Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-08-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:14 TimToady japhb: no, it hasn't changed, as far as I know.  I would not mind switching the next version of p5 over to Artistic 2, but that would require community buy-in that would perhaps be difficult to achieve
00:16 TimToady or we could go further with the junctional licensing: "may be copied under the terms of either the Artistic 2 or (the Artistic 1 or the GPL)"
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00:16 Juerd_test (Testing some webchat thingy at mibbit.com)
00:16 Juerd_test (Looks nice)
00:17 TimToady the main point is that Artistic 2 doesn't need the dual licensing with GPL in order to be GPL compatible
00:17 TimToady that might possibly upset some folks who are violently anti-GPL, I suppose
00:19 TimToady anyway, I'm not too worried about it one way or the other, given that A1 has held up in court now
00:19 TimToady always assuming the SC doesn't overturn that decision...
00:20 TimToady I'm just very glad I used the terms "conditions" and "provided that"
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01:41 meppl good night
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03:14 japhb TimToady: ah, thank you for the license info.  And belated congratulations on the A1 court win! (I'd seen that earlier this week, but forgot to pop in and say something.)
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07:13 masak one of the most common mistakes I make when programming Perl 6 is forgetting to put "self." in front of calls to methods on the invocant
07:15 masak and to some extent, the "self." doesn't _feel_ necessary, so instead of feeling regret, I feel irritation each time I forget it
07:15 masak is there a nifty shorthand I'm unaware of?
07:15 moritz_ use $s as self ,)
07:16 moritz_ then it's only $s.stuff
07:16 moritz_ but I don't think you can really avoid it
07:16 moritz_ because methods *are* different than subs
07:16 masak true
07:16 masak it's just... as a Java programmer, I think I expect to be able to leave off the "self."
07:17 masak I guess I could shroud all my methods in given self { ... }
07:17 masak :)
07:17 masak and then use .method
07:17 moritz_ well, why not ;)
07:17 masak or maybe just call the invocant $_
07:18 moritz_ note that $_ scopes differntly than "ordinary" variables
07:18 masak noted.
07:19 masak ...which doesn't work to my advantage here, I guess :/
07:19 moritz_ does it even matter for you?
07:20 masak couldn't $_ be changed in one of the method calls in my method?
07:20 masak and then it wouldn't contain my invocant any more
07:22 moritz_ my $_ is ro = self; or soemthing perhaps?
07:24 masak 'ro' affects the container, right? not the value inside?
07:24 moritz_ right
07:25 masak a few months back, I had an email discussion with someone on perl6-lang about 'is ro' and optimizations
07:26 masak if the 'ro' trait sticks to the container, not much can be said about the mutability of the value inside
07:26 masak and hence, not many optimizations can safely be made
07:27 moritz_ except for immutable types
07:27 moritz_ like Str and most numeric types
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07:40 masak can the same container be flagged as 'is ro' in one block and 'is rw' in another?
07:49 moritz_ no
07:49 masak why not?
07:49 moritz_ but a container of the same name can be declared in a nested scope
07:49 masak but then it's another container
07:49 moritz_ wouldn't make much sense, would it?
07:52 TimToady you can call a method with $.stuff even if there's no such attribute
07:53 TimToady or @.stuff, %.stuff, whatever is good documentation
07:53 masak TimToady: that's good news
07:53 TimToady well, on the other hand, I think when you're not using it as a variable, self.stuff reads better
07:54 TimToady and you can simply declare the invocant as $_, as in method foo ($_: $a,$b,$c)
07:54 TimToady (but be prepared for inner constructs to hide it)
07:55 TimToady ((which is why it's not the default))
07:55 masak I think my expectations are skewed from Java
07:55 TimToady and "self" itself is just a token rule, which you can override if you like
07:56 TimToady I prefer to know whether I'm invoking the single dispatcer or the multiple dispatcher
07:56 TimToady so I think it's important to maintain the visual distinction
07:56 TimToady since the dispatchers have *very* different philosophies
07:57 TimToady of a "who's to be master, that's all" variety
07:58 TimToady as for transitive ro-ness, it seems easier to add it where we need it than to remove it where we don't
07:59 masak yes
07:59 masak all I'm curious about is, could an ro container ever be mutated, theoretically?
07:59 TimToady and the one-level approach we currently have prevents needless autoviv, which is the main point
08:00 TimToady everything the mathematicians haven't nailed down precisely can be mutated theoretically :)
08:01 masak :)
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08:03 TimToady and, since the default parameter trait could be determined lexically, a pragma could set all default sigs to "is frozen" or some such without getting into C++-ish const-ipation
08:04 TimToady I think half the weight of a typical C++ program must be in "const" declarations
08:06 TimToady moritz_: btw, there is no exists or delete at the moment, but I'm thinking about whether to re-introduce them
08:06 moritz_ TimToady: S29 lists them as "is export"
08:06 TimToady it's currently supposed to be %hash.:exists<foo>
08:06 moritz_ TimToady: doesn't that make them available as a sub?
08:07 TimToady well, S29 might be wrong there, but in any case, export would turn them into exists(%hash, 'foo')
08:07 TimToady it wouldn't support the p5 usage
08:08 moritz_ right
08:08 moritz_ to support the perl 5 useage, do they have to be macros?
08:09 TimToady kinda
08:09 TimToady given the current way EXPR has to look at the precedence of prefix and postfix ops to see if it needs to interleave them
08:10 TimToady it wouldn't be too difficult to interpose an operation just before the final subscript
08:11 TimToady so exists %foo<bar> turns into something like %foo.exists.<bar>
08:11 TimToady except that it can then just change the meaning of the final subscript
08:12 moritz_ sounds scary, in the general case
08:12 TimToady but after staring at various forms of my usage in STD, I think the P5 form is actually important to maintain
08:12 moritz_ yes
08:12 TimToady because of the way people chunk it
08:13 TimToady currently it would have to be written self.<_>[self.pos].:exists<ws>
08:13 TimToady (since I've been using gimme5, I just cheat and use the p5 form there)
08:14 moritz_ can't %hash<nonexistantkey> just return something that 'exists' recognizes as non-existant?
