000 "$T" ; done) | gvim - ==> gotta love bash.
18:04 rindolf Golf!
18:04 rindolf Bash golf!
18:04 rindolf rm -fr ~
18:04 rindolf Dangerous golf.
18:13 * rindolf is listening to Sister Act - Oh Maria - rHASQg8fR0s
18:13 rindolf It's the best part of the movie.
18:15 cj joined #perl6
18:15 rindolf Ah, great a Hebrew song with iso-stupid-8859-8 garbage for ID tags.
18:15 rindolf Now /nowplay for you!
18:16 rindolf For one song!
18:16 rindolf No /nowplay for you!
18:19 rindolf TimToady: http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/​shlomif.html#sextalk-according-to-perlers
18:19 lambdabot Title: Shlomi Fish's Quotes as Fortunes Cookies, http://tinyurl.com/6jnmyl
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18:26 rindolf TimToady: what's up?
18:30 spinclad oh, please!
18:33 spinclad well, we just had a thunderstorm pass over, with no casualties
18:33 spinclad (unless i'm still caught in the eye)
18:33 justatheory joined #perl6
18:39 rindolf WTF? There's no one but me in #japan?
18:39 rindolf How come there are virtually no Japanese on Freenode?
18:40 smtms I think en_JP is too different to en_GB and en_US, and they just cannot understand the rest of the world
18:41 smtms or they think IRC is an 1980's technology, and they use only technologies from the future in Japan :-)
18:42 TimToady um, it's about 4am in Japan...
18:45 [particle1 http://www.theonion.com/content/news​/earthquake_sets_japan_back_to_2147
18:45 lambdabot Title: Earthquake Sets Japan Back To 2147 | The Onion - America's Finest News Source, http://tinyurl.com/yt4egq
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18:46 rindolf TimToady: ah.
18:46 rindolf TimToady: hmm...
18:46 rindolf TimToady: still, some people should be there.
18:46 rindolf Some people keep IRC open even when they sleep.
18:47 rindolf It's like there's hardly any free decent docs for Ruby in English.
18:47 rindolf And there is in Japanese.
18:47 TimToady so learn Japanese
18:48 spinclad rindolf: perhaps you're thinking of audreyt, well known for both coding and ircing in her sleep?
18:48 rindolf spinclad: heh.
18:48 rindolf spinclad: does she sleep?
18:48 rindolf TimToady: I've been thinking of Latin, Greek, German or something.
18:49 rindolf TimToady: and I need to keep up with my Written Arabic.
18:49 rindolf Written Arabic is beautiful but often counter-intuitive.
18:49 rindolf and no longer actively spoken.
18:49 rindolf My friend has a theory that in 50 years Hebrew will be the Lingua Franca of the middle east.
18:50 rindolf Not Arabic.
18:50 TimToady Japanese has the advantage of teaching you to think in reverse polish
18:50 rindolf TimToady: heh.
18:50 rindolf TimToady: I wonder if Aristotle' Prior Analytics is any less opaque in the original Greek.
18:51 rindolf Or his Metaphysics.
18:51 TimToady depends on whether you speak original Greek I imagine :)
18:51 rindolf TimToady: ancient Greek.
18:51 rindolf Greek evolved quite a bit.
18:51 TimToady that too
18:52 rindolf From Linear B.
18:52 rindolf Now modern Greek is quite incompatible with it.
18:52 rindolf TimToady: do you want to learn Hebrew?
18:52 TimToady you can read the street sings
18:52 TimToady *signs
18:52 TimToady after I'm done with Japanese and Mandarin
18:52 rindolf TimToady: ah, cool.
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18:52 rindolf TimToady: can you ever be done with them?
18:53 rindolf TimToady: infi once showed me a web-site he prepared to learn Kanji.
18:53 rindolf TimToady: BTW, what's your source of income now?
18:53 TimToady once you learn Kanji you can read a certain amount of Chinese
18:54 TimToady $dayjob with Netlogic Microsystems
18:54 rindolf TimToady: I once joked that you have more $ in the bank than in your Perl code.
18:54 TimToady I'm doing the Linus trick of working for a hardware company
18:54 rindolf TimToady: ah.
18:54 TimToady eh?  must be a different TimToady--my net worth is quite negative at this point.
18:55 rindolf TimToady: hope Netlogic won't fare as Transmeta.
18:55 rindolf Trance-Metal
18:55 rindolf New anti-pop music genre.
18:55 TimToady they seem to be doing very well right now
18:55 rindolf TimToady: there are over 130 Larry Walls in the USA but only one that matters.
18:56 rindolf TimToady: who? Netlogic?
