Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-07-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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02:58 TimToady @tell pmurias a mutable object must specify its WHICH identity in terms of an immutable value type; immutable value types are their own identity and are required to support consistent canonicalization for eqv etc.; and canonicalization is hashable without knowledge of type, so no explicit .hash required
02:58 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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03:06 TimToady @tell pmurias, IOW, hashes are always keyed on canonicalized .WHICH, though the particular form of canonicalization may depend on the hash key's declared type
03:06 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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07:40 rindolf Hi all.
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09:38 rakudo_svn r29330 | bernhard++ | [Rakudo] Add or update some Copyright or SVN-Id lines
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11:43 pmurias ruoso: hi
11:43 lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:43 ruoso hi pmurias
11:45 pmurias should i just svn remove the old sm0p implementation when i move in the new one?
11:46 ruoso yeah... I think that's ok
11:47 pmurias i wonder if i haven't spent enought time on sm0p, that i could have written a basic perl6->slime backend ;)
11:47 ruoso pmurias, and you could even add the brew as a makefile target, so it would be called automatically when the sm0p.pm source changes
11:49 ruoso pmurias, you think you can write a simple "variable" support that would generate all the nodes for the equivalent calls?
11:49 ruoso like...
11:50 ruoso $a = regular_sm0p_node;
11:50 ruoso $a.foo();
11:50 ruoso $something.method($a)
11:50 pmurias yes, but i think i shouldn't
11:51 ruoso hmm... you're probably right
11:51 pmurias growing sm0p into perl6 doesn't seem a good idea
11:54 pmurias i think i'll finish labels, and likely add nested frames and leave it at that
11:57 pmurias but we can start work on s1p soon ;)
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12:06 pugs_svn r21309 | fglock++ | minor fix in test output
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12:21 pugs_svn r21310 | pmurias++ | [smop] sm0p has labels now (see test file), forward labels are not supported yet, as they would require hackery
12:26 pmurias ruoso: you can now use labels ;)
12:51 pmurias ruoso: would a move_capturize_with_responder be a good idea?
13:06 pmurias ruoso: i can delete old_src?
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13:35 rindolf Hi all.
13:35 rindolf Can anyone edit http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?comics# ?
13:35 lambdabot Title: Comics / Perl 5 Wiki
13:36 rindolf Oh wait! NoScript.
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13:46 pmurias rindolf: you are banned from the wiki too? ;)
13:47 rindolf pmurias: no, I'm not.
13:47 rindolf pmurias: just had the NoScript extension on.
13:47 rindolf pmurias: and without JavaScript it didn't work at all.
13:47 rindolf I had to whitelist perlfoundation.org
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14:01 pmurias rindolf: why do you have NoScript?
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14:02 rindolf pmurias: well, I installed it because a few hours after every reboot, I cannot access Google properly.
14:03 rindolf pmurias: and so the Google Ads stall my homepage and other sites.
14:04 pmurias strange
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16:53 rhett hey, what's new in perl 6?
16:55 pmurias rhett: compared to perl 5?
16:56 rhett oh, sorry, I mean, what's new in the perl 6 world?
16:56 rhett is rakudo going to be fast?
16:57 pmurias it should (for a vm)
16:57 rhett are people working on a fast c implementation of perl 6?
16:58 pbuetow the vm of perl 6 is in c
16:58 rhett so, is rakudo the last thing that needs to be done?
16:59 pbuetow i guess they will improve the vm and perl 6 itself in parallel
16:59 rhett I'm confused, I guess I just want to know when perl 6 can start to replace perl 5
16:59 pbuetow it ll be at christmas :)
16:59 pbuetow (we dont know which christmas)
16:59 rhett well, I mean what needs to be done?
17:00 rhett like, if I just wrote a c version of pugs, would that work?;
17:00 pbuetow you can read the news at rakudo.org and follow the development or help
17:01 pmurias rhett: parrot is not finished yet
17:01 pbuetow hmm, this will be yet another implementation, besides of pugs and rakudo and probably some more
17:02 pmurias there's elf, and the undeveloped kp6
17:03 spinclad smop is a c substrate for an implementation
17:03 pugs_svn r21311 | fglock++ | [v6.pm] fixed Makefile.PL
17:04 pmurias smop will be likely mostly p6
17:04 spinclad rhett: perl 6 has already started to replace perl 5: kp6 and rakudo use perl 6 for their implementation
17:05 pmurias rhett: perl6 will replace perl5 sooner if you help, you know ;)
17:06 rhett yeah, i'm trying to see where I could fit in
17:06 pmurias rhett: what are you happy coding in?
