Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-07-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:14 pugs_svn r21346 | ruoso++ | [smop] YAY! Finally the memory leaks in test/14 are solved. I still need to implement .^!methods().shift and push for the test to pass, but the memory leak being solved is a giant step already. test/15 now only leaks the two char* based Str, but I should work on it now
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01:21 pugs_svn r21347 | ruoso++ | [smop] fixed memory leak in test/15. We are all clean again
01:23 ruoso valgrind++
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01:27 * ruoso sleep &
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03:18 s1n Auzon: if some of the spectest files that are fudged have fudged section that are actually passing, should they not be fudged anymore? the comment indicates it's "unspecced"
03:18 Auzon s1n: all unneeded fudge should be removed. Which file is this?
03:18 s1n range.t
03:19 Auzon which one?
03:19 Auzon There's one in S02 and one in S03
03:19 s1n test 4..7 at least, in S02
03:20 s1n in fact, there are many tests that can be unfudged, so i need to setup a t/ checkout with my svn permissions so i can commit the changes
03:20 Auzon Sounds great :)
03:21 Auzon But yes, they should be unfudged and a comment above them should be listed
03:21 s1n how do i keep a manual checkout in my parrot checkout? i tried a symlink but that caused grief
03:22 Auzon Try removing parrot/languages/perl6/t/spec and checking out pugs/t/spec
03:23 s1n just the spec folder?
03:23 Auzon Yes, because that's all Rakudo checks out in the tests.
03:23 Auzon and put pugs/t/spec in place of the other one, in case I wasn't clear with that
03:24 s1n so move t/spec out, checkout pugs/t/spec to t/?
03:25 Auzon Yeah.
03:26 s1n bleh, i don't know my way around svn well enough, how do i authenticate with it?
03:27 s1n i.e. how do i handle the password?
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03:27 Auzon It should ask you automatically when committing
03:28 s1n just provide username during co and password during ci?
03:29 Auzon both during ci, since you don't need it to co
03:29 Auzon It should cache them the first time, which is why I don't remember either ;)
03:30 s1n i'm used to using cvs thru ssh, makes things much easier
03:31 s1n okay, so back to the problem, what does it mean that it's "unspecced"? the tests pass but the comment indicates there's no reason for it to
03:32 Auzon Unspecced means that it's not defined in the spec
03:32 s1n should i mark it with a TODO or not unfudge it?
03:33 Auzon Go ahead and unfudge but put a # NOTE: .perl on Range is unspecced
03:33 s1n is that the format that is typically used "# NOTE: "?
03:34 Auzon # NOTE or # XXX
03:34 Auzon unspecced is the important thing.
03:34 s1n what's the triple X mean?
03:35 Auzon eye catching attention getter
03:35 s1n oh heh
03:35 s1n i usually use FIXME or TODO since they tend to get highlighted by most editors
03:35 Auzon It's also easy to grep for
03:36 s1n i'll go with the XXX, thanks
03:36 Auzon The p6 highlighting on vim catches XXX but not NOTE
03:36 Auzon I think we prefer XXX
03:37 s1n yeah, looks like pmichaud is using that too
03:41 s1n Auzon: what's the easiest way to fudge a single test file so I can test just what I changed?
03:42 Auzon You can edit spectest_regression.data to only hold that test and then revert it.
03:42 Auzon I usually do this, though:
03:42 Auzon ../../parrot perl6.pbc `~/pugs/t/spec/fudge rakudo testfile`
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03:43 Auzon (I'm assuming you're on Linux)
03:43 s1n yeah
03:46 s1n aight, bedtime, i'll finish this up and check it in tomorrow, thanks
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05:26 ingy [particle]: hai
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06:40 moritz_ Auzon, s1n: echo testfile > t/localtest.data; make localtest
06:40 moritz_ "testfile" is assumed relative to t/spec/
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07:27 mathr2 the year by year returns given this fund's financial report do not match the annual returns given in the monthly performance report. any idea why this might be?
07:27 moritz_ because the reporting software is b0rked?
07:28 mathr2 that is your best guess?
