Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-08-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:10 meppl good night
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00:28 pugs_svn r21939 | stephenpollei++ | Auzon pointed out that previous commit did not delete old comment.t file
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01:56 ruoso Hi
01:56 lambdabot ruoso: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:56 ruoso @tell pmurias... I'd use the same licensing as perl...
01:56 lambdabot Consider it noted.
02:08 s1n1 is yapc::eu over yet? i've been trying to get ahold of pmichaud with no luck
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02:19 ruoso s1n, I think yapc::eu happened last weekend...
02:20 s1n ruoso: okay, thanks
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02:26 s1n is it bad form to add a test to spectest_regression if it's basically being entirely skipped?
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02:27 ruoso technically, that means it's not a regression...
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02:28 s1n yeah but it brings visibility to the tests, someone might go around doing unfudging tests
02:28 ruoso but I think the point of having a "regression" category is to see what is a regression and what is a misimplementation...
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02:31 s1n true, but there's already a ton of skips though
02:33 ruoso well... one could argue that the correct would be to move them out of "regression" then... but I think you should take a more relevant opinion... ;)
02:34 pmichaud spectest_regression should contain those test files for which we have passing tests and no (fudged) failing tests
02:35 pmichaud a file which is being entirely skipped probably doesn't belong in spectest_regression
02:35 s1n pmichaud: i can agree, but there are some with large portions being skipped already, hence my curiousity
02:35 pmichaud the difference is "large portions skipped" versus "entirely skipped"
02:36 s1n pmichaud: what's the threshold then? say there are 10 tests, how many are the minimum passing tests unfudged
02:36 pmichaud 1.
02:37 s1n so if a single passing test exists in a sea of fudged tests, then it's good to add?
02:37 pmichaud it's fine with me, yes.
02:37 s1n okay, that answers my question, thanks
02:40 pugs_svn r21940 | s1n++ | [spec] added the missing fudges so perhaps for use with the autounfudge tool
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03:38 pugs_svn r21941 | s1n++ | [spec] added missing fudges, necessary for use with the autounfudge tool
04:10 pugs_svn r21942 | pmichaud++ | Rakudo doesn't quite handle a plain 'proto' yet, so fudge it out here
04:10 pugs_svn r21942 | pmichaud++ | to get spectest_regression passing again.
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05:36 pugs_svn r21943 | stephenpollei++ | added rakudo fudge , wrapped a few tests in oppsFIXME that need to be wrapped in eval to be isolated
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07:08 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, elf: etc.) (or perl6: for all) | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
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08:06 pmurias ruoso: hi
08:12 pmurias ruoso: i'm thinking of getting rid of the boilerplate in RI creation by having them in a seperate sublanguage which would get preproccesed to C
08:23 pugs_svn r21944 | pmurias++ | [smop] removed old and irrelevant stuff from misc added 2 example how the new DSL for RI's might look like
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10:03 ruoso pmurias, feels like XS ;) but that's ok
10:05 ruoso pmurias, how do I solve "FATALERROR cabal is not found" in Debian Lenny?
10:06 pmurias ruoso: you need to install cabal
10:06 pmurias it's in third-party/Cabal in the pugs repo of many places
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10:11 pmurias s/of many places/and in other places/
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10:14 pmurias ruoso: are you using out of tree builds with cmake, that is mkdir build;cd build;cmake ..;make
10:25 pmurias btw. both auto of tree and in-tree builds work here
10:26 pmurias cycling&
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13:48 clintongormley heya all - am i correct in my thinking that Roles are for classes, while Mixins are for instances?
13:49 Juerd Not really.
13:49 clintongormley hmm must have misheard
13:49 clintongormley i thought jonathan said that at YAPC
13:49 Juerd If I understand it correctly, mixins are for classes, whereas roles are for either classes or instances.
13:49 clintongormley oh really? :)
13:50 clintongormley the confusion continues...
13:50 Juerd The big difference however is in how clashes are handled. With mixins, one mixin wins. With roles, the class gets to decide which role gets precedence - if it doesn't, that's an error. So you don't get those annoying surprises when two roles both implement a method with the same name.
13:50 clintongormley ok - thanks juerd
13:51 Juerd And you can choose to use a different method name to resolve it.
13:51 clintongormley many thanks
13:51 Juerd In many cases, multiple inheritance, mixins, and roles can be used to achieve the same goals, but roles really hurt the least eventually.