17:06 rhett whatever
17:06 spinclad haskell?
17:06 pmurias common lisp? ;)
17:07 rhett sure, whatever
17:07 spinclad oo, we have a vict^Wvolunteer!  pugs needs a revival...
17:08 pmurias rhett: the things i'm involved are elf and smop, you could help with them
17:08 spinclad elf, STD, kp6, ...
17:09 spinclad in particular building a bridge between elf and smop
17:09 pmurias or a bridge between elf and STD
17:10 pmurias it lives under misc/pixie
17:10 * rhett reads about what the heck elf and smop are
17:10 davidm123 the download link on http://www.pugscode.org/ is broken (as is the try pugs now link)
17:10 lambdabot Title: Pugs - pugscode
17:11 pmurias rhett: what are you reading?
17:11 rhett last time I checked in, people said, well, perl 6 is done as pugs in haskell, it's just slow.  So, I assumed that all that needs to be done is a fast implementation in c
17:11 rhett http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop
17:11 lambdabot Title: SMOP / Perl 6
17:13 spinclad yes, that's good for smop
17:14 pmurias i should update the sm0p page
17:14 rhett i guess I don't understand.  If there are specs for the perl 6 language, why it doesn't just get coded up in c
17:15 pmurias the parsing part is hard to do in c
17:15 rhett and just call it perl6, instead of smop/elf/hoogieboogie
17:16 pmurias calling your implementation perl6 is claiming it's more offical than the others
17:17 rhett i don't see a problem with that, as long as it's free
17:17 pmurias two different implementation can't be both called perl6
17:18 rhett oh, so because larry wrote perl5, his can be officially perl5, but there can't be an official perl6, since the community writes it?
17:18 rhett and no one is better than anyone else?
17:19 TimToady nobody else was crazy enough to reimplement perl5
17:19 TimToady we expect a lot of people to be that crazy about perl6  :)
17:20 pmurias pypy and jython are called pypy and jython not python an python
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17:21 pugs_svn r21312 | fglock++ | [v6.pm] fixed Test.pm compilation
17:22 pmurias rhett: it's mostly an issue of there being multiple incomplete and vastly different perl6 implemenations, and nobody wan't to be unkind enough to claim the name
17:23 rhett yeah, it would be nice if the community could agree on something, I guess
17:25 pmurias the compiler to be agreed upon would need to be powerfull enough to fit everyones needs
17:25 TimToady the current situation *is* what the community agreed on  :)
17:26 pmurias walk&
17:34 pugs_svn r21313 | fglock++ | updated MANIFEST
17:47 spinclad community policy this time around is that Perl 6 is the spec and perl6 is any implementation that implements it
17:51 spinclad ( a corollary of TIMTOWTDI, i venture )
17:51 speckbot r14562 | larry++ | [S04] small clarification to whether named subs are really closures
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19:12 pugs_svn r21314 | pmurias++ | [smop] deleted the old sm0p compiler
19:14 pmurias @tell ruoso why have you put #\n in p6opaque.c?
19:14 lambdabot Consider it noted.
19:16 pmurias @teel ruoso p6opaque.h is missing (svn add it)
19:16 lambdabot Consider it noted.
19:18 pmurias does @teel work too?
19:20 pugs_svn r21315 | pmurias++ | [smop] two warnings about unkown methods
19:21 spinclad does @teal send a color?
19:24 pugs_svn r21316 | pmurias++ | [smop] reverted 21307 and 21306 to make smop compile again :(
19:24 pugs_svn r21316 | pmurias++ | hopefull the can be reapplied soon :)
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20:05 pugs_svn r21317 | pmurias++ | [sm0p] added a general sm0p test
20:05 pmurias @tell ruoso p6opaque.h is missing
20:05 lambdabot Consider it noted.
