Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-07-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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03:41 pugs_svn r21245 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] perl.t is fudged for Rakudo. perl2.t is gone.
03:41 Auzon wow, that was fast of pugs_svn
03:42 Auzon pmichaud or someone else:  t/spec/S02-names_and_variables/perl.t should be ready for spectest_regression.
03:42 Auzon I noticed a few other files weren't working, so I'm investigating
03:44 Auzon of course, it might just be me.
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03:49 s1n Auzon: i've been working on something that has been bugging me but i think i'm getting confused. is the test suite _only_ the t/spec folder?
03:50 Auzon Kind of.
03:50 Auzon t/spec is the test suite that has been reviewed semi-recently and organized somewhat by synopsis.
03:50 Auzon Rakudo's spectest_regression pulls a handful of tests from t/spec.
03:51 s1n yeah, the spectest_regression.dat file has the list
03:51 s1n is the harness script a part of the pugs repo or parrot?
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03:51 Auzon The parts of t/ that aren't in t/spec is about twice the size of t/spec, and some of it is Pugs specific. Most of it just isn't reorganized/rechecked yet
03:52 Auzon The harness is a part of the Makefile for each project
03:52 s1n well, the actual file, i can't remember which repo it's in
03:52 s1n i've got a change to make to it, if it's in pugs, then i'll just do it
03:54 Auzon What are you wanting to change?
03:54 s1n well, i'm still working on the actual fix
04:00 s1n uh so is it in the pugs repo or not?
04:00 Auzon Depends what "it" is :)
04:00 s1n t/harness
04:00 Auzon That's in parrot
04:00 s1n okay
04:00 Auzon specifically, languages/perl6/t/
04:01 s1n do they still prefer ml patches?
04:01 s1n yes
04:01 Auzon I think so
04:02 s1n alright, thanks
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04:41 s1n Auzon: have you guys been moving a bunch of the tests into spec?
04:41 s1n Files=90, Tests=2164, 510 wallclock secs
04:42 Auzon Yes.
04:42 Auzon http://www.pmichaud.com/perl6/rakudo-tests-2008-07-05.png
04:42 Auzon Look at the previous week
04:42 Auzon I'm guessing that I added ~500 tests to the total
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04:44 Auzon That seems like a lot, but I did add a file with nearly 200 tests last week, another one with 58 tests today, and probably some more that I can't remember
04:44 s1n wow
04:45 Auzon oh, a 64 test file too.
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04:49 s1n well, i'm still trying to get used to the code, i wanted to find some task to start working on
04:50 Auzon s1n: If you are looking for something to do in the test suite, pugs/t/TASKS has quite a few things
04:50 s1n i noticed 3 things: there are tons of things being skipped, there are a handful of todos that are now passing, and it looks like the tests are mostly only testing the things that should work and not the things that shouldnt
04:52 Auzon The things being skipped is a direct result of the fudging
04:52 s1n yes, but are they being worked into not being skipped?
04:52 Auzon A lot of files pass except for just one or two tests. Fudging lets us have the benefit of the tests that do work
04:53 Auzon Yes. Fudged tests are supposed to have an RT issue associated with them somewhere
04:53 Auzon I'm about to send in a few that I spotted earlier
04:54 s1n checkout assign, tons of skips
04:55 s1n well, you guys are working on the test suite way more actively than i, if i could spend a few hours a week working on this, where would you (or anyone you're working with) prefer the help?
04:56 s1n the todo? writing the rt tickets? adding more tests?
04:56 Auzon TASKS mainly refers to writing new tests. That's helpful, but I find it time consuming since you have to hunt out something that isn't well-tested
04:57 Auzon One of the most rewarding things, I find, is reorganizing and fudging the tests so that Rakudo will run them. Have you seen the daily graphs of that?
04:57 s1n yes i have
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04:58 s1n i would rather help work towards a common goal. what you're working on has to be done so we can get on to fixing the skips and adding the missing tests
04:58 s1n so wherever my help is needed most. i just want to help move things along
04:59 Auzon According to my schedule, I'll be hunting for tests in S09 this next week...
05:00 s1n okay, i'm not picky about the work i do, i find moving perl6 along as rewarding and that takes all kinds of work
05:00 Auzon I dunno. I guess I'd look for reasons on what causes tests to be skipped
05:01 s1n okay, i'll start looking into that. should i file rt BUGs if i figure it out?
05:02 Auzon Definitely, if there isn't a bug already.
05:02 s1n reference the rt ticket number in the skipped comment?
