Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-07-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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03:59 TimToady moritz_: no particular speed goal for STD5 other than "fast enough to bootstrap something else"
04:00 TimToady most of the slowness comes from using almost none of the built-in Perl 5 regex engine
04:01 TimToady so presumably with better builtin support of P6 regexes we can get to something approaching the speed at which gimme5 parses STD.pm
04:02 TimToady alternately, we can speed up STD5 by doing more aggressive ratchet optimizations to discover more spots that can map directly into P5 regexen
04:03 TimToady but the overriding goal of STD5 was to implement correct semantics rather than fast
04:07 TimToady gah, the firewall here doesn't allow PROPFIND, so I can't get at svn directly... :(
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04:42 rakudo_svn r28991 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:
04:42 rakudo_svn r28991 | pmichaud++ | * Clean up placeholder variable actions.
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05:03 rakudo_svn r28992 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  change 'process_contextualizer' to 'contextualizer_name'
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05:25 rakudo_svn r28995 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: methods should be .blocktype('method') instead of using pirflags
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07:35 pugs_svnbot r21171 | moritz++ | [spec] unfudged a passing test, autounfudge++
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11:21 pugs_svnbot r21172 | moritz++ | [t/TASKS] add todo for junction tests
11:37 pugs_svnbot r21173 | moritz++ | [t] statements/for.t: major cleanup
11:40 pugs_svnbot r21174 | moritz++ | [spec] moved for.t to spec/, updated POD
11:49 pugs_svnbot r21175 | moritz++ | [spec] fudged for.t. Fails with 'Null PMC access in type()'
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12:10 pugs_svnbot r21176 | moritz++ | [spec] enhanced index.t a bit
12:11 rakudo_svn r29006 | moritz++ | [rakudo] implement Str.index, patch curtesy by bacek++ (Vasily Chekalkin)
12:18 rakudo_svn r29007 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add S29-str/index.t to spectest_regression.
12:18 rakudo_svn r29007 | moritz++ | bacek++ for implementing
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12:45 rakudo_svn r29008 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: coding stds in src/classes/Str.pir .
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12:52 pugs_svnbot r21177 | moritz++ | [spec] improved fudge messages in log.t
12:52 pugs_svnbot r21178 | ruoso++ | [SMOP] p6opaque delegates method calls to the how (still not working)
12:52 pugs_svnbot r21179 | ruoso++ | [SMOP] p6opaque now uses sm0p block, so needs to be renamed
12:55 pugs_svnbot r21180 | ruoso++ | [SMOP] updating Makefile.am
12:58 ruoso interesting... it's the first time I write a long block of sm0p code that simply works at first attempt
12:58 moritz_ ruoso: that's called "practise" ;-)
13:00 ruoso it seems that p6opaque is succesfully dispatching non-repr calls to the metaclass
13:01 pugs_svnbot r21181 | moritz++ | [spec] fixed complex log10() tests
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13:33 rakudo_svn r29010 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress update: 83 files, 1365 passing tests
13:34 ruoso @tell pmurias, can you please provide me some guidance on how to use your sm0p parser? the kp6 parser is too much slow, and p6opaque already have two blocks... so it's starting to be a real pain....
13:34 lambdabot Consider it noted.
13:34 moritz_ wohoo - that makes our graph look quite nice
13:37 pmichaud http://www.pmichaud.com/perl6​/rakudo-tests-2008-07-03.png
13:37 moritz_ or on http://rakudo.de/
13:37 lambdabot Title: Rakudo - A Perl 6 Compiler
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13:52 moritz_ ruoso: it seems that pmurias either forget to commit a file, or his 'brew' script is wrong
13:53 ruoso hmm
13:54 ruoso sm0p.pl takes forever to parse p6opaque.sm0p now that it has two blocks
13:54 moritz_ (I'm talking about misc/sm0p/ )
13:55 ruoso moritz_, I know...
14:01 ruoso $ (cd src; time perl ../sm0p.pl .. p6opaque.sm0p p6opaque.c) --> real    1m6.884s, user    1m6.360s
14:01 ruoso gah
14:02 moritz_ that's a good reason to switch to elf ;)
14:05 pugs_svnbot r21182 | ruoso++ | [smop] some more work in p6opaque, delegation almost working... I need to finish the "setting how" method, so I can effectively test the delegation
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14:12 Ontolog Which is more complete Rakudo or Pugs?
14:12 SamB isn't there some kind of test status comparison page which would allow you to form your own answer to that question?
14:13 vixey Pugs
14:13 moritz_ Ontolog: pugs
14:14 Ontolog Thanks
14:14 moritz_ pugs passes well over ten thousand tests in the official test suite, rakudo 1300 or something
14:14 Ontolog Is the Perl 6 specification still being worked on?
