Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-08-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:31 TimToady ruoso: "These variables are compile-time aliases to $+! and $+/"
00:31 TimToady no, they can't be
00:31 ruoso what's the difference?
00:31 TimToady $+ is short fot $CALLER:: and excludes the one in the current scope
00:32 TimToady $+! can only refer to one of your caller's $! variables
00:32 TimToady and since $! is defined in every scope, it's always the first caller
00:32 ruoso but when you set $! it propagates to the caller,
00:32 TimToady no
00:33 * ruoso missed something...
00:33 TimToady more likely, fail() sets CALLER::CALLER::<$!>
00:33 TimToady if you want to set your caller's $! directly, you must set $+!
00:34 ruoso hm... I think I got it...
00:34 TimToady the whole point of giving each scope it's own copy of these variables is to keep them straight; there can be no aliasing
00:35 TimToady many of P5's problems stem from too many routines trying to deal with global $_ and $!
00:36 TimToady anyway, context vars never use the + in their own scope, but just the bare variable
00:37 ruoso and functions that read by line lookup $+/ to see the contextual setting for that variable
00:37 TimToady which is especially important since the rw-ness differs from $foo and $+foo
00:37 * araujo greets TimToady
00:40 TimToady ruoso: I don't follow that last idea
00:41 * TimToady greets araujo right back
00:41 araujo :-]
00:42 * ruoso confusing $/ meaning...
00:42 ruoso but anyway...
00:42 ruoso a regex call sets $+/ which is then available in the caller...
00:43 ruoso the same way that happens with $!
00:44 TimToady yes
00:49 TimToady bbl & # dinner
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00:59 ruoso TimToady, do every block define $! and $/? or are just Routines that define them?
01:01 ruoso pugs: { my $a = "foo"; { $a ~~ /o/ }; say $/ };
01:01 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/perl5/​Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib';␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/third-party/Parse-Yapp/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runti...
01:03 ruoso rakudo: { my $a = "foo"; { $a ~~ /o/ }; say $/ };
01:03 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in get_string()␤current instr.: 'print' pc 12259 (src/gen_builtins.pir:7802)␤]
01:03 audreyt pugs: { my $a = "foo"; { $a ~~ m:P5/o/ }; say $/ }
01:03 ruoso rakudo: { my $a = "foo"; { $a ~~ /o/; say $/ }; };
01:03 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[o␤]
01:03 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[o␤]
01:04 ruoso so it seems that $/ is defined by routines and not by every code
01:04 ruoso so CALLER is not simply each code... but each routine
01:06 audreyt sub f { if 1 { g() } }
01:06 audreyt for &g, the caller is f, not the if block, afaik.
01:07 ruoso that actually makes things much more complicated
01:07 audreyt what you have in mind is context()
01:08 audreyt see S06:2113, S06:1958
01:08 audreyt caller() is a filtered context, so to speak.
01:08 audreyt it discard the non-routine parts
01:08 audreyt does that make things easier?
01:09 ruoso yeah... it does...
01:09 ruoso but maybe we should store the enclosing routine for each context
01:10 audreyt *nod*
01:10 audreyt bbiab
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03:46 whereiskurt ?eval say "What does TimToady eat for dinner? :-)"
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05:18 gaal ruoso: you were looking at Signature objects? Perl6::Signature on cpan
05:18 lambdabot gaal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:18 gaal ported from pugs
05:18 gaal more or less
05:19 gaal and nothingmuch++ and clkao++ have insane glue to make those actually available as sub declarations in perl5
05:20 gaal hmmm though apparently that's not on cpan yet?
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06:42 audreyt it's http://code2.0beta.co.uk/moos​e/svn/Perl6-Signature/trunk/
06:42 lambdabot Title: Revision 5096: /Perl6-Signature/trunk
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07:14 nothingmuch gaal: in moose + jifty repos I think
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08:09 pugs_svn r21789 | lwall++ | [STD vs t] more Mutually Assured Construction
08:11 audreyt *lol*
08:36 clkao gaal: perl6::declare
08:36 clkao i was expecting more craziness for yapceu but nothingmuch is bailing out
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08:45 masak hm, is there an 'is inline' trait on subs?
