Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-08-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady and as [particle] was pointing out, captures really have nothing to do with that, since the purpose of | is to hide that info by inlining
00:02 wknight8111 Do you have a link for the best place to read the synopses? I feel like I always have to google search because I can never find them
00:03 wknight8111 or are they somewhere in the pugs repo?
00:03 wknight8111 shoot, i don't even have a checkout of pugs anymore
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00:07 [particle] http://spec.pugscode.org
00:10 TimToady afk & # leaving for the samurai era...
00:16 wknight8111 thanks
00:19 wknight8111 I had read through all the apocalypses and synopses a long time ago. They're really fascinating
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07:35 pugs_svn r22064 | moritz++ | [t/spec] some random unfudges and fixes
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08:27 masak I really hope {*} becomes a Perl 6 feature
08:27 masak if not, I will write a module, as soon as that becomes possible, so that I can use it as if it were
08:28 TimToady :)
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08:30 masak we already do quite a bit of $/ tree traversal in the wiki. with {*}, even that code would go away.
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08:31 moritz_ use Regex::Stubs;
08:31 masak aye :)
08:31 masak of course, I'm hoping I won't have to import anything
08:32 masak I don't think the current semantics of {*} are worth protecting :)
08:32 masak s/current/currently specced/
08:39 TimToady well, the point is that it obviously does nothing by default except count as a side effect for LTM
08:39 masak yes
08:40 TimToady and since the builtin meaning is useless, there's no problem binding it to any behavior you like
08:40 masak exactly
08:40 masak it's the binding itself that I'm a bit unclear on
08:41 masak if I had an idea on how to do that, I'd write to perl6-lang and propose to add it
08:42 masak but in general terms, there's the grammar, the class that want's to hook in into the {*}s, and the match itself
08:42 masak the binding could theoretically be done in any of these three locations
08:42 masak ...but right now only the match location seems reasonable to me
08:44 moritz_ I think if we spec it, then it should somehow take named arguments instead of the semantik comments that STD.pm and PGE use now
08:44 masak good point.
08:45 moritz_ so <stuff> {*}    #= this_stuff
08:45 moritz_ should become <stuff> {*:this_stuff} or the like
08:49 moritz_ (which currently isn't valid Perl 6)
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09:12 masak gasp! .perl is not in S29!
09:13 moritz_ no, S02 or S03 iirc
09:13 masak aye, S02
09:13 masak (S29 needs some love)
09:13 moritz_ s/some/much/
09:14 masak haha, .perl is specified on line 1337 of S02. how appropriate :)
09:14 moritz_ ;)
09:14 moritz_ S02:1337 # make the IRC logs link to it
09:15 masak oh right
09:15 masak I should force Emacs to do the same, actually
09:16 masak it would pay off in productivity pretty quickly
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09:24 TimToady well, {'this_stuff'} is just as usefully useless as {*}, but the main point of {*} is to keep the clutter out of the main code
09:26 masak right. also, it loses its 'visual pill' feel if it's much longer than {*}
09:26 TimToady though I suppose there's no reason {'foo'} can't be put over where the comment currently is, unless there are intervening tokens
09:27 TimToady but then you have to specially recognize something variable
09:28 TimToady I need a way of naming alternations too for better error messages than "expecting statement (alt 05)"
09:28 TimToady maybe that could unify somehow
09:29 TimToady bbl & # bangohan
09:29 masak seems to me alternations, having no name, are only identified by what they match on.
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11:02 moritz_ masak: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=707723
11:02 lambdabot Title: November - a wiki written in Perl 6
11:02 moritz_ (not my doing)
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11:03 riffraff hi
11:03 moritz_ hi riffraff ;)
11:03 pmurias riffraff: hi
11:04 masak moritz_: thanks for the heads-up
11:05 masak by the way, jonathan and pmichaud have been pinged for three hours now, which is like a week in internet time
11:05 moritz_ ping timeout ;)
11:05 moritz_ go ahead and publish, then ;)
11:05 masak aye :)
11:13 pmurias masak: i actually find writing actions directly inside {...} blocks and extracting them using a script instead of using {*} more fun
11:16 masak pmurias: maybe we should write some imagined code and compare
11:17 pmurias masak: if you want
11:18 moritz_ I think of grammars as an inverted templates...