13:52 Juerd And of course, being able to add a role to an instance really rocks.
13:53 Juerd my HTTP::Download $foo .= new;
13:53 Juerd $foo does HTTP::Download::Resume;
13:54 Juerd In Perl 5 ::Resume would be a subclass probably, but that sucks if you also want to add ::DisplayProgress :)
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13:56 pmurias do we have Mixins in Perl 6?
13:57 Juerd Nafaik.
13:58 pmurias good
13:58 Juerd Would there be any use for mixins, if you already have roles?
13:58 Juerd Roles do everythings mixins do, plus more :)
13:58 pmurias s/plus more/minus some/
13:58 Juerd Oh?
13:58 pmurias roles do composition more restrictively
13:59 Juerd I see that as a feature.
13:59 pmurias food&
13:59 Juerd Enjoy
13:59 pmichaud yes, perl 6 has mixins
13:59 pmichaud see 'but'
14:00 pmichaud and 'does'
14:00 pmichaud er, infix:<does>
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14:01 pmichaud there's not a Mixin type, correct
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14:16 pmurias pmichaud: infix:<does> and infix:<but> is more mixing in than mixings
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14:22 pmurias ruoso: any comments before I start implementing my XS like RI preprocessor?
14:23 ruoso I think it's ok...
14:23 ruoso this file will then be passed through sm0p.pl, right?
14:24 ruoso so you can have q:p6, q:sm0p and q:m0ld... right?
14:25 pmurias yes
14:26 pmurias it's q:p6-sm0p and q:p6-m0ld now
14:26 ruoso yeah... I saw it...
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14:30 ruoso pmurias, even after ./Setup install of the Cabal in the pugs repo it still complains about cabal not being found...
14:30 ruoso do I need to do anything special?
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14:31 pmurias ruoso: hmm
14:31 pmurias you have a cabal in your path?
14:31 ruoso no
14:32 ruoso and ./Setup install doesn't seem to have installed any
14:32 pmurias sorry it's actuall cabal-install
14:32 pmurias * actually
14:33 ruoso it doesn't recognize cabal-install
14:35 pmurias i mean you have to install cabal-install too
14:35 ruoso ah...
14:36 pugs_svn r21945 | pmurias++ | [smop] improved the error messages when cabal is missing
14:39 pmurias ruoso: you have a recently build pugs?
14:39 ruoso no
14:40 pugs_svn r21946 | pmurias++ | [smop] cmake searches for cabal in ~/.cabal/bin too
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14:41 pmurias pugs is not required, yet ;)
14:41 ruoso pmurias, cabal-install complains about a missing zlib... but I can't find any debian package to match that...
14:41 * ruoso has the standard C zlib headers and libs installed, of course...
14:43 * pmurias thinks of dropping the dependency on cabal-install
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14:44 pmurias ruoso: if you run perl Makefile.PL for pugs it should just install all that stuff
14:44 pmurias it's the haskell zlib bindings
14:45 ruoso hmm... automatic installation of dependencies is something I try very hard to avoid
14:45 ruoso I try to keep my /usr/local clean
14:46 pmurias it install stuff to ~/.cabal
14:46 pmurias * installs
14:47 ruoso even then...
14:47 * ruoso like debian packages for binary stuff
14:48 ruoso not keeping track of versioned binary dependencies generates lots of random segfaults with time
14:49 pmurias i don't think you can get segfaults with haskell
14:49 ruoso if it is linked to native asm... it can
14:51 ruoso binary dependencies are more fragile than most people think...
14:52 * pmurias (ab)used gentoo so he has seen a lot of random segfaults
14:53 ruoso getting random segfaults is one thing gentoo is good at ;)
14:54 ruoso pmurias, do you really need parsec 2.1.0.1? or 2.1.0.0 would suffice?
14:54 ruoso because that's the version present in Debian lenny atm
14:54 pmurias i think even 1.0 would suffice
14:55 ruoso pmurias, could you please drop the versioned dependency then?