14:14 moritz_ yes
14:14 Ontolog or is everything now just to be implemented?
14:14 Ontolog i see
14:15 SamB and pugs spawned the testsuite, didn't it?
14:15 PerlJam Well ... to be fair, the "official test suite" was written for pugs originally, so there may be bogus tests in there since the design has changed
14:15 pmichaud implementation issues often cause minor tweaks to the specification
14:15 pmichaud and I always think of the "official test suite" as t/spec
14:15 pmichaud (which doesn't have 10,000 tests in it yet :-)
14:15 DietCoke PerlJam: that just means that when rakudo overtakes pugs, it will do so violently.
14:15 Ontolog haha sorry i started a flame war
14:15 moritz_ PerlJam: yes, that why said "well over 10k", not "roughly 17k" ;)
14:15 pmichaud moritz_++
14:15 DietCoke ah, I like pmichaud's way of thinking. =-)
14:16 moritz_ Ontolog: no flame, just discussion
14:16 DietCoke we're all friends here. =-)
14:16 pmichaud Ontolog: we're still clarifying terms among ourselfs
14:16 pmichaud *ourselves
14:16 Ontolog Is there a CPAN for Perl 6?
14:16 pmichaud SamB: yes, pugs spawned the test suite
14:16 moritz_ not yet
14:16 vixey yes CPAN
14:16 PerlJam Ontolog: yes, it's called CPAN  :)
14:16 Ontolog haha
14:16 moritz_ vixey: where?
14:16 Ontolog are you serious?
14:17 SamB cpan.org isn't it ?
14:17 Ontolog shouldn't there be like a seperate CPAN just for perl 6?
14:17 vixey moritz_: There's no Perl 6 yet.. but when there is it will work with CPAN
14:17 SamB why?
14:17 moritz_ SamB: I see no perl 6 modules on cpan (only perl 5 moduls named Perl6::)
14:17 SamB doesn't it just have a seperate namespace or something?
14:17 vixey Ontolog: that sounds like a bad idea
14:17 SamB oh.
14:17 pmichaud we'll undoubtedly need some way to distinguish perl 6 modules from perl 5 ones
14:17 moritz_ current cpan.org and CPAN.pm doesn'T have a way to tell which language a module is written in
14:18 SamB so that will need some redesign
14:18 moritz_ Ontolog: the plan for CPAN6 is to allow packaging of modules in arbitrary languages
14:18 SamB and those Perl6:: modules are going to confuse matters
14:18 SamB oh, so CPAN6 will replace Debian?
14:18 * pmichaud goes back to working on implicit vars
14:18 PerlJam SamB: no.
14:18 moritz_ SamB: no
14:18 SamB hehehehe
14:18 moritz_ SamB: Debian is mostly there for binary distribution
14:18 SamB Gentoo?
14:18 Ontolog I see, so there will indeed be a separate CPAN :p
14:19 PerlJam Assuming everything works as we intend, CPAN will likely keep it same name, only the P will change meaning
14:19 moritz_ Ontolog: well, we don't know yet if we morph existing CPAN into what we want it to be, or rewrite it and embrace the old stuff
14:19 SamB but it will probably be hosted on cpan6.org
14:19 moritz_ SamB: both Debian and Gentoo are OS-Specific
14:19 Ontolog ok here's a better question, if I were to write a Perl 6 module that I wanted to share, where would I put it?
14:20 SamB sadly so :-(
14:20 PerlJam Ontolog: CPAN.
14:20 moritz_ Ontolog: currently in the pugs repo
14:20 SamB Ontolog: in a public repository
14:20 moritz_ Ontolog: that's where other Perl 6 modules live as well
14:20 SamB which can be contributed to easily
14:20 PerlJam Ontolog: or anywhere else you like.
14:20 SamB maybe pugs repository needs a rename?
14:20 moritz_ SamB: why?
14:20 SamB if it has everything perl6
14:21 moritz_ SamB: everybody(tm) knows it hosts much more than pugs ;)
14:21 SamB how about perl6fun
14:21 * pmichaud looks at perl6fun.org
14:21 moritz_ not found
14:21 moritz_ GO GRAB IT!
14:21 SamB grr
14:21 SamB why did verisign have to go and give my ISP ideas???