05:02 Auzon Yep.
05:02 s1n any area you recommend to start in?
05:04 Auzon I'm not sure, honestly.
05:04 s1n okay, well, i'll try to start small
05:04 Auzon Part of the problem is that over half of the tests are still not in t/spec.
05:04 Auzon S29 might be a decent place
05:04 s1n im going to bed for tonight, thanks for the tip, night
05:04 Auzon OK, see you next time :)
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07:26 rakudo_svn r29116 | moritz++ | [rakudo] t/harness warns on no-existiing test files.
07:26 rakudo_svn r29116 | moritz++ | Patch curtesy of Jason Switzer <jswitzer@gmail.com>, j1s++
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07:51 rakudo_svn r29117 | moritz++ | [rakudo] added .perl tests to spectest_regression, Auzon++
07:56 pugs_svn r21246 | moritz++ | [spec] more array.t tweaks
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08:19 rakudo_svn r29118 | moritz++ | [rakudo] one more test file for spectest_regression
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10:04 pmurias re
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10:49 pmurias OT: what OpenGL book would people here recommend?
10:50 icwiener RedBook or SuperBible... Both seem pretty complete.
10:51 icwiener Or did you mean Perl-related?
10:51 pmurias icwiener: which one do you prefere?
10:52 icwiener pmurias: I think the SuperBible.
10:52 pmurias icwiener: is there a Perl-related one?
10:53 icwiener I do not know. :)
10:54 pmurias both the RedBook and SuperBible have example in c?
10:54 icwiener Yes
10:54 rakudo_svn r29121 | moritz++ | [rakudo] use Test::Diff in autounfudge.pl to avoid non-perl dependencies
10:54 icwiener The SuperBible is C++ as well.
10:54 pmurias icwiener: RedBook is OpenGL(R) Programming Guide: The Official Guide to Learning OpenGL(R), Version 2.1 (6th Edition) (OpenGL) (Paperback)?
10:54 icwiener pmurias: Yes.
10:55 pmurias i'm ok with small quanties of C++ ;)
10:56 pmurias s/i'm ok with/i can tolerate/
10:56 pmurias icwiener: thanks for help
10:57 icwiener hehe
10:57 icwiener no problem.
10:58 pmurias does it make sense to buy them both?
10:59 icwiener Hehe, given you do not care much about money. :)
11:00 icwiener I think one of them does it. I have them both borrowed from the library, so I have them both. :)
11:01 icwiener But as far as I read them it's basically the same. The bible has more background information and gives more examples from what I saw.
11:02 pmurias icwiener: you have a good library
11:02 icwiener pmurias: Actually I convinced them to buy them. :D
11:02 moritz_ ;)
11:03 icwiener It's the university's library so they listen to the students.
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11:23 icwiener pmurias: I just found out that the errata and code samples pages on the web page of the redbook are not updated although the book is out for ober six month now. That's definitely a plus for the bible. :D
11:32 pmurias icwiener: do you read erratas?
11:33 icwiener pmurias: Yes. In my own books (the one I bought myself) I read them first and correct them on the book.
11:35 icwiener *in the book that is. :)
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11:52 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 3; eval 'say $x'
11:52 p6eval rakudo 29121: OUTPUT[Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;panic' pc 156 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:103)␤]
11:52 pmurias rakudo_svn: eval 'say 3'
11:52 pmurias rakudo: eval 'say 3'
11:52 p6eval rakudo 29121: OUTPUT[3␤]
11:53 moritz_ pmurias: it's a problem with accessing variables in outer scopes
11:53 moritz_ pmurias: pmichaud is working on it irrc
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12:03 pmurias rindolf: hi
12:03 rindolf Hi pmurias
12:04 pmurias rindolf: i haven't noticed you elf/smop question yesterday, sorry ;)
12:05 rindolf pmurias: your
12:05 pmurias yes
12:06 pmurias elf is mncharity's perl6 to perl5 (hopefully smop too soon) compiler, and smop is rouso's object oriented runtime
12:07 pmurias they live in v6/smop and misc/elf (misc/elfish/elfX for my fork) in the pugs repo
12:10 pmurias any more questions?
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12:50 pmurias rindolf: if you feel like hacking on either elf/smop, and have any question feel free to ask me, although i'll be of more help with elf
12:53 rindolf pmurias: OK.
