Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-07-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:30 pugs_svn r21390 | s1n++ | [pugs_s02] added stationary and decreasing ranges (though not specced or
01:30 pugs_svn r21390 | s1n++ | passing)
01:33 Auzon s1n: Last night TimToady++ mentioned that it was specced
01:34 s1n Auzon: the .perl is specced?
01:34 s1n or the decreasing ranges?
01:34 Auzon yes. S03:2641
01:34 Auzon err, .perl
01:35 s1n how do i read that, what is that after the colon?
01:35 Auzon by decreasing ranges, do you mean like 5 .. 1? If so, that's not valid
01:35 s1n yeah, i discussed decreasing ranges with bacek last night
01:35 Auzon The value after the colon is the line number (presumably because he acked or grepped for it)
01:35 Auzon The line number in the .pod that is
01:36 s1n we flipped through the spec and didn't see any specific mention that they have to be monotonically increasing
01:36 s1n where's std.pm stashed so i can look this up?
01:37 Auzon pugs/src/perl6/STD.pm ?
01:37 s1n btw, the .perl discussion came up because moritz_ told me it wasn't specced, i didn't see TimToady's comment
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01:38 Auzon Yeah, you pinged out, and missed it in #parrot
01:39 s1n err, i don't really know how to read this, and it looks like it's using a unicode character op, so i'll take his word that it's safe to do the .perl in tests
01:41 s1n anyways, the decreasing ranges thing came up becausei wanted to try it (the synopsis only described them in a general sense), and it didn't work, i talked some with bacek, and we agreed to just add them in skipped
01:41 s1n we can remove them later if need be i suppose
01:58 Auzon They're not allowed in P6 though :-/
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01:58 s1n where does it say they're specifically not allowed?
01:58 s1n i.e. they are strictly monotonically increasing
01:59 Auzon "Ranges are not autoreversing: 2..1 is always a null range. Likewise, 1^..^2 produces no values when iterated, but does represent the interval from 1 to 2 excluding the endpoints when used as a pattern."
01:59 Auzon first paragraph under http://perlcabal.org/syn/S03.html#Range_semantics
01:59 lambdabot Title: S03
02:00 s1n hmm
02:01 s1n where'd you find this, what is perlcabal?
02:01 s1n well, ok, i'll revise the tests to verify these things
02:01 Auzon perlcabal.org is the webserver running on Feather, a community development server
02:02 s1n i knew what feather was, just didn't know it hosted up the spec
02:02 Auzon They have the suite crossrefed with the tests. It's very useful.
02:03 s1n why are the semantics of ranges tested in S02 and S03?
02:04 Auzon the tests in S02 refer to the data structure. The tests in S03 refer to the operator used to construct them
02:04 Auzon I suppose they probably should be combined, but it might be a bit lengthy then
02:04 s1n yeah but there are a number of tests in common
02:05 s1n they're testing basic stuff like .. in both places
02:06 s1n i didn't know about S03-operators/range.t doing this as well, i basically shouldn't have added those tests and probably think we should remove the duplicate tests
02:07 Auzon Combining and reducing duplicates would be good as long as coverage is still good
02:08 s1n sigh, nothing like having to roll back your first change
02:08 Auzon Don't rollback, just revise ;)
02:09 s1n what needs revising, i was testing the semantics, which s02 doesn't really do
02:09 s1n take a look at those changes and what's being tested in s03-operators and tell me what you think should be modified here
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02:13 Auzon I don't see many (if any) tests for reversed ranges in S03, so you can either split them between S02 and S03, leave them be, or combine S02/S03.
02:14 Auzon As for your tests, you can change them to check if they fail, or write them using 'reverse' or ':by(-1)' (if numeric).
02:15 Auzon also, a heads up: <a b c> is the same as qw(a b c) so you should not include the commas. You can also omit the square brackets if you want
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02:28 s1n okay well, i could move the autoreversing range tests to s03, have them check for failure, and leave the data-type specific tests in s02
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02:45 s1n Auzon: should I have the s02 tests just do the .perl tests and have s03 test autoreversing ranges?