14:22 SamB % host perl6fun.org
14:22 SamB perl6fun.org        A65.200.200.35
14:22 SamB perl6fun.org        A63.251.179.51
14:22 moritz_ SamB: I hope you didn't use a browser? that's what 'whois' is for
14:23 moritz_ SamB: ok, that sucks mightily
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14:23 moritz_ Ontolog: if you want to put something perl 6 related into the pugs repo, you can easily get a commit bit
14:23 SamB moritz_: indeed, you would be hard pressed to avoid one
14:31 Ontolog moritz_: I was just thinking today about doing something with Perl6
14:31 Ontolog moritz_: but I'm not sure what haha
14:31 Ontolog moritz_: are you guys at the point where you are writing Perl6 modules to implement parts of the standard or is the whole thing in Haskell?
14:32 moritz_ Ontolog: pugs is written in haskell, but has a prelude (ie standard library) in Perl6...
14:32 PerlJam Ontolog: As far as I'm concerned, rakudo is perl 6 and pugs is an interesting prototype :)
14:32 pmichaud rakudo is currently writing the major components of the compiler in Perl 6
14:32 moritz_ Ontolog: but pugs isn't being worked on
14:33 moritz_ pmichaud: except runtime.
14:33 Ontolog hmm
14:33 pmichaud moritz_: I don't consider the runtime as part of the compiler :-)
14:33 pmichaud but yes, we'll be writing the runtime components in Perl 6 soon also
14:33 Ontolog but there is nobody in #Rakudo
14:33 moritz_ which is slightly ironic, because that's where most compilers start to allow the usage of the native language
14:33 pmichaud the rakudo folks hang out here or on irc.perl.org/#parrot
14:33 moritz_ Ontolog: that's because rakudo is being discussed either here or on #parrot on irc.perl.org
14:34 pmichaud we don't need our own channel :-)
14:34 Ontolog haha
14:34 Ontolog but how am I going to write Perl 6 modules if Rakudo doesn't even implement most of the standard?
14:35 pmichaud ...doesn't even implement most of the standard?
14:35 moritz_ use the subset that is already supoprted
14:35 Ontolog moritz_: haha ok good idea
14:35 Ontolog pmichaud: err maybe i'm wrong sorry
14:35 moritz_ for example most object orientation features are supported
14:35 PerlJam Ontolog: how are you going to write Perl 6 modules if <insert any perl 6 compiler> doesn't implement most of the standard?  ;)
14:35 pmichaud note that it's difficult to measure how much of a standard is implemented based on the size/composition of the test suite
14:36 Ontolog what is Rakudo written in?
14:36 pmichaud the compiler is Perl 6
14:36 pmichaud the runtime libraries are PIR
14:36 PerlJam pm: it's difficult to measure anything when everything is in flux :)
14:36 pmichaud (so far)
14:36 Ontolog PIR?
14:36 pmichaud PIR is parrot's low-level language
14:36 Ontolog shit
14:36 Ontolog is it easier than Haskell?
14:36 moritz_ Ontolog: a variety of languages, which include NQP (not quite perl6), Perl 6 rules, PIR, C
14:36 pmichaud *much* easier
14:36 moritz_ aye
14:37 pmichaud and long-term we'll only be using PIR for the primitives
14:37 pmichaud i.e., those things that can't be easily or efficiently written in Perl 6
14:37 Ontolog but moritz_ said C
14:37 Ontolog which parts are written in C?
14:37 pmichaud there is some C, yes -- for very low-level types
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14:37 pmurias ruoso: ping
14:38 moritz_ Ontolog: the so-called "PMCs" or "Parrot Magical Cookies", which are parrot extensions
14:38 Ontolog haha, you said PMCs
14:38 pmichaud the only pieces written in C at the moment are Scalar containers and the string-to-number conversions
14:38 * Ontolog has been playing MGS4 recently
14:38 Ontolog I see, so the C parts are all done right?
14:39 pmichaud well, there will undoubtedly be more as we try to improve efficiencies, but I'm trying to keep as much out of C as I can
14:39 PerlJam Ontolog: nothing is "all done" yet :)
14:39 moritz_ Ontolog: considering that parrot is mostly written in C, and it's our runtime, I wouldn'T say "all done" ;-)
14:39 Ontolog The special thing about the Parrot is that it can convert between one language and another right?
14:40 pmichaud Parrot has a lot of special things :-)
14:40 pmichaud but it's intended to be a runtime environment for multiple dynamic languages
14:40 pmichaud so, it doesn't convert between languages as much as it allows them to run together
14:40 Ontolog it's like a JVM right?
14:41 pmichaud yes, but more dynamic
14:41 moritz_ yes and no
14:41 Ontolog why not just compiler Perl6 code to JVM byte code?
14:41 pmichaud because JVM isn't dynamic enough :-)
14:41 moritz_ Ontolog: because JVM doesn't suppport dynamic types very well
14:41 PerlJam This sort of "education session" would make a good perl.com article (or something with wide distribution)
14:41 pmichaud PerlJam:  ...write it!