07:28 moritz_ anyway, if it's not written in Perl 6 it's off topic here
07:28 mathr2 i can show you the documents if you are interested.
07:29 mathr2 i can show you the documents if it might help.
07:30 moritz_ is any component of your system written in Perl 6?
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07:36 mathr2 why were the americans not outraged when they found out that their civil servant ted kennedy was bypassing the system when he had his brain tumor?
07:37 mathr2 what incentive do men like ted kennedy have to improve the system when they themselves are exempt from it?
07:37 araujo ?
07:38 mathr2 if your politicians are not going to utilize the very system they are supposed to be serving,
07:38 mathr2 if they are free to live in a bubble world above yours
07:38 mathr2 then they are not your civil-service politicians but instead your rulers.
07:39 mathr2 ted kennedy BYPASSED your health system when he had his brain tumor.
07:39 mathr2 why did you americans not FORCE him to utilize the common system?
07:39 mathr2 HE WOULD HAVE DIED.
07:43 mathr2 At least in the corporate world executives have performance incentive salaries.
07:44 moritz_ politics are also off-topic in #perl6
07:44 araujo there is a channel for it
07:44 mathr2 They are TIED to their vehicle of employment. They have an INCENTIVE to it.
07:44 araujo go there
07:44 mathr2 But these Ted Kennedy politicians are out of this world!
07:44 mathr2 That man would have DIED if it used the system he gave to you!
07:44 kane_ hard to argue with a bot...
07:45 moritz_ ingy, TimToady: if you are around, could you please ban mathr2?
07:49 moritz_ I think we need more ops here :/
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07:51 pmurias ruoso: hi
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08:08 pmurias pugs: &*say.("hi\n");
08:08 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[hi␤␤]
08:09 pmurias pugs: $*OUT.print("hi\n");
08:09 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[hi␤]
08:09 pmurias pugs: $*OUT.say("hi");
08:09 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[hi␤]
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08:40 pugs_svn r21348 | moritz++ | [spec] clean up :todo that's now handled by a fudge
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08:50 pmurias moritz_: what kind of info should i put into the pixie HACKING file?
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08:51 pmurias pixie: say 3;
08:51 p6eval pixie: No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
08:53 moritz_ pmurias: structure of the expected AST, a (very) short summary of available syntax, how to test/debug it
08:54 moritz_ pmurias: and maybe a short note where to start with simple things
08:54 pugs_svn r21349 | pmurias++ | [pixie] renamed brew compile
08:55 pmurias moritz_: would you be satisified with writing the action in, er, perl5?
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08:56 moritz_ pmurias: probably, erm, yes ;-)
08:56 pmurias available syntax means the syntax which elf or pixie parses?
08:57 pmurias s/elf/STD_red/
08:57 moritz_ well, the question is moot if the actions are writtin in perl5 anyway
08:57 moritz_ I meant the Perl 6 subset that I could use for actions - haha ;-)
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09:03 pmurias moritz_: i'll get working on santiy-04 to rembemer what i blocked on last time
09:10 ruoso pmurias, hi...
09:11 * ruoso just passing around before shutting down the computer to go to work...
09:11 ruoso pmurias, have you seen that I did all the plumbing ;)
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09:32 pmurias ruoso: yes
09:32 pmurias ruoso: nice work
09:42 pmurias s/work/job with the plumbing
09:45 pugs_svn r21350 | pmurias++ | [pixie]
09:45 pugs_svn r21350 | pmurias++ | initial HACKING
09:45 pugs_svn r21350 | pmurias++ | fixed to work with refactored elfX
09:47 pmurias moritz_: pixie should now work
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09:48 moritz_ pmurias: OK, I'll take a look
09:49 pmurias moritz_: re simple things you can choose a simple bit of syntax, and backtrack if it gets to complicated ;)
09:49 moritz_ pmurias: that's exactly the answer I didn't want ;-)
09:50 pmurias s/to/too/
09:50 moritz_ for a beginner it's hard to know which features can be implemented without having to implement a whole bunch of other features first
09:51 pmurias you can just swith to the other features
09:51 pmurias * switch
09:51 pmurias ;)
09:52 pmurias moritz_: it's hard to judge it for me to
09:52 moritz_ that's a better answer, albeit not very helpful either ;-)
09:53 pmurias but you can tell me what you want to chose, and i'll see how hard it is
09:53 moritz_ ok, I'll do, but I don't know if I'll find tuits today
09:54 moritz_ I should really be learning stuff for my exams :(
09:54 pmurias physics?