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08:57 audreyt Yes, S06:1681
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09:00 masak audreyt: thanks
09:10 pugs_svn r21790 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Lexer: "\d123" must now be written as "\c123" according to S02 v133.
09:13 dduncan on that note, what word does the 'c' refer to?
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09:14 dduncan eg, how is a c for base-10 or decimal self-documenting?
09:14 dduncan or is it deCimal?
09:14 ludan hi
09:15 Tene hi ludan
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09:20 Patterner c)haracter?
09:21 masak feels like a category error next to \b, \x and \o, in that case
09:34 gaal Moose!
09:38 speckbot r14571 | audreyt++ | * S02: A few more C<...> an C<<...>> blocks, Contributed by John M. Dlugosz++.
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09:44 speckbot r14572 | audreyt++ | * Typo spotted by John M. Dlugosz++:
09:44 speckbot r14572 | audreyt++ |
09:44 speckbot r14572 | audreyt++ |       method close is export () { ... }  # Wrong
09:44 speckbot r14572 | audreyt++ |       method close () is export { ... }  # Right
09:53 audreyt it means we've moved from decimal to centimal ;)
09:55 masak 100t!
10:07 * ruoso work &
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10:43 gaal For any base, you're always at base 10. Except unary.
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10:57 audreyt_ gaal++ # That's true even for quater-imaginary bases
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11:53 avar audreyt++ # Yay, she's back!
11:53 lambdabot avar: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:54 avar lambdabot: @messages
11:54 lambdabot audreyt said 22h 17m 45s ago: http://community.haskell.org/~au​dreyt/re-engine-TRE-0.05.tar.gz # should build everywhere
11:54 avar Yeah I saw that, the OBJECT= stuff works but I'm a bit afraid of modifying the gettext stuff
11:54 avar still, I guess it's needed, win32 doesn't have libint.h or whatever that gnu stuff was
12:03 gaal So... still no luck with the smoke. Once a single test hits the timeout, subsequent ones all time out.
12:04 gaal I've added a ghetto "killall pugs" when the test doesn't terminate on time (getting the pid of the real bad pugs is tricky, as it's created deep in the harness)
12:05 gaal anyone know a portable way to get all my child pids + their $*PROGRAM_NAMEs?
12:07 ruoso gaal, I'm pretty sure there isn't one
12:07 ruoso except for libraries that abstract different implementations
12:09 * gaal looks at the plumbing
12:13 gaal beh, we'd need a patch to Straps.pm:651 to record the pid
12:15 gaal straps uses global filehandles, joy :/
12:16 gaal Maybe it's time for T::T::Model to use TAP::Parser... let's see if that's any better.
12:18 * gaal growls. Straps calls itself obsolete and directs us to TAP::Parser,, but TAP::Parser doesn't come with something that actually runs a test.
12:19 avar gaal: how do you make the kids? fork?
12:20 gaal open |
12:20 avar the only portable way is making a record when you make the kids
12:20 avar ew
12:20 gaal which returns a pid, iirc
12:20 gaal open | is actually pretty portable.
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13:35 gbacon in the Pugs build, are the profiling libraries strictly necessary?
13:36 gbacon INSTALL talks about a prof make target, but is that not required?
13:37 gaal I doubt they're required.
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13:38 gaal But I recommend trying :)
13:38 audreyt "make prof" should now do a ./Setup configure -p --user
13:38 audreyt and then ./Setup build
13:38 audreyt feel free to hack it in. :)
13:39 audreyt gbacon: do you have a commit bit?
13:43 masak how do I get the name of the Role that results from a <=> or a cmp?
13:44 masak perl6: say (3 <=> 5).WHAT
13:44 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Order␤]
13:44 p6eval ..elf 21790, pugs: OUTPUT[Int␤]
13:44 masak rakudo gives Order, but I'd like to get "Increasing" somehow
13:47 masak ah, .perl
13:47 masak perl6: say (3 <=> 5).perl
13:47 gbacon audreyt: yes!