18:56 TimToady actually, two of them are me, last I checked...
18:57 TimToady and at that point there were 137 of us
18:58 rindolf TimToady: http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/for​tunes/shlomif.html#larry-wall-facts
18:58 lambdabot Title: Shlomi Fish's Quotes as Fortunes Cookies, http://tinyurl.com/6jnmyl
18:58 rindolf Any additions will be welcome.
18:59 TimToady I leave it to other people to figure out how to harvest email and irc these days.  :)
18:59 TimToady feel free to fix the capitalization and spelling of anything you find on irc from me.
19:00 rindolf TimToady: there isn't a Larry Wall junior, right?
19:00 rindolf I mean your son called that.
19:00 rindolf Do you have a son?
19:00 [particle1 yes, his name is Berlin
19:00 TimToady I name all my computers after famous walls
19:01 rindolf TimToady: ah.
19:01 rindolf TimToady: people called Wall?
19:01 TimToady no, famous walled cities
19:01 rindolf TimToady: or Berlin Wall? The western wall, etc.
19:01 rindolf TimToady: ah.
19:01 rindolf Do you have the Western Wall?
19:01 Auzon (wall naming scheme)++
19:01 TimToady kiev, london, beijing, edo, athens, troy, etc
19:02 rindolf TimToady: ah.
19:02 rindolf TimToady: Jerusalem.
19:02 rindolf London Wall is falling down....
19:02 rindolf Falling down.
19:02 rindolf Falling down.
19:02 rindolf Larry Wall will build a new one.
19:02 rindolf My fair lady!
19:02 rindolf Heh.
19:03 rindolf TimToady: I think Pugs was a mistake.
19:03 rindolf They spent too much effort on an implementation in a bad language.
19:03 TimToady you're entitled to your opinion, but every effort has taught us many things
19:03 rindolf TimToady: right.
19:04 TimToady and not just how not to do it
19:04 TimToady we have a test suite right now because of pugs
19:04 rindolf TimToady: ah.
19:04 rindolf Which Pugs fail some of the tests of it.
19:04 TimToady we now understand the synopses in much greater detail because of pugs
19:05 TimToady programming in Haskell forced us to answer some very important questions that would otherwise have never been asked
19:05 TimToady because Haskell don't stand for no nonsense... :)
19:05 rindolf I suppose 1 bird in the hand is better than 2 in the tree.
19:05 rindolf <TimToady> because Haskell don't stand for no nonsense... :) - pardon?
19:06 TimToady 1 bird in the hand *and* 2 in the tree beats the *or* version
19:06 spinclad which is good reason to revive pugs, if we can manage it
19:06 allbery_b rindolf: sloppy thinking and haskell don't mix
19:06 rindolf allbery_b: ah.
19:07 TimToady plus there are many simplifications that we noticed because of pugs
19:08 TimToady so basically, thinking that pugs was a mistake is a mistake
19:09 TimToady and it could yet turn out that pugs is the best implementation once we glue in a real compiler/regex engine
19:11 rindolf TimToady: http://www.shlomifish.org/scr​eenplay-xml-f6y8/outline.txt - new O'ReillyNet article that I'd like to write.
19:12 rindolf chromatic and the OnLAMP editor did not return to me.
19:12 rindolf I've used Perl and XML.
19:12 rindolf O'ReillyNet did not have too many articles recently.
19:12 rindolf Mostly blog posts.
19:14 rindolf Why can't they say "We got your email and will deal with it soon."
19:16 rindolf OTOH, an essay on my homepage was deprecated by chromatic. I feel so loved.
19:16 rindolf "My blog post was chromaticd. I pwn you as a blogger."
19:16 rindolf "My blog post was chromatic'd. I pwn you as a blogger."
19:17 rindolf TimToady: so BASIC was your first language?
19:17 TimToady no, English was my first language.  :)
19:18 rindolf TimToady: I started with XT ROM BASIC, but I suppose it was something like Perl 5 was to Perl 4 for your BASIC.
19:18 rindolf BASIC has greatly evolved since Dartmouth BASIC.
19:18 rindolf TimToady: ah.
19:18 rindolf TimToady: not Chomsky's Universal language?
19:18 TimToady feh
19:19 diakopter rindolf: what's the name of the Parrot implementation of Intercal?
19:19 Juerd 21:04 <@TimToady> we have a test suite right now because of pugs
19:19 Juerd Very, very important.
19:19 rindolf diakopter: I don't know.
19:19 rindolf Juerd: yes, very.
19:20 rindolf Juerd: anyway, I expect that at every given time all tests will pass.
