Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-08-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:02 cognominal_ sln  : this not pir but sonething that would be nice would be able to have different actions files for a given grammar.pg. Because one may want to compile source code or just beautify it. That would imply modify the code of dev/mk_processor_shell.pl or and/or of the called libraries
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00:35 ruoso @tell pmurias, I think at some point we could publish it to CPAN, but I'm not sure on how to do it...
00:35 lambdabot Consider it noted.
00:36 ruoso is the irc log down, or is it just me?
00:36 lambdabot ruoso: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:05 ruoso moritz_, are you around?
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01:25 pugs_svn r21903 | ruoso++ | [smop] first implementation of the default block signature bind code. It does not work yet, but is a great progress anyway.
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04:32 pugs_svn r21904 | lwall++ | [STD] speed up parser by 33% by using P5 regex instead of TRE for ltm backoff matches
04:34 cognominal_ ltm?
04:34 audreyt for downloading a pugs tarball, http://git.pugscode.org/ now provides a "download" link
04:34 lambdabot Title: audreyt's pugs at master — GitHub
04:34 Auzon cognominal_: ltm is longest token matching
04:35 cognominal_ there is a few TLAs that  I have trouble to get in my head :(
04:36 Auzon yeah, that one is pretty specific. I only recognized it since I heard a lot of pain being spent in getting LTM to work correctly :)
04:39 cognominal_ ...and github is a nice mac interface to see changes
04:40 cognominal_ I meant gitnub!!
04:48 pugs_svn r21905 | lwall++ | [Cursor] buglet from incomplete transition on semantics
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06:41 dduncan so is Pugs on Git now, or is that GitHub thing just a mirror?
06:42 dduncan I mean, which is the official repository now?
06:43 dduncan (I haven't resynced in months, so sort of out of the loop ... svn/svk has been more trouble on my system lately)
06:43 dduncan my current work is just my own projects atm, which use Git
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07:14 audreyt it's just a mirror
07:14 audreyt svn is still official
07:14 audreyt but you can track/clone with git now
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07:42 dduncan can I push commits using git too and have those forward to the official repo?
07:44 dduncan anyway, if people can agree, I suggest putting the official version on git
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07:45 dduncan in some respects I think doing so would make it easier for people to contribute, since git is much simpler to install and its repositories seem more reliable and compact
07:47 dduncan I'm not specifically recommending that host, just the tool chain
07:49 fullermd People?  Agree on a version control system?  Sure, that should be no problem...   :p
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07:52 dduncan I don't mean everyone, just a critical mass
07:53 dduncan or alternately just one or a few of the right individuals
07:54 Alias_ git is not easier
07:54 Alias_ git is easier to be disconnected with, and to do work without permission of others
07:54 Alias_ Working WITH full trust on a common codebase is harder
07:55 dduncan just installing the program I found to be easier
07:55 Alias_ apt-get install ...
07:55 Alias_ Anyways, gotta pack
07:55 Alias_ Leaving hotel in 5 minutes
07:56 fullermd There's a really bad joke in there somewhere about "if you used git" and "packing"...
07:56 dduncan its written in C and is self-contained
07:57 dduncan while using the svn stack needed a number of other non-trivial prerequisites
07:57 dduncan with git I could just download the tarball, and do configure, make, make test, make install
08:01 dduncan as for the working with trust thing, that's a social issue not a tool issue
08:05 Alias_ sure it's a tool issue
08:05 Alias_ Now I need to make contortions in order to push to the main repository
08:05 Alias_ I can't just go "commit"
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08:10 Alias_ ok, heading to hackathon
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09:18 pmurias ruoso: hi
09:22 pmurias ruoso: re CPAN I have never released anything on it yet (but i'm intrested in trying), the biggest problem i think is that there are a lot of stuff we used that are not CPANed yet like STD and elf
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09:38 ruoso pmurias, indeed.. the dependencies are the most problematic issue
09:44 pmurias ruoso: from the reaction of the audience at my talk i fear that getting perl5 stackless won't be easy
09:50 pmurias ruoso: are you blocking on anything now?
09:50 ruoso pmurias, how was the talk?