14:41 Ontolog haha
14:41 PerlJam pm: wish I had the time to.
14:41 moritz_ Ontolog: and no continuations and stuff
14:41 Ontolog Just post this IRC log
14:42 moritz_ I could make a summary of it
14:42 pmichaud yeah, the IRC log itself is pretty good
14:42 pmichaud Ontolog asks good questions in the right sequence :-)
14:43 Ontolog haha thanks
14:44 * pmichaud goes back to implicit vars.
14:45 ruoso pmurias, I'm going for lunch now... I should be back in a hour, maybe a little more...
14:45 pmurias ok
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14:48 [particle] pmichaud: can't you take an .implicit_lunch?
14:49 pugs_svnbot r21183 | pmurias++ | [sm0p] fixed brew
14:50 * DietCoke is sure some intrepid soul will make a perl6 on JVM.
14:57 ruoso DietCoke, the problem with that is that it will perform worst than Java... because it will be a runtime on top of another...
14:57 * ruoso now really going for lunch
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15:08 Juerd One of feather's hard drives just failed
15:08 moritz_ D'oh
15:08 Juerd So I'm going to replace it quickly. If you have open files, save them :)
15:09 Juerd (feather doesn't have hot swappable hardware)
15:09 SamB Juerd: shutdown does display a message ;-P
15:10 moritz_ SamB: it's nice to inform us in advance nonetheless ;)
15:10 SamB true, true
15:10 SamB after all you might be wasting time on IRC rather than actively editing
15:10 SamB but then, that's what autosave files are for
15:10 Juerd SamB: I know, but from my experience, several people pay more attention to IRC than to wallmessages.
15:11 Juerd And here, people who aren't logged in can also see what's going on.
15:11 Juerd After all, you will see several people timeout after a while :)
15:11 Juerd Or connection reset by peer, etc.
15:15 Ontolog shit
15:15 Ontolog I just installed parrot and I get: parrot: error while loading shared libraries: libparrot.so.0.6.3: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
15:15 Ontolog what did I do wrong?
15:16 moritz_ Ontolog: can you run it locally? (ie ./parrot)
15:21 [particle] Ontolog: you installed parrot
15:21 Ontolog yes did make install
15:22 Ontolog after make test and and make and perl Makefile.PL
15:22 Ontolog I will try to run it locally hold on
15:22 Ontolog same result
15:22 [particle] and you read what it says, about install not working well
15:22 [particle] and you must run make reallyinstall if you really want to install it
15:22 Ontolog i did
15:22 Ontolog run reallyinstall
15:22 [particle] well, ok then.
15:22 Ontolog i read that it said if you want to develop parrot on the same machine it doesnt't work well
15:23 Ontolog yes so what is the biff?
15:23 Ontolog why can't it find the librarY?
15:23 [particle] hrmm, maybe that message is confusing, then
15:23 Ontolog /usr/local/lib does indeed have libparrot.so.0.6.3
15:23 [particle] we parrot developers run parrot from the build directory
15:23 [particle] none of us install it
15:24 Ontolog haha
15:24 [particle] if you want to have an installed parrot, and develop parrot, you're asking for trouble
15:24 Ontolog well im not so much at the "wanting to develop parrot" stage yet
15:24 Ontolog i'm more at seeing wtf it is all about
15:24 Ontolog is there a make uninstall?
15:24 [particle] no
15:24 [particle] hence the problems
15:25 Ontolog shit! you guys screwed me! I'm suiing
15:25 Ontolog sueing!
15:25 Ontolog haha
15:25 Ontolog yeah running parrot in the build directory works
15:25 Ontolog what a load of crap
15:25 Ontolog how do I find and delete everything parrot under /usr/local?
15:25 Ontolog I will run it from the build like you guys
15:26 [particle] i'm a windows guy, mostly, so i won't be much help with that
15:26 Ontolog sorry my what a load of crap statement not about parrot about my rushing into installing it haha
15:26 Ontolog a windows guy working on Perl 6?
15:26 Ontolog hehehe
15:26 Ontolog did you every try linux (or bsd or some such)?
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15:27 [particle] i have at least seven different linux virtual machines
15:27 Ontolog i see
15:27 Ontolog i like to run linux on the host and windows as a guest
15:27 [particle] i've got BeOS running, too... well, Haiku anyway
15:27 Ontolog so your not exactly "a windows guy" :p
15:27 DietCoke ... you have to ignore a warning about not installing to install it. =-)
15:28 Ontolog DietCoke: that warning was about not installing it and developing it at the same time!!!!!!!!!!111!!!1!!