20:07 pmurias @tell ruoso: could you add a test for copy to 17_sm0p.sm0p please i can't get it to work somehow
20:07 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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20:34 allbery_b I don't think that colon will do what you hope
20:34 allbery_b but since the target's here...
20:35 allbery_b <pmurias> @tell ruoso: could you add a test for copy to 17_sm0p.sm0p please i can't get it to work somehow
20:35 ruoso Hi all!
20:35 lambdabot ruoso: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:36 ruoso pmurias, sorry about that... I'm adding p6opaque.h now
20:36 pmurias ruoso: rehi
20:37 pugs_svn r21318 | ruoso++ | [smop] ruoso-- forgot to add p6opaque.h
20:37 ruoso pmurias, I didn't mean to commit the additional '#' in the sm0p blocks..
20:37 ruoso it was just me checking if I was not trying to use the results of a node twice
20:39 pmurias ruoso: would it be good idea to have a $SMOP__SLIME__CurrentFrame.call(identifier,SMOP__SLIME__Capturize.new(...)) ?
20:40 pmurias ruoso: should i remerge 21307 and 21306 now?
20:41 ruoso pmurias, please...
20:43 pmurias i get errors in p6opaque
20:44 pmurias 16 and 14, is it expected?
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20:46 pmurias ruoso: add p6opaque_methods.sm0p too, please
20:46 ruoso ruoso--
20:46 pugs_svn r21319 | ruoso++ | [smop] ruoso-- forgot to add p6opaque_methods.sm0p
20:47 pmurias use svn status ;)
20:47 ruoso pmurias, I need to define a good .svn_ignore
20:47 pugs_svn r21320 | pmurias++ | reverted the reversion
20:50 pmurias ruoso: do you think $SMOP__SLIME__CurrentFrame.call would be a good idea?
20:51 ruoso pmurias, yes... I do... you just need to add the responder in that call
20:51 ruoso you need the responder, the identifier and the capture
20:52 pmurias i meant to take the responder from captures invocant
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20:52 ruoso pmurias, hmm.. that can be ok...
20:53 pmurias as it's annoying to always have to copy the invocant to extract the responder from it
20:53 ruoso yeah... I think it's ok...
20:54 ruoso and if someone needs to call on other responder with that invocant, they can use the extended version sm0p has now
20:56 pmurias calling an object with a different responder violates the encapsulation barrier a bit
20:56 ruoso maybe... I'm not sure about it...
20:57 ruoso in fact I tend to ignore that question, because the capture is not really visible in the low-level invocation..
20:57 ruoso although for the higher level, it is indeed very tight up
20:58 pmurias capture is not really visible, i'm confused
20:59 ruoso SMOP_DISPATCH doesn't look at the capture
20:59 ruoso but that's maybe irrelevant
21:00 pmurias guess so
21:00 pmurias * i guess so
21:01 pmurias ruoso: it would be cool for objects to be able to have multiple responder interfaces
21:02 pmurias so that for example python code would see a different api for the object than p6 code
21:02 ruoso pmurias, the problem is that the object won't be binary compatible with both runtimes at the same time anyway
21:03 pmurias meant python code running on smop
21:04 pmurias it wouldn't require a secondary responder interface, just a secondary MESSAGE would be enough
21:05 pmurias or even better
21:05 pmurias it's possible to call methods on the responder interface?
21:07 pmurias i'll sleep now, but would be grateful if you add the $SMOP__SLIME__CurrentFrame.copy test when you have some time
21:08 ruoso pmurias, copy test?
21:08 ruoso pmurias, test/16 is failing sm0p parse here
21:09 ruoso pmurias, oh... sorry... I didn't update misc/sm0p
21:10 pmurias just a version of the test in 17 with copied values would be enough
21:10 pmurias s/would/should/
21:10 pmurias sleep for real&
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21:18 pugs_svn r21321 | ruoso++ | [smop] solves memory leak in test/17.
21:18 ruoso @tell pmurias,  I really didn't understand what you mean... test/17 had a copy call commented out, I just uncommented it and it worked... what do you think that should be tested?
21:18 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo