Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-07-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 bacek joined #perl6
00:39 Auzon std: qw(a b c d)
00:39 p6eval std 21641: OUTPUT[############# PARSE FAILED #############]
00:39 Auzon std: 1+1
00:39 p6eval std 21641: OUTPUT[parse ok]
00:39 Auzon hm, the line counting is off somewhere
00:39 vixey woah
00:40 vixey how is std run?
00:40 Auzon tryfile in pugs/src/perl6
00:40 vixey it's pugs and not the std.pm?
00:40 Auzon No, it's STD.pm.
00:41 Auzon It's stored in src/perl6 in the pugs repo
00:42 Auzon It parses pretty much all of t/spec
00:48 pugs_svn r21642 | Auzon++ | [evalbot] another attempt at improving STD.pm support in evalbot
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00:53 Auzon bah, it's not working now.
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01:32 Auzon (sorry for the p6eval noise)
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01:45 pugs_svn r21643 | Auzon++ | [evalbot] STD works in evalbot again now
01:46 hercynium joined #perl6
01:47 Auzon ok. Now at least it works. It spews all over the console though :-/ (sorry moritz)
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01:48 Tene STD: 1+1
01:48 Auzon std: 1+1
01:48 p6eval std 21642: OUTPUT[parse ok]
01:48 Auzon std: /<[]]>/
01:48 p6eval std 21642: OUTPUT[parse ok]
01:48 Auzon erm. I thought it worked...
01:48 Tene rakudo: [~] <m oo se>
01:48 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Syntax error at line 1, near "[~] <m oo "␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
01:48 Auzon std: +++++++++
01:48 p6eval std 21642: OUTPUT[parse ok]
01:48 Auzon :-/
01:49 Tene std: {{{{{{{{{{{{{
01:49 Auzon I'm going to bang my head into a wall, and then start my own copy elsewhere to figure it out
01:49 p6eval std 21642: OUTPUT[parse ok]
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02:28 s1n is the readme correct in stating that rakudo specific (languages/perl6) patches go to rakudobug at perl dot org?
02:28 hercynium joined #perl6
02:37 ampersand i believe so, yes
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02:46 s1n pmichaud: i saw on rt# 44211 you mentioned 'e' was no longer in the spec, is that true?
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06:09 meppl good night
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07:26 pugs_svn r21644 | audreyt++ | * INSTALL - Move the up-to-date Pugs installation instruction up.
07:28 pugs_svn r21645 | audreyt++ | * Add Time::Out support to "make smoke".
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08:01 pugs_svn r21646 | lwall++ | [STD] renamed main package to STD
08:01 pugs_svn r21646 | lwall++ | fixed package name conflicts
08:01 pugs_svn r21646 | lwall++ | fixed tests that used function call syntax for quotes
08:01 pugs_svn r21646 | lwall++ | various other bugs
08:01 pugs_svn r21646 | lwall++ | now parses all but one of the t/spec tests (needs macros)
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08:23 pmurias TimToady: how should grammar modification which should be propagated be marked? and how should their lexicality be handled?
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08:30 masak is it allowed to have an enum with only one value?
08:31 pmurias why not?
08:31 masak rakudo: enum Weekday<Monday>
08:31 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Perl6Str'␤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6;Grammar;Actions;enum_declarator' pc 132437 (src/gen_actions.pir:12724)␤]
08:31 masak pmurias: because rakudo fails on it
08:31 masak rakudo: enum <Monday>
08:31 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Perl6Str'␤current instr.: '!anon_enum' pc 12173 (src/gen_builtins.pir:7750)␤]
08:31 moritz_ masak: that's because <Monday> is a Str, not a List, and rakudo tries to handle it as a List
08:32 masak moritz_: feels like a common problem
08:32 moritz_ rakudo: say <Monday>.WHAT
08:32 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Str␤]
08:32 moritz_ masak: it's one of the reasons so many list builtins are moved to Any
08:32 masak yes.
