Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-09-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:06 ruoso Hello!
00:06 lambdabot ruoso: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:10 ruoso @tell pmurias, memory leaks can eventually cause bugs... it's better to hunt them down...
00:10 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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01:21 * ruoso found out that there is a problem when a mold frame is executed with a slime frame as back...
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01:22 ruoso there is some bug in mold that leaves an additional reference to the back frame...
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02:29 Khisanth o_O :ratchet is the only flag without a short form?
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05:47 moritz_ Khisanth: it's implied in rule { } and in token { }
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06:42 rakudo_svn r30947 | moritz++ | [rakudo] make .rindex work on non-strings, closes RT #58644
06:42 rakudo_svn r30947 | moritz++ | Patch courtesy by Vasily Chekalkin, bacek++
06:43 pugs_svn r22197 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudged passing rindex patch for rakudo, added test for index() on
06:43 pugs_svn r22197 | moritz++ | non-Str's
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06:46 Bierwagen hi
06:46 Bierwagen can anybody help me?
06:46 moritz_ if you want Perl 6 help, probably yes
06:48 masak Bierwagen: don't ask to ask, just ask.
06:49 Bierwagen where are the differences between perl and perl 6
06:49 moritz_ there are quite many, I tried to make some points here: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6/
06:49 lambdabot Title: blog | Perlgeek.de Blog :: Category Perl-5-to-6
06:49 masak Bierwagen: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/do​cs/Perl6/Perl5/Differences.pod
06:51 Bierwagen I´m a noob at perl
06:51 masak gotta start somewhere :)
06:51 Bierwagen so can anybody say me, whats wrong
06:51 Bierwagen http://rafb.net/p/8nrPqg25.html
06:51 lambdabot Title: Nopaste - No description
06:51 moritz_ Bierwagen: that's perl 5 code
06:51 masak Bierwagen: better to ask at #perl
06:52 Bierwagen oh
06:52 moritz_ or #perlhelp or so
06:52 Bierwagen ok
06:52 Bierwagen thanks
06:52 Bierwagen bye
06:52 masak Bierwagen: good luck!
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06:52 * moritz_ was never in #perl himself, but heard some stories... scary
06:52 masak yup.
06:53 moritz_ maybe I should have recommended #perlde on irc.perl.org, considering his nick...
06:53 moritz_ too late
06:53 masak mm.
07:13 Khisanth hmm maybe having %h<foo> the auto quoting version is a good thing after all ... less work for the right pinky :)
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07:20 literal hey, I was wondering, will %h<$foo> interpolate?
07:20 moritz_ no
07:20 literal ok
07:20 moritz_ that's what %h{$foo} is for
07:21 literal yeah
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07:21 moritz_ you can use %h<<stuff_with_$ending>> though
07:21 moritz_ but that only works if $ending doesn't contain spaces, because <<...>> splits on spaces
07:21 literal I see
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07:31 pugs_svn r22198 | pmurias++ | [smop] mold_frame->back is RELEASEd
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08:08 pmurias ruoso: hi
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08:46 masak moritz_: shouldn't `m boob` be `m bood` ? :)
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08:47 * masak is suddenly overcome with relief that the Unicode consortium seemingly consists of sane people
08:49 moritz_ masak: ;)
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09:39 masak rakudo: my @x = (1,2,3,4,5); @x.pop while @x.elems > 3; say @x.perl
09:39 p6eval rakudo 30954: OUTPUT[[1, 2, 3]␤]
09:40 masak any suggestions for an easier way to get the slice @x[0..2]? :)
09:40 moritz_ implement slices?
09:40 masak "easier"
09:40 moritz_ I'll apply the patch ;)
09:41 masak I'm in user mode now, not implementor mode :)
09:42 moritz_ mode.switch('hacker')
09:42 * masak studies Chinese right now
09:42 masak I've written a short script that rehearses words with me
09:43 masak I need slices because it's more convenient to learn words 10 at a time
09:45 masak oh well. the `.pop while` version works.