14:55 pmurias ok
14:56 pmurias i just put the one i have to be on the safe side
14:56 ruoso I think you could use 2.0.0.0
14:56 ruoso since it's a major release number
14:57 ruoso (not that I understand haskell versioning schema)
14:57 pmurias the whole cabal stuff is very young
14:58 ruoso pmurias, when you update the wiki to use cmake, you can point that on debian lenny you only need cabal-install, Cabal and zlib... the rest is available as debian packages
14:59 pmurias i could just change the build system so that it will just use ghc --make instead of the fancy cabal-install stuff
15:00 ruoso well... as I'm not really aware of what all of this actually is, feel free to decide ;)
15:00 ruoso but avoiding a dependency when it's not really required is a good idea...
15:02 * ruoso can't afford learning hakell now... he just need to get things done...
15:03 ruoso pmurias, but if you could commit the version dropping on parsec dependency soon, it would be cool...
15:03 pmurias ok
15:04 pugs_svn r21947 | pmurias++ | [m0ld] changed the parsec dependency to >= 2.0.0.0
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15:07 ruoso pmurias, the only thing missing on the cmake setup now is "make test"
15:08 ruoso once that is ready, I think we can drop autotools at all...
15:08 pmurias we can have a wrapper Makefile, as doing cmake .;make is not a very good idea
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15:09 pmurias what's the best way to have prove run binary tests?
15:09 ruoso it's a single perl -e line...
15:09 ruoso you can see it at Makefile.test
15:11 pmurias doesn't work
15:11 pmurias it treats binaries as shell scripts
15:11 ruoso who does it?
15:11 ruoso cd build; perl -MTest::Harness -e '@tests=<test/*.t>;$Test::Harness::switches="-e \"system(shift)\"";runtests(@tests)'
15:12 ruoso it works for me...
15:13 ruoso but note that for Test::Harness >= 3.00 and <= 3.08 it doesn't work...
15:13 pmurias it workes for me to
15:13 pmurias * toi
15:13 pmurias * too
15:14 ruoso and then the next thing to do is to remove the line "SMOP is a simple C project" from the wiki... ;)
15:15 pmurias do you think it's worth for me to spend time now removing dependencies?
15:15 ruoso nah... better document them.. (if you think it's easier
15:20 ruoso pmurias, http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop_dependencies
15:20 ruoso I've just created this page so we can add the dependencies and notes on how to satisfy them
15:24 pugs_svn r21948 | pmurias++ | [smop] a wrapper Makefile for the cmake based build system
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15:27 pugs_svn r21949 | ruoso++ | [smop] dropping autotools from smop
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15:33 * ruoso lunch &
15:35 pugs_svn r21950 | pmurias++ | [smop] removing autotools leftovers
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17:00 moritz_ re
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18:40 moritz_ pugs: say "test"
18:40 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[test␤]
18:45 moritz_ pugs: $?PUGS_VERSION
18:45 p6eval pugs: RESULT[\"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.13.11, July 31, 2008"]
19:04 speckbot r14575 | larry++ | P5ism noted by moritz++
19:10 pugs_svn r21951 | lwall++ | [gimme5] treat whitespace before optional | as insignificant
19:10 pugs_svn r21951 | lwall++ | [STD] allow anonymous sigil on simple var declarations
19:10 pugs_svn r21951 | lwall++ | [STD] allow post constraints on simple var declarations
19:10 pugs_svn r21951 | lwall++ | [teststd] don't report on failures if no failures
19:11 TimToady Auzon++ on the var decls, btw
19:12 Auzon Thanks TimToady++. I assume that the omissions in STD.pm were easy to fix?
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19:21 TimToady well, there's easy, and then there's easy...took a while to drill down through all the layers of declaration syntax...
19:22 TimToady and I also note that I've busted "has ::?CLASS $.attr is rw;" somehow... :/
19:23 Auzon Well, hopefully I can find more stuff to break before too long. :)
19:39 TimToady I'm sure a lot of stuff will break as soon as I install real symbol tables and catch calls to undefined subs
19:40 moritz_ even more if you don't track try { ... } and dies_ok { ... }
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19:41 gaal hi there! what repo does speckbot track?
19:42 * moritz_ looks it up
19:42 Auzon http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:K4RFCR7BCyAJ:www.bash.org/%3F244321+bash.org+244321&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;cd=1&amp;gl=us
19:42 lambdabot Title: QDB: Quote #244321, http://tinyurl.com/5mplsh
19:42 Auzon wait no
19:42 Auzon http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design/syn
19:42 Auzon Dang, wrong clipboard >_<
19:42 lambdabot Title: Revision 14575: /doc/trunk/design/syn
19:42 moritz_ Auzon++ yes, that one
19:42 Auzon (it could've been a worse paste, I suppose...)