15:28 * DietCoke catches up.
15:29 Ontolog it's cool I have the list of all the files that got installed
15:29 Ontolog and I will delete all them shits
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16:01 masak joined #perl6
16:01 masak I've been thinking
16:01 masak often enough I want to access adjacent elements in for loops
16:02 masak it bugs me that I have to resort to an index variable just to acheive that
16:02 ruoso joined #perl6
16:02 masak is there a way I could get around this using Perl 6?
16:03 Auzon for @array -> $a, $b {}
16:03 masak Auzon: well, then I get them pairwise
16:03 masak that's not exactly what I want
16:03 cjfields is that working with Rakudo?
16:03 Auzon Oh, processing multiple arrays in parallel?
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16:03 cjfields yes
16:03 masak Auzon: that could be the solution, if I could shift the same array out of place one step
16:04 Auzon I know where it is. Give me a minute
16:04 masak I'm thinking something along the lines of for @a -> $e { ... $e.prev ... }
16:04 Auzon oh. hm.
16:04 masak but that's syntactically confusing, because .prev is more of a macro than a method on $e
16:04 Auzon Let me check S04
16:05 moritz_ masak: my @x = ...; my @y = @x; @x.shift; for @x Z @y -> $a, $b { ... }
16:05 masak moritz_: yes. that works
16:06 moritz_ or better, for @x Z @x[1..*] -> $a, $b {..}
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16:06 masak now we're talking
16:06 moritz_ ;)
16:06 Auzon There we go, that's like what I was thinking.
16:07 Auzon only note is that the final element of @x is repeated in the second array
16:07 moritz_ is it?
16:07 moritz_ perhaps @x Z @x[1..@x.end] then
16:08 Auzon Or maybe that was with ranges instead
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16:08 * masak likes Perl 6
16:08 moritz_ ranges don't sound Haskellish enough for that sort of problem ;)
16:10 Auzon ok. zip stops as soon as the first one is exhausted
16:11 moritz_ the first item in a smartlink, does it have to be =head1? or an arbitrary =head\d ?
16:11 Auzon roundrobin can be used to avoid this issue
16:11 moritz_ after the L<S\d\d/ that is ;)
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16:12 Auzon moritz_: I think it can match anything in the table of contents.
16:13 moritz_ Auzon: ok, thanks
16:16 kanru joined #perl6
16:18 moritz_ Juerd++ # brining feather back up in about no time
16:18 moritz_ even commitbit works again
16:19 wknight8111 joined #perl6
16:22 Juerd moritz_: I'm confused that you call this no-time
16:23 moritz_ Juerd: I did something in between, so the time had passed switfly ;-)
16:23 Juerd moritz_: So did I - we had a small power outage in one of our breaker/fuse groups
16:24 Juerd The one that has feather, so the shutdown+powerup was nicely done around that. No suffering on feather, but plenty on 2 other machines.
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16:36 moritz_ wait. Where did our precious pugs_svnbot go?
16:37 Auzon Good question
16:37 Auzon I was just checking :)
16:37 moritz_ maybe I should start one on timtowtdi.org
16:37 Auzon Who runs it normally?
16:37 moritz_ SLAVES says it's diakopter
16:38 moritz_ but istr that he's on vacation
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16:38 Auzon If Rakudo had sockets, I'd offer to make a pure Perl 6 one :P
16:39 Auzon But yeah, we can start one on timtowtdi.org
16:39 moritz_ Auzon: do that. After you soc project ;-)
16:39 moritz_ s/you/your/
16:39 pugs_svn joined #perl6
16:40 pugs_svn r21183 | pmurias++ | [sm0p] fixed brew
16:40 pugs_svn r21184 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] reorganization and smartlinks for filetest.t
16:40 pugs_svn r21185 | moritz++ | [t] documentation updates:
16:40 pugs_svn r21185 | moritz++ |  * first shot at t/HOWTO
16:40 pugs_svn r21185 | moritz++ |  * updated t/README
16:40 pugs_svn r21185 | moritz++ |  * mentioned Junction oddities in t/deprecated-syntax.pod
16:40 pugs_svn r21185 | moritz++ |  * deleted an empty directory
16:40 pugs_svn r21186 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] fixed broken smartlink, Auzon--
16:41 Auzon thanks moritz_++ :)
16:42 moritz_ any idea why http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/21186 is empty? svn diff shows it correctly
16:42 lambdabot Title: Changeset 21186 - Pugs - Trac
16:43 Auzon It's a whitespace change
16:43 Auzon apparently.