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09:53 ruoso pmurias, I'm trying to implement the default block signature
09:53 ruoso but I'm getting "reading empty register 21"
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10:00 ruoso pmurias, re p5 stackless: nothingmuch was pretty much confident that it is possible... I had talked with p5p people about it, and they were very much hopeless too
10:00 ruoso but... in nothingmuch we trust ;)
10:02 nothingmuch was I? ;-)
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10:02 pmurias (network cabel got loose)
10:03 nothingmuch re stackless p5:
10:03 nothingmuch it'd need fairly major refactoring of pp*
10:03 nothingmuch i don't htink it's easy
10:03 nothingmuch or even possible in the short term
10:03 nothingmuch what i do think is that it's possible to make it compatible
10:04 nothingmuch basically #ifdefs to make vTHX delimitable
10:04 pmurias ruoso: i run out of slides during the talk and had to demonstrate how smop work now, but it wasn't as bad as i feared, and i can't really tell how other people liked it
10:04 nothingmuch and a runops that fiddles PL_stack_base on every op
10:04 nothingmuch setting it up correctly
10:04 nothingmuch i think that's enough but it's going to be veeery slow and clunky
10:05 pmurias we can always embed kurilla ;)
10:05 pmurias * kurila
10:05 nothingmuch to make this change actually useful it will probably require creating static variants of all the perl opcodes
10:05 nothingmuch that take register args
10:05 nothingmuch and use an arity table
10:06 nothingmuch basically converting things from push/enter to eval/apply
10:06 nothingmuch none of this is possible in the short term though, IMHO
10:07 ruoso but even if p5 can't get stackless... as long as we have a unique smop instance for each runops recursion... I think we're fine...
10:07 nothingmuch *nod*
10:07 nothingmuch anyway, back to real $work ;-)
10:08 nothingmuch oh
10:08 nothingmuch the llvm plan
10:08 nothingmuch in case anyone is interested:
10:08 nothingmuch building a statically compiled flattenning of an optree is only about 10% faster with llvmgcc
10:08 nothingmuch (baiscally hijacking a CV and upgrading it to an XSUB)
10:09 nothingmuch surprisingly with plain gcc it's actually 40% *slower* than runops
10:09 nothingmuch so bascially llvm is much smarter than gcc, but still not smart enough to make simple stack operation static
10:12 pmurias nothingmuch: the signature stuff you did with clkao was awesome
10:12 ruoso nothingmuch, llvm might be usefull in smop as soon as we have a bootstrapped interpreter...
10:13 * clkao appears in a puff or orange smoke
10:13 clkao nothingmuch: i am cleaning up my b changes and putting them into b::utils for the moment
10:13 ruoso I had this insight of building a type for each signature with the code that runs the BIND and the ACCEPTS code for that spefic signature...
10:13 nothingmuch clkao++
10:13 nothingmuch i'm working on making MXSD prophet ready =)
10:14 nothingmuch ruoso: "type" as in C struct?
10:14 ruoso nothingmuch, type as SMOP__Object type
10:14 nothingmuch ah
10:14 nothingmuch i thought you were talking about Data::Bind for a sec
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10:15 ruoso this type then holds jit compiled code for the bind and accepts for that specific signature
10:15 pmurias nothingmuch: re not smart enough, one can write custom optimisers for llvm you know, and i can't see why should't we use Perl 6 for them
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10:16 nothingmuch pmurias: the amount of effort I can invest in p5/llvm mashups is very limited
10:16 nothingmuch so writing an LLVM optimizer pass is beyond the scope currently
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10:17 nothingmuch currently I think it's much easier to approach this from the perl side
10:17 nothingmuch since the C code for the perl internals is so macro heavy
10:18 nothingmuch and relies on so mch implicit state
10:18 nothingmuch that even if I were writing a p5 specific LLVM pass it would probably be too hard
10:19 pmurias i should get round to reading that assembly tutorial, and trying to just save the C stack soon
10:31 pugs_svn r21906 | pmurias++ | [mold] an error is raised if a NULL is returned from a method call
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10:38 pmurias ruoso: i think the error is the "something returns a NULL"  scenario again, i should now be doing stuff i put off before the yapc, if something is definitly an mold error i'll do it now otherwise i'll get back to it later if it's not fixed by then
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12:17 pugs_svn r21907 | pmurias++ | [mold] the content of registers is printed after a NULL is returned from a method call
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14:09 pugs_svn r21908 | ruoso++ | [smop] prints current mold frame position when aborting.
14:23 pugs_svn r21909 | ruoso++ | [smop] some more diagnostic information on mold errors... few NULL-returns caught...
14:25 pugs_svn r21910 | ruoso++ | [smop] test/27 have a part of the test passing!
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14:40 pugs_svn r21911 | ruoso++ | [smop] native int implements infix:>
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15:03 pugs_svn r21912 | ruoso++ | [smop] test 27 almost passing... only thing to fix is an extra scalar that is getting on the way for some reason...