02:46 s1n it looks like the tests i added for autoreversing ranges really could be moved over to s03, but i can leave them there testing .perl
02:57 Auzon That's fine
02:57 Auzon If they work in either, just leave them where they are.
02:59 s1n well, the tests i added to s02 had to be skipped because i didn't know autoreversing arrays were specifically not supported
03:00 s1n i'm basically going to change the s02 tests to just test .perl, and only the basics and let s03 test the details
03:00 Auzon Sounds good.
03:02 Auzon hm. The Rakudo test graph hasn't updated since 7-15...
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07:18 pugs_svn r21391 | lwall++ | [STD] much improved error reporting, many buglets fixed
07:20 TimToady oh, and it parses "use v6;" correctly now :)
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07:52 pugs_svn r21392 | lwall++ | [STD] implement :P5
07:52 pugs_svn r21392 | lwall++ | [S02-magicals] various cleanups mostly involving rand 1000
07:54 bacek TimToady++
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10:59 pmurias ruoso: hi
10:59 ruoso pmurias, hi
11:00 pmurias ^!methods serves only as information for the metaclass?
11:01 ruoso pmurias, I thought ^!methods as the RW api for adding methods...
11:01 ruoso it's declared as an Array... but it should probably be a Hash of Array of Method
11:02 pmurias but only the metaobject interprets the ^!methods?
11:04 pmurias p6opaque passes all method calls to the metaclass, not looking at what is stored in ^!methods?
11:07 ruoso yes... p6opaque directly delegates to the metaclass
11:07 ruoso it only intercepts the .^! calls
11:07 ruoso it's up to the metaclass to decide how to dispatch the method call
11:10 pmurias could we store the metadata in instance storage?
11:11 pmurias istance storage being also called private storage
11:14 ruoso pmurias, hmmm... the instance storage is package-oriented
11:15 ruoso the metadata is prototype/class oriented
11:15 pmurias it's a HoH?
11:15 ruoso the instance storage? yes...
11:15 ruoso because each package has a "private  namespace" in the object
11:16 ruoso that's how $!a works
11:16 ruoso the methods, otoh, are not package oriented
11:16 ruoso and are inheritable
11:16 ruoso that's how $.a works
11:17 ruoso if we were talking about strict prototype-based OO, we could have simply "instance storage"
11:17 ruoso but even then... the notion of "defined"ness would be messed up
11:17 ruoso by default, in p6opaque, an object is defined if it has instance storage
11:17 pmurias what i mean is that the metaclass might deside to store methods in an entirely different format than the supplied metaclass?
11:18 pugs_svn r21393 | masak++ | [various test files] fixed a few spelling errors and a missing semicolon
11:18 pmurias s/?/
11:18 ruoso pmurias, supplied by the object, you mean...
11:18 pmurias yes
11:18 ruoso yes... it can
11:18 pugs_svn r21394 | masak++ | [t/spec/S29-list/pick.t] answered challenge by Auzon++:
11:18 pugs_svn r21394 | masak++ | "There should be a better way to write this"
11:19 ruoso it can have a WSDL document stored somewhere
11:19 pmurias sorry meant metadara
11:19 ruoso methods is part of the metadata
11:19 pmurias * metadata
11:19 pmurias and the metadata structure is hard coded
11:20 ruoso but you can inherit objects that have different structures
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11:23 pmurias http://search.cpan.org/~sartak/Class-MOP-0.63/lib/Class/MOP.pm#About_Metaclass_compatibility
11:23 lambdabot Title: Class::MOP - A Meta Object Protocol for Perl 5 - search.cpan.org, http://tinyurl.com/6gywk7
11:28 pmurias re package oriented we migh have a metadata pseudo-package
11:34 pmurias i'll work on Arrays untill we think it out
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11:35 * ruoso had a network problem
11:36 ruoso re metadata package... that's why there's a REPR api
11:36 ruoso to make that independent on how the object is laid out
11:37 ruoso pmurias, the thing is that the HOW will ask the object using the REPR api
11:38 ruoso there are three "sections" of the REPR api...