16:43 Auzon All I did was bang on the link until it works
16:44 moritz_ oh yes, and I had the "ignore whitspace changes" box ticked
16:44 Auzon To be fair, I didn't see the change when editing either :P
16:44 moritz_ it could be freakin' unicode non-breaking space
16:44 moritz_ and once you did a copy & paste it worked
16:45 Auzon I had to copy/paste from ack's output, though. My browser didn't copy it the same
16:45 moritz_ (Auzon's browser)--
16:46 Auzon IWBNI whitespace didn't matter when matching
16:47 pugs_svn r21187 | Auzon++ | fixed some POD errors
16:47 moritz_ I think that double quotes causes them to be matched more liberally
16:47 Auzon Interesting
16:48 moritz_ don't know if it actually works ;)
16:48 moritz_ Auzon: thanks for the fixes
16:49 moritz_ Auzon: what do you think of t/HOWTO?
16:49 Auzon I like it :)
16:49 moritz_ it should be enhanced a bit
16:49 Auzon Yeah, I'll see if I can find anything to add
16:49 moritz_ biggest problem is that I don't know how much knowledge from the reader I can assume
16:50 moritz_ I planned to add something about putting related test in blocks to ease fudging
16:50 moritz_ but I didn't have the motivation to explain fudging ;-)
16:50 moritz_ anyway, ISTR that pmichaud wanted to blog about something similar, maybe it's a start for him
16:51 Auzon Did you read his post about how the test suite improved significantly recently? We got some nice press :)
16:53 moritz_ aye, I did ;)
16:53 Auzon I think what he talked about was a followup to that post
16:53 moritz_ if you look at that progress graph, the yellow curve is our doing
16:53 moritz_ (mostly)
16:54 moritz_ the green one is combined effort of testers and implementors
16:57 masak moritz_++ Auzon++
16:59 meppl joined #perl6
16:59 moritz_ @karma Auzon
16:59 lambdabot Auzon has a karma of 13
16:59 moritz_ lambdabot: you lost
16:59 moritz_ perlbot: karma Auzon
16:59 perlbot Karma for Auzon: 106
16:59 moritz_ much better
17:00 moritz_ http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2008-05-22#i_306074
17:00 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2008-05-22
17:01 Auzon Yeah, I remember that ;)
17:05 moritz_ Auzon: do you happen to have German ancestors? your name sounds a bit like it ;)
17:06 Auzon Yep, I do
17:06 Auzon I don't know if I still have close relatives in Germany, but I do have some in England.
17:07 Auzon (where close is roughly 4 steps)
17:07 moritz_ ;)
17:09 moritz_ 4 steps isn't all that much, considering that cousins are already 3 steps away
17:09 Auzon ok, well, maybe <10 steps then :P
17:09 masak Juerd recently taught me the necessity of decode/encode of all string data that crosses the I/O barrier of a program. what's the lay of the land in Perl 6 re the same thing? do we still decode/encode?
17:10 moritz_ masak: Str is a decoded string
17:10 masak which in practice means...?
17:11 moritz_ masak: I think that the IO stuff isn't fully specced, but the language design very strongly encourage the usage of Str over Buf
17:11 moritz_ masak: so you'll probably add an encoding information on open()
17:11 masak as in Perl 5, then
17:12 moritz_ in this respect yes
17:12 moritz_ but what's different is that you have different data types for text strings (Str) and byte strings (Buf)
17:12 moritz_ which means that if you write a sub foo(Str $x), you force everybody who uses that to decode their strings
17:13 masak I'm not sure I see how that translates to real code
17:13 masak and what if I don't give my variable a type, what then?
17:14 moritz_ neither am I
17:14 moritz_ masak: oh, you will. When you want to match a string against a regex, you'll want it to be a Str
17:15 Juerd moritz_: Well, using Str over Buf because it's recommonded is a stupid idea. Using it because it matches what you're doing is much better.
17:15 masak would a literal "like this" be a Str?
17:15 moritz_ masak: string literals are Str
17:15 Juerd And where you have I/O, you have bytes, thus Bufs.
17:15 Juerd And some conversion (that is: decoding/encoding) is necessary.
17:16 Juerd The nice thing here is that Buf know their encoding
17:16 masak what does my Bufs = "encode me"; do re encoding?
17:16 masak oops, my Buf $buf = "encode me";
17:17 Juerd masak: Use the default encoding, which'll probably be either something that fails on everything, or ISO-8859-1, or UTF-8
17:17 masak what decides? how would I know?
17:17 Juerd masak: Larry does
17:17 masak :)
17:17 moritz_ Juerd: so it's not locale dependent?
17:17 Juerd I'm hoping for "something that fails on everything".
17:17 Juerd moritz_: Locale dependent would be good only for STDIO.
17:18 Juerd moritz_: And there I wish that locales are only used when explicitly requested.