19:20 Juerd Well, there are probably bad tests too :)
19:20 Juerd Given the volume of the suite, and that pugs has never been able to even parse everything :0
19:20 Juerd :)
19:20 TimToady testrot accounts for many of those :)
19:20 rindolf TimToady: testrot...
19:20 rindolf TimToady++
19:21 TimToady but a number of them were misunderstandings at the time
19:21 rindolf How long does it take Pugs to run the entire Pugs test suite?
19:21 rindolf Because Pugs is kinda slow.
19:21 diakopter defudge should be renamed Passover...
19:21 TimToady used to run on my old laptop in about 25 minutes
19:21 rindolf TimToady: or cute bugs.
19:21 rindolf I mean implementation details.
19:21 rindolf TimToady: kinda long.
19:22 TimToady audreyt's dual core used to run them in 10 minutes
19:23 TimToady I haven't tried on my new laptop, since I haven't installed the lates ghc yet
19:23 Juerd The old feather used to take 25 minutes. The new one'd probably be faster.
19:24 TimToady first make it run, then make it run right, then make it run fast
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19:24 rindolf TimToady: another problem with Pugs is that it kept requiring the latest ghc.
19:24 vixey joined #Perl6
19:25 Juerd Did pugs drive GHC development perhaps? :D
19:25 TimToady shrug, you shouldn't pick on a software project when it's down
19:26 TimToady Juerd: yes, I believe some of that happened too
19:29 rindolf TimToady: "After Death - say holy."
19:29 rindolf TimToady: it's a Hebrew phrase.
19:29 TimToady Actually, I'm just about out of After Death--I've got a bottle of Mega Death now too.
19:30 TimToady just had some on my potatoes, yum.
19:33 spinclad sounds hot
19:33 TimToady of the first six ingredients, five of them are hot.  Red habanero pods, cayenne chilies, white vinegar, natural pepper flavor, ancho chilies, chipotle chilies, molasses, guava nectar, fresh ginger, salt, spices.
19:33 TimToady 'bout 550,000 scovilles
19:34 TimToady After Death is only about 500k
19:34 TimToady Tobasco is only about 35k
19:35 TimToady Tabasco, 'scuse me
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19:35 spinclad tabasco i'm calibrated on -- now i can (only) imagine
19:36 TimToady so roughly 15 times hotter
19:36 spinclad 'add 1/15 drop per 100 potatoes'
19:37 TimToady I generally only use it about one "plop" at a time
19:37 TimToady unless I really want a large endorphin kick
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19:39 spinclad enjoy yr clear sinuses
19:39 rindolf TimToady: LOL.
19:39 rindolf TimToady+=5
19:39 rindolf "After Death"
19:39 rindolf Reminds me of that screensaver.
19:39 rindolf "After Hours"
19:39 vixey After Dark
19:40 vixey with the flying toasters?
19:40 rindolf vixey: yes, that's the one.
19:40 rindolf Also had a nice Looney Tunes one.
19:40 rindolf "I now proclaim this computer in the name of Mars!"
19:40 rindolf (Marvin the Martian)++
19:41 vixey they were cool
19:42 rindolf I recall something about wine being able to run Windows screensavers.
19:42 spinclad "where's the kaboom?  there was meant to be a case-shattering kaboom."
19:42 rindolf XScreenSaver is a pre-Autoconf hell from what I understood.
19:45 Auzon pugs: say ord(0); say ord(1);
19:45 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[48␤49␤]
19:46 Auzon rakudo: say +"a"
19:46 p6eval rakudo 28754: OUTPUT[0␤]
19:46 Auzon rakudo: say "a" > "1"
19:46 p6eval rakudo 28754: OUTPUT[0␤]
19:46 Auzon rakudo: say "a" gt "1"
19:46 p6eval rakudo 28754: OUTPUT[1␤]
19:51 Auzon perl6: say "a" cmp "1"
19:51 p6eval elf 21082: OUTPUT[1␤]
19:51 p6eval ..kp6 21082: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/Ki​ndaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤     ]
19:51 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
19:51 p6eval ..rakudo 28754: OUTPUT[1␤]
19:51 Auzon perl6: say "a" cmp 1
19:51 p6eval elf 21082: OUTPUT[1␤]
19:51 p6eval ..kp6 21082: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/Ki​ndaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤     ]
19:51 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
19:51 p6eval ..rakudo 28754: OUTPUT[1␤]
19:56 Auzon What context does cmp use in this case?
19:58 dolmen joined #perl6
19:58 rindolf TimToady: do you have an RSS reader?
19:59 rindolf Maybe say is an operator.
19:59 rindolf Auzon: ^^^
19:59 pmichaud say is a function.
19:59 rindolf pmichaud: ah.