09:54 moritz_ yes
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09:56 araujo moritz_, just remember everything that goes up, has to come down
09:56 moritz_ ?
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14:26 pmurias ruoso: why can't REFERENCE and RELEASE be handled by MESSAGE?
14:27 ruoso hmmm... I thought that as it would be called all the time, it would be nice to have it as part of the responder interface
14:27 pmurias so it's an optimalisation
14:27 pmurias ?
14:29 ruoso yes... it could be made inside MESSAGE as well... but it looked too pessimistic to have to do an additional compairision instead of just invoking a function pointe
14:37 pmurias it can always changed when our method calls are as faster than function pointer invocation ;)
14:44 ruoso hehe
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16:40 pugs_svn r21351 | moritz++ | [irclog] removed obsolete Net::IRC based bot, and updated README a tiny bit
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17:01 pmurias * it can always be changed when our method calls are faster the function pointer invocation
17:01 * pmurias wonders why his english ends up so horrible on irc
17:01 spinclad optimize them enough and it's bound to happen
17:02 spinclad (both english and faster calls)
17:02 moritz_ lol
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17:50 pmurias TimToady: can i add a use v6 to Cursor.pm and STD.pm so nicer error are thrown if perl5 attempts to run them?
17:52 TimToady um Cursor.pm is p5
17:53 TimToady actually, there is no Cursor.pm right now
17:53 TimToady or shouldn't be
17:53 TimToady that Cursor.pm is way obsolete
17:54 pmurias there is one for sure in the repo i'm using
17:54 TimToady STD.pm shouldn't need it because it starts out with 'grammar', but if you add one, be sure to make gimme5 remove it.  :)
17:54 TimToady it's ancient
17:55 TimToady and wrong it any number of ways
17:56 TimToady we need to backtranslate Cursor.pmc to a P6 Cursor.pm that can produce Cursor.pmc via p6-to-p5 translation
17:56 pugs_svn r21352 | pmurias++ | [STD] another [@list] hack to make chaining operators produce proper ast
17:56 pmurias TimToady: we need a proper p6-to-p5 translator
17:57 TimToady indeed, that's the next step; replace gimme5 with a STD-based translator
17:57 TimToady well, not replace, but overlay
17:57 TimToady since we need to keep gimme5 for bootstrapping
17:58 TimToady also need to do some refactoring of namespaces so that "use Perl" means use the language, not the grammar
17:58 TimToady maybe "use STD::Perl" pulls in the grammar
17:59 TimToady or maybe that's backwards...
17:59 TimToady anyway, we need to distinguish the operations from the standpoint of the user
18:00 TimToady they can't both be "use Perl".
18:00 pmurias it's the same issue with use Python, and other language changing modules
18:00 TimToady indeed
18:00 TimToady which is why we need to figure out the policy now
18:01 TimToady possibly even by having a "use" variant that does the other thing, whichever that is
18:02 moritz_ use Perl :syntax; ?
18:02 TimToady blech
18:02 TimToady I mean a different keyword even
18:02 [particle] like 'load'
18:02 TimToady lang Perl;
18:02 [particle] lang++
18:02 TimToady except
18:03 TimToady that ordinary "use" is also expected to mutate langauges
18:03 TimToady *languages
18:03 TimToady so it seems like "use Perl" should be a mutator, and the derives from could perhaps just be intuited from the "is" declarations
18:04 TimToady so "grammar STD::Perl is STD::Cursor" would automatically pull in STD::Cursor without a use, maybe
18:04 moritz_ do we have `require' in perl 6?