08:14 TimToady but it really wants to be either "exists self.<_>[self.pos]<ws>"
08:14 TimToady or "self.<_>[self.pos]<ws> :exists"
08:14 moritz_ some kind of "special undef", like we do it all the time?
08:15 TimToady yes, that works for exists, but not so well for delete
08:15 moritz_ uhm, right
08:15 TimToady you'd have to mark every value with a backref to its container
08:16 moritz_ which is (at least) equally scary
08:16 TimToady the main problem with the interleaving macro approach is, what if the user defines their own delete multi
08:17 moritz_ multi macro?
08:17 TimToady thinking normal function
08:17 TimToady but it might not have the right scoping with respect to the builtin macro
08:17 TimToady well, maybe it would
08:18 moritz_ maybe we can have some kind of non-evaluation context
08:18 moritz_ so that sub foo :noneval (...) { .. } receives and AST of its argument capture
08:18 moritz_ s/and/an/
08:19 TimToady might be more useful to be able to pop off the last operation and have the rest automatically compiled
08:19 TimToady at least, that would be more useful for exists/delete
08:19 TimToady but any macro can theoritically get the AST and play with it
08:19 moritz_ the Perl6is approach is to offer both ;)
08:20 moritz_ but a macro can't participate in multi dispatch, right?
08:20 TimToady correct
08:20 moritz_ well, I guess it's hard to do multi dispatches on ASTs too
08:21 TimToady well, it can do multi dispatch, but only at compile time, not run time
08:23 moritz_ the TCL approach is to move the parsing to run time ;)
08:23 TimToady fine, if you have the One True Syntax
08:23 moritz_ (I don't think it's practical for Perl 6 in any way ;)
08:24 TimToady so anyway, that's the problem with macros, and why we ended up with the .:exists<foo> form
08:25 TimToady since we already had methods like $filehandle.:r
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08:29 TimToady but the point of monkeying with EXPR is that we could rewrite exists %foo<bar> into exists(%foo,<bar>) as a real function call that could be multied in with other multies
08:30 TimToady sort of a self-modifying macro, as it were
08:31 TimToady but still thinking about it.  meanwhile, I don't think exists exists
08:32 araujo There is no spoon
08:35 moritz_ should I remove them from STD?
08:35 TimToady already gone in my copy, but thinking how to fix my own calls :)
08:36 TimToady the .:exists<foo> form is actually kinda hard for gimme5 to translate generally
08:38 TimToady ('course, that's the other nice thing about that form is that you can use the implicit $_ form while preserving the appearance of a subscript
08:39 TimToady so maybe we'll stick with the adverb-as-method syntax, and install something in the undefined warner to tell you what to use instead of exists and delete
08:40 TimToady well, can't really think straight at 1:40 in the morning...
08:41 TimToady (not that I can think straight at any time of day...)
08:41 TimToady so, night night.
08:41 moritz_ fractal thinking is preferred over straight thinking anyway ;)
08:41 moritz_ good night ;)
08:42 TimToady zzz &
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09:08 pugs_svn r22005 | lwall++ | [STD] remove p5ish usages of exists/delete
09:08 pugs_svn r22005 | lwall++ | [gimme5] translate .:exists and .:delete forms to p5
09:08 pugs_svn r22005 | lwall++ | [S29] remove "is export" from exists/delete methods
09:10 * TimToady is too old to do sleep-hacking # zzz really
09:16 pugs_svn r22006 | lwall++ | [STD] somehow missed adding min and max infixes
09:16 TimToady zzz really really...
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09:32 scrottie that should fix that one.
09:32 moritz_ now somebody brave should fix the test suite ...
09:33 scrottie erm, pardon.  lost control of x2x.
09:33 scrottie or MENU
09:33 * scrottie kills x2x... dammit
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11:22 pmurias is there any use of being able to use an embedded smop from haskell? (i want to play with the haskell FFI, and i'll do it if it's not pure yak shaving)
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12:07 audreyt pmurias: sure, it'll provide an alternate eval() path for pugs without going through GCC at runtime...
12:09 pmurias audreyt: going through GCC is hack until smop can load bytecode
12:09 pmurias * a hack
12:09 moritz_ I thought SMOP was designed to be a run time library, not a VM? (that's what ruoso keeps telling me...)
12:10 audreyt also it will make it easier to expose callback primitives
12:10 audreyt so you can get e.g. STM stuff as additional objects
12:10 audreyt to the smop runtime
12:12 audreyt moritz_: there is very little difference... if perl5's ByteLoader isn't broken then it's arguably a VM (though a particularly platform-dependent one) as well :)
12:12 audreyt pmurias: embedded smop would be there's no need to write extensive "foreign export" wrapper stuff to expose haskell-land objects (or perl5-land objects) into smop
12:13 moritz_ audreyt: I guess that's exactly what the difference is: byte code loading
12:14 audreyt pmurias: so if you got smop embedding going in ffi, then we can have
12:14 audreyt smop_s1p_root_namespace_insert :: Interpreter -> Name -> Object -> IO ()
12:14 pmurias i started working on a m0ld Pugs backend so the smop haskell, but can switch to the smop embedding if you think it's more important
12:16 audreyt I think both are pretty important but FFI sounds like fun
12:16 audreyt sorry, bbiab, my <1mo old macbook disk is rapidly failing :/
12:17 pmurias s/so the smop haskell/
12:18 pmurias \/
12:19 audreyt having smop_s1p_root_namespace_insert in hsland means randomly inserting new classes available thru the runtime, for example a parser class or even a &*::eval
12:19 audreyt er I mean &*eval.
