Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-09-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:38 scrottie awwaiid:  just FYI, the MUD is up again... but not the IRC proxy.  I'll have to install modules for a while to get that going again.
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02:03 Schwern What's the syntax for a subroutine parameter that has both a trait and a default?
02:04 Schwern sub foo ($arg = 42 is rw)?  sub foo ($arg is rw = 42)?  Neither looks right.
02:07 Schwern Parrot accepts sub foo($arg is copy = 42) but I have a feeling that's by mistake rather than by design.
02:07 Schwern s/mistake/accident/
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06:46 Ontolog moritz_: !!!
06:47 Ontolog pmichaud: !!!
07:02 Ontolog wrt regexps: [ ... ] has changed its meaning from perl5 to perl6?
07:03 Ontolog like "cat" ~~ /[hat]/ wouldn't match??
07:09 Ontolog hmm, i see not its "cat" ~~ /<[hat]>/ yes?
07:09 Ontolog s/not/now
07:11 literal yup
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07:13 literal and it looks like they changed the range syntax as well, now it's <[A..Z]>
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07:20 Ontolog interesting...
07:20 Ontolog I wonder what is the point of something like <null>
07:21 Ontolog when would you ever use something that always matches??
07:22 moritz_ as a default
07:22 moritz_ sub check_something($some_param, $regex = /<null>/) { ... }
07:23 Ontolog hrm... i see
07:23 Ontolog nice to see you are in moritz_
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07:23 Ontolog did you see my latest patch?
07:24 moritz_ yes, but no time yet to test/review/apply
07:25 pmurias ruoso: re running the node instead of emitting it, you mean in memory (pugs embedding smop) or just supporting -B?
07:25 pmurias s/node/mold/
07:27 Ontolog moritz_: a bunch of tests failed but i don't think it has anything to do with my changes
07:28 Ontolog moritz_: many tests not related to split fail, also the split test fails like this: t/spec/S29-str/split......Statement not terminated properly at line 118, near "split_test"
07:31 moritz_ Ontolog: yes, split.t uses meta operators which aren't yet implemented in rakudo
07:31 moritz_ Ontolog: which is why I write split-simple.t
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07:45 Ontolog split.t normally passes
07:46 rakudo_svn r31333 | moritz++ | [rakudo] fix prototype of Any.split(Str), and implement the limit argument.
07:46 rakudo_svn r31333 | moritz++ | Ontolog++, patch courtesy by Chris Davaz
07:46 Ontolog i'm saying that something else has gone wrong and all sorts of test are failing
07:46 moritz_ Ontolog: since when?
07:46 Ontolog since today i just tried
07:46 Ontolog let me get the rev number
07:46 moritz_ I mean split.t passing
07:46 Ontolog 31220
07:46 moritz_ I have a clean 'make spectest_regression' both with and without the patch
07:47 Ontolog hmm... why am i getting failures
07:47 Ontolog strange
07:47 moritz_ did you try a 'make realclean' in the parrot dir?
07:47 moritz_ and then rebuild
07:47 Ontolog nope i'll do that
07:50 zophy[] is there a perl6 drop in replacement for perl5 ?
07:51 moritz_ not yet
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07:54 Ontolog after rebuilding a clean parrot, `make` in languages/perl6 doesn't work
07:54 Ontolog no rule to make target
07:54 moritz_ did Configure.pl succeed?
07:54 Ontolog oops! sorry idiocy on my part
07:55 Ontolog only did configure actually i didn't `make` parrot
07:58 pmurias audreyt: ping
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08:42 Ontolog why use the binding assignment here? my $past := PAST::Block.new( :blocktype('declaration'), :node( $/ ) );
08:43 moritz_ because NQP doesn't support assignment
08:44 Ontolog interesting
08:44 Ontolog where is $/ documented?
08:45 Ontolog i have no idea what it is but i see it everywhere
08:45 moritz_ it's the match object described in S05
08:46 Ontolog ah, i see, i'll take a gander
08:46 Ontolog btw my tests are still failing!