11:18 moritz_ so inlining the closures is a bit like using Mason
11:18 moritz_ and using {*} is a bit more like using HTML::Template
11:21 moritz_ masak: if we had {*}, how would we know which part of %parameters we need to access?
11:23 * masak gets hit by the impact of that problem
11:23 masak don't know.
11:24 masak how does PGE do it?
11:24 masak I mean, the corresponding thing
11:24 moritz_ I think you can use a "global" variable thing
11:24 masak an action method has to know about its surroundings somehow
11:24 moritz_ let's call it @stack
11:25 masak hm...
11:25 moritz_ then a <TMPL_LOOP> would push @stack[*-1]{$<name>} onto @stack
11:25 masak btw, my secret ideal in these matters is XSLT, which solves much of this adequately
11:25 moritz_ and the </TMPL_LOOP> would pop
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11:27 moritz_ or more elegantly a dynamically scoped variable
11:27 moritz_ (like local() in perl 5)
11:28 masak that sounds more like it
11:28 masak can such a variable be shared between methods_
11:28 masak ?
11:28 moritz_ why not?
11:28 moritz_ a grammar is just a class; I suspect it can have attributes
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11:36 masak http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/37303
11:36 lambdabot Title: Journal of masak (6289)
11:41 masak hm, the title gets cut off in the journal...
11:46 masak (use.perl.org)-- # crippled HTML
11:46 masak no &mdash;. no &hellip;, no <h2>...
11:46 masak might as well not have HTML-like markup at all
11:47 moritz_ (use.perl.org)++ # good publicitiy anyway ;)
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11:48 masak yes, but it could easily have been typographically correct publicity
11:48 masak oh well.
11:48 moritz_ ;)
11:49 moritz_ internet and typography seldom mix very well
11:49 moritz_ too seldom
11:49 masak because of things like this :/
11:49 masak tools that don't allow you to do it right
11:50 moritz_ heck, perlmonks.org can't even print non-Latin1-characters inside code sections
11:50 moritz_ perlmonks--
11:51 masak hard to believe we're living in the 21th century
11:52 masak so perlmonks is fundamentally incompatible with Perl 6, in other words
11:52 moritz_ yes
11:53 masak perlmonks--
11:53 moritz_ (not only technically)
11:56 masak culturally too?
11:56 masak people are always against great changes, even good ones.
11:56 masak it's because a change is such an easy target to criticize
11:57 moritz_ yes
11:57 cognominal I don't know much perl site that looks like web 2.0 apart osx,isuthis.com?
11:57 cognominal osx.iusethis.com!
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11:58 cognominal it seems we ave a lack of expertise of stuff up in the stack : javascript librries, ajx, css...
11:58 masak indeed.
11:58 cognominal s/ava/have/
11:59 masak I want the Web.pm module to fix that
11:59 masak it will need some deep thinking, but it'll be fun, too!
11:59 cognominal we are too happy to play with our beloved language when it is (so far) one element of the stack.
11:59 moritz_ masak: but on the other hand I received mostly positive feedback on perl 6 stuff that I wrote on perlmonks - maybe it'll better once truely usable versions of rakudo are being released
11:59 cognominal It may change if parrot makes is ways on browers.
11:59 pmurias cognominal: into IE?
11:59 moritz_ cognominal: slashdot.org is prettymuch web2.0ish
12:00 pmurias masak: you need to be able to compile Perl 6 into javascript to have good web 2.0 support
12:00 masak moritz_: yes, of course. people are only critical because they are uninformed about the state of affairs
12:00 masak pmurias: why is that?
12:00 cognominal I love perl6 and I am wait for rakudo to be usable : inline pir, class attributes initialization is my main griefs today.