08:33 masak it still feels like one of those slightly askew things to which a Grand Solution would be welcome
08:34 pmurias rakudo_svn: enum Weekday <a b>
08:34 pmurias rakudo: enum letter <a b>
08:34 p6eval rakudo 29834: RESULT[Null PMC access in find_method()␤current instr.: '_block16' pc 25 (EVAL_16:12)␤]
08:34 pmurias rakudo: enum letter<a b>
08:34 p6eval rakudo 29834: RESULT[Null PMC access in find_method()␤current instr.: '_block16' pc 25 (EVAL_16:12)␤]
08:34 pmurias rakudo: enum <a b>
08:34 moritz_ rakudo: enum letter<a b>; say 1
08:34 p6eval rakudo 29834: RESULT[{"a" => 0, "b" => 1}]
08:34 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[1␤]
08:34 pmurias rakudo: enum<a b>
08:34 p6eval rakudo 29834: RESULT[{"a" => 0, "b" => 1}]
08:36 pmurias TimToady: _STARr keeps an useless @all, should i remove it?
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09:11 pugs_svn r21647 | fglock++ | [v6.pm] fixed array emitter
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10:01 pmurias std: 1 =~ 2
10:01 p6eval std 21647: OUTPUT[cp: cannot create regular file `lex/STD/EXPR': Permission deniedObsolete use of =~ to do pattern matching; in Perl 6 please use ~~ instead at line 1:]
10:01 pmurias std: {{{{{
10:01 p6eval std 21647: OUTPUT[parse ok]
10:01 moritz_ "here be dragons"
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11:05 pugs_svn r21648 | fglock++ | [v6.pm] complex
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11:09 s1n moritz_: thanks for applying that patch so soon, i'll mark the tests with some todo's and come back to it when we have use working
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11:10 moritz_ s1n: I think we should even test that there is no 'e' exported by default
11:10 moritz_ eval_dies_ok 'e', 'no "e" exported by default';
11:11 moritz_ sadly rakudo is currently rather broken, as documented in RT #57452
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11:33 s1n moritz_: okay, i'll add a todo and check for the bareword in that test too, i'll also look at that RT, all tonight
11:33 moritz_ s1n: great
11:37 pugs_svn r21649 | pmurias++ | [smop] subs work when called for the first time
11:43 moritz_ http://use.perl.org/~audreyt/journal/37062
11:43 lambdabot Title: Journal of audreyt (6654)
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11:58 moritz_ pugs: say $?PUGS_VERSION
11:58 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Perl6 User's Golfing System, version 6.2.13.11, July 31, 2008␤]
11:58 moritz_ audreyt++
12:04 masak audreyt has trouble finding a job? I thought by now she'd be getting several job offers per week
12:05 Alias_ She needs quite a bit of cash
12:05 Alias_ Becoming audrey hasn't been cheap
12:05 * moritz_ has a freaky idea regarding Perl 6 donations and audreyt...
12:05 masak I can understand that
12:05 masak I'd donate.
12:06 Alias_ I doubt you can donate enough to matter
12:06 Alias_ :)
12:06 masak might be a start
12:07 moritz_ Alias_: the TPF has received 100k USD for Perl 6 development
12:07 Alias_ true
12:08 moritz_ don't know if they want to spend anything on pugs
12:13 pugs_svn r21650 | fglock++ | [v6.pm] more tests
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12:22 masak I still think it should be exceedingly easy for potential employers to see the worth of having audreyt on board. she's one of those "Done, and Gets Things Smart" people that Steve Yegge talks about.
12:24 moritz_ indeed
12:25 masak hear that, all you lurking headhunters on #perl6?