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12:23 pmurias PIL1 seems to reinvent [] is some places
12:24 pmurias s/is/in/
12:24 * audreyt goes finding replacement to completely failing HD. :(
12:24 audreyt bbl
12:36 pmurias audreyt: what's the prefered way to reading AST for a given bit of code, -Cpil1 doesn't add enough whitespace
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12:37 ruoso Hello!
12:38 audreyt pmurias: then it could be fixed -- for human inspection I usually use pugs -CParse-Pretty
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12:40 ruoso moritz_, about to be or not to be a vm... the VM concept barriers are pretty much debatable.... I now tend to say... If you think p5 as a VM, then smop is a VM...
12:41 pmurias ruoso: hi
12:41 ruoso what I do think is that there's a big difference in the fact that SMOP doesn't need a Native Call Interface, because it doesn't abstract to that level...
12:41 ruoso pmurias, hi
12:42 diakopter pmurias: hi
12:43 ruoso TimToady, one thing I'm not really sure is about exposing methods as subs (unless when explicit "is export")... I don't really see the use for that...
12:43 pmurias diakopter: hi
12:44 pmurias ruoso: OTOH smop would benefit from a NCI
12:44 ruoso It can have several NCI implementations... they will be tools to integrate things...
12:44 ruoso but they are far from being *the* NCI that allows getting out of the "vm"
12:45 ruoso because there isn't such a sandbox in smop
12:45 ruoso even when smop has a bytecode, in the end that bytecode could be represented as a set of C calls
12:45 ruoso and the bytecode usage is limited to the scope of that specific code
12:46 ruoso it's not really like an assembler...
12:47 ruoso we just use that to make it easier to write stackless code
12:47 ruoso we could, in theory, survive writing only C code...
12:47 ruoso but we're too lazy to do that
12:48 pmurias ruoso: the discussion is a bit pointless, but we do not differ from parrot much in that regard
12:48 ruoso TimToady, is there a specific use case you have in mind for having all methods visible as subs in the Package?
12:49 moritz_ is that even the case?
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12:49 moritz_ if so, where is that specced?
12:49 ruoso pmurias, indeed... it's bit pointless...
12:49 ruoso moritz_, TimToady told me at some point in the irc
12:53 moritz_ it seems very weird. Method dispatch is handled by the object, and sub calls by something completely differnt
12:53 moritz_ might have been a misunderstanding of some kind
12:54 ruoso it's not the dispatch that is the same... but the methods that are *also* exposed as subs in the package...
12:54 ruoso like aliases
12:55 ruoso so you can refer to the method object going through the package
12:55 ruoso but I think the sane way to do that would be through the meta
12:55 ruoso so I don't see the use case for having the aliases for the methods in the package
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12:56 moritz_ but it would also imply weird stuff: class { has $.time; # here time() refers to self.time }
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12:57 pmurias ruoso: re qualified attendees, what's the biggest barrier to hacking on smop now?
12:57 ruoso pmurias, the exotic nature of SMOP?
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12:59 ruoso I think that barrier should lower once that s1p is in place...
13:00 ruoso but at this point, a lot of faith in the future is needed to hack on smop ;)
13:02 ruoso audreyt, pmurias, btw... embedding smop in pugs should be a very interesting way to implement s1p... it should even allow us to have a evalbot ;) since pugs could be creating mold frames at runtime and executing them...
13:02 ruoso instead of having to go through gcc to compile the code...
13:04 ruoso and I even think smop already has enough features to support some oneliners
13:04 pmurias food&
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13:26 * ruoso leaving to an interview about free software in a local radio...
13:27 * ruoso later &
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13:59 clintongormley rakudo: @a=<1 2 3>; say @a;
13:59 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Scope not found for PAST::Var '@a'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;panic' pc 156 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:103)␤]
13:59 clintongormley rakudo: my @a=<1 2 3>; say @a;
13:59 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[123␤]
13:59 clintongormley rakudo: @a=<1 2 3>; say "@a";
13:59 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Scope not found for PAST::Var '@a'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;panic' pc 156 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:103)␤]
13:59 clintongormley rakudo: my @a=<1 2 3>; say @a;
13:59 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[123␤]
13:59 clintongormley blast
14:00 moritz_ rakudo: my @a=<1 2 3>; say @a.perl;
14:00 clintongormley rakudo: my @a=<1 2 3>; say "@a";
14:00 clintongormley that got it foxed :)
14:00 p6eval rakudo 29834: RESULT[["1", "2", "3"]␤1]
14:00 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[@a␤]
14:00 clintongormley rakudo: my @a=<1 2 3>; say "@a[]";
14:00 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[@a[]␤]
14:00 clintongormley huh?
14:01 clintongormley moritz - reading your blog
14:01 clintongormley about interpolation
14:01 masak indeed, huh?
14:01 moritz_ that's weird
14:01 clintongormley glad it's not just me :)
14:01 masak clintongormley: perhaps not implemented yet
14:01 moritz_ I knew it worked some time ago
14:01 moritz_ (or I think I knew)
14:01 masak clintongormley: care to submit a bug to rakudobug? :)
14:01 clintongormley pugs: my @a=<1 2 3>; say "@a";
14:01 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[@a␤]
14:02 clintongormley pugs: my @a=<1 2 3>; say "@a[]";
14:02 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[1 2 3␤]
14:02 clintongormley ok masak
14:02 clintongormley hmm - url?