13:47 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Order::Increase␤]
13:47 p6eval ..elf 21790, pugs: OUTPUT[-1␤]
13:48 gbacon audreyt: right, but running perl Makefile.PL runs cabal install -p
13:48 audreyt yes, "just in case"
13:48 audreyt a better way would be when you "make prof"
13:49 audreyt go back and detect and re-build the libraries taht needs to be profiled
13:49 audreyt try hacking Makefile.PL line 167ish and add a "pugs-prof" target?
13:49 audreyt and you can take off the default -p in Makefile.PL
13:49 audreyt makes sense?
13:50 * gbacon nods
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13:51 gbacon audreyt: I dug through the svn logs, but I'm still very curious as to how you fixed the "invalid grammar category" error that we were getting when trying to build the prelude
13:53 pasteling "rhr" at 65.94.11.172 pasted "pugs' Makefile.PL fails" (44 lines, 2.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/31806
13:53 rhr is anyone else getting this error?
13:59 gbacon rhr: you might try installing cabal-install by hand
14:00 rhr I tried that, it doesn't help :(
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14:07 audreyt rhr: oy.
14:07 audreyt if you can, rm -rf ~/.cabal and ~/.ghc and perl Makefile.PL again
14:07 audreyt most likely though, "ghc-pkg unregister --user zlib" would be sufficient.
14:07 audreyt (or "ghc-pkg unregister zlib")
14:08 audreyt sorry for being mostly away... preparing for a job interview coming up in 1.5 hours
14:11 rhr audreyt: I have a working pugs from a few days ago, so no hurry :)
14:11 audreyt okies :)
14:19 rhr audreyt: the rm method worked, thanks.  have a good interview!
14:19 audreyt thanks!
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15:40 gnuvince @seen audreyt
15:40 lambdabot audreyt is in #xmonad, #ghc, #haskell and #perl6. I last heard audreyt speak 1h 21m 8s ago.
15:47 audreyt yes?
15:47 gbacon audreyt: good interview?
15:48 [particle]1 i'm expecting her to reply, "actually, i'm in it now :)"
15:49 audreyt actually I'm in it now.
15:49 [particle] :P
15:50 gnuvince audreyt: nothing, I was just very happy to see you were back when I read that blog post of yours last week.
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17:42 pmurias ruoso: hi
17:42 lambdabot pmurias: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:43 ruoso hi pmurias
17:44 pmurias ruoso: how long does the SMOP talk take you?
17:44 ruoso it took me a little more than half an hour
17:47 gbacon audreyt: would you prefer to keep profiling enabled in the default pugs build?
17:47 audreyt gbacon: no, I don't think so
17:47 audreyt esp. on some platform prof and thread are mut. excl.
17:47 audreyt and I'd much rather thread than prof
17:48 pmurias ruoso: did anyone ask about polymorphic eval? ;)
17:50 ruoso pmurias, not really.. .but the audience was not as qualified as I would expect in yapc::eu
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17:53 pmurias i'll read a bit about Glib or choose a different example
17:53 audreyt yay I got the job. :) see you tomorrow *wave*
17:54 pmurias *wave*
18:06 [particle]1 congrats audreyt
18:08 pugs_svn r21791 | gbacon++ | Add prof make target for profiling build.
18:29 pmurias ruoso: got a documentation pointer to how glib object look like?
18:30 ruoso in terms of data strucutre?
18:30 ruoso no, I don't...