09:51 moritz_ pugs: my $x = 5; { my $x = 2; say $OUTER::x; }
09:51 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[5␤]
09:51 moritz_ pugs: my $x = 5; { my $x = 2 *  $OUTER::x; say $x }
09:51 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[10␤]
09:51 moritz_ pugs: my $x = 5; { my $x = 2 * $x; say $x }
09:51 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[0␤]
09:52 moritz_ wow, all correct
09:52 moritz_ pugs++
09:57 masak in a perfect world, should that last one get a warning?
09:58 moritz_ yes
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10:33 moritz_ Auzon: did the submission of your code to google work out?
10:36 Juerd Someone requested a p3rl.org redirect but I forgot all about it
10:36 Juerd Please repeat :)
10:37 moritz_ Juerd: smop to http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop
10:37 lambdabot Title: SMOP / Perl 6
10:37 moritz_ Juerd: it was pmurias, I think
10:37 Juerd Will do; thanks for repeating
10:38 Juerd Now active
10:39 moritz_ works, thanks
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10:55 pmurias Juerd: sorry, forgot to send the email
10:55 Juerd That's okay
10:55 Juerd I forgot I asked you to
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11:43 riffraff hi
11:43 moritz_ hi
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12:02 smtms win 19
12:03 moritz_ loose 19
12:03 moritz_ that's life ;)
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14:03 pugs_svn r22199 | moritz++ | [t] moved char_by_name.t to spec/
14:08 pugs_svn r22200 | moritz++ | [t] moved char_by_number.t to spec/
14:12 moritz_ TimToady: t/syntax/pairs.t uses [,] %hash to interpolate named arguments into a capture - is that still allowed?
14:14 moritz_ uhm, seems to be used in S03 as an example, so probably yes
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14:18 pugs_svn r22201 | moritz++ | [t] moved pairs.t to spec/, fudged a bit, added a test
14:25 rakudo_svn r30966 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  spectest-progress.csv update: 158 files, 3288 passing tests
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14:32 rakudo_svn r30967 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Fix .kv method on Mapping to not stringify values (RT #58744)
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14:42 pugs_svn r22202 | moritz++ | [t] fudged pairs.t for rakudo
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14:55 rakudo_svn r30968 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add tests for pairs to spectest_regression
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15:14 speckbot r14581 | pmichaud++ | Typo fix  "last" -> "list"
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17:33 ruoso Hello!
17:33 ruoso pmurias, hi
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17:37 ruoso pmurias++ one less test leaking ;)
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18:48 TimToady moritz_: I don't see much use for attaching such extra semantic baggage to [,] anymore.  All it will do is confuse people, who are already confused enough by prefix:<|>
18:50 moritz_ aye
18:50 TimToady well, maybe I'd better read S03 first  :)
18:52 TimToady S03 contradicts itself; I'm so suprised...
18:54 TimToady but I think [,] has to have "reduce" semantics, which means [,] 1,2,3 has to put 1,2,3 into item context, which implies it means [1,2,3], not \(1,2,3), by current spec
18:54 TimToady so I'd go with the interpretation that says [,] @foo is equivalent to [@foo]
18:55 moritz_ anyway, the current semantics don't seem to make much sense
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19:03 speckbot r14582 | larry++ | inconsistent meaning of [,] noticed by moritz++
19:05 ruoso I'm having some trouble with the semantics of return values...  I mean... in SMOP I have "late context propagation". This means that the method doesn't really predict how its value will be used, but it returns a value that have the appropriate ability to be coerced to the expected contexts... this means that in "my @a = foo()" and "my $a = foo()", the sub foo will work the exact same way... but the runtime will call .List to get the value in list context and
19:05 ruoso .FETCH to get the value in item context...
19:06 ruoso all this looks Ok at first...
19:06 ruoso but then you have things like map
19:07 ruoso which returns an iterator,
19:07 ruoso that implements prefix:<=>
19:07 ruoso hmm
19:07 ruoso wait...