12:26 moritz_ I guess asking for jobs in a perl related journal increases her chances of getting a perl related job, though
12:26 masak anything haskell related should be easy, too
12:27 moritz_ for me that would be s/anything/nothing/ ;-)
12:28 masak moritz_: I'm not a virtuoso either, but I can wield the Maybe monad now
12:28 masak I feel it makes me a better programmer just to know about it
12:28 masak ("better" meaning "slightly better close to the very bottom of the scale", by the way)
12:29 moritz_ in perl, every variable has the implicit Maybe monad ;)
12:29 masak sort of
12:29 masak but in haskell, you can "bless" every calculation with "maybeness"
12:29 masak that's extremely powerful
12:29 moritz_ every variable as Just value | undef
12:30 moritz_ s/as/is/
12:30 masak having it on by default as in Perl, and many other languages, creates the risk of uncaught undefs
12:30 masak that hardly happens in Haskell
12:30 moritz_ yes, right
12:31 masak monads++
12:31 moritz_ low level types in perl 6 aren't Maybe, but I think that's the only exception
12:32 masak and even that is with a nod to the metal, not to type theory
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13:22 Limbic_Region salutations all
13:22 * moritz_ has a deja-vu ;-)
13:23 moritz_ Limbic_Region: have you seen that blog post by audreyt?
13:23 Limbic_Region I have already emailed her
13:23 moritz_ ok ;)
13:24 * zamanfou is now away: In the rain my tears are forever lost.
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13:38 pmurias ruoso: is there anything we need implemented before lexicals?
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14:29 jdv79 cool, she's still alive.
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14:39 moritz_ masak: in  #57448 you're missing the actual revision number
14:39 masak moritz_: I just saw that too
14:39 masak sloppy-and-paste
14:40 masak I'll reply and supply it
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14:42 * moritz_ observes with delight that Rakudo can't complain about lack of tests
14:42 moritz_ s/tests/testers/
14:42 [particle] masak: do you create spec tests for these errors you find in rakudo?
14:43 masak [particle]: not always, no.
14:43 [particle] you should consider it. it would help all perl 6 implementations
14:43 moritz_ I usally try to add some when I see tickets
14:43 [particle] the bug reports are quite helpful
14:44 masak [particle]: actually, you could help me clear up what goes in the spec test and what doesn't
14:44 masak I thought the spec tests were _spec_ tests because they reflect the spec
14:44 moritz_ well, they say for example that every object has a .WHAT method
14:44 masak using that logic, they shouldn't be contaminated with regression tests from diverse bugs in implementations
14:45 masak moritz_: yes, that could be a spec test
14:45 moritz_ masak: they are only bugs because they violate the specs
14:45 masak hm.
14:45 [particle] you're testing that Enum has a .perl method... that's a spec test
14:45 moritz_ thus all regressioin tests are spec tests
14:45 masak ok
14:45 [particle] where it belongs, that's the hard bit
14:46 masak now that I know, I will be more active in providing tests
14:46 moritz_ the only thing that does not go into the spec tests are things that are implementation specific
14:46 masak oki
14:48 pugs_svn r21651 | moritz++ | [spec] testing .WHAT and .perl on enum mixins
14:49 pugs_svn r21652 | moritz++ | [spec] test .WHAT and .perl on actual enums, masak++
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14:50 moritz_ sad thing is that the tests I've added are not in spectest_regression
14:50 moritz_ can somebody please take a look at S12-enums/thorough.t, line  28?
14:51 moritz_ it uses |~~ - am I right in assuming that it should actually be !~~ ?
14:51 [particle] what the heck is |~~ ? that's funky
14:52 masak moritz_: I think you're correct
14:52 moritz_ STD.pm parses it
14:53 [particle] blame says: 21146     moritz   ok $x |~~  Wed,     "smartmatch worked correctly ($x-4)";
14:53 [particle] sure, it's valid perl, but looks funky
14:53 [particle] prefix:|
14:54 moritz_ [particle]: I think I moved that file in r21146
14:54 moritz_ can you have a prefix operator on another operator?
14:54 [particle] sure
14:55 [particle] you can stack prefix:! for example
14:55 moritz_ or does it parse as $something infix:<|> prefix:<~>prefix:<~> $other?