17:18 Juerd It doesn't make sense all of the time.
17:19 Juerd For example, if stdin is a file, it makes no sense to make it locale dependent -- the file might be encoded with whatever the locale was when the file was written, but that information is *lost*, so it's better to specify a single encoding than to rely on heuristics.
17:19 Juerd "Assume that it hasn't changed" is stupid. If you assume that things never change, you wouldn't need to store things in a file :)
17:20 moritz_ you do store pi in a file, although it'll never change ;)
17:22 smtms you never know. someone might discover that pi is dependent on speed just like mass is
17:22 masak pi is dependent on local curvature :)
17:23 moritz_ smtms: no. That's the difference between math and physics. ;-)
17:24 moritz_ masak: not pi, only the ratio between circle circumfence and diameter
17:24 smtms btw, you are not storing pi in a file, but just a finite approximation of it
17:24 masak moritz_: good point
17:25 masak but then you need a new name for that ratio. lots of people call it 'pi'
17:26 Juerd moritz_: I wonder though how localedependent pi is ;)
17:27 Juerd Does it get reset back to 22/7 when you set it to ancient greek? :)
17:29 moritz_ not pi again.. they'll just parameterize the ratio depending on the curvature
17:37 ruoso hmpf.... pmurias already gone away...
17:46 moritz_ ruoso: but he fixed something in the mean time
17:46 ruoso hmm... I'll take a look... thanks
17:47 moritz_ 'sh brew' now works (if you have perl 5.10.0 installed and as the default 'perl' in $PATH)
17:50 ruoso cool
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18:51 Auzon moritz_: I'm working on moving operators/arith.t into the spec, but it's a pain to fudge since it uses its own testing routines. Do you have any suggestions?
18:51 moritz_ Auzon: first move it
18:52 moritz_ Auzon: when you have done the move, I'll take a look
18:52 Auzon OK
18:53 pmurias joined #perl6
18:54 pmurias ruoso: i'm back again ;)
18:54 ruoso cool
18:54 ruoso would you like to test replacing the sm0p parser by yours?
18:55 pmurias tried it already
18:55 pmurias my parsers has nasty bugs with the code emitting
18:55 Auzon moritz_: done
18:55 Auzon or should be in a second
18:56 pmurias nasty bugs means stringing array refs
18:57 moritz_ At revision 21187.
18:57 Auzon Yeah, svn-- is hanging
18:58 Auzon ok, done
18:58 pugs_svn r21188 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] staging commit for fudging arith.t
18:58 pmurias ruoso: KP6sm0p.p6 is the proper thing to use?
18:59 ruoso yes
19:00 pmurias i'll copy that over and try to make it work
19:00 ruoso take a look at sm0p.pl in the parent directory
19:00 ruoso it calls the compiled one
19:00 ruoso KP6sm0p.pl
19:01 ruoso but you could change sm0p.pl to call the appropriate script
19:03 moritz_ Auzon: I'm now trying to fudge it. Part of the trick is to use #?DOES for the tryeq and tryok subs
19:06 Auzon So what does DOES do?
19:07 pmurias joined #perl6
19:07 moritz_ it says "this sub or block is equivalent to $x tests"
19:07 moritz_ #?DOES $x at least
19:08 moritz_ so it basically register it as a known test function
19:08 Auzon cool
19:08 Auzon fudge++
19:09 moritz_ I'm now at 175/190 tests (run or skipped)
19:11 pugs_svn r21189 | moritz++ | [spec] started to fudge artih.t - got rid of all compilation and run time
19:11 pugs_svn r21189 | moritz++ | errors, doesn't PASS yet
19:12 moritz_ Auzon: we can remove tryok, because todo is now handled differently
19:14 moritz_ Auzon: same with tryeq, I think - it's just a fancy "is" that's not needed anymore
19:15 vixey joined #Perl6
19:16 Auzon tryeq uses ==, and is uses eq for comparisons. Does that matter?
19:16 moritz_ good point
19:16 moritz_ I'll keep tryeq for a moment
19:16 moritz_ s/a/the/
19:17 Auzon But we should be able to replace tryeq with one line or so.
19:18 moritz_ aye
19:19 Auzon Are you still working on it, or can I take over?