12:01 cognominal pmuris: in the iphone? the new trend is to have web on small devices
12:02 pmurias cognominal: IE = internet explorer
12:02 masak cognominal: right, I forgot to mention class attributes initialization! :)
12:03 cognominal too bad the community cannot get jonathan work rakudo full-time
12:03 moritz_ that would be great ;)
12:03 moritz_ speaking of which, what's happening with Ian Hagues' donation atm?
12:03 cognominal does pmichaid is full time on parrot?
12:03 moritz_ don't think so
12:04 cognominal allison + pmichaud + jonathan full-time would mean rakduo this christmas
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12:05 pmurias masak: it's more of an opinion than a fact, but i find it hard to believe you will be able to push much of the logic into the client withought emitting to javascript
12:05 moritz_ cognominal: not quite :/
12:05 moritz_ pushing logic to the client is dangerous and overrated, IMVHO ;)
12:05 cognominal pmurias, I don't care much of IE because  MS is so far behind in products, I am happy they employing people like spj though
12:07 cognominal I am sas that the ecmascript will be less amitious, in someway it as perl 6 like.
12:07 cognominal s/sas/sad/
12:08 masak pmurias: isn't it enough just to allow _really_ good ties to js from the Web.pm module?
12:11 pmurias if you are doing a google's maps app, i find doing the logic on the server side silly, if you just want js eye candy it's propably enough
12:12 moritz_ depends on what you mean by "logic" ;)
12:17 pmurias moritz_: ui logic, if you click on this marker, and you fullfill the given conditions you will have your data presented in this way otherwise in a different one
12:19 masak pmurias: in that case you have to emit js, yes. which means that the p6/js ties have to work as seamlessly as possible
12:19 masak I don't find anything strange about that.
12:19 masak we're moving towards a world where js is basically an assumption on the Web
12:20 moritz_ which I find really bad
12:20 masak moritz_: well, yes and no
12:20 moritz_ because sometimes I just want to read stuff, not execute programs
12:20 masak pmurias: also, I think many cases can be covered by co-opting jQuery, Prototype et al
12:21 moritz_ and when pages don't show any content without javascript, although they are at least 90% statical... I would like to shoot the responsible web developer
12:21 cognominal I love JQuery
12:21 pmurias masak: which are used for fancy effects or just general js helper
12:21 masak moritz_: it's still up to the author of the page to be sensible. I don't think the classical web is under threat from js
12:22 moritz_ a positive example is gmail - it works without javascript (not as smooth, but as good as possible)
12:22 masak pmurias: well, yes, in practice. but they can do the XmlHttpRequest stuff, too
12:22 moritz_ and I think the problem of the back-button in javascript needs to be solved
12:22 moritz_ that's something that only a handful of web apps do right
12:24 pmurias moritz_: if something is a traditional desktop app just implemented using js it's not really resonable to expect it to be a web page
12:25 moritz_ I can understand that some things don't really work well without javascript; but for example reading emails is certainly not one of them
12:26 pmurias you browse the web from you mobile?
12:26 moritz_ no
12:26 moritz_ I'm a bit retro, I guess. I don't even have a mobile
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12:27 masak moritz_++ # me neither!
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12:29 pmurias mobiles are pretty cheap those days ;)
12:29 * masak gets the hint
12:29 masak don't want one.
12:30 masak http://masak.org/carl/w/index.php/I_don%27t_want_a_mobile_phone
12:30 lambdabot Title: I don't want a mobile phone - Carls wiki
12:30 moritz_ masak: for writing that you don't like chat you're pretty active here ;)
12:31 masak moritz_: I meant the 2-person kind when I wrote that
12:31 masak for some reason, IRC chatters are much more civil than people who chat one on one
12:31 cognominal I don't want a mobile phone, I want a mobile web browser :)
12:31 masak I guess it's a cultural thing
12:33 cognominal my mobile basic phone is dead but I am tighed six more month with my providers. I don't know if I want to jump on the iphone bandwagon riht now.