19:43 gaal cheers
19:49 TimToady moritz_: try and dies_ok still have to parse correctly
19:49 TimToady but it's true that STD won't catch runtime errors at the moment  :)
19:50 moritz_ TimToady: but are missing subs compile time errors?
19:50 moritz_ I mean there could always be an eval 'sub *foo { ... }' somewhere, can't it?
19:50 moritz_ or does it have to be pre-declared somehow?
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19:59 rhr is sub *foo valid syntax?  STD doesn't currently accept it
20:00 rhr it also doesn't like [;] and »*=»
20:01 moritz_ rhr: I think it is, you place stuff in the global namespaces with sub *foo
20:01 moritz_ from S13:50 multi sub *uc (TurkishStr $s) {...}
20:02 moritz_ pugs: sub *foo { say 1 }; foo()
20:02 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
20:02 moritz_ perl6: sub *foo { say 1 }; foo()
20:02 p6eval elf 21951: OUTPUT[Parse error in: /tmp/DcrlxlMFZh␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: sub *foo { say 1 }; foo()␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤  STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
20:02 p6eval ..STD_red/st...
20:02 p6eval ..rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "foo { say "␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
20:02 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
20:02 rhr moritz_: thanks, I was looking in the wrong synopsis
20:02 moritz_ rhr: I think there should also be a reference to that in S06
20:07 pugs_svn r21952 | lwall++ | [STD] allow use of ::?CLASS in declaration
20:07 pugs_svn r21952 | lwall++ | [STD] reverse use of ident/identifier to make ident the shorter one
20:08 TimToady I'm thinking of removing sub *foo, which is why STD doesn't support it
20:09 Auzon What would it be instead? Or would the functionality in general be gone?
20:09 TimToady in general modules shouldn't be poking subs into GLOBAL, but just making their subs available for import into the Prelude
20:09 TimToady you can still presumably say sub GLOBAL::foo, so it's really just a de-huffmanization
20:10 TimToady but it's not entirely clear that the multi dispatcher will even end up looking into GLOBAL for anything by default
20:10 TimToady since all the builtins will just be imported by Prelude
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20:11 TimToady moritz_: yes, missing subs are a compile-time error, even if "post-declared"
20:11 TimToady there must be a declaration by CHECK time
20:12 moritz_ that means that we have a few broken tests
20:12 TimToady so a test that presumes eval can declare subs will fail
20:12 TimToady eval can only re-declare them
20:12 moritz_ and it supports my feeling that most dies_ok tests should actually be eval_dies_ok
20:12 TimToady (and/or define them, depending on how you use the terms)
20:12 moritz_ s/be/use/
20:12 TimToady could be
20:14 TimToady rhr: the assignment ops are kinda second-class citizens at the moment because I was having trouble squeezing them into the LTM
20:14 TimToady and the [;] will have to be a special case, I expect, if we continue to support it
20:15 TimToady well, maybe not, since I added a level for feed ops, and ; could be considered the same precedence level...
20:15 pugs_svn r21953 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudge some passing tests for rakudo
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20:40 pugs_svn r21954 | gaal++ | * Restore pugs_revision to pugs config
20:40 pugs_svn r21954 | gaal++ |   (Should pugs_config.h also be restored? Why were these commented out?)
20:40 pugs_svn r21955 | lwall++ | [STD] add semicolon to feed ops as "sequencer" operators
20:41 TimToady rhr: [;] now parses
20:41 TimToady lunch &
20:43 rhr TimToady++ #markov.pl parses :)
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20:54 moritz_ pugs: print $?PUGS_VERSION
20:54 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Perl6 User's Golfing System, version 6.2.13.11, July 31, 2008]
21:25 moritz_ ugs: print $?PUGS_VERSION
21:25 moritz_ pugs: print $?PUGS_VERSION
21:25 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[Perl6 User's Golfing System, version 6.2.13.11, July 31, 2008 (r20996)]
21:25 moritz_ gaal++
21:27 TimToady did the commented-out code require svn access?
21:28 gaal it just includes a file created at configure time
21:28 gaal which in turn tries svk and svn
21:28 gaal I imagine someone will add git probing
21:29 gaal See util/version_h.pl
21:32 pugs_svn r21956 | rhr++ | more syntax fixes
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