14:02 moritz_ rakudobug@perl.org
14:02 clintongormley ah - just an email
14:02 clintongormley ok
14:03 clintongormley any particular format for subject, body etc?
14:03 moritz_ nothing really
14:03 clintongormley can i get a rakudo version number from the bot?
14:03 moritz_ 16:00 < p6eval> rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[@a#]
14:04 moritz_ the 29834 is the revision number
14:04 clintongormley ah right - thanks
14:04 clintongormley moritz++ for the blog
14:04 clintongormley keep it up
14:04 moritz_ clintongormley: I wrote about 5 more posts already...
14:05 clintongormley out of interest, why would "@a" not work?
14:05 moritz_ clintongormley: but since I know that I'll slow down, I publish them only one per day
14:05 clintongormley :D
14:05 moritz_ I think it's because of email addresses
14:05 moritz_ but I'm not sure
14:05 clintongormley ah ok
14:06 moritz_ it seems array interpolation is undertested
14:07 moritz_ r15926 | pmichaud | ... * Understands basic interpolation schemes, including interpolation  of arrays and other constructs into "..." and <<...>> .
14:07 moritz_ so it's clearly a regression, not a TODO thing
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14:12 masak moritz_: yes, it's because of email addresses
14:13 clintongormley moritz: "Finally you should know that both [..] and {...} are just method calls with a special syntax, not something tied to arrays and hashes. That means that they are also not tied to a particular sigil.  "
14:13 clintongormley ??
14:14 clintongormley you give as your example:
14:14 clintongormley my $a = [1, 2, 3];     say $a[2];          # 3
14:14 clintongormley so does that actually mean $a contains an array ref?
14:16 moritz_ clintongormley: yes
14:17 moritz_ clintongormley: or "an Array object", since everything is a reference, so otalking about references is mostly meaningless
14:17 clintongormley but if you were to say, eg my %a={ 'a'=> 1, 'b' => 2}; print %a[1]
14:17 pugs_svn r22007 | moritz++ | [t] some fixes for try as a function
14:17 clintongormley what would that do?
14:17 clintongormley fail? :)
14:18 moritz_ no, you can use { ... } to construct hashes, IIRC
14:18 pugs_svn r22008 | moritz++ | [t] move interpolation tests to spec/, add a few.  clintongormley++.
14:18 moritz_ rakudo: my %a={ 'a'=> 1, 'b' => 2};; say %a.perl; say %a<b>
14:18 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;List;hash' pc 2739 (src/gen_builtins.pir:1883)␤]
14:18 moritz_ ... or perhaps not. /me is unsure ;)
14:19 moritz_ pugs: my %a={ 'a'=> 1, 'b' => 2};; say %a.perl; say %a<b>
14:19 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[\(\("a", 1), \("b", 2))␤2␤]
14:20 clintongormley sorry, my question was about how [] and {} are methods, not specifically tied to arrays/hashes
14:20 masak IIUC, things like my @a = [1,2,3]; create am array with one element, namely the Array object with the three elements 1, 2 and 3.
14:20 masak that still surprises me sometimes.
14:20 moritz_ clintongormley: just a sec, I'll write something for you..
14:20 clintongormley but if you were to try to use [] on a hash... presumably that would be 'unknown method' or something similar
14:21 [particle] pugs: my %h = { 'a' => 1 }; %h['a'];
14:21 p6eval pugs: RESULT[\\("a", 1)]
14:21 [particle] urk
14:21 [particle] rakudo: my %h = { 'a' => 1 }; %h['a'];
14:21 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;List;hash' pc 2739 (src/gen_builtins.pir:1883)␤]
14:21 pasteling "moritz_" at 89.13.255.83 pasted ".[] as a method, for clinton" (6 lines, 138B) at http://sial.org/pbot/31970
14:22 [particle] rakudo: my %h = ( 'a' => 1 ); %h['a'];
14:22 p6eval rakudo 29834: RESULT[undef]
14:22 [particle] rakudo: my %h = ( 'a' => 1 ); %h{'a'};
14:22 p6eval rakudo 29834: RESULT[1]
14:23 moritz_ clintongormley: does the example in the paste make it more clear?
14:23 [particle] looks like t/spec/ needs some tests wrt %h[...] and @a{...}
14:23 clintongormley yeah - i get that you can define those symbols as a method
14:24 moritz_ [particle]: I just moved some array interpolation tests there, and currenly fudging them
14:24 clintongormley the way you wrote it in that tutorial, my first thought was that sigils are syntactic sugar, and not really necessary to determine array/hash etc
14:24 clintongormley as opposed to "actually these are just implemented as methods of array and hash objects respectively"
14:24 masak moritz_: nitpick: you defined postcircumfix:<{ }> but used []
14:25 moritz_ masak: uhm, yes. /me dumb ;)
14:25 masak not at all, it's just Friday :)
14:28 pugs_svn r22009 | moritz++ | [spec] fudged array-interpolation.t for rakudo.
14:28 pugs_svn r22009 | moritz++ | Sadly I also had to join some lines, because fudge doesn't work with multi
14:28 pugs_svn r22009 | moritz++ | line test statements
14:29 masak it doesn't? :/
14:29 [particle] hrmm, that can be fixed
14:29 masak fudge is less magical than I supposed...
14:29 moritz_ [particle]: go right ahead
14:30 [particle] yeah, not today, unfortunately
14:30 [particle] work for 3.5hrs, then dentist, then weekend with in-laws
14:31 moritz_ sounds like no fun :(
14:32 pugs_svn r22010 | moritz++ | [t] moved hash interpolation test to spec/
14:34 pugs_svn r22011 | moritz++ | [spec] fudged hash-interpolation.t for rakudo
14:35 masak at least he doesn't have to work _at_ the dentist's office, while his in-laws watch
14:36 [particle] :)
14:36 masak things can always be less fun than they actually are.