12:33 masak the siren call of openmoko is actually getting to me of late: http://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/archives/300-Xmonad-on-my-mobile-phone.html
12:33 lambdabot Title: Xmonad on my mobile phone - nomeata’s mind shares, http://tinyurl.com/563fbu
12:33 * pmurias stays clear of anything apple related
12:34 masak pmurias: I can see the sense in that. and I'm writing this on a MacBook Pro.
12:34 cognominal I used my macbook as a unix box for one year and got hooked to mac specific stuff.
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12:36 cognominal I don't know if I should be proud or ashamed of it though.
12:36 moritz_ cognominal: the answer is "yes", of course ;)
12:37 cognominal But I note that the ruby on rails crowd is leveraging the power of textmate while we are stuck with vim and emacs
12:37 cognominal moritz_, I don't like the lock in, but when it provides me with more power I fall for it.
12:38 cognominal moritz_++
12:39 cognominal so I added a FSF logo to deface my macbook.
12:40 moritz_ ;)
12:41 cognominal I had not the courage to add the so bad test dynamic duo with unclear sexuality like all dynamic duos. : http://www.gnu.org/graphics/gnu-and-penguin-color-300x276.jpg
12:41 cognominal s/test/taste/
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12:42 masak cognominal: what do you mean "stuck with vim and emacs"? that's like saying "so I'm stuck with [some other state-of-the-art technology]"
12:43 masak are you sure you're using vim and emacs correctly? :P
12:43 cognominal emacs, state of the art?  I use it cause I am use to it but I know it is bad lazyness.
12:45 masak a year or so ago, I read Steve Yegge's opinions about Emacs being the hundred-year editor
12:45 masak I set out to get to know Emacs better.
12:45 masak boy, is he right.
12:45 masak not saying there couldn't be anything better, just that nothing else even comes close
12:46 moritz_ let's start an editor flamewar
12:47 masak uhm, yes -- I see that I just provided the kindle
12:47 masak sorry :P
12:47 masak (but Emacs rocks!)
12:48 cognominal elisp sucks so much... every single extension has different conventions.  Perl5 was a messy infix lisp, Perl6 is a clean lisp with a lot of new abstractions. The lisp crowd is now so bakward.   And, yea, I use emacs. One cannot be bleedin edge on everything. </flames>
12:48 masak actually, I'm fully prepared to believe that there is not One Editor for everybody. that's why we have vim, too. :)
12:49 masak cognominal: I agree that elisp is suboptimal on very many points. it's also, unfortunately, built into the editor forever.
12:50 * pmurias should switch to yi from vim
12:50 masak yes, yi looks intriguing
12:50 moritz_ wtf is yi?
12:50 moritz_ (except a province in China)
12:51 masak http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/yi.html
12:51 lambdabot Title: yi text editor
12:51 masak moritz_: and there's no province in China with that name, sorry
12:51 cognominal textmate made the choice of external extension mechanism with a very smart interface partly  based on regexes and not of thru grammars.
12:52 moritz_ masak: ah no, it's a poeple http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_people
12:52 lambdabot Title: Yi people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
12:52 cognominal soemtimes, less (here this interface) is better
12:52 masak moritz_: right.
12:53 cognominal yi, haskell, that cannot be bad.
12:53 masak cognominal: with interfaces, less is the default direction of better, I'd say
12:53 moritz_ I don't like it when the editor is smarter than me
12:53 moritz_ and understands haskell, while I don't ;)
12:54 masak is there a collective term for regex/token/rule constructs?
12:54 cognominal when I see what audreyt did with haskell and my inability to grasp much I am ashamed.
12:55 masak it's never too late!
12:55 moritz_ masak: rules
12:56 cognominal masak, larry used the term "rule" but now I think he use "regex" as the collective term saying "regex are not regular expressions". I am not sure if he uses "regex" as the plural form though.