19:08 ruoso ok... the problem is...
19:08 moritz_ map returns a lazy list, not an iterator
19:09 ruoso moritz_, it returns a lazy list if used in list context
19:09 moritz_ ruoso: and in unkown context probably an object that stores the lazy list
19:09 moritz_ ruoso: and that knows how to respond to other contexts
19:10 ruoso moritz_, have you read the wiki page about SMOP and map?
19:10 moritz_ ruoso: no
19:10 ruoso take a look at it...
19:11 ruoso http://www.perlfoundation.org/pe​rl6/index.cgi?smop_map_operator
19:11 lambdabot Title: SMOP map operator / Perl 6
19:12 ruoso basically, the problem is that postcircumfix:<[ ]> is not very cursor-friendly
19:12 ruoso or flow-friendly...
19:12 ruoso for instance...
19:13 ruoso if map returns a list and not an iterator, it will be very hard for it to find out when it can discard the items or when it can't
19:13 ruoso a lazy list needs to store all the previously-computed-values
19:13 ruoso an iterator doesn't
19:13 ruoso thus a lazy list can be constructed using an iterator...
19:13 ruoso and so can a lazy slice
19:14 PerlJam ruoso: "needs to store" is an optimization
19:15 ruoso PerlJam, if the lazy list is being produced from a network flow...
19:15 ruoso how do you have an actual list without storing the values?
19:15 ruoso you can't always re-compute the values
19:15 ruoso which I presume is what you meant...
19:16 ruoso the problem is that you can't really know where your data is coming from...
19:17 ruoso I think the feed operators stress that concept a lot
19:18 ruoso but anyway...
19:18 ruoso the map block might return an item or a list
19:18 ruoso as well as any code block
19:19 ruoso but eventually, you want to take it as a list, and it is just a single item
19:20 PerlJam ruoso: that's what I was implying ... but I guess at some point you do have to know where your data is coming from.  (If you could, how would you query a list for its properties to know what it is and is not capable of?)
19:20 moritz_ so all this complexity because you don't have exceptions?
19:21 ruoso PerlJam, considering all the polymorphism Perl 6 supports, you have to assume you can't infer where the data is coming from...
19:21 ruoso moritz_, I don't get it... what do exceptions have to do with it?
19:22 moritz_ ruoso: they make the "proper" iterating scheme impossible, don't they?
19:22 ruoso moritz_, they do? why?
19:23 moritz_ ruoso: because you can't just say "I want the next value" and catch the exception if it doesn't work?
19:25 ruoso moritz_, sorry... I still don't see your point... the semantics I'm proposing presume exceptions in the future, they are not designed in a way to circumvent the absense of exceptions...
19:25 ruoso the problem I'm facing is if I should assume that every return is, at first, a list of values...
19:25 PerlJam moritz_: I think it's the "i want the next value" that's the problem.  (i.e., it's not the exceptional case that gives grief, but the common case)
19:25 ruoso yes...
19:26 ruoso specially when it's one value, no values or three values
19:26 ruoso which is a common usage for map
19:26 ruoso or grep...
19:26 PerlJam or any lazy thing :)
19:26 ruoso because in list context, that is flattened, but in slice context, you have the return of each individual iteration
19:27 ruoso that is the tricky part
19:27 ruoso and all that also lazy
19:29 Khisanth speaking of flattening ...
19:29 Khisanth moritz_: why do you refer to that as interpolation instead?
19:30 moritz_ Khisanth: on the blog?
19:30 Khisanth yes
19:30 moritz_ because that's what perl people call it :/
19:30 [particle] what if lists are coroutines that yield values?
19:31 ruoso considering "my $a = @a" allows you to access the array directly... how do you tell the difference between { my @a = (1,2,3); my $b = @a; $b } and { my @a = (1,2,3); my @b = @a; @b } ?
19:31 Khisanth moritz_: erm perl 6 people?