14:36 [particle] -O"less fun than it actually is"
14:36 masak haha
14:39 [particle] i'd like to say that parrot has impressed me.
14:40 [particle] seems it doesn't matter what platform regression spectests are added on, they work on all platforms
14:41 [particle] portability++ parrot++
14:41 moritz_ except for a few small GC issues, or libicu unavailability
14:42 masak I'm impressed too. but I do get segfaults on every other runtime error, due to some unresolved GC issue.
14:42 [particle] gc is *hard*
14:42 [particle] but we're addressing that now.
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14:43 [particle] first mmd, then io, with ongoing gc.
14:43 masak [particle]++
14:44 pmurias audreyt: why doesn't PIL1 derive Data?
14:45 audreyt pmurias: GADTs can't currently derive data automagically
14:45 audreyt pmurias: though we can arrange for it to happen
14:46 audreyt using the derive package
14:50 pmurias audreyt: are there any GADTs in PIL1?
14:50 pugs_svn r22012 | moritz++ | [t/spec] add RT number to todo message
14:51 audreyt oh right
14:51 audreyt there is none atm :) it was factored out
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14:51 rakudo_svn r30447 | moritz++ | [rakudo] added array interpolation tests to spectest_regression
14:51 rakudo_svn r30449 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add hash interpolation tests to spectest_regression
14:52 audreyt you'd need to derive Data for everything else it uses, though
14:53 [particle] hrmm, rakudo_svn bot used to be faster than #parrot's dalek at reporting svn ci
14:53 audreyt including Val, which has the VRef case
14:53 audreyt which which uses IVar
14:53 audreyt which is GADT
14:53 * audreyt finally recalled the chain
14:53 audreyt pmurias: but you can experiment with standalone deriving
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15:24 bennymack-work is there something to read about the rakudo REPL? I get these PAST/Var errors when attempting to acces "my" variables
15:26 moritz_ bennymack-work: can you paste an example script?
15:27 moritz_ list assignment is not implemented, so ($a, $b) = ... won't work
15:28 rindolf joined #perl6
15:31 clintongormley moritz_ please add p6 regexes to your tutorial list
15:31 clintongormley or are they Rules?
15:31 jhorwitz joined #perl6
15:31 moritz_ clintongormley: they are Rules
15:31 clintongormley ah ok
15:31 meppl joined #perl6
15:31 pasteling "bennymack" at 24.75.15.14 pasted "REPL issues." (6 lines, 93B) at http://sial.org/pbot/31972
15:31 clintongormley and what's that .perl method i see you use?
15:31 clintongormley a deparser?
15:32 moritz_ clintongormley: it's the built in Data::Dumper equivalent
15:32 clintongormley ok
15:32 clintongormley ta
15:32 moritz_ bennymack-work: the rakudo REPL puts a block around each line :(
15:32 clintongormley laters all
15:32 bennymack-work hrm
15:32 moritz_ bennymack-work: so to use variables in the repl, you have to define them on the same line
15:33 bennymack-work ok
15:33 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 1; say $x.WHAT
15:33 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Int␤]
15:33 moritz_ I love my evalbot ;)
15:33 * [particle] too
15:34 bennymack-work would using an our variable fix that somehow?
15:35 moritz_ no
15:38 masak bennymack-work: I never use the Rakudo REPL. it sucks.
15:38 masak I write command-line one-liners instead :)
15:39 moritz_ that's a bit ugly when you want to test quoting
15:39 moritz_ because one kind of quote is always used up as the delimiter of the program
15:40 masak yes.
15:40 masak in those cases, I cat to a file and run the file
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15:51 [particle] masak: file a bug, if you think it sucks
15:51 justatheory joined #perl6
15:52 masak [particle]: good idea.
15:54 fronty joined #perl6
16:00 jhorwitz masak: ping
16:01 masak jhorwitz: pong
16:01 jhorwitz working on getting november running under mod_perl6
16:02 masak cool!
16:02 masak how's it going?
16:02 jhorwitz lots of registry support missing for cgi-emulation, but that shouldn't be too hard to fix
16:02 [particle] jhorwitz++ masak++
16:02 jhorwitz but initial tests show a 10x speedup once the script is loaded the first time
16:03 masak jhorwitz: compared to running from source?
16:03 masak because nowadays we run from PIR, with a 17-fold speedup :)
16:03 jhorwitz compared to running from pure cgi
16:03 jhorwitz ah nice!
16:03 jhorwitz we can run that too.  :)
16:03 masak ah, nice
16:03 masak 17 x 10 = 170 :)
16:04 jhorwitz mod_perl6 is using the pure-perl6 source
16:04 [particle] ummm, wow.
16:04 moritz_ but it compiles only for the first request (or the startup), right?
16:05 moritz_ so I guess you can't get both speedups
16:05 jhorwitz correct (for each apache process), then it uses the cached version
16:05 jhorwitz right
16:05 exodist_ joined #perl6
16:05 jhorwitz so we're probably seeing the same speedup
16:06 jhorwitz but it's helping me move ModPerl6::Registry along, so that's good too.  :)
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16:09 masak indeed.
16:12 masak what _would_ help performance for november, however, is caching of pages for logged-out users
16:12 masak that 17-fold speedup does make november usable, but caching on top of that is just good sense
16:12 masak but I know nothing about such things, so I don't know how difficult it is to set up
16:14 jhorwitz you can do that with mod_perl6 by keeping a global (per-process) cache
16:15 masak sounds good
16:15 masak how do I flag pages likely to change as such?