12:57 masak I find both these suggestions ("regex", "rule") somewhat unsatisfactory
12:57 masak note that they are exactly the same as one of the elements in the collective set they are describing
12:57 masak I can see problems down that road. :P
12:58 masak "but you said regex!" -- "yes, but I _meant_ it in the sense 'regex, token or rule'"
12:58 TimToady we switched back to regex about a year ago
12:58 moritz_ maybe we should call them "patterns" ;)
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12:59 TimToady no, patterns are anything on the right side of ~~
12:59 masak rakudo: "I am but a simple string" ~~ token { string }
12:59 p6eval rakudo 30633: RESULT[{}]
12:59 TimToady sigs are patterns
12:59 moritz_ or "flas", "Formal LAnguage Specification" ;-)
12:59 cognominal pattern is the stuff in TimToady. I sense there is a strong connexion with regex but I don't not quite which.
13:00 moritz_ rakudo: "I am but a simple string" ~~ token { string }; say ~$/
13:00 cognominal or huffmanize it in rex so we can say "rex rules".
13:00 p6eval rakudo 30633: RESULT[string␤1]
13:00 moritz_ what's the 1 doing here?
13:00 cognominal I thing there was a REX something, a tool or a language, but that is probably long gone.
13:00 TimToady that's incorrect in any case
13:01 TimToady REXX is a scripting language by Mike Cowlishaw
13:01 cognominal I mean "patter the sutff in haskell"
13:01 TimToady used mostly on IBM iron
13:01 TimToady though a variant was on Amiga
13:01 cognominal so we can use "rex" :)
13:02 TimToady I think regex is a good enough generic term
13:03 moritz_ I know where the 1 come from in p6eval's output...
13:03 moritz_ the first execution of the script segfaulted
13:04 moritz_ then it was executed again, this time wrapped in (do { ... }).perl.print
13:04 masak heh :)
13:04 TimToady matching against token { foo } is specced to be equivalent to rx/ ^ foo $ /
13:04 moritz_ so it produced both "string\n" to STDOUT and then a 1 as the return value of say
13:04 TimToady so it shouldn't have matched at all
13:04 cognominal anyway, regex are what convinced me that Perl 6 is the way to go.  TimToady++
13:05 * moritz_ sense another rakudo bug
13:24 pmurias perltidy++ # "works" for haskell
13:24 pmurias it works for -Cpil1 at leat
13:24 pmurias * least ;)
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13:44 pmurias audreyt: what's the state of PIL2?
13:51 pmurias &
13:51 moritz_ weekend &
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15:04 rakudo_svn r30635 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 132 files, 2351 passing tests
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15:14 dr_df0 weekend &
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15:55 rindolf Hi all.
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16:44 audreyt pmurias: on hold until ghc 6.10, as previously mentioned
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17:12 pmurias audreyt: previously = on pugs.blogs.com
17:12 pmurias ?
17:14 pmurias audreyt: i found out perltidy formats ./pugs -Cpil1 correctly ;)
17:15 audreyt wow :)
17:18 pmurias with --noadd-semicolons
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18:35 ron Anyone around for a parrot/pir type question on a builtin ?
18:48 ron joined #perl6
18:48 [particle] i might be able to help
18:49 ron thx - working on rt problem 58150 split on empty $*IN.slurp - have at least part of the answer I think
18:51 ron on another part I noticed in Str.pir -.sub 'split' :method :multi('Perl6Str') - why the :multi ?? any idea it seems to cause some problems
18:52 [particle] that split method works on the Perl6Str type
18:52 [particle] you may want a different method if you get a 'String' type
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18:53 ron most of the stuff on the file works on some kind of string type.  For some reason reverse above uses :multi(String) and uc/lc don't use a multi declaration
18:54 ron s/on/in
18:54 [particle] native parrot strings and perl 6 strings behave a bit differently
18:54 [particle] so we use multi to deal with that
18:55 ron Just one last try before I try further research myself ... what makes split different from reverse / uc / lc ??