14:55 [particle] longest token
14:55 moritz_ right
14:56 [particle] so, !! may be problematic
14:56 pugs_svn r21653 | moritz++ | [spec] fixed negated smart match in enum test
14:56 moritz_ [particle]: we've got preifx:<?> for perl 5 stlye !! usage
14:57 [particle] right, but it's a perl5ism that may want a warning
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14:58 moritz_ we could use a no-op prefix:<!!> to mark important lines in our code... ;-)
14:59 pugs_svn r21654 | fglock++ | [v6.pm] IO fixes
15:01 masak moritz_: !! is not no-op :)
15:01 moritz_ ;)
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15:15 TimToady moritz_: subsets are "Just" types
15:16 moritz_ rakudo: say Int.What
15:16 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Method 'What' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 24 (EVAL_13:15)␤]
15:16 moritz_ pugs: say Int.WHAT
15:16 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Int␤]
15:17 moritz_ pugs: say Int.perl
15:17 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[::Int␤]
15:18 moritz_ TimToady: how absolute is the "everything must implement .perl" rule?
15:18 moritz_ or is there no such rule?
15:20 moritz_ for example, does `eval $closure.perl' has to work?
15:21 TimToady well, it might just give you a bunch of JITted code... :)
15:22 moritz_ is that a "perlish representation", to quote S02?
15:22 TimToady companies want their security-through-licensed-obscurity...
15:22 TimToady but I think reasonable efforts should be made to provide .perl where possible
15:23 TimToady and that includes closures generally
15:24 moritz_ which leads us to the question: how can we reference an anonymous lexical scope?
15:25 moritz_ my $x; { # variable definitions here; $x = sub { ... }; # other stuff here }; say $x.perl
15:25 TimToady how does pugs do it?
15:26 moritz_ TimToady: it emits a bunch of YAML AST, iirc
15:26 moritz_ pugs: my $x = sub { 1; } say $x.perl
15:26 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected "say"␤    expecting operator␤    at /tmp/LjY0C9q9jb line 1, column 20␤]
15:26 moritz_ pugs: my $x = sub { 1; }; say $x.perl
15:26 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[\sub :(@_) "$_" := "Scalar" #<Scalar:0xb7b6897d>␤          "@_" := "Array" #<Array:0xb7b68975>␤          "&?ROUTINE" := "Sub" #<Sub:0xb7a8a539>␤          "&?BLOCK" := "Sub" #<Sub:0xb7a8a539> {"$_" := "Scalar" #<Scalar:0xb7aed15d>␤                                                "@...
15:27 TimToady that's Perl, not YAML
15:28 TimToady this is, I suspect, a good place to follow the lead of pugs
15:28 moritz_ pugs: my $x = sub { 1; }; eval $x.perl; say "still here"
15:28 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[still here␤]
15:29 moritz_ so you can actually write code like that in Perl 6?
15:29 * moritz_ shudders
15:29 TimToady well, applying := to a "" is probably illegal really...
15:30 moritz_ I mean I'm quite sure that whatever $closure.perl emits, it won't be all that pretty...
15:30 TimToady actually, I think that's spittout out Haskell there maybe
15:31 TimToady *spitting out
15:31 TimToady not awake enough yet to see straight
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15:32 TimToady but anyway, the pugs notion was that everything just desugars down to primitives, so .perl might give  you the primitives, but it still has the same meaning
15:34 TimToady we probably have to keep some kind of representation like that around internally anyway if we want auto-optimizing/pessimizing jit alternatives
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15:35 TimToady or at least you have to keep a fully pessimized version around to fall back on if the optimized version's preconditions are violated
15:36 moritz_ that's the classical optimization for dynamic languages, yes
15:36 TimToady but that sort of all-or-nothing view reminds me of source filters somehow
15:36 TimToady so it's probably better to keep the semantic representation and re-emit
15:38 moritz_ otoh, do we want to eval($stuff.perl) a clone of $stuff? if so, it would just have to emit something like do { # variables here; sub { ... } } to create a new closure that's tied to a differenc lexical pad
15:38 moritz_ just like eval $ordinary_object.perl will not return the same object, but a clone
15:38 moritz_ s/a clone of $stuff/to be a clone of $stuff/
15:40 TimToady well, maybe it depends on whether you're asking for .perl of the continuation or not... :/
15:41 [particle] VAR($x).perl
15:41 TimToady but certainly something that references lvalues can't work outside the referential scope of them
15:41 TimToady not without ipc that communicates back to the original machine  :)
15:44 TimToady so basically we're talking about a universal naming scheme for anonymous values at that point...