16:16 masak or rather, will that caching mechanism be able to discriminate between logged-in and not-logged-in users>
16:16 masak s/>/?/
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16:16 jhorwitz just declare a hash: "our %CACHED_PAGES" in wiki and keep the parsed pages and metadata in there.  it's up to you to determine when to use it.
16:16 TimToady p6 is supposed to have a PROCESS namespace outside of GLOBAL for such things
16:17 TimToady presuming mod_perl6 uses separate interpreters
16:17 jhorwitz it does, for each apache worker/process
16:18 TimToady then it should probably be %PROCESS::CACHED_PAGES eventually
16:18 masak jhorwitz: looking forward to future collaboration
16:18 jhorwitz threaded environments have pools of interpreters per-process
16:18 masak gotta go eat sushi in the rain now.
16:18 jhorwitz mmmm
16:18 masak yes :)
16:18 jhorwitz enjoy.  :)
16:19 masak I will, thanks :)
16:19 jhorwitz particle: can i get $r.method() to work w/o rakudo parsing "method" as a keyword?
16:21 TimToady rakudo: class Hi { method method { say 'hi' }}; Hi.method()
16:21 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[hi␤]
16:21 TimToady looks like it works to me
16:21 jhorwitz hm
16:22 TimToady rakudo: class Hi { method method { say 'hi' }}; my $x = Hi; $x.method()
16:22 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[hi␤]
16:22 jhorwitz then there's probably some error in my "method" method, cuz i get this: invoke() not implemented in class 'Undef'
16:23 * jhorwitz investigates
16:26 bennymack-work is map implemented yet? I can't seem to get it to work.
16:26 bennymack-work rakudo: < foostra�e barstra�e fakestra�e >.map:{ ucfirst $^stra�enname }
16:26 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ":{ ucfirst"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
16:27 Auzon rakudo: my @a = <1 2 3 4 5>; @a.map({$_ + 1}).say
16:27 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[23456␤]
16:27 bennymack-work rakudo: < foostra�e barstra�e fakestra�e >.map({ ucfirst $^stra�enname }).say
16:27 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\ufffdenname })"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
16:27 Auzon Unicode support on the bot isn't terrific
16:28 TimToady fffd is the "unicode replacement character" iirc
16:28 bennymack-work rakudo: < foo bar fake >.map({ ucfirst $^baz }).say
16:28 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[FooBarFake␤]
16:28 [particle] it's probably the colon sytax that's not working
16:29 TimToady rakudo: < foostraße barstraße fakestraße >.map: { ucfirst $^straßenname }
16:29 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected USTRINGC, expecting STRINGC ('unicode:"$^stra\x{df}enname"')␤   in file 'EVAL_14' line 27␤Lexical '$^straßenname' not found␤current instr.: '_block19' pc 93 (EVAL_14:34)␤]
16:29 TimToady rakudo: < foostraße barstraße fakestraße >.map :{ ucfirst $^straßenname }
16:29 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ":{ ucfirst"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
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16:30 moritz_ the bot does a double decode or encode somewhere
16:31 TimToady rakudo: < foostrasse barstrasse fakestrasse >.map :{ ucfirst $^strassenname }
16:31 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ":{ ucfirst"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
16:31 TimToady rakudo: < foostrasse barstrasse fakestrasse >.map: { ucfirst $^strassenname }
16:31 p6eval rakudo 29834: RESULT[["Foostrasse", "Barstrasse", "Fakestrasse"]]
16:31 moritz_ rakudo: say 'ö'
16:31 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[ö␤]
16:31 moritz_ rakudo: say 'ö'.bytes
16:31 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Method 'bytes' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_13:13)␤]
16:32 TimToady well, you have to know the encoding before you can know the bytes
16:32 TimToady rakudo: say 'ö'.chars
16:32 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[1␤]
16:32 TimToady rakudo: say 'ö'.codes
16:32 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Method 'codes' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_13:13)␤]
16:33 TimToady rakudo: say 'ö'.codepoints
16:33 p6eval rakudo 29834: OUTPUT[Method 'codepoints' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_13:13)␤]
16:33 [particle] you're not going to get much support from rakudo for those layers yet
16:33 moritz_ TimToady: isn't that 'codes'?
16:34 moritz_ ah, right
16:34 moritz_ well, current .chars is actually .codes
16:34 moritz_ I tested that a while ago
16:35 jhorwitz TimToady: "method" problem solved.  it helps to install mod_parrot after recompiling.  ;-)
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16:38 [particle] silly programmer
16:38 jhorwitz definitely a PEBKAC moment
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16:46 rakudo_svn r30455 | moritz++ | [rakudo] various small updates to tools/*.pl
16:46 rakudo_svn r30455 | moritz++ |  * progress-graph.pl: configurable output size, less x ticks
16:46 rakudo_svn r30455 | moritz++ |  * test_summary.pl: we don't have #pure markers any more
16:46 rakudo_svn r30455 | moritz++ |  * autounfudge: usage() used to throw a bogus warning. Fixed
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17:22 pmurias ruoso_: do we have a TODO?
17:27 ruoso_ pmurias: yes... we need to make a draft output of what s1p would generate
17:28 ruoso_ basically, initializing a p6opaque object, putting it into the global namespace and adding methods to it...
17:29 ruoso_ and we also need the default metaclass instance..
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17:33 ruoso_ I think maybe the first step would be to implement a pure prototype metaclass instance
17:33 ruoso_ then the default Perl 6 metaclass could be implemented in s1p using the pure prototype metaclass
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17:53 pmurias i think a metaclass which would take the dispatch method as a closure, and did nothing else should be enough to bootstrap the metamodel
17:54 pmurias ruoso_: i thought more of a TODO file
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18:06 ruoso_ pmurias: that should be the ROADMAP in the wiki
18:09 ruoso_ which should be updated...
18:14 pugs_svn r22013 | lwall++ | [Cursor] more speed tweaks
18:19 pugs_svn r22014 | lwall++ | [Cursor] another speed tweak.  Now compiles STD.pm in <30sec if cache is precomputed
18:21 ruoso_ pmurias: I tried to update the ROADMAP in the wiki... it now looks like what I think that should happen in the near future...
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19:13 TimToady ruoso_: methods that are part of a public interface need to have names that are not operationally defined, so that the user can name the appropriate documentation without running the program, among other things.
19:14 TimToady so all declarations default to "our"; you can always say "my method" if you don't want to advertise the name
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19:17 ruoso_ TimToady: so method time would need to be declared as my?
19:18 ruoso_ because time is a global routine...
19:18 ruoso_ but my method makes it really private
19:18 ruoso_ in the OO sense... not just in the lexical scope sense... doesn't it?
19:18 ruoso_ so... how do I have a public method time that doesn't clash with the global time sub?
19:20 ruoso_ and, most importantly... which use cases is this provisioning?
19:20 TimToady there's no conflict, because the sub dispatcher will never call any method
19:20 ruoso_ but if the method is exposed as a sub in that package?
19:20 TimToady time() always means the sub, not the method
19:21 TimToady it's still just a method
19:21 TimToady and the dispatcher knows that
19:21 TimToady the only way to call method time as a sub is to say &time()
19:21 ruoso_ hm... so it basically is aliased in the package for the dispatcher to ignore it?
19:22 ruoso_ hmm..
19:22 TimToady which is what the method dispatcher does to call methods without calling the dispatcher recursively
19:22 ruoso_ hmmm
19:23 ruoso_ alright... I think that's the point...
19:23 ruoso_ the method dispatcher doesn't need to look into the Package to find the methods
19:23 ruoso_ the methods are stored in the prototype...
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19:24 TimToady the package names are just convenient aliases for talking about the methods globally
19:24 ruoso_ hm...
19:25 ruoso_ I was really thinking on Packages and Classes as completely different things
19:25 ruoso_ a Class happens to be declared in a Package
19:25 TimToady but $routine() doesn't care whether the code ref was generated via &name or $obj->getmethod
19:25 ruoso_ but it might even have parts declared in different packages
19:26 ruoso_ yes... but why do you need to find a method as a sub?
19:26 ruoso_ considering the method won't ever be used as a sub
19:27 ruoso_ and that the sub dispatcher will have to ignore it
19:27 ruoso_ and also considering the HOW is supposed to get you that same routine object
19:27 TimToady the sub dispatcher knows the scope of its names at compile time, and a scope that contains method foo cannot contain sub foo
19:28 TimToady the dispatcher uses the method as a sub
19:29 ruoso_ "a scope that contains method foo cannot contain sub foo"... any particular reason? considering sub and method dispatch are very much unrelated?
19:29 TimToady the method dispatcher use the method as a sub
19:29 TimToady *uses
19:29 ruoso_ isn't the HOW supposed to decide that?
19:29 TimToady yes, to avoid confusion, and to unify the Code namespace for documentation purposes
19:29 ruoso_ I mean.. it doesn't need to look for the method as a sub in the package
19:30 ruoso_ it can use the HOW to look in the class
19:30 ruoso_ and then call .() later
19:30 TimToady I just said that .() doesn't care whether you look the method up in the package or not
19:30 TimToady a code ref is a code ref
19:31 ruoso_ sure sure... I'm not arguing on that point
19:31 ruoso_ my point is about having the method aliased in the Package
19:31 TimToady and that point is?
19:31 ruoso_ the method can be stored in the prototype or metaclass instance.. (depending if it is prototype or class based)
19:32 TimToady certainly
19:34 ruoso_ adding an alias in the Package only to make the sub dispatcher to ignore it seems strange
19:34 ruoso_ that was my first question, actually
19:34 ruoso_ what is the use case for that alias?
19:34 ruoso_ considering you can search it using the HOW
19:34 ruoso_ considering that's actually the expected way for you to find it
19:34 TimToady ruoso_: methods that are part of a public interface need to have names that are not operationally defined, so that the user can name the appropriate documentation without running the program, among other things.
19:35 TimToady so all declarations default to "our"; you can always say "my method" if you don't want to advertise the name
19:35 ruoso_ alright... but that's another issue..
19:36 TimToady "another issue" is the reason for the alias
19:36 TimToady and I already explained that the sub dispatcher can ignore it at compile time
19:36 TimToady it's never in the list of candidates
19:37 ruoso_ I don't get it...
19:37 TimToady something has to generate the list of multi candidates; that something knows at compile time which scopes might produce candidates and which can't
19:38 ruoso_ I don't get it...
19:38 ruoso_ I mean... we can have the checking to avoid "operationally defined" names in methods without aliases in the packages
19:41 sri_work joined #perl6
19:41 ruoso_ alright... I still don't get why it need to be aliased in the Package... but if 'method time' doesn't generate clashing, it means that it should be ok to ignore it for now...
19:43 TimToady lunch &
20:01 gaal audreyt: so, what's needed to finally switch over to newVal?
20:04 gaal TimToady: do gimme5 and friends need to use /usr/local/bin/perl instead of /usr/bin/perl?
20:05 moritz_ gaal: many people don't have a perl 5.10 in /usr/bin/perl
20:05 moritz_ gaal: I just created a symlink to the normal perl
20:06 ruoso_ pmurias: m0ld is not accepting "^!methods" as an identifier...
20:06 * ruoso_ trying to see if he can fix it... but with no much hope...