15:04 ruoso pmurias, if you have some time, could you please try to help me with test 27?
15:07 pugs_svn r21913 | ruoso++ | [smop] YAY! Default Block Signature Works!!!!!!!
15:08 ruoso pmurias, now we have another good example of a mold code
15:08 ruoso pmurias, and a very nice example on how slime and mold can coexist... take a look at test/27 and at src/smop_s1p_defaultblocksignature.sm0p
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15:32 pmurias ruoso: i had network problems, do you still need help?
15:32 ruoso fortunally, no... ;)
15:33 ruoso but take a look at test/27 and the defaultblocksignature implementation....
15:33 ruoso it's an even better use case for mold than the other...
15:36 ruoso and now we're ready to port Code to Mold
15:39 pugs_svn r21914 | pmurias++ | [smop] changed STORE to infix:<=> in test 27
15:41 pmurias i'll change use m0ld to q:m0ld "
15:41 pmurias s/"/{...}/
15:48 pmurias ruoso: you need m0ld {...} and sub {...} support?
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16:07 ruoso pmurias, q:m0ld has the advantage of allowing custom mold variable name
16:09 ruoso pmurias, I think sub-molds are probably going to be used by the s1p compiler
16:09 ruoso so I'm not sure we want to use it directly in m0ld
16:10 ruoso pmurias, one cool project now is the signature compiler
16:10 ruoso for s1p
16:11 ruoso we need to be able to compile a signature to a equivalent BIND and ACCEPTS code...
16:18 pmurias ruoso: i think we could implement the Signature in perl6
16:27 ruoso pmurias, the Signature high level type will be implemented in Perl 6 and compiled by s1p
16:28 ruoso but before that we need signatures to make other things work
16:28 ruoso and that we can compile to mold code for the BIND and ACCEPTS call
16:53 pmurias the default signature (*@_,*%_) is enough to make most things work
16:54 ruoso pmurias, in fact... we could have a smop_s1p_defaultroutinesignature type
16:55 ruoso just like defaultblocksignature
16:55 ruoso pmurias, want to take that to implement?
16:57 ruoso http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop_code_implementation
16:58 pmurias i'm switching to q:* now
16:58 ruoso pmurias, :)
17:01 ruoso pmurias, but do you think the modelling in the wiki for the code object is ok?
17:02 * ruoso shower &
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17:03 pmurias the default signature for subs is different (*@_,*%_)
17:06 pugs_svn r21915 | pmurias++ | [smop] switched use * blocks to q:*
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17:08 ruoso pmurias, yes... that is for routines in general...
17:12 pmurias and back should be set
17:12 pmurias but otherwise i think it's correct
17:17 pmurias i have some $workish things to finish so i'll try to do only blocking smop stuff for a couple of days
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20:32 pmurias @tell mncharity what do you think of releasing elf to CPAN?
20:32 lambdabot Consider it noted.
20:48 pugs_svn r21916 | pmurias++ | [smop] converted remaining STORE to assignment
20:49 rindolf Hi pmurias
20:54 pmurias rindolf: hi
20:54 rindolf pmurias: what's up?
20:54 rindolf pmurias: BTW, where are you from?
20:54 pmurias rindolf: Poland
20:54 rindolf pmurias: ah.
20:55 rindolf pmurias: my grandfather was Polish in origin.
20:55 pmurias rindolf: returned from YAPC::EU yesterday
20:55 rindolf pmurias: ah, any highlights?
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20:55 rindolf pmurias: and my grandmother was born in Vilnius.
20:58 pmurias rindolf: i gave my first talk
21:00 rindolf pmurias: how did it go?
21:00 pmurias dunno, i don't read people very well
21:01 rindolf pmurias: what was the talk about?
21:02 pmurias smop
21:02 pmurias rindolf: did you manage to compile it yet?
21:02 rindolf pmurias: I couldn't because it requires ruby-1.9.x
21:03 pmurias i'll try downporting it to ruby-1.8
21:03 rindolf pmurias: thanks.
21:05 pmurias rindolf: do you have ruby-1.9 in your distro?
21:06 rindolf pmurias: no.
21:08 pmurias the README seems to imply it's something more than a simple bug which caused the requirement, but i'll still try feebly
21:17 pmurias rindolf: no luck with that, there were some minor syntax issues i can change, but i don't know how to replace the String#force_encoding method
21:19 rindolf pmurias: I see.
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23:32 pugs_svn r21917 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] added some feed tasks to TASKS. Moved feed.t into spec, and added tests. (added 16 tests)
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