18:30 pmurias i'll edit it out then
18:32 pmurias the SMOP talk will be my first talk, so any advice is appreciated ;)
18:37 ruoso ;)
18:37 pmurias getting cat food&
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19:14 pugs_svn r21792 | lwall++ | [STD] let EXPR parse term after infix with a rule specified by the infix op
19:14 pugs_svn r21792 | lwall++ |     (considered other kludges but this preserves 1-pass parsing)
19:14 pugs_svn r21792 | lwall++ |     switch , parsing to using this mechanism plus <nulltermish>
19:14 pugs_svn r21792 | lwall++ |     fix .= parsing by forcing <dottyop> as next term
19:14 pugs_svn r21792 | lwall++ | [pre_post.t] can't leave the space out between "is Foo" and the class block
19:14 pugs_svn r21792 | lwall++ |      or it is interpreted as an arg to the Foo pseudo-adverb
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19:20 pmurias mncharity: hi
19:26 mncharity hi pmurias
19:32 pmurias mncharity:  i haven't seperated EmitSM0P yet, as it will be obsoleted soon
19:33 * mncharity puzzled ("seperated EmitSM0P"?), but *nod*
19:34 mncharity I'm exploring getting STD's tryfile to accept the elf sources.
19:35 pmurias separated, sorry
19:38 pmurias mncharity: that should force removing =~
19:38 mncharity pmurias: wasn't the spelling... I just don't know, or have forgotten, what EmitSMOP is being separated from, and with what objective.
19:39 pmurias from elfX into elfish/smop
19:39 mncharity re =~ ...  do you know if STD will tolerate them if it sees an explicit =~ definition?
19:39 pmurias so it could be integrated into elf
19:39 pmurias mncharity: =~ is and explicit error
19:39 pmurias s/and/an
19:40 mncharity :(  ah well.  maybe =~~ ...
19:41 pmurias you now my attitude towards =~
19:41 pmurias * know
19:42 ruoso pmurias, when you finish the slides you can add a second link to them in the wiki
19:45 pmurias ruoso: ok
19:46 pmurias ruoso: i'm currently thinking what to change
19:47 mncharity pmurias: re know, yes :)  will go away as part of merging in regex/p engine.
19:47 ruoso pmurias, you can always throw that slides away if you like to... ;)
19:48 pmurias i
19:48 pmurias 'm actually hoping to finish m0ld before YAPC::EU
19:48 pmurias Mold too
19:49 ruoso that would be very cool
19:50 ruoso pmurias, btw... have you seen the wiki page on lexical scopes?
19:52 TimToady mncharity: STD does not currently do anything with an infix:<foo> definition because pmurias got distracted  :)
19:53 TimToady mind you, m0ld is a fine thing to be distracted by...
19:56 mncharity lol
19:56 TimToady but STD is up to parsing 98.44% of t/, and several of the remaining errors have to do with not mutating the grammar on operator defs
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20:00 TimToady nap & # stayed up too late hacking last night...
20:02 mncharity re 98.44%, !!!   There's a Perl 6 project milestone of note.
20:03 TimToady .oO(still one percentile short of Ivory Soap) # rethunk
20:04 pmurias it might be that we need more cunning tests
20:06 mncharity more cunning tests++
20:09 mncharity hmm, might call it "accepting" instead of "parsing"?  I always find it very hard to tell if parses are correct until they are used, running, and passing tests.
20:10 mncharity re "Ivory Soap", their line is n % "pure".  Where "pure" is without meaning.  So you could feel free to declare STD's purity to be 99.99999%.
20:11 pmurias my limited experience with pixie is that the resulting AST is bug-riden, but it's hardly resonable to expect untested things to be correct
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20:14 mncharity "it's hardly resonable to expect untested things to be correct",  ooooo, I like that quote.  Nice alternative to "if it hasn't been tested, it doesn't work".
20:15 mncharity ah, pixie!  that's what I was looking for...
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20:36 pmurias mncharity: pixie is currently broken as STD remove a {*} per rule
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20:50 mncharity pmurias: np.  i'm going to try a STD_red like approach - getting the Match tree and groveling over it, rather than using make().
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21:00 gaal mncharity: moose!
21:01 pugs_svn r21793 | pmurias++ | [m0ld] calls with positionals only are translated to bytecode
21:02 pmurias mncharity: using make is better as you might want to start modifing the grammar at some point from the actions
21:07 pmurias otoh you should be able to convert from one approach to the other easily
21:09 mncharity gaal: moose :)
21:16 mncharity pmurias: *nod*.  at least for now, with a semi-static grammar, the advantage of greater debuggability outweighs future flexibility.
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21:43 pugs_svn r21794 | pmurias++ | [m0ld] named arguments
21:51 gbacon transparency++
22:03 mncharity pmurias: before I start exploring, any thoughts on what "Unable to parse class definition at ../../misc/elf/elf_g_src/EmitSimpleP5.pm line 946: ------>  expecting nibbler (alt 02)" means?  946 is end of file.
22:03 mncharity oh, and the =~ have all gone away. ;)
22:04 mncharity (haven't measured the performance hit yet :/ )
22:09 TimToady probably a runaway string
22:10 mncharity yep.  unescaped {  in "".
22:10 dduncan question: regarding base-10/decimal numeric literals, what word does the 'c' prefix stand for?  is it deCimal or something else?
22:10 TimToady admittedly could use a better message :)
22:10 TimToady your question was answered last night
22:10 TimToady but you vamoosed too soon :)
22:11 dduncan I'll check the logs ...
22:11 TimToady it's 'c' as in 'characgter'
22:11 TimToady we can't use \d because that already means something else in regex
22:12 TimToady and the idea is that you should be concentrating on producing the character, not on its radix
22:12 dduncan okay
22:12 TimToady on top of that, nobody should be using decimal for that anyway except in a few cases
22:13 TimToady but almost all the decimal characters people know are already better encoded some other way
22:13 TimToady \c9 == \t for instance
22:13 TimToady and unicode has pretty much settled on hex
22:13 dduncan now looking at the log, I saw the answer, and also the comment: feels like a category error next to \b, \x and \o, in that case
22:13 TimToady anyway, was just looking for a way to sneak in the decimal notation, and it turned out that current \c usage had holes in the right place
22:14 TimToady sure, but those are exceptional in not being base 10, and we have ten fingers
22:15 TimToady it just points out that you can't actually create the Perfect Language
22:15 dduncan indeed
22:15 pmurias gbacon: what did the transparency++ comment refer too?
22:15 dduncan but one can try
22:15 TimToady (as in the Search for the Perfect Language, Umberto Eco)
22:16 TimToady even trying has its dangers, if you don't understand the tradeoffs
22:16 gbacon pmurias: mncharity's "at least for now, with a semi-static grammar, the advantage of greater debuggability outweighs future flexibility."
22:16 TimToady and one of them in this case is the current cultural meaning of \d, which I don't wish to break
22:16 dduncan generally you just want to make the language good for the task its intended for
22:17 dduncan I'm not arguing for anything different than what you did
22:17 TimToady and in that larger scheme of things, I doubt people will be using \c that often
22:17 TimToady and when they do, it'll more often be \c[LINE FEED]
22:17 TimToady or \cG
22:18 TimToady and every now and then \c[13,10]
22:18 dduncan as for now, I'm trying to use Moose for the first time, and am learning how it is, and isn't like Perl 6 or Perl 5
22:18 pugs_svn r21795 | pmurias++ | [smop] hand compiled the m0ld example from the wiki and added as test
22:19 TimToady gotta commute, bbiab &
22:19 pmurias gotta sleep, bbiab& ;)
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23:18 pugs_svn r21796 | putter++ | [elf_g] STD's src/perl6/tryfile r21792 now accepts the elf sources (no parse errors are reported).
23:18 pugs_svn r21796 | putter++ | One acceptable regression - t/xx-uncategorized/deref_doesnt.t now fails differently.
23:28 mncharity Next steps are () Get a Match tree dump from STD (in the same format as STD_red_run --format=p5a).  STD_blue?  () New IRx1_FromAST2. <> Elf bootstraps on STD_blue.  Then... elf accepting, running, STD.  Yielding bootstrapped front-end.
23:28 mncharity g'night all &
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