18:05 TimToady though we had trouble with "use base" because of htat
18:05 TimToady yes
18:05 moritz_ why not just make require Perl; load the Perl module, and 'use Perl;' be the mutator?
18:06 pmurias require works at runtime
18:06 moritz_ that's a good reason ;)
18:09 TimToady the problem with auto-using or auto-requiring is that you don't know if there's really a module of that name out there or some other module is expected to define the base class, which is why "use base" fails silently if it can't require
18:10 TimToady on the other hand, class names used in Perl 6 are generally required to be defined first
18:11 TimToady so maybe we can just autouse the class if it's not predefined
18:11 pmurias we can always use "use Perl::Grammar"
18:11 TimToady that's not right
18:11 TimToady "Grammar" should be top level
18:11 TimToady otherwise what is the name of Grammar::Perl::Regex?
18:12 TimToady or STD::Perl::Regex, or whatever we end up with
18:12 TimToady (I like the psychology of using STD for the standard language, but it doesn't generalize)
18:12 pmurias use STD::Python?
18:13 TimToady if it *is* the STD Python, that's fine :)
18:13 TimToady but I think we'll have people fighting over the STD space in that case
18:13 TimToady (though only if they implement Python in the Perl namespace :)
18:14 TimToady since otherwise it's just "use Python" as a black box
18:15 pmurias also we will likely also have a Perl grammar for using in regexes, for matching if something is in Perl
18:15 TimToady if we have other languages *choosing* to implement their parsers in STD space, then maybe it really is a Sexually Transmitted Disease :)
18:16 TimToady pmurias: I don't follow that
18:16 TimToady are you referring to the language inside regex closures?
18:17 TimToady that's just an anonymous language to the regex, pulled out of $+LANG
18:18 pmurias something like: if /<Perl.comp_unit>|<Python.comp_unit>/ { say '$_ is in either Perl or Python' }
18:19 spinclad ( 'use Perl <Grammar Actions>' ? )
18:19 TimToady currently written something like / [:lang(Perl) <comp_unit>] | [:lang(Python) <comp_unit>] /
18:20 pmurias the current STD would choke on syntax errors if run on something which is not a perl string
18:20 TimToady no, "use Perl" should mean exclusively that you want to use the language, not the grammar, I think
18:21 TimToady you've just said that a parser will choke on anything it doesn't recognize, or did you mean something more?
18:21 spinclad so 'use Grammar::Intercal' and 'use Grammar::Intercal::Actions' ?
18:21 spinclad s/Grammar/STD/
18:21 spinclad :)
18:22 pmurias TimToady: yes
18:22 pmurias will normal regexes would just fail
18:22 TimToady what's "normal"?
18:23 pmurias s/will/while/
18:23 TimToady currently STD would handle the "normal" regex above if you define the Python grammar
18:23 TimToady [:lang(Perl) <comp_unit>] | [:lang(Python) <comp_unit>] /
18:24 TimToady that's why I put slashes around it
18:25 TimToady but it'll probably end up :lang(STD::Perl) instead
18:25 TimToady next question is whether it's STD::Perl::Regex or just STD::Regex
18:25 TimToady since "STD" already implies a P6 namespace
18:26 pmurias want the perl6 comp_unit die when it encouters a syntax error
18:26 TimToady then other languages could use STD::Regex without having to type the dreaded P word
18:26 pmurias * won't
18:26 TimToady sure, but after a :lang(STD::Python) it won't be calling perl 6's <comp_unit>
18:27 Auzon perl6: my $tracker = 0; for (1..5) { next if 2 < $_ < 4; $tracker = $_;}; say $tracker;
18:27 p6eval elf 21352: OUTPUT[Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::next called at (eval 121) line 6.␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
18:27 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[5␤]
18:27 p6eval ..rakudo 29525: OUTPUT[Could not find non-existent sub if␤current instr.: '_block25' pc 207 (EVAL_14:66)␤]
18:28 moritz_ rakudo does neither "next" nor "if" as an statement modifier
18:28 Auzon The test says it should be 3, and I don't see why.