12:57 * pmurias shouldn't propably bother people with "if you want to get involved..." style project propaganda
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13:36 rakudo_svn r29123 | moritz++ | [rakudo] reverted r29111 and added a TODO comment, pmichaud++
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13:48 pugs_svn r21247 | moritz++ | [spec] re-fudge S02-names_and_variables.t,
13:48 pugs_svn r21247 | moritz++ | rakudo doesn't escape '{' and '$' in Str.perl
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14:06 pmurias ruoso: ping
14:14 ruoso pmurias, pong
14:22 pmurias ruoso: i'm trying to add basic io to smop, one problematic thing is that methods need a fair amount of boilerplate
14:22 ruoso yeah... and sm0p blocks
14:23 pmurias food&
14:23 rakudo_svn r29124 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 90 files, 1618 passing tests
14:24 pmurias the MESSAGE subs need a lot of boilerplate
14:24 ruoso that's where s1p will help
14:25 pmurias convert the capture to a native one, convert string identifiers to constant ones, raise an exception if there is no such methods
14:25 pmurias ...
14:26 pmurias wouldn't it be better to have the tests in a pure sm0p format instead of mixing sm0p and c?
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14:29 ruoso pmurias, I think s1p is about that
14:30 pmurias one problem with elf, is that it's current parser (STD_red) won't handle everything in src-s1p
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14:32 ruoso it doesn't need to
14:32 pmurias ok
14:32 ruoso they don't need to be based on Object and P6Meta
14:33 ruoso we could even have a q:inline-c { } quasiquote
14:33 ruoso to allow native implementations...
14:35 pmurias something like class Foo {method foo {use C;\n;int a = 3;printf("%d\n",a);}}?
14:35 ruoso yeah...
14:35 ruoso but I would arque using the quasiquote syntax
14:36 pmurias quasiquotes return c ast to you
14:37 pmurias syntax is not that important for now ;)
14:38 pmurias the thing that bothers me is using the c namespace for storing smop objects
14:39 pmurias is that only used because we don't have smop namespaces yet?
14:42 pmurias food for real&
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14:57 pmurias ruoso: 12_p6opaque hangs, is it expected?
14:57 ruoso nope
14:57 ruoso run it with valgrind...
14:57 ruoso are you sure you're up-to-date/
14:57 ruoso ?
14:58 pmurias i svn up'ed
14:58 ruoso (misc/sm0p has been changed also)
14:58 ruoso you need to re-brew
14:59 pmurias should i rename brew to compile?
15:00 moritz_ Q: do you usually brew or compile pixies? A: you roast them ;-)
15:01 pmurias :)
15:04 pmurias ruoso: a clean checkout works
15:04 ruoso there have been some bugfixes in misc/sm0p
15:05 pmurias make clean dosn't remove generated .c files
15:05 ruoso that's a boring thing I simply doesn't understand
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15:13 pmurias i could make misc/sm0p/sm0p.pm a dependency of each file generated from .sm0p
15:15 pmurias ruoso: as i understand we need s1p ASAP?
15:15 ruoso pmurias, maybe even move misc/sm0p inside smop
15:16 ruoso pmurias, yes... s1p is really close to be a blocker...
15:16 ruoso as soon as I finish writing the REPR API in p6opaque it will be a blocker...
15:18 pmurias i have an idea, how to do it, the part i'm unsure about is if the ast should be turned into sm0p nodes(via a workaround untill bootstrap) or sm0p code
15:19 pmurias the big picture would be source->AST->simplified AST->(unsure)
15:20 pmurias source->AST is already done in elf
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15:29 pmurias native strings aren't implemented yet :(
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15:40 pugs_svn r21248 | pmurias++ | [smop] start of an io implementation, nothing works properly yet, don't know how to get rid of the memory leak
15:43 pmichaud is there a good way to get an estimate of the total number of tests in t/spec ?
15:44 [particle]1 better than adding digits after 'plan '?
15:44 moritz_ pmichaud: didn't we discuss that the other day? ack '^plan.*?\d+' + sum over all numbers
15:44 pmichaud okay, I'll go for that then.
15:44 pmichaud I didn't think of that conversation in the context of all spectests -- I was only thinking spectest_regression at the time.
15:44 [particle] :)
15:45 pmichaud I'm thinking I want to chart the size of the spectest suite, as well as spectest_regression
15:45 [particle] i'm pretty sure i provided my line here, if you want to check the logs
15:45 [particle] pmichaud++ that'd be great to see
15:45 * moritz_ doubts the usefulnes, at least for the charts
15:46 moritz_ http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2008-07-01#i_374835
15:46 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2008-07-01
15:46 pmichaud it's useful because it gives us an idea of the overall progress of spectest conversion, as opposed to just those that make it into spectest_regression
15:47 moritz_ ok, good point
15:47 moritz_ 5272
15:48 pmichaud another way of thinking of it is that Rakudo is currently skipping approximately 3600 tests
15:48 moritz_ d'oh, the search in the IRC logs gives context from wrong channels sometimes
15:48 pmichaud it's just that some "skips" are because we didn't include the test file into spectest_regression :-)
15:49 pmichaud I'll probably add it as a column to spectest-progress.csv
15:50 moritz_ please add it at the end, so that existing tools won't be confused ;)
15:50 pmichaud okay.  :-)
15:50 pmichaud I thought it'd be more fun to confuse the existing tools :-)
15:51 moritz_ heh, you didn't write those tools ;-)
15:51 pmichaud hey, if @Larry gets to change the spec (causing me to have to rewrite my code), then when do I get to change something that makes others do work?!?  ;-) :-)
15:52 moritz_ pmichaud: @Larry.push('pmichaud') might be acceptable ;-)
15:52 pmichaud oh, I suppose I've made a few spec suggestions that have caused others to have to change things, now that you mention it.  :-)
15:52 pmichaud t/spec/S16-io/say.t doesn't use  "plan"   -- should it?
15:53 moritz_ no
15:53 moritz_ because it doesn't use Test.pm at all
15:54 moritz_ use Test.pm; plan 5; say 'ok 1 - ...'; -> "you planned 5 tests, but only ran 0"
15:54 pmichaud right.
15:54 pmichaud okay.  It's just that the total ends up being off by 5 all the time :-)
15:55 moritz_ that's 0.1% error only
15:55 moritz_ as a physicist I have to add that the errors intrisic to our counting method are much larger ;-)
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16:22 ruoso @tell pmurias if you have literal strings, you can always use the constant identifier, since that string will be available for the end of the execution... there isn't a String API very well defined yet...
16:22 lambdabot Consider it noted.
16:34 pugs_svn r21249 | moritz++ | [spec] simple tests for named parameters
16:51 pugs_svn r21250 | moritz++ | [spec] more tests for named parameters, and fudged them for rakudo
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17:00 pugs_svn r21251 | moritz++ | [t] more TODO
17:01 rakudo_svn r29128 | moritz++ | [rakudo] one more test file for spectest_regression, +2 pass +1 skip
17:03 japhb @tell pmurias re: OpenGL books, the 4th Ed. Superbible is pretty decent, but I certainly think the Red Book is necessary too -- both are necessarily incomplete (just as a matter of limited page count), and they cover OpenGL from different angles.  For example, the Superbible tries to give the reader a taste of more different things, while the red book tries to be more precise about what it does cover.
17:03 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:07 japhb @tell pmurias also, after you've gotten through those, you will probably need to pick up the Orange Book (OpenGL Shading Language, Second Edition).  One uber-annoying thing about the Orange Book, however, is that the author is from 3Dlabs (creators of GLSL), and he unashamedly requires features in his examples that only 3Dlabs supports, and no other vendor.  After that, you're in GPU Gems territory (1-3 in that series are out so far)
17:07 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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17:22 * moritz_ is (again) amazed at the variety of skills that the various #perl6 hackers have
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18:59 pmurias japhb: thanks
18:59 lambdabot pmurias: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:05 japhb pmurias: you're welcome!
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20:28 * Auzon is amused that 'plan Inf' prints '1..' instead of '1..Inf' or crashing
20:29 moritz_ Auzon: it's just passed around as an Int, and rakudo probably thinks it's undef or something
20:30 Auzon If you ever see 'plan Inf' in a committed test, it's probably me forgetting the to add the number at the end :)
20:30 moritz_ ;)
20:32 Auzon S09 says "An implementation of Perl is not required to support 64-bit integer types or 128-bit floating-point types unless the underlying architecture supports them". Is there any way to determine if they should be supported?
20:32 [particle] you need to ask runtime-specific questions of perl in order to answer that
20:34 [particle] so, it's worth noting in a comment, at least
20:34 moritz_ and I don't think that's specced yet
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20:35 [particle] you may be able to get at it via $?RUNTIME or 'defined %?RUNTIME<int64>' or somesuch
20:35 [particle] it's not well specced, if at all
20:35 Auzon I can just see if the types are supported at all for now
20:35 Auzon and just skip at runtime if not.
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21:05 pmurias shouldn't int64 be faked?
21:05 pmurias if it's not supported
21:06 moritz_ pmurias: why would you fake low-level types?