11:38 ruoso the first is about WHENCE and WHAT
11:38 ruoso instanceof === WHAT
11:39 ruoso (no instanceof means that object is its own WHAT)
11:39 ruoso pugs: say Int.WHAT
11:39 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Int␤]
11:41 ruoso then you have the meta data (which includes isa, does, HOW, WHO, methods and attribute metadata)
11:41 ruoso and also the intance storage ( HoH, holding private storage for each package)
11:42 pmurias where does the list of prototypes the object inherits from live?
11:46 ruoso pmurias, we could have a mixture, meaning that an object could both have instance data *and* metadata
11:46 ruoso but we would have a problem that de user could call Object.BUILDALL()
11:46 ruoso and undef would be defined
11:47 pmurias is it forbiden by the spec?
11:47 ruoso that's why we're considering restrict it in a way that an object either has metadata or instance data
11:47 ruoso pmurias, it's underspecced
11:48 ruoso but TimToady also agreed that this restriction could be sane..
11:48 pmurias in prototype oo an object has both
11:48 ruoso meaning that $foo does Dog would create a new anon prototype
11:48 ruoso pmurias, except if you have prototype-oo by delegation
11:49 ruoso but I'm not really sure that restriction should be set
11:49 pmurias what is prototyoe-oo not by delegation
11:49 pmurias * prototype
11:49 ruoso where every method is inside the object itself
11:49 ruoso and you clone instead of inherit
11:52 * ruoso brb&
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13:53 bacek pugs: say "$"
13:53 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[$␤]
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14:02 masak bacek: arguably it could be a syntax error too, as in Perl 5
14:03 bacek masak: agreed.
14:05 pmurias elf: eval_perl5(' print " $" ";')
14:05 p6eval elf 21394: OUTPUT[String found where operator expected at (eval 118) line 1, at end of line␤     (Missing operator before ?)␤Can't find string terminator '"' anywhere before EOF at (eval 118) line 1.␤ at (eval 117) line 3␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
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14:34 TimToady Obsolete use of $" variable; in Perl 6 please use .join() method instead at line 1:
14:34 TimToady ------> "$" ";"
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14:35 pmurias TimToady: eval_perl5 evals perl5
14:35 masak TimToady: I'm sure rakudo was about to say that right before it hung
14:35 TimToady yes, I was just telling you what STD says
14:36 TimToady only the "$" comes out green and the ";" comes out red
14:37 TimToady I suppose within double quotes $" could give a different error
14:38 TimToady surprisingly easy to arrange these days :)
14:43 TimToady Now says "Can't use a $ in the last position of a string at line 1:
14:43 pmurias TimToady: do i have to switch on anything to get the colors? (or do i have to hack them in myself ;)
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14:46 pmurias sorry, didn't svn up;make
14:47 TimToady should just work if you have ANSI::Color
14:48 pugs_svn r21395 | lwall++ | [STD] more tweaks, catch final $"
14:48 masak TimToady++
14:49 pmurias ththe obsolete thing being green is arguably wrong ;)
14:49 pmurias * the
14:50 TimToady the part it thought it parsed is green
14:50 TimToady but yeah, could fix that...
14:50 pmurias i can do it ;)
14:51 TimToady or maybe I should set it up so we can highlight something in the middle with yellow
14:55 TimToady 'course, I've picked the worst colors for anyone who is RG colorblind...
14:58 TimToady well, I should really be getting subscript declarations to parse, or maybe heredocs
15:00 TimToady I was originally just going to parse a subscript declaration as a subscript, but last night I ran into:
15:00 TimToady Failed to parse a required term at line 270:
15:00 TimToady ------>     my @arr[-->Num] = <1 2.1 3.2>;
15:00 TimToady and -->Num isn't a normal lvalue :(
15:01 TimToady *rvalue
15:01 TimToady well, probably want a special rule for it anyway, since subscript declation is a rather restricted language
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15:33 cjfields rakudo: my sub foo() {}
15:33 p6eval rakudo 29608: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in type()␤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6;Grammar;Actions;scope_declarator' pc 114555 (src/gen_actions.pir:6310)␤]
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17:04 pugs_svn r21396 | lwall++ | [STD] infrastructure needed by heredocs
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18:33 pugs_svn r21397 | lwall++ | [STD] correctly parse 'multi f() {}' when there's no trailing newline
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19:06 pmurias TimToady: is there a TODO list for STD, or do you fix bugs as soon as you find them?