18:28 moritz_ uhm, shouldn't it be 5?
18:28 Auzon Yeah. I agree.
18:28 pmurias by normal i meant like things in Regex::Common, which just fail if the don't match something instead of throwing an error
18:28 TimToady perhaps it should be unless
18:29 Auzon TimToady: That's what the comments seem to indicate
18:29 moritz_ or just '$tracker = $_ if 2 < $_ < 4'
18:29 moritz_ then it's clear without any break() logic
18:29 Auzon It's specifically testing next.
18:29 moritz_ s/break/next/
18:29 moritz_ oh
18:29 moritz_ ok ;-)
18:29 Auzon t/statements/next.t ;)
18:29 Auzon Sorry, didn't give you context there
18:30 * moritz_ thought it was a test for chained comparison ;-)
18:31 moritz_ somehow I don't think it's a very good test at all ;-)
18:31 TimToady pmurias: so perhaps the relationship of comp_unit with panic is special
18:32 Auzon moritz_: It's the first linked test below "Loop Statements" in S04: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#Loop_statements
18:32 lambdabot Title: S04
18:32 TimToady rather than scoping the parse failure to //, scope it to the comp_unit
18:32 TimToady I'll have to think about that
18:33 TimToady ordinarily you might just write / [:lang(STD::Perl) <comp_unit>] / or / [:lang(STD::Python) <comp_unit>] / currently
18:33 TimToady but the | form would do longest token matching across both languages :)
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18:34 pmurias don't i have to wrap it in try {} to catch die's
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18:35 TimToady the p5 impl of STD is actually using eval {} and die to do backtracking control
18:35 TimToady so it's merely a matter of trapping it correctly
18:36 TimToady it pays to know the scope of one's failure :)
18:37 moritz_ or the scope of one's death ;-)
18:37 TimToady well, in this case, the scope of what you're trying to kill
18:38 TimToady fortunately, "close" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades
18:38 TimToady unfortunately, nukes are a type of hand grenade
18:38 TimToady and at the moment, <panic> is more of a nuke...
18:39 TimToady we need something more like an Orion Drive
18:39 rindolf Hi all.
18:39 rindolf Hi TimToady
18:39 rindolf Hi moritz_
18:39 pmurias hi rindolf
18:39 rindolf Hi pmurias
18:39 rindolf pmurias: I biked today.
18:39 rindolf Was kinda late.
18:39 moritz_ .oO( chainsaw fail() ? )
18:40 rindolf But I saw a group of Brazilians in the end of the Park playing and singing.
18:40 rindolf They rocked.
18:40 rindolf Wish I could record them.
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18:45 pmurias rindolf: don't you carry your cellphone around ;)
18:45 pmurias ?
18:46 rindolf pmurias: I do.
18:47 pugs_svn r21353 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] moved next.t into spec. Fixed a test case in it.
18:50 pmurias TimToady: will the perl6->perl5 translator go through an AST stage or directly to perl5?
19:06 TimToady pmurias: well, even gimme5 uses more of an AST approach for the regex parsing, since it blesses nodes that can have methods called on them
19:10 rindolf pmurias: I thought about calling my mom.
19:11 rindolf pmurias: but recording using it would probably be awful quality.
19:11 rindolf And not sure it has a recording.
19:11 rindolf I heard about a girl who got arrested for photographing the Transformers movie using her cellphone.
19:11 rindolf Do they really consider it copyrights-infringement?
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19:16 moritz_ #perl6-soc in 1/4 h
19:18 spinclad no, they really consider it off-topic...
19:19 spinclad but i've been there myself now and then
19:19 * Auzon .oO(testing an infinite loop? Seems like a bad idea to me)
19:20 moritz_ Auzon: we'll might to have to test for infinite junctions soon :/
19:20 Auzon How can they be infinite? any(1 .. *) ?