21:06 moritz_ pmurias: if you don't care about low-level representation, you just use Int
21:06 moritz_ pmurias: and if you care, you don't want to be fooled
21:12 pmurias moritz_: if you port your code it's better to be fooled then to receive an exception
21:13 moritz_ pmurias: if you care about portability you won't use low level types
21:15 pmurias moritz_: int32 is portable
21:17 Auzon Int isn't portable, though, I don't think
21:18 Auzon and my earlier question was in the context of testing the availability and range of those types
21:19 moritz_ isn't Int transparently upgraded to bigint?
21:19 Auzon oh
21:19 Auzon Yes, it is. sprintf gave me problems, not Int
21:19 pmurias moritz_: int64 is faster than a bigint even on 32bit architectures
21:23 moritz_ ok, I wasn't very clear. The implementation is free to chose the most efficient type for Int, and transparently upgrade and downgrade the low level types
21:24 moritz_ so if a variable is an Int, and it's internall int32, and it overflows, it can transparently upgrade to int64 if available, and bigint otherwise
21:24 Auzon Does that mean that "my int1 $foo = 12" is valid?
21:24 Auzon or just the Int objects?
21:25 moritz_ Auzon: int1 won't upgrade, only Int does
21:25 Auzon ok, great :)
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21:47 pugs_svn r21252 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] test for int\d+ and uint\d+ low level types for S09. (added 49 tests)
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21:53 * Auzon can't count
21:53 Auzon it's actually 98 tests
21:54 moritz_ a clean factor of 2 ;-)
21:54 Auzon yep
21:54 Auzon I forgot to count both int and uint in my earlier count
21:54 Auzon There's only actually 7 tests, just looped for 14 data types
21:54 moritz_ sadly no implemention does low level types yet (iirc)
21:55 Auzon KP6 and Pugs accept them but don't constrain them
21:55 moritz_ I think they just alias them to Int
21:55 moritz_ which gets some tests pass, but that's hardly what low level types are about ;)
21:56 Auzon Right
21:56 Auzon The ones I wrote specifically test the boundary tests to make sure that it's correct
21:56 moritz_ Auzon++
21:57 moritz_ Auzon: which part of the specs was must fun to test, so far?
21:57 Auzon Besides fudging, the objects
21:58 moritz_ ok
21:58 moritz_ getting to a point where a file can be included in spectest_regression is quite satisfactory ;)
22:06 [particle] i wish getting it into spectest was as much fun :(
22:08 moritz_ aye
22:08 rakudo_svn r29129 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Remove obsolete $?PERL6SCALAR from src/parser/actions.pm
22:17 pugs_svn r21253 | moritz++ | [t] fixed syntax in builitns/my.t
22:20 rakudo_svn r29130 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Parameter initializations belong in the params node of
22:20 rakudo_svn r29130 | pmichaud++ | a block (not in the mainline).
22:21 moritz_ rakudo: say if 1 { 1 }
22:21 p6eval rakudo 29129: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "{ 1 }"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
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22:27 pugs_svn r21254 | moritz++ | [t] updated 'my' tests
22:29 pugs_svn r21255 | moritz++ | [t] more updates to t/var/my.t
22:31 moritz_ rakudo: $x; my $x; say 1
22:31 p6eval rakudo 29130: OUTPUT[1␤]
22:37 pugs_svn r21256 | moritz++ | [spec] added my.t in spec/, which currently contains tests borrowed
22:37 pugs_svn r21256 | moritz++ | t/var/my.t. TODO: review and and merge the rest of that file, plus
22:37 pugs_svn r21256 | moritz++ | blocks/my.t into the one in spec/
22:37 pugs_svn r21257 | moritz++ | [t] remove duplicate tests
22:38 pugs_svn r21258 | moritz++ | [spec] fudged my.t
22:44 pugs_svn r21259 | moritz++ | [spec] more my.t tests moved
22:44 pugs_svn r21260 | moritz++ | [t] removed duplicate my.t tests
22:48 Alias_ joined #perl6
22:57 meppl good night
22:57 pugs_svn r21261 | moritz++ | [spec] moved some tests from builtins/my.t to spec/
22:57 pugs_svn r21262 | moritz++ | [t] removed duplicate tests
23:01 rakudo_svn r29131 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add my.t to spectest_regression, +15 fail, +3 todo, +12 skip
23:04 moritz_ time for bed &
23:41 Coleoid joined #perl6
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23:48 bacek_ joined #perl6
23:49 ujwalic_ joined #perl6

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