19:19 rindolf Hi all.
19:19 rindolf TimToady: here?
19:20 pmurias rindolf: hi
19:21 rindolf pmurias: hi.
19:21 rindolf pmurias: I got a killer idea for a website today, but it has a technical problem.
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19:21 pmurias what is your idea?
19:22 rindolf pmurias: a site for collectively working on subtitle for videos in YT/Metacafe/etc.
19:22 pmurias rindolf: do you know anybody who works on subtitles?
19:23 rindolf pmurias: for movies, etc.?
19:23 rindolf pmurias: I worked on transcribing talks and audiocasts.
19:24 rindolf I transcribed TimToady's "Present Continuous - Future Perfect" talk.
19:24 rindolf After he gave it on OSDC::Israel::2006
19:24 pmurias why?
19:24 rindolf pmurias: well, we initiated this transcription on request of a deaf FOSS activist.
19:24 rindolf We collaborated on a wiki.
19:24 pmurias i see
19:25 pmurias and for movies?
19:25 rindolf http://wiki.osdc.org.il/index.php/Larry_Wall_-_Present_Continuous,_Future_Perfect
19:25 lambdabot Title: Larry Wall - Present Continuous, Future Perfect - Perl, http://tinyurl.com/5cqzz3
19:25 rindolf pmurias: no, not for movies, yet.
19:25 rindolf pmurias: most FOSS-related movies have awful quality.
19:25 rindolf Like videos of talks.
19:26 rindolf pmurias: enjoy! ^^^ It's great , as most things TimToady
19:26 pmurias what's you technical problem?
19:26 rindolf pmurias: well, the ##freebsd guy argued that the subtitle will be very small.
19:26 rindolf subtitles.
19:27 rindolf I was told of a tool to add subtitles to Flash videos though.
19:27 rindolf I'll see.
19:29 pmurias re Larry's presentation thanks, i'm *listning* to it now
19:37 rindolf pmurias: ah.
19:37 rindolf pmurias: OK.
19:37 rindolf pmurias: I prefer reading.
19:37 rindolf pmurias: normally.
19:37 rindolf pmurias: but you're welcome.
19:37 rindolf pmurias: we use.perl.org'ed it.
19:37 rindolf Back at 2006.
19:38 pmurias i don't like to read from computer screens
19:39 rindolf Ah.
19:40 rindolf I'm writing a "FOSS Licences Wars" article now.
19:41 pmurias dosn't sound usefull
19:41 rindolf pmurias: it's not.
19:41 rindolf pmurias: but it's something I need to get out of my system.
19:42 rindolf pmurias: are you using the X11L for all your software?
19:42 pmurias i don't really know
19:43 pmurias i just put my open source stuff in the pugs repo
19:43 rindolf pmurias: you just commit it.
19:43 rindolf pmurias: ah.
19:43 rindolf pmurias: well, I think the Pugs core is X11L.
19:43 rindolf Or at least that's what Audreyt wanted.
19:43 rindolf But the Perl 6 code is Artistic.
19:44 rindolf pmurias: maybe I should work on code instead.
19:44 pmurias ye
19:44 pmurias s
19:44 rindolf My homepage and Google are neutralised for a few hours.
19:44 pmurias i mostly worked on other peoples stuff, so it's what they prefere
19:44 rindolf I can work on my Solitaire verifier.
19:44 rindolf Ah.
19:44 rindolf pmurias: you can disclaim ownership.
19:45 rindolf I have a lot of original FOSS code.
19:45 pmurias why?
19:45 rindolf Projects I started from scratch.
19:45 rindolf pmurias: so they (or whoever) won't have to consult you when re-licensing.
19:46 pmurias if the people i'm working with deside to GPL stuff i'll do it with my code too
19:46 rindolf pmurias: ah.
19:47 rindolf pmurias: but then if they decide to make it LGPL (or whatever), then they'll have to ask you.