19:22 moritz_ Auzon: see p6l, thread "Complex planes"
19:22 moritz_ Auzon: and yes, through being lazy (and perhaps special cased)
19:22 Auzon Ah, ok
19:22 Auzon Makes sense :)
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19:23 pugs_svn r21354 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] smartlink cleanup
19:24 spinclad 2pi * (any(Int) + 1/4)
19:26 spinclad suggests the extension  any(Type)
19:26 spinclad (s/2pi/2*pi/, of course)
19:26 Auzon What would that stringify or numify to?
19:27 * masak liked 2pi :)
19:27 Auzon masak: my constant 2pi = 2 * pi; # ;)
19:27 masak hehe
19:27 Auzon Or define pi as a postfix operator
19:27 spinclad postfix:<pi>
19:27 moritz_ spinclad: any(Type) might not be computable for subsets
19:30 pmurias rindolf: intellectual property is arbitrary, but i find it hard to imagine her facing serious consequences
19:31 spinclad in some uses, it might not need to be generable, only matchable:  is(acos(1), 2pi * any(Int))  perhaps
19:31 rindolf pmurias: yes.
19:31 rindolf pmurias: but it's ridiculous.
19:31 pmurias it's hard to destinguish a photograph from a recording
19:33 spinclad but that (matching 2pi * any(Int)) is of course numerically ill-defined (what epsilon?)
19:34 spinclad s/what epsilon/to within &/
19:44 masak it's r29526 on my box, and I can't get rakudo running
19:44 masak can anyone confirm this?
19:44 masak running ./perl6, I get "Class 'Perl6Sub' already registered!"
19:44 * moritz_ tries
19:45 moritz_ ../../parrt perl6.pbc works fine, and ./perl6 segfaults
19:46 Auzon masak: That usually means you need to rebuild parrot.
19:46 masak :/
19:46 masak I just did
19:46 moritz_ with a "make realclean"?
19:46 Auzon with make realclean?
19:46 moritz_ hehe ;)
19:46 masak moritz_: no. I'll try that
19:46 masak Auzon: no. I'll try that :)
19:51 masak everything works now -- thanks
19:52 masak ok, say I want to read a line from STDIN. do I use =<> ?
19:52 masak my $a = =<>; # gives me a strange "Lexical '$expr' not found" error
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19:55 masak is rakudo in error here, or should I go read up on a given Sxx ?
19:55 moritz_ my $a = =$*IN
19:55 masak ah.
19:55 moritz_ <> is an empty < ... > list, I think
19:55 moritz_ but I'm not sure
19:56 moritz_ or $*IN.readline
19:56 masak my $a = =$*IN # gave me the same error, plus a segfault :/
19:56 speckbot r14563 | larry++ | [S04] another whack at defining consistent closure semantics
19:57 masak ./perl6 -e 'say "hello world"' # gives same error, segfaults
19:57 masak something is in a state of relative b0rkenness here.
19:57 moritz_ open a ticket, if you feel like
19:58 masak I feel like. hold on.
19:58 masak ./perl6 -e '1' # error, segfaults
19:58 masak ./perl6 -e '' # enters REPL mode!
19:59 masak now I have two distinct bugs to report :)
19:59 moritz_ heh, ../../parrot perl6.pbc -e  0 also goes in REPL mode
20:00 masak perl 5 doesn't
20:00 moritz_ so it seems to do a perl5-like truthness test on the argument to -e
20:02 masak truthness test?
20:02 masak seems to me it checks the length of the argument after -e
20:02 moritz_ if ($ARGV[-1]) { .... }
20:03 moritz_ false for '', '0'
20:03 moritz_ true for "foo", "1", "0;" etc.
20:04 masak ah
20:04 masak would `if (defined $ARGV[-1])` help?
20:08 masak ah, EOBATTERY. seeya.
20:12 moritz_ (just for backlog: not quite, unless the '-e' is stripped from @ARGV first)
20:17 pmurias TimToady: can i delete expect_tight_infix?
20:29 spinclad r14563++  # much clearer
20:34 TimToady pmurias: yes, you can delete it
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21:03 pugs_svn r21355 | pmurias++ | [STD] remove expect_tighter_infix
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22:53 speckbot r14564 | larry++ | typo from Brandon++
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