19:31 ruoso [particle], that doesn't solve the problem on how to iterate... only how to implement the iteration...
19:32 moritz_ Khisanth: also perl 5 people
19:32 * Khisanth has never seen anyone call that interpolation
19:32 * ruoso neither
19:33 moritz_ have you never read the perl documentation?
19:34 moritz_ perldoc perlop
19:34 moritz_ search for interpolate
19:35 moritz_ same for various perl\d+delta.pod and perlre
19:37 Khisanth erm that is all for "foo $bar" type stuff in perlop
19:37 moritz_ and it's not what I mean in the blog?
19:38 * moritz_ is thoroughly confused
19:38 Khisanth I am referring to "By default arrays aren't interpolated in argument lists, so unlike in Perl 5 you can write something like this:"
19:39 moritz_ ah, capture interpolation
19:39 moritz_ in perl 5 there is no such thing
19:40 moritz_ http://perlcabal.org/syn/S03.ht​ml#Argument_List_Interpolating # that's where I got the name from
19:40 lambdabot Title: S03
19:40 pmichaud ruoso:   my $b = @a;  is item assignment,  my @b = @a;  is list assignment
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19:41 pmichaud as such,  $b does not interpolate into a list, while @b will.
19:44 * Khisanth wonders which of the meanings of calling functions with & the author of S03 is referring to
19:44 moritz_ pugs: my $x = (1, 2); say (3, $x, 4).perl
19:44 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[(3, \(1, 2), 4)␤]
19:44 moritz_ pugs: my $x = (1, 2); say (3, $x, 4).elems
19:44 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[3␤]
19:45 moritz_ Khisanth: maybe &func(@args) which turns off prototype checking
19:45 Khisanth I am aware of that
19:46 ruoso pmichaud, right... I get that... but how do I differentiate that in the lowlevel?
19:47 pmichaud ruoso: I haven't completely figured that out myself yet.  That's why [1, [2, 3]] isn't working in Rakudo at the moment.
19:47 ruoso should I assume that every return value is a list?
19:47 pmichaud well, it acts mostly like an argument list
19:48 pmichaud in particular,   return (3,4)    and return(3,4)  aren't exactly the same.  :-)
19:48 pmichaud (same as   say (3,4)   and say(3,4)   do different things)
19:49 ruoso they do?
19:49 ruoso :D
19:49 moritz_ shouldn't it just return a capture that flattens in list context but not in slice context?
19:49 pmichaud moritz:  that's my thinking, yes.
19:50 pmichaud in other words, it's the same as any other call semantics, except 'return' is actually doing a "call back to the caller" and passing some arguments
19:50 [particle] that's the cps-way
19:50 pmichaud the caller then receives the arguments (conceptually in the form of a capture) and binds thems to the calling parameter list
19:50 [particle] return is just call. there is no return.
19:50 ruoso SMOP implements it as cps
19:50 [particle] no *distinct* return
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19:52 ruoso pmichaud,  "[1,[2,3]]"  is actually a very precise example... how do I differentiate "[1,[2,3]]" from "(1,(2,3))"?
19:53 * ruoso considering the first appears as a list of two items even in list context and the second a list of three items in list context
19:53 pmichaud (2,3) is a List
19:53 pmichaud [2,3] is an Array
19:53 moritz_ I think that the first one is actually an array
19:53 moritz_ right
19:54 pmichaud [1,[2,3]]  is an Array of two elements
19:54 pmichaud (1, (2, 3))  in list context is a List of three elements
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19:54 ruoso pmichaud, and [1,[2,3]] in List context?
19:55 pmichaud is an Array -- equivalent to  [[1,[2,3]]]
19:56 pmichaud (note extra brackets)
19:56 ruoso so the distinction of Array and List is the stopper for the flattening?
19:56 pmichaud not completely -- there's something more to it
19:56 moritz_ but otoh my @a = 1, 2; my @b = 3; @b.push(@a). Now @b == 3, right?