19:47 pmurias it's not to much to them
19:47 pmurias s/to/for/
19:49 rindolf pmurias: yes, but if you have 1000's of contributors like the Linux kernel does, and they want to convert to a different licence, you got a mess.
19:49 pmurias * it's not very much effort for them
19:49 rindolf Mozilla tried it.
19:50 pmurias it's possible to convert from X11 to anything, and converting from GPL is a thing is should agree to
19:51 rindolf pmurias: right.
19:51 rindolf pmurias: that's why I like the X11L.
19:51 rindolf Also converting from GPL-v2-only to GPL-v2-and-above or GPL-v3-only.
19:52 pmurias GPL-v2-only is not a very good choice
19:54 pmurias but i generally agree with FSF on non-technical matters
19:57 rindolf pmurias: ah.
19:57 rindolf pmurias: GPL-v2 is Linux kernel.
19:57 rindolf And Ghostscript.
19:57 rindolf And stuff.
19:57 rindolf That's why they started GNU PDF.
19:57 rindolf Which is GPLv3+
19:58 * rindolf is going to start bsdl-violations.org
19:58 rindolf or x11l-violations.org
19:59 * rindolf is writing some code.
19:59 rindolf Fist! The tests!
19:59 rindolf And noo - de Moose!
19:59 rindolf Actually I'm not using Moose.
19:59 rindolf I'm using C::A.
20:00 rindolf Class::Accessor.
20:00 rindolf But now I have to write the code to pass the tests.
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20:01 pmurias you're talking about your Solitare verifier?
20:02 rindolf pmurias: yes.
20:02 rindolf I'm not adding Baker's Game support.
20:02 rindolf Only have Freecell now.
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20:05 * pmurias has an *extremely* low opinion of solitare
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20:21 pugs_svn r21398 | putter++ | misc/elf/planning/: Created.  With a dependency graph sketch.
20:23 * pmurias wonders if it's an abuse of subversion to use it to msg people ;)
20:23 rindolf pmurias: are you Putter?
20:23 rindolf pmurias: have you ever played Freecell?
20:23 rindolf pmurias: Solitaire is more than Klondike you know.
20:26 pmurias rindolf: i'm pmurias, mncharity is putter
20:26 rindolf pmurias: ah.
20:26 rindolf pmurias: so - Solitaire is a large collection of one-player French card games.
20:26 pmurias rindolf: i would even consider installing solitare
20:27 pmurias * wouldn't
20:27 rindolf pmurias: and Freecell and related variants have been the object of a lot of research.
20:27 rindolf Solving Freecell was shown to be NP-complete.
20:27 rindolf pmurias: You mean something like PySolFC?
20:28 pmurias i mean i wouldn't want to play any sort of a card game
20:28 rindolf pmurias: not even Poker?
20:29 pmurias no
20:29 rindolf pmurias: which kind of games do you like?
20:29 rindolf pmurias: computer or otherwise.
20:29 pmurias starcraft, glest
20:30 pmurias real style strategies
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20:31 pmurias * real time strategies
20:31 pmurias ;)
20:32 pmurias i enjoy various board games like settlers of ctan, risk
20:34 rindolf pmurias: ah.
20:34 rindolf pmurias: I like WarCraft 2.
20:34 rindolf pmurias: finished it.
20:34 rindolf pmurias: and I also like WC 3, but it's too damn long.
20:34 rindolf I had to start again.
20:34 rindolf pmurias: ah.
20:35 rindolf pmurias: don't you like puzzle games?
20:35 pmurias like sudoku?
20:35 rindolf pmurias: maybe you'll enjoy Nurikabe.
20:35 rindolf perlbot: nurikabe
20:35 pmurias i hate sudoku
20:35 rindolf pmurias: Sudoku, Sokoban, Nurikabe.
20:35 rindolf Kakuro
20:35 rindolf They're all different.
20:35 rindolf pmurias: I hate sudoku too.
20:36 pmurias doing math exercises is much more enjoyable than sudoku
20:39 pugs_svn r21399 | lwall++ | [STD] get heredoc method back to parseable
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20:50 rindolf pmurias: I guess.