19:59 rindolf pmichaud: but in perl 5 all built-ins are operators.
19:59 rindolf Well, they have prototypes.
20:00 Auzon rindolf: In Perl 6, all operators are functions.
20:00 rindolf Auzon: ah, cool.
20:00 rindolf I figured so.
20:00 pmichaud (but not all functions are operators :-)
20:00 Auzon just with funny names like infix:<~>
20:00 rindolf Auzon: but they have precedence.
20:01 Auzon re precedence, yes, but so do functions. :)
20:03 rindolf Auzon: ah, nice.
20:03 rindolf Auzon: did you figure out how macros are going to change the grammar on the fly?
20:03 rindolf Would it be something like Scheme's hygienic macros?
20:03 rindolf The (define-syntax stuff?
20:03 Auzon rindolf: I haven't investigated it beyond a brief look at S02's quoting section
20:03 pmurias joined #perl6
20:04 Auzon rindolf: Have you seen my factorial operator example?
20:04 rindolf I have yet to read that featured LtU article about Scheme's macro systems.
20:04 rindolf But I want to.
20:04 vixey every macro system goes in define-syntax
20:04 rindolf Auzon: I cna understand CL's and Arc's (defmacro Or (mac but they kinda suck.
20:05 vixey there's some hygienic and some non-hygienic
20:05 vixey defmacro is good in CL since you have multiple namespace, but that approach is not useful in scheme (with a single namespace)
20:05 vixey (except in rare circumstances)
20:06 rindolf vixey: ah. :S
20:06 rindolf vixey: CL's namespaces kinda suck.
20:06 rindolf I prefer Perl's
20:06 vixey no they don't
20:07 rindolf Which are nested.
20:07 rindolf Well, they are flat.
20:07 rindolf vixey: BTW, I'm renaming Park to Spark and continuing to design it.
20:07 rindolf And I'll probably start working on a Parrot implemetnation.
20:07 Auzon apparently my factorial example no longer works in Pugs here. :-/
20:08 rindolf It will be a Random-Tweakers project.
20:08 rindolf Auzon: bitrot!
20:08 Auzon Presumably so, since p6eval's environment was upgraded, and maybe Pugs was recompiled
20:09 rindolf Auzon: hmmm...
20:09 rindolf Auzon: isn't it pure-p6?
20:09 Auzon Pugs, no. Pugs is significantly Haskell
20:09 pmurias rindolf: what is Park/Spark?
20:09 Auzon anyway, here's my example: multi postfix:<!> (Int $a) {[*] 1 .. $a}; say 6!;
20:11 rindolf pmurias: http://www.shlomifish.org/ope​n-source/projects/Park-Lisp/
20:11 lambdabot Title: Documentation for the Park Lisp Dialect
20:11 rindolf pmurias: it's still incomplete.
20:11 rindolf And I haven't updated it.
20:11 rindolf Auzon: why does it have to be a multi-method?
20:12 Auzon It doesn't, but it allows another one to be declared for another signature
20:13 pmurias rindolf: if you like lisp/perl6 projects you might consider helping with a common lisp elf backend
20:15 rindolf pmurias: Common Lisp.
20:15 rindolf pmurias: thing is I think both CL and Scheme suck.
20:15 rindolf I like Lisp as a concept.
20:15 rindolf Arc is nice, but has too many implementation problems.
20:15 rindolf And missing features.
20:16 vixey Arc is not nice
20:16 rindolf I want to give a presentation to the Perl Mongers about "Foreign Languages: Lisp"
20:16 rindolf vixey: I like it.
20:16 rindolf Though I hate that "(not)" has become "(no)"
20:16 rindolf it's so non-English.
20:16 vixey it's just TCL with horrible syntax
20:16 rindolf vixey: but it's missing  a lot of exciting features.
20:17 pugs_svnbot r21083 | pmurias++ | [pixie] support for keeping arbitrary stuff inside {*} blocks and storing in in an external (to STD) filenot yet used/properly tested but i'm comiting as i rm it once before ;)
20:17 rindolf Which PG deemed (sp?) as unnecessary.
20:17 rindolf Doesn't look like the 100-years language to me.
20:17 rindolf Which is why - Spark!
20:18 pbuetow hmm.
20:18 pmurias why not just write an s-expression p6 dialect?
20:19 rindolf pmurias: could be.
20:19 rindolf pmurias: it's another approach.
20:19 rindolf But some things make sense in Lisp and not in p6.
20:19 rindolf For example, Perl does not like to use + for string or list concat.
20:19 rindolf While Python does and it seems to be OK in Arc too.
20:20 rindolf And in CL you have (concatenate) (yuck!).