19:56 pmichaud moritz_: I think not.
19:57 pmichaud I think +@b == 2
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19:57 pmichaud oops, I'm wrong
19:57 pmichaud @b == 3 because @a is evaluated in flattening list context
19:57 lambdabot Maybe you meant: b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug . ? @ v
19:57 pmichaud (because .push has a slurpy array parameter)
19:58 moritz_ ok, but @b.push([1,2]) would result in +@b == 2, right?
19:58 pmichaud yes.
19:58 moritz_ but we push an exaclty equivalent array, aren't we?
19:58 pmichaud ruoso: the reason I think there's something more is that even if we say @b is an Array, @b will flatten in list context
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19:59 ruoso I think I found the confusing point...
19:59 pmichaud ISTR that TimToady mentioned something about "scalar Arrays", so that [1,2] is a scalar Array, while @b is just an Array
19:59 ruoso we have an indecision on how much power the sigil has
19:59 pmichaud the sigil determines what the variable is allowed to bind to
20:00 pmichaud $ can bind to anything.  @ binds to things that implement the Positional role.   % binds to things that have the Associative role.
20:00 ruoso it also implies the potential contexts the variable can be used
20:00 ruoso @ implies flattening
20:01 moritz_ pugs: my @a = [1, 2]; say @a.elems
20:01 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
20:01 moritz_ pugs: my @a := [1, 2]; say @a.elems
20:01 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
20:01 pmichaud pugs:  my @a = (1,2);  say elems @a;
20:01 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[2␤]
20:02 pmichaud pugs:  my @a := [1,2];  say elems @a;
20:02 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[1␤]
20:02 ruoso pugs seems to use Array × List  as the key
20:02 moritz_ rakudo: my @a := [1, 2]; say @a.elems
20:02 p6eval rakudo 30973: OUTPUT[2␤]
20:03 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = [1, 2]; say @a.elems
20:03 p6eval rakudo 30973: OUTPUT[1␤]
20:03 pmichaud (phone)
20:03 moritz_ somewho rakudo's output feels right
20:04 ruoso TimToady, is it?
20:04 moritz_ ruoso: they're having their design minutes now, perhaps they'll discuss it on phone
20:04 ruoso oh... great...
20:05 ruoso rakudo: my @a = (1,2) ; say elems @a;
20:05 p6eval rakudo 30973: OUTPUT[2␤]
20:05 ruoso just sanity checking ;)
20:05 ruoso If that's correct... than List is a very special type...
20:06 ruoso and I can assume that every item can be seen as a list of a single element...
20:07 ruoso with the exception of the magical "List" type, which is the only thing that appears as an effective List
20:07 ruoso and I think that solves all my questions...
20:08 ruoso in SMOP, every value is a read-only scalar of itself and is also a list of itself...
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20:13 ruoso an Array in List context is also a list of a single element... a "scalar Array" as pmichaud pointed out that TimToady pointed out...
20:13 ruoso ;)
20:13 ruoso and that means I have my sanity back :D
20:14 ruoso and with that... I should go home  &
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23:33 wknight8111 where is the best source for Perl 6 info? Is it the synopses at this point?
23:35 PerlJam wknight8111: what sort of info do you want?
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23:41 literal wknight8111: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6/
23:41 lambdabot Title: blog | Perlgeek.de Blog :: Category Perl-5-to-6
23:43 wknight8111 yeah, I've read over that entire series
23:43 wknight8111 that's a good source, thanks
23:43 Tene synopses and test suite
23:43 PerlJam wknight8111: there's also the various perl6 articles on perl.com
23:44 PerlJam wknight8111: but the synopses are best for understanding the way the language should be.
23:44 wknight8111 I'm planning to start writing a book about Perl 6 on Wikibooks, and I want to make sure I'm getting all the best information about it
23:44 Tene Synopses and the test suite
23:45 wknight8111 yeah, the dreaded test suite.
23:45 PerlJam wknight8111: what Tene said for sure then

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