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15:44 moritz_ and if we want and need something like that
15:44 TimToady which is not terribly practical unless you really need relocatable code
15:45 moritz_ it feels a bit stupid to invent a naming scheme for something that might be intentionally anonymous
15:45 [particle] sounds like perl 6.1 or perl 7
15:45 TimToady I don't know Perl 6 will end up with, but Perl 7 will be fought with sticks and stones...
15:46 moritz_ luckly we mostly agreed on not writing perl 7 ;-)
15:47 TimToady it's probably just something to bear in mind for now, but in generally wrapping up code has to wrap up its entire visible state, and that's not terribly practical
15:47 TimToady *general
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15:52 TimToady so I don't know if we can mandate .perl on everything easily; what we *could* say is that the AST for a comp_unit must be kept around by default unless explicitly discarded
15:53 TimToady and then a closure's .perl can be emitted assuming that information, maybe
15:53 TimToady not sure how cloning fits into all that though
15:53 TimToady the continuations tend to sneak back in
15:53 moritz_ so basically eval($stuff.perl) would deep clone $stuff for normal objects, and only half-deep for closures?
15:54 moritz_ (or even shallow)
15:54 [particle] *hip-deep
15:54 moritz_ ;)
15:54 TimToady I'm not an expert on these things, and it feels PhDish
15:55 TimToady I've already earned enough of those with Perl 6... :)
15:55 [particle] in sigils, bolt-ons, and other topics
15:56 [particle] oh, wait, those are perl 5 :)
15:56 * [particle] misparsed
15:57 * zamanfou is now away: In the rain my tears are forever lost.
16:02 justatheory joined #perl6
16:14 mofino zamanfou, that's a pretty emo away message
16:14 mofino geez, now I'm depressed.
16:14 mofino ;)
16:15 moritz_ independently of *how* it is, we don't want to know anyway
16:16 TimToady it seems a bit antisocial to put away messages on a channel you're just lurking on...
16:16 moritz_ but now (s)he is away anyway, and won't read what we say
16:17 TimToady well, I was just wondering if a mild kick was in order
16:17 mofino mild?
16:17 moritz_ maybe
16:17 moritz_ mofino: no /kickban
16:18 TimToady well, our ban table is full, so not on the table :)
16:18 mofino wow 50 bans
16:19 TimToady but I wasn't suggesting that
16:19 moritz_ maybe you could also lift some old bans, in the hope that they aren't necessary anymore, and to be able to intervene when it's really needed
16:19 mofino aye
16:19 mofino i never understood old bans
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17:17 * araujo greets TimToady
17:42 [particle]1 joined #perl6
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17:50 mofino haha @one.hand.on.mouse...
17:50 mofino ahh, people troll right down to their domain, excellent.
17:55 * hercynium wonders how he can set his hostname to @one.hand.on.mouse.com...
17:56 * hercynium used to have the email address... prozac-for-breakfast@cheerful.com
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18:50 pmurias TimToady: how is the autolexer implemented? (i have to make it preserve grammar modifications and don't really understand it)
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19:03 ruoso Good Afternoon!
19:04 ruoso pmurias, we need to start supporting the language constructs
19:04 ruoso if, while, for, gather, take etc
19:05 moritz_ you want to implement them in smop?why?