20:20 pbuetow (((hehe)))
20:21 pmurias + for strings sucks
20:21 Auzon seconded.
20:21 vixey rindolf: If you don't like CONCATENATE you can just rename it
20:22 rindolf vixey: yeah.
20:29 vixey joined #Perl6
20:32 rindolf vixey: but I'd rather not rename concatenate because then people won't understand my code.
20:32 rindolf vixey: as TimToady said people hate abstractions.
20:32 vixey yes they will rindolf
20:33 rindolf They want things to work out of the box.
20:33 vixey A program is many many totally newly defined procedures
20:33 vixey just renaming one thing is nothing in the context if a big program
20:34 rindolf vixey: "let's spend 3 days creating a new language, and 1 day implementing the solution with it."
20:36 TimToady if it would take 10 days without the new language, it's worth it
20:36 rindolf TimToady: yeah.
20:36 rindolf TimToady: but this is the CL mentality.
20:36 vixey no it's not
20:36 rindolf Sometimes you can take 1 day to write an API.
20:36 vixey CL is too diverse you cannot generalize like that
20:36 rindolf vixey: I meant a common idiom there.
20:37 rindolf I think I'll /quit and do something productive.
20:37 rindolf Like work on Spark.
20:38 pugs_svnbot r21084 | pmurias++ | [elfX] fixed simple bugs actions, simple actions insertion/extraction roundtrip work
20:38 pmichaud pugs:  my $b = (1,2);  say $b.WHAT;
20:38 vixey another quote:
20:38 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Array␤]
20:38 vixey how to write any computer program in two easy stages:
20:38 vixey Design and implement the programming language which would be best for solving the problem.
20:38 vixey Write the program in the language you’ve just implemented.
20:38 pmichaud pugs:  my @b = (1,2);  say @b.WHAT;
20:38 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Array␤]
20:38 rindolf vixey: or just use Perl which is the best for everything.
20:38 pugs_svnbot r21085 | rhr++ | [p6types] shuffle methods around
20:38 pmichaud pugs:   my @a = (1,2,3);  my @b = (4,5);  push @a, @b;   say @a.elems;
20:38 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[5␤]
20:38 rindolf vixey: J/K.
20:39 vixey heh
20:39 pmichaud pugs:  my @a = (1,2,3);  my $b = (4,5);  push @a, $b;   say @a.elems;
20:39 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[4␤]
20:39 TimToady the second step is obvious--the best language for the job is one that does the job on a null input
20:40 * pmichaud notes that vixey's algorithm is somewhat recursive
20:40 TimToady "All rules of thumb are false, including this one."
20:40 pmurias rindolf: when you feel like writing Common Lisp backends, contact me or mncharity ;)
20:41 rindolf I wish my shlomif addresses didn't get banned from perl.org.
20:41 rindolf And I cannot effecitvley talk to ABH.
20:41 rindolf pmurias: ah.
20:42 pmurias rindolf: ABH = ?
20:42 rindolf pmurias: Ask Bjoern Hansen.
20:42 rindolf There's also Robert.
20:42 rindolf Spier IIRC.
20:44 rindolf In the Internet banning, kicking, etc. someone is so effortless so people abuse it too much.
20:44 rindolf I hate it when people say "Spam" to something low-quality, or flamatory.
20:44 rindolf Or that they refer to banning someone as kicking.
20:45 pmurias kicking people in real life definitly requires more effort
20:45 rindolf http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;c2coff=1&a​mp;safe=off&amp;q=geek2geek+blog&amp;btnG=Search - WTF?
20:46 rindolf pmurias: well, kicking on IRC is not like kicking IRL.
20:46 pmichaud okay, I'm a little confused again.  I'm trying to get rid of a rakudo cheat but I'm missing an important piece
20:46 rindolf You can tell this person to shut up.
20:46 TimToady isnt that what a /kick means? :)
20:46 pmichaud if we have  "my @b = (4,5)"  and "my $b = (4,5)", both @b and $b have type Array
20:47 pmichaud but push @foo, @b   and push @foo, $b   have different results
20:47 TimToady yes, well $b is technically Scalar of Array, i suppose
20:47 pmichaud ok, so $b is Scalar of Array
20:48 TimToady Scalars stay scalar in list context
20:48 pmichaud but what controls the flattening or non-flattening here?
20:48 pmichaud ohhhhh
20:48 Kenichiro joined #perl6
20:48 pmichaud that could make it very easy  :-|
20:48 Fieldy joined #perl6
20:48 Kenichiro Wanna Play Fun RPG game ? /q me or join #HypeRPG
20:48 pmichaud thanks.