19:19 moritz_ wait a second, I'll make a commit
19:19 Auzon ok
19:19 moritz_ then you can take over
19:19 Auzon Great :)
19:20 pugs_svn r21190 | moritz++ | [spec] arith.t more fudging, not quite there yet
19:20 moritz_ Auzon: it's yours ;-)
19:23 moritz_ and it's really ugly to fudge, because it doesn't have too many test description, so it's hard to find the failing tests in the source file
19:23 Auzon yep
19:24 moritz_ but you aked for it ;)
19:25 Auzon I can use the same way I use to check for what line is causing a parsefail
19:25 moritz_ well, parsefail gives you a line number immediately ;)
19:25 moritz_ that's why I love them
19:25 Auzon Not the one I had yesterday :-/
19:26 Auzon er, Tuesday
19:29 cj joined #perl6
19:30 cj TimToady: so, by "There's more than one way to do it" do you mean "We just hacked something together, and it may work in mysterious ways"?
19:30 PerlJam cj: that's an odd interpretation.
19:32 moritz_ perl has been remarkably successful with its Timtowtdi approach, and not all of it seems like "hacked something together" ;-)
19:35 cj PerlJam: heh.  blame the guy sitting next to me :)
19:35 cj PerlJam: hey, go update this... maybe reify what I've said...
19:37 Auzon moritz_: I found a way to get a bit of a hint on what line to look at by having tryeq report the $lhs and $rhs :)
19:45 pmurias TimToady: a|b is broken in gimme5
19:47 moritz_ pmurias: how so? it's parsed as inifx:<|>(a, b) it seems
19:48 Auzon heh. Rakudo does poorly on these corner cases. 121 skip, 69 pass.
19:48 pmurias token foo {a|b}
19:48 moritz_ pmurias: ah, I thought you meant 'a|b' as input
19:48 pmurias return 1 instead of proper match objects
19:48 iblechbot joined #perl6
19:48 moritz_ Auzon: mostly it doesn't do Inf and NaN yet
19:49 Auzon The UV/IV tests hurt too
19:49 moritz_ aye. How lucky sombody wrote them already ;-)
19:49 cj PerlJam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Levin#.23LinPeople_an_The_Linux_I​nternet_Support_Co-Operative
19:50 pugs_svn r21191 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] fudged arith.t for Rakudo
19:50 Auzon moritz_: You can add this file to the spectest_regression list now :)
19:51 moritz_ Auzon: running spectest_regression now. If it passes here, I'll commit it
19:52 Auzon great :)
19:53 Auzon only ~11000 tests left outside of spec/ ;)
19:53 moritz_ my crappy ISP disconnects me every ~30s
19:56 Chillance joined #perl6
19:57 moritz_ 4 TODO passed
19:57 Auzon Cool :)
19:59 pugs_svn r21192 | moritz++ | [spec] use is_approx() instead of tryeq_sloppy for two tests, and remove their
19:59 pugs_svn r21192 | moritz++ | TODO marking
19:59 * moritz_ runs the tests again, and gets some food in the mean time
20:05 pugs_svn r21193 | pmurias++ | [sm0p] initial version of the new grammar
20:08 pugs_svn r21194 | pmurias++ | [smop] added a SM0P_FASTER env var to used the new parser
20:08 ruoso pmurias++
20:09 pmurias i'm now getting autotools to check if the new parser actually works
20:09 Jedai joined #perl6
20:10 ruoso :)
20:11 pmurias ruoso: have you tried it yourself
20:12 ruoso not yet...
20:12 ruoso still getting the dependencies
20:13 pmurias fixing bugs...
20:18 pmurias other people want to use the internet&
20:19 rakudo_svn r29035 | moritz++ | [rakudo] added S03-operators/arith.t to spectest_regression. Auzon++
20:21 lambdabot joined #perl6
20:22 pugs_svn r21195 | moritz++ | [spec] un-TODO two more tests in arith.t
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20:51 pugs_svn r21196 | moritz++ | [t] removed duplicate test
20:51 pugs_svn r21197 | moritz++ | [spec] while.t: cleaned up two useless tests
20:55 pugs_svn r21198 | moritz++ | [spec] moved statements/repeat.t to spec/, cleaned up a test
20:55 pugs_svn r21199 | moritz++ | [util/perl6.vim] 'repeat'  is a keyword like 'while'
21:00 pugs_svn r21200 | moritz++ | [spec] fudged repeat.t
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21:08 rakudo_svn r29037 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add S04-statements/repeat.t to spectest_regression
21:23 pugs_svn r21201 | ruoso++ | [smop] still more work on p6opaque, few bugs fixed, some slime bugs still.
21:24 * moritz_ likes ruoso++'s names very much
21:25 moritz_ smop, s1p, slime ...
21:25 ruoso heh... i just hope slime communicates how lame the interpreter is ;)
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22:51 TimToady @tell pmurias you can use [a|b] as a workaround until I have svn access again
22:51 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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22:58 ruoso geez... p6opaque have yet another sm0p block... it should be taking ~ 2 or 3 minutes to parse...
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