20:50 rindolf pmurias: more challenging too.
20:50 rindolf pmurias: I like math exercises.
20:50 rindolf pmurias: but some of the math riddles are positively difficult.
20:50 orphean i don't see the point of sudoku. you just churn through an algorithm to fill it out.
20:51 orphean its like having fun making logarithm charts by hand :(
20:51 rindolf And in the Technion my friend and I used to sit for days on end on some of our assiggments.
20:51 rindolf Solving two questions a day.
20:51 rindolf orphean: a computer can solve Sudoku.
20:51 rindolf A few ISrael.pm'ers wrote a Sudoko solver.
20:51 orphean that's my point exactly
20:51 rindolf One wrote it in JS.
20:52 rindolf But a computer can solve Freecell too usually, but it's still fun.
20:52 rindolf Because a computer just DFSes through the states' graph.
20:53 orphean yeah but that's just the computer brute forcing the game in essence
20:53 rindolf orphean: yeah.
20:53 orphean sudoku is, in a sense, more trivial since there's a well formed algorithm in place that a human can follow just as well (albeit slower)
20:55 rindolf orphean: yeah.
20:56 rindolf As the numbre of columns expands Sudoku become NP-complete.
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21:04 rindolf orphean: I think Nurikabe would be harder to write a solver for.
21:08 rindolf orphean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurikabe
21:08 lambdabot Title: Nurikabe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
21:09 rindolf orphean: thing is - this spatial deduction is easy for a human with some practice, but it's insanely complex to implement in a computer's program.
21:10 orphean hm that's interesting
21:12 rindolf I had some ideas for how to write a Nurikabe solver, but I neglected to start working on it.
21:12 rindolf wanted to write it in CL.
21:12 orphean CL seems like a logical choice
21:12 rindolf Partly because it can be compiled and because Perl may be much slower.
21:12 rindolf orphean: C is much more suitable than CL for Freecell, though.
21:13 rindolf And someone wrote a Freecell solver in x86 Assembly.
21:13 rindolf For DOS.
21:13 rindolf Using his own Macro assembler written in itself.
21:13 orphean I guess its true that some people have a lot of free time on their hands
21:13 rindolf Which originated from 8080 and CP/M or something like that.
21:13 rindolf It's only 15 KB.
21:13 rindolf orphean: that's nothing in comparison to libavl2.
21:14 rindolf It's a 600 pages book about balanced binary trees.
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21:15 rindolf http://www.stanford.edu/~blp/avl/
21:15 lambdabot Title: Ben Pfaff: GNU libavl
21:15 rindolf He's a graduate student BTW.
21:15 rindolf In Stanford.
21:15 orphean one can get the fact its about balanced binary trees from the name alone i would hope
21:15 rindolf He knows Knuth.
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21:27 rindolf orphean: yes.
21:28 rindolf orphean: well, it also does many RedBlack stuff.
21:28 rindolf It's a literate programming using Texinfo.
21:28 rindolf I compiled it into a PDF several times.
21:28 rindolf Just for the heck of it.
21:29 rindolf http://www.stanford.edu/~blp/avl/libavl.html/ - hmmm....
21:29 lambdabot Title: GNU libavl 2.0.2
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21:50 pmurias rindolf: why do you mention libavl?
21:50 rindolf pmurias: because orphean said some people have too much time on their hands.
21:51 * pmurias has lots of free time now
21:52 rindolf pmurias: then re-implement libavl2 as X11Led code.
21:52 rindolf ;-)
21:52 pmurias what is it licence now?
21:52 rindolf It's GPLed.
21:53 pmurias didn't i tell you i prefer GPL?
21:53 rindolf pmurias: ah.
21:53 pmurias ;)
21:55 pmurias and reimplementing and open source thing is very demotivating
21:55 pmurias s/and/an/
21:55 rindolf pmurias: yeah, I get you.
21:56 rindolf But tell it to Ovid and ANDYA.
21:56 rindolf They re-implemented Test::Harness.
21:56 pmurias \
21:56 rindolf While I slaved on refactoring/revamping it as Test::Run.
22:00 pmurias g'night
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22:05 rindolf orphean: here?
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