20:49 TimToady commuting &
20:49 pmurias got to leave
20:51 t joined #perl6
20:52 Fieldy left #perl6
20:54 dolmen perl6: my @a = [ 1, 2 ]; @a.delete(1); @a.perl.say;
20:54 p6eval elf 21085: OUTPUT[[1]␤]
20:54 p6eval ..kp6 21085: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 39, line 1 column 39:␤my @a = [ 1, 2 ]; @a.delete(1); @a.perl.say␤                                       ^ HERE␤]
20:54 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[\(\(1, 2),)␤]
20:54 p6eval ..rakudo 28758: OUTPUT[[[1, 2]]␤]
20:54 dolmen perl6: my @a = [ 1, 2 ]; @a.delete(0); @a.perl.say;
20:54 p6eval elf 21085: OUTPUT[[undef,2]␤]
20:54 p6eval ..kp6 21085: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 39, line 1 column 39:␤my @a = [ 1, 2 ]; @a.delete(0); @a.perl.say␤                                       ^ HERE␤]
20:54 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[\()␤]
20:54 p6eval ..rakudo 28758: OUTPUT[[]␤]
20:56 rindolf TimToady: yes.
20:57 t left #perl6
21:05 pugs_svnbot r21086 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] Added more cmp, leg, and <=> tests. Tested the values of Order::*. Added some tests for explicitly disallowed Perl 5 syntax. (added 14 tests)
21:05 pugs_svnbot r21086 | Auzon++ | Also removed some unneeded smartlinks and updated formatting in general.
21:05 dolmen in rakudo, where is implemented the operator [] for arrays?
21:06 pmichaud it's currently given as PAST::Val keyed_int node
21:07 pmichaud src/parser/actions.pm:972
21:08 pmichaud (or thereabouts -- I have a locally modified copy of actions.pm at the moment)
21:13 justatheory joined #perl6
21:21 pmichaud uh oh, rakudo doesn't know Order:: yet.
21:21 dolmen what is Order:: ?
21:21 pmichaud that's what gets returned by the various comparison ops
21:22 Auzon Order::Increase, Order::Same, Order::Decrease numify to -1, 0, 1 in that order
21:22 pmichaud 'a' gt 'b'    returns Order::Increase
21:22 dolmen ok
21:22 pmichaud sorry, 'a' cmp 'b' returns ...
21:22 Auzon erm, pmichaud, I thought that returned Bool::True
21:22 Auzon yeah
21:22 pmichaud right, wrong op :-)
21:23 pmichaud I may just cheat Order:: for now :-)
21:23 pmichaud otherwise we fail the spectest_regressions ...
21:24 Auzon I don't know what they need to do other than numify properly
21:25 pmichaud I _really_ wish we had automatic email of changes to pugs svn repo.
21:25 dolmen they have to perl-ify properly too
21:25 pmichaud it would be much easier to keep track of changes
21:26 pmichaud (to the spec tests)
21:26 pmichaud otherwise I start getting spectest_regression failures and I have to go track it down.
21:29 dolmen I have created S02-builtin_data_types/range yesterday and it fails
21:29 pmichaud it may be fixed soon :-)
21:29 pmichaud the one I'm having trouble with at the moment is S04-declarations/multiple.t
21:30 pmichaud I'm getting a failure and I don't know if it's because the test changed or if it's something I did.
21:31 pmichaud (but please don't take this as an indication that I don't want the test files to change.. I'll gladly hunt down changes if it means the test suite is improving, which it is)
21:31 pmichaud (I just wish pugs svn was sending me email notifications about it :-)
21:32 dolmen how do you get verbose output of tests?
21:32 dolmen 'make localtest' is too quiet
21:33 pmichaud there's not a really good way to do it.
21:33 dolmen It doesn't say which test failed
21:33 pmichaud normally I just run them directly
21:34 Auzon Same here
21:34 pmichaud (doesn't say which test failed)   depends on what version of T::H you have.
21:34 pmichaud (Test::Harness)
21:34 pmichaud on my system it tells me which tests failed
21:34 Auzon If I'm testing fudge, I'll do something like: ../../parrot perl6.pbc `fudge blah blah`
21:34 pmichaud I typically do   ./parrot perl6.pbc t/spec/S00-whatever/foo.t
21:34 pmichaud or
21:35 pmichaud ./parrot perl6.pbc t/spec/S00-whatever/foo.rakudo
21:35 dolmen you mean 'parrot perl6.pbc t/spec/...
21:35 dolmen ?
21:35 dolmen :)
21:35 pmichaud yes, but I'll choose the .t or .rakudo test as appropriate
21:36 pmichaud (the .rakudo version of the is the fudged version)
21:36 pmichaud *of the test is ....