19:05 moritz_ I mean if and while can perfectly done in C
19:05 moritz_ and if smop is a runtime library, not a VM..
19:07 ruoso moritz_, if we do it in C we're going to recurse in the C stack
19:08 moritz_ if and while don't need a stack, do they?
19:08 ruoso they do...
19:08 ruoso they even need a lexical pad
19:08 ruoso and you also need to be able yeld the continuation in a gather/take construct
19:09 ruoso speaking of which...
19:09 ruoso one thing that isn't clear to me is how ==> is going to affect the invocation...
19:11 pmurias ruoso: good evening
19:11 ruoso pmurias, :P
19:12 pmurias moritz_: smop is sort of a vm
19:12 pmurias ruoso: if and while don't need a c stack
19:13 ruoso pmurias, they need a Perl stack
19:15 pmurias we could to an if as &if(cond,&iftrue,&else)
19:15 pmurias s/to/do/
19:16 ruoso that's how I planed to do...
19:17 ruoso implement each of this constructs as standard objects
19:17 pmurias is Frame.back tested anywhere?
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19:22 ruoso pmurias, not really...
19:22 ruoso in fact... Frame.back is implementation specific
19:22 ruoso the public interpreter API is just has_next, next, eval
19:23 pugs_svn r21655 | pmurias++ | [smop]
19:23 pugs_svn r21655 | pmurias++ | expanded 21_code.p6
19:23 pugs_svn r21655 | pmurias++ | the RI is set in Frame.clone
19:23 pmurias SLIME Frames are mostly implementation specific
19:27 pmurias ruoso: how should the method to get the SLIME Frame from a Code be called?
19:34 pmurias ruoso: is sub {...}.SLIME_FRAME ok?
19:36 lleksah joined #perl6
19:36 pmurias btw have you thought of testing smop's test suit coverage?
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19:48 ruoso pmurias, .continuation()?
19:49 pmurias ruoso: it's meant to be used only for testing SLIME
19:49 ruoso ah... in this case .SLIME_FRAME si ok...
19:55 pugs_svn r21656 | pmurias++ | [smop] assingment via = works
19:56 pmurias ruoso: and what do you thing about testing test coverage?
19:57 ruoso pmurias, that's something that should be done at some time...
19:58 * ruoso having a weird week... almost no work done... (probably related to the fact that he started building his house)
19:58 * ruoso home &
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20:28 dolmen rakudo: class Foo; class Foo; class Foo;
20:28 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Class 'Foo' already registered!␤current instr.: '!keyword_class' pc 11881 (src/gen_builtins.pir:7565)␤]
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20:52 pugs_svn r21657 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] finished up angle bracket syntax tests (added 21 tests)
20:59 Auzon TimToady: STD.pm has trouble with /<*foo+>/ and similar patterns (S05:1459). t/spec/S05-metasyntax/angle-brackets.t demonstrates several issues.
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22:40 pugs_svn r21658 | moritz++ | [spec] fixed file propos of range.t
22:41 pugs_svn r21659 | moritz++ | [spec] more svn props fixes
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22:43 ruoso Good Evening!
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23:09 ruoso pmurias, how hard would it be to add support for named arguments in sm0p?
23:09 ruoso s/sm0p/use v6 blocks/
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23:21 pugs_svn r21660 | ruoso++ | [smop] Created the attribute test, now we need named arguments in use v6 blocks
23:22 ruoso pmurias, could you please take a look at test/22... we would need the commented part to be compiled as named arguments to that call...
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23:35 pugs_svn r21661 | lwall++ | [STD] now parses enum declarators
23:35 pugs_svn r21661 | lwall++ | [STD] now parses <*...> as containing regex (Auzon++)
23:35 pugs_svn r21661 | lwall++ | [STD] now parses <~~0> in addition to <~~foo>
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23:46 pmurias ruoso: it shouldn't be very hard, elf ast is broken in this regard, but it can be worked around
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