20:12 * ruoso_ should have more hope in the future.. considering he was able to actually fix it ;)
20:13 gaal parsec is fun
20:13 pugs_svn r22015 | ruoso++ | [smop] SMOP__S1P__PurePrototypeHow implements a dispatch that .^!methods.{name}.($actualcapture)
20:14 gaal moritz_: d'oh
20:16 ruoso_ interesting that as we get at a higher level in smop (using more and more m0ld code), it's starting to be very easy to implement things... and almost no segfaults are produced...
20:19 gaal what are valid twigils in mold?
20:19 ruoso_ gaal: I don't think you have many... if any...
20:20 ruoso_ even $*OUT is being fetched manually in some tests...
20:20 pmurias gaal: there is no point in having twigil in mold
20:20 pmurias * twigils
20:20 pmurias as there are no variables only registers
20:20 gaal you just added ^ because it was one, no?
20:21 pmurias ruoso_: why did you need ^ as part of identifiers?
20:21 ruoso_ .^!methods
20:21 ruoso_ gaal: it's not a twigil... it's part of the identifiers...
20:21 pmurias it's ."^!method"
20:22 pmurias the identifier rule is only used for registers and labels
20:22 ruoso_ yes yes... that's how it is in the code
20:23 gaal are identifiers really required to be longer than one character?
20:23 ruoso_ but it was failing before I modify the rule
20:23 gaal pmurias: can you remind me how to run the unittest please?
20:25 ruoso_ pmurias: I think a m0ld "return" operator would be usefull... there's a small chunck of m0ld code that is starting to appear everywhere...
20:25 ruoso_ pmurias: take a look at the last lines of the m0ld block in smop_s1p_pureprototypehow.sm0p
20:26 pmurias gaal: make test, but it requires having ruby1.9
20:26 ruoso_ the good news is that the next point in the ROADMAP is actually producing the draft s1p output...
20:27 ruoso_ pmurias: actually, both a return and a leave operator, since mold doesn't automatically falls back to the "back"
20:29 pmurias ruoso_: we could have an $interpreter return method
20:29 ruoso_ but the $interpreter is not the one that holds the other continuation
20:30 ruoso_ it's the current $frame
20:30 ruoso_ oh...
20:30 ruoso_ right
20:30 ruoso_ the $interpreter would use the "back" method to fetch it... d'oh
20:31 gaal um, why is make test depending on a very new version of yet another build tool, that isn't in the latest ubuntu?
20:31 pmurias gaal: or do you want to just run test/24_mold
20:32 gaal well, the latter for now
20:32 * ruoso_ packing stuff... should be back later...
20:32 pmurias gaal: you can change the version number in CMakeLists to the one you have and if make test runs commit it
20:33 pmurias what's the version of cmake that you have
20:33 gaal pmurias: 2.4.6
20:33 gaal and I get errors like
20:33 gaal CMake Error: The end of a CMakeLists file was reached with a FOREACH statement that was not closed properly. Within the directory: /home/gaal/src/pugs/v6/smop
20:34 pmurias make;./build/test/24_m0ld.t
20:35 pmurias gaal: after decrementing the version check at the top?
20:35 gaal yes
20:38 pmurias found something which make cause it in cmake changelog
20:40 pugs_svn r22016 | pmurias++ | [mold] reverted ruoso's change to identifier, might have made the CMakeLists work with preivous versions of cmake
20:41 gaal so: does m0ld reject single-letter identifiers on purpose?
20:41 pmurias no
20:43 pmurias gaal: does cmake work now?
20:43 pmurias how do i install an old version of a package in debian?
20:43 gaal pmurias: trying to resolve conflicts, sec
20:44 gaal re: old version, don't remember, think it's something like pkg=the_old_version
20:45 pmurias version 2.4.6 wasn't found in testing
20:47 gaal something fishy is going on in the tree, svk pull is showing lots of conflicts where there are none
20:48 pugs_svn r22017 | gaal++ |  r7317@gaal-lap (orig r19402):  ruoso | 2008-01-10 17:25:23 +0200
20:48 pugs_svn r22017 | gaal++ |  [yap6] last commit before rename
20:48 pugs_svn r22017 | gaal++ |  r7326@gaal-lap (orig r19411):  ruoso | 2008-01-10 18:13:53 +0200
20:48 pugs_svn r22017 | gaal++ |  [yap6] cleaning up yap6 dir, leaving a goodbye note.
20:48 pugs_svn r22017 | gaal++ |  r7332@gaal-lap (orig r19417):  ruoso | 2008-01-10 21:09:40 +0200
20:48 pugs_svn r22017 | gaal++ |  [yap6] updating yap6 goodbye note.
20:48 pugs_svn r22017 | gaal++ |  r7337@gaal-lap (orig r19422):  pmurias | 2008-01-10 21:59:33 +0200
20:48 pugs_svn r22017 | gaal++ |  points to the right directory
20:48 gaal uh what
20:48 pmurias encountered it myself before
20:49 pugs_svn r22018 | pmurias++ | removed the v6/yap6 dir
20:49 pmurias maybe this will help
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20:49 gaal how did r22017 happen, I didn't commit anything
20:49 pmurias svk bugs
20:51 pmurias had exactly the same problem when i used svk
20:54 gaal somehow my svk replayed some old commits, and broke the tree. I can't pull the last r.
20:56 pmurias it can be circumvented somehow, don't remember how i did it, but my svk kept reporting fake conficts
20:56 gaal well, I know how to skip an r in svk, but my client's still broken now :/
20:57 gaal svk sy -s r22017
20:57 gaal or rather, r22018
20:59 gaal argh, enough computers for today!
21:04 pmurias shower&
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22:34 pugs_svn r22019 | moritz++ | [t/spec] add basic tests for slurpy parameters
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