21:36 pmichaud (can't type. argggh!)
21:42 eternaleye joined #perl6
21:49 * Auzon was not aware that {my $x; my $x} was legal
21:53 TimToady yes, what you cannot do is { $x; my $x } since the first $x is bound to an outer $x
21:53 Auzon so sub foo ($x) {my $x} is invalid?
21:54 TimToady perhaps only because the signature's declaration of the lexical is readonly, which conflicts
21:57 TimToady note that the compiler is allowed to warn about {my $x; my $x} unless you say proto $x up front.
21:58 TimToady but it's just a warning, and both $x's are the same $x
21:58 TimToady so we don't have to figure out scopes of the form "here to the end of the block"
21:59 Auzon Yeah, makes sense
21:59 TimToady especially when looking up the dynamic stack
22:00 TimToady and since {$x; my $x} presumably captures a link from $x to $OUTER::$x on the first $x, we can note the collision
22:08 pugs_svnbot r21087 | pmichaud++ | S04-declarations/multiple.t:  rakudo doesn't understand "state" yet
22:10 rakudo_svn r28762 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
22:10 rakudo_svn r28762 | pmichaud++ | * Clean up handling of Array, eliminate Arrayref cheats
22:25 pmichaud my @array = [ 1, 2, 3 ];    # does @array have 3 elements, or 1?
22:25 hercynium joined #perl6
22:26 pmichaud perl6: my @array = [ 1, 2, 3 ];    # does @array have 3 elements, or 1?
22:26 p6eval elf 21087: RESULT[[1,2,3]␤]
22:26 p6eval ..kp6 21087: OUTPUT[substr outside of string at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaP​erl6/Runtime/Perl5/MP6Runtime.pm line 98, <> line 1.␤substr outside of string at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaP​erl6/Runtime/Perl5/MP6Runtime.pm line 98, <> line 1.␤substr outside of string at
22:26 p6eval ..compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/l...
22:26 p6eval ..pugs: RESULT[\(\(1, 2, 3),)]
22:26 p6eval ..rakudo 28762: RESULT[[1, 2, 3]]
22:26 dolmen pugs: say 1..5 ~ 3;
22:26 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[12345678910111213141516171819​202122232425262728293031323334353637​38394041424344454647484950515253␤]
22:26 dolmen pugs: say 1..5 ~~ 3;
22:26 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[␤]
22:26 dolmen pugs: say (1..5) ~~ 3;
22:26 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[␤]
22:27 dolmen pugs: say Bool::True;
22:27 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
22:27 dolmen pugs: say ((1..5) ~~ 3);
22:27 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[␤]
22:27 dolmen pugs: say ((1..5) ~~ 3).WHAT;
22:27 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Bool␤]
22:27 dolmen pugs: say !((1..5) ~~ 3);
22:27 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
22:27 pmichaud (note that ~~ is not commutative.)
22:27 dolmen pugs: say Bool::False;
22:27 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[␤]
22:28 dolmen pmichaud, yes, I'm checking that in S02-builtins/range.t
22:28 dolmen (not yet committed)
22:29 pmichaud ...you're checking that ~~ is not commutative?
22:29 dolmen no
22:29 dolmen I want to check that "(1..5) ~~ 3" fails
22:30 dolmen pugs: say (3 ~~ (1..5)).perl;
22:30 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Bool::False␤]
22:30 dolmen pugs: say (3 !~~ (1..5)).perl;
22:30 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Bool::True␤]
22:31 dolmen pugs: say (3 ~~ (4..5)).perl;
22:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Bool::False␤]
22:31 pmichaud rakudo:  say (3 ~~ (1..5)).perl
22:31 p6eval rakudo 28762: OUTPUT[Bool::True␤]
22:31 dolmen pugs: say ((1..5) ~~ 3).perl;
22:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Bool::False␤]
22:31 dolmen rakudo: say ((1..5) ~~ 3).perl;
22:32 p6eval rakudo 28762: OUTPUT[get_number() not implemented in class 'Range'␤current instr.: 'parrot;Int;ACCEPTS' pc 1897 (src/gen_builtins.pir:1327)␤]
22:32 dolmen this is ok
22:32 pmichaud haven't implemented that part yet, but it'll return "5"
22:32 dolmen why 5?