18:57 [particle] i'm looking closer
18:58 ron thx
19:00 [particle] i wouldn't trust it... that code was written in jan'08 (r24771)
19:01 [particle] much has changed since then, so it might not be accurate
19:01 [particle] does it work without :multi?
19:02 ron I have gottin <empty $*IN.slurp.split("\n") to work when I removed the multi and didn't see anything broken yet.
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19:05 ron thx again for looking -- didn't think of checking age since code changed ...
19:06 [particle] np, that's what i'm here for :)
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19:50 ruoso pmurias, hi
19:50 pmurias ruoso: hi
19:51 pmurias the wifi works again ;), although i have to have the door opened and it's getting cold ;)
19:52 ruoso heh... thick walls ;)
19:52 ruoso btw... have you seen the wiki page on the capture merger?
19:53 pmurias glimpsed at it looking again
19:53 * ruoso thinks &?BLOCK will change a lot the way he codes...
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19:55 * pmurias suspects loops should be used instead ;)
19:56 ruoso pmurias, is the code that bad? ;)
19:57 pmurias wiki page loading...
19:58 ruoso btw... we need to sanitize the Capture API in SMOP...
20:04 ruoso pmurias, so... do you think the approach is sane?
20:10 * ruoso home &
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21:12 pugs_svn r22065 | dr_df0++ | [spec] while.t moved from t/statements/modifies and fudged for rakudo
21:17 pugs_svn r22066 | dr_df0++ | [t/statemets] deleted while.t modifier
21:37 pugs_svn r22067 | dr_df0++ | [spec] moved all tests from t/statemens/modifiers into t/spec/S04-statement-modifiers/
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21:39 tessier__ Is perl6 still implemented in Haskell?
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22:06 [particle] tessier__: pugs is a perl 6 implementation written in haskell
22:07 [particle] rakudo is a perl 6 implementation written in perl 6 and pir (a parrot language)
22:07 [particle] there are others, written in ruby, c, perl 5, and perl 6
22:07 [particle] ...all in various states of completion
22:08 tessier__ [particle]: Bug the pugs implementation is still the furthest along?
22:08 [particle] yes but pugs development has stalled
22:09 tessier__ Odd that there are so many implementations. You may end up with a Lisp-like problem.
22:09 [particle] and rakudo is passing 2300+ tests now
22:09 [particle] there are ~19000 tests at the moment
22:10 [particle] perl 6 has a well-defined spec, and test suite
22:10 [particle] any implementation that passes the test suite is considered official perl 6
22:11 [particle] if c had a test suite, would gcc and msvc and icc pass it?
22:15 smtms of course, everybody would be using it as a regresssion test suite
22:17 tessier__ Assuming someone unbiased and with good intentions made the test suite.
22:17 [particle] and wouldn't that be  grand. at least we're starting out with one :)
22:17 tessier__ If Sun makes a Java test suite (actually, don't they?) guess what would happen?
22:18 xinming_ tessier__: No one will write any implementation. :-)
22:18 [particle] quality would improve?
22:19 pugs_svn r22068 | dr_df0++ | [spec] t/spec/S04-statemet-modifiers/if.t merged from few files and fudged for rakudo
22:20 [particle] ah, look at that. rakudo's passing more tests now :)
22:20 [particle] dr_df0++
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23:03 pugs_svn r22069 | dr_df0++ | [spec] all tests in S04-statement-modifiers fudged for rakudo plus minor changes
23:05 Lorn joined #perl6
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23:13 ruoso Hello!
23:14 Limbic_Region salutations
23:18 dr_df0 joined #perl6
23:19 dr_df0 perl6: { my $a; $a++; say $a }
23:19 p6eval rakudo 30642: OUTPUT[increment() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤current instr.: 'postfix:++' pc 14374 (src/gen_builtins.pir:9220)␤]
23:19 p6eval ..elf 22069, pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
23:27 dr_df0 joined #perl6
23:28 dr_df0 sleep &
23:28 dr_df0 left #perl6

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