22:32 pmichaud because that's the numification of a range containing 5 elements
22:32 dolmen rakudo: say (+(1..5) ~~ 3).perl;
22:33 p6eval rakudo 28762: OUTPUT[get_number() not implemented in class 'Range'␤current instr.: 'prefix:+' pc 11636 (src/gen_builtins.pir:7754)␤]
22:33 dolmen rakudo: say (+(1..5)).perl;
22:33 p6eval rakudo 28762: OUTPUT[get_number() not implemented in class 'Range'␤current instr.: 'prefix:+' pc 11636 (src/gen_builtins.pir:7754)␤]
22:33 pmichaud pugs:  say +(1..5)
22:33 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[5␤]
22:33 pmichaud pugs:  say +(6..14)
22:33 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[9␤]
22:33 dolmen ok
22:34 dolmen pugs: say (+('a'..'zz'));
22:34 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[702␤]
22:35 dolmen pugs: say (+('a'..'ab'));
22:35 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[28␤]
22:35 pmichaud when the second operand to ~~ is a number, then it's the same as doing ==
22:36 dolmen pugs: say (+('0'..'f'));
22:36 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[10␤]
22:36 dolmen pugs: say (('0'..'f'));
22:36 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[0123456789␤]
22:39 zostay joined #perl6
22:40 TimToady pugs: say (1..9).WHAT
22:40 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Array␤]
22:40 TimToady note that pugs doesn't implement Range yet
22:47 alester joined #perl6
22:47 pugs_svnbot r21088 | dolmen++ | More Range tests.
22:47 pugs_svnbot r21088 | dolmen++ | Rakudo TODOs:
22:47 pugs_svnbot r21088 | dolmen++ | - .ACCEPTS for Range
22:47 pugs_svnbot r21088 | dolmen++ | - numification of Range
22:53 dolmen karma dolmen
22:57 dolmen pmichaud: is ":vtable('get_integer')" the numification?
22:57 pmichaud :vtable('get_number'), actually
22:57 TimToady @karma dolme
22:57 lambdabot dolme has a karma of 0
22:57 pugs_svnbot r21089 | lwall++ | [STD] removed redundant regex_ from Regex:: names
22:57 TimToady @karma dolmen
22:57 lambdabot dolmen has a karma of 6
22:57 pmichaud (it needs to work for get_integer also, yes :-)
22:58 pmichaud TimToady:  if you have a moment, my question above:    my @a = [1, 4, 10];   causes @a to have one element or three ?
22:58 TimToady one
22:58 pmichaud yay
22:58 pmichaud thanks.
22:58 TimToady := would make three
22:58 pmichaud right
22:58 pmichaud okay, I'm happy happy happy about that
22:58 dolmen :)
22:59 pmichaud so then
22:59 TimToady most p5 programmers will also be happy about that :)
22:59 pmichaud my @array = [ 11 .. 15 ];
22:59 pmichaud is(@array[0].elems,  5, 'arrayref has 5 elements');
22:59 pmichaud is wrong
22:59 pmichaud (from t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/flattening.t)
22:59 Kattana joined #perl6
22:59 TimToady why? it has a [0]
22:59 pmichaud oh
22:59 pmichaud so it does
23:00 pmichaud okay, never mind then
23:00 pmichaud I misread the test :-(
23:00 pmichaud thanks again
23:00 dolmen it is misleading
23:00 TimToady was there just a buzzing in the air around here?
23:00 pmichaud I don't know.  I know there's a lot of background events at my house right now :-|
23:01 TimToady now to implement :i...
23:01 TimToady (or not use :i in STD.pm :)
23:02 pmichaud oh, I see where I went wrong.  I don't have postcircumfix:<[ ]> implemented on Range yet.
23:02 pmichaud or... hrm.
23:02 pmichaud I'll figure it out in a bit.
23:03 dolmen I could do it
23:05 dolmen well, if it is in actions.pm, if fact no.
23:05 dolmen s/if/in/
23:08 dolmen I see no references to keyed_int in Array.pir
23:09 dolmen how is keyed_int implemented?
23:09 dolmen is it a Parrot or PCT builtin?
23:20 dolmen elf: my $a = (1..20)[3];
23:20 p6eval elf 21089: OUTPUT[Can't use string ("1E0") as an ARRAY ref while "strict refs" in use at (eval 117) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
23:21 dolmen perl6: my $a = (1..20)[3];
23:21 p6eval elf 21089: OUTPUT[Can't use string ("1E0") as an ARRAY ref while "strict refs" in use at (eval 117) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
23:21 p6eval ..kp6 21089: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 6, line 1 column 6:␤my $a = (1..20)[3]␤      ^ HERE␤]
23:21 p6eval ..pugs: RESULT[\4]
23:21 p6eval ..rakudo 28763: OUTPUT[get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Range'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 55 (EVAL_14:25)␤]
23:23 Pzt joined #perl6
23:32 japhb joined #perl6
23:40 mjk joined #perl6

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