08:46 Ontolog i did a clean build and everything
08:47 moritz_ which tests are failing?
08:48 Ontolog for example on split.t I get t/spec/S29-str/split......Statement not terminated properly at line 118, near "split_test"
08:48 Ontolog i will run another spectest_regression and see the others
08:49 moritz_ Ontolog: split.t isn't part of 'spectest_regression'
08:49 Ontolog really?
08:49 Ontolog oops
08:50 Ontolog but i did have tests in spectest_regression getting the same kind of failure
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09:10 Ontolog yay tests pass
09:12 Ontolog if I have something like: method statement($/) { ... } does this mean statement() wants to change the value of $/ for the caller?
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09:20 moritz_ no...
09:21 moritz_ but if it's called from a regex, it can change the caller's $/ by calling 'make'
09:22 Ontolog ahh so that's what that 'make' is for haha
09:22 Ontolog thanks
09:26 Ontolog I thought rules are just regular expressions, so why do we have something like: rule assignment { <primary> '=' <expression> } where the '=' is quoted
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09:26 Ontolog if I have $string ~~ /'='/ isn't that going to match all 3 characters literally?
09:27 Juerd It is
09:28 Juerd Oh, this is #perl6
09:28 Juerd No, it'll match just a single =
09:28 Juerd Ontolog: Regex language has been re-invented, entirely.
09:29 Juerd Ontolog: See p3rl.org/S05
09:29 moritz_ Ontolog: in Perl 6 regexes all non-word charcters needs to be quoted to match literally
09:30 Juerd Quoted or escaped
09:30 Ontolog ahhh
09:30 Ontolog why? haha
09:30 Ontolog in case we want to use them in future syntax?
09:30 Juerd Ontolog: See p3rl.org/S05
09:30 Ontolog it's SO BIG
09:31 Juerd Ontolog: That, and predictability of the language
09:31 Ontolog i was looking at it but it's just too much
09:31 Juerd You don't have to read it all today
09:31 Juerd Take your time :)
09:31 Ontolog baby steps
09:31 Ontolog haha
09:32 Ontolog I also don't really understand what {*} does
09:32 Ontolog and that one is not in s05
09:32 moritz_ Ontolog: it calls a method of the same name in the action grammar
09:33 Juerd It's a very short way to say: do something here
09:33 Ontolog i see
09:33 Ontolog so it only calls the method if it is next to a part that matches?
09:34 moritz_ the regexes are worked from left to right
09:34 Juerd At least conceptually
09:34 moritz_ if everything on the left matched, the method that corresponds to {*} is called
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09:34 Ontolog for example: rule expression { | <string_constant> {*} | <integer_constant> {*} } here does {*} get called once or twice?
09:34 moritz_ Ontolog: since only one of the alternatives matches, only once
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09:45 ruoso @tell pmurias running as embedding, creating the mold object, then the frame, goto'ing to it and then running the interpreter loop... without generating and compiling C code... (that should allow us to have an evalbot)
09:45 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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11:36 pmurias @tell ruoso i guess i could make pugs do it as i'm blocked on the lack of declarations in PIL1
11:36 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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11:47 Ontolog xiaoyafeng: hey man
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13:48 diakopter raiph: did you need something
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13:51 diakopter pmurias: howdy; what's the news
13:51 pmurias diakopter: howdy
13:51 lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:52 pmurias diakopter: i'm fighting pugs not having my declarations in the intermediate language in order to make variables for in the pugs smop backend
13:53 masak Ontolog: re #59184, it's known to the extent that at least one other RT ticket talks about precision (namely #57790)
13:53 * diakopter blinks at "pugs smop backend"
13:53 * diakopter been away for a while
13:54 pmurias you know what smop is?
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13:56 diakopter :)
13:56 diakopter sorta; I went away before ruoso's return
13:56 pmurias www.p3rl.org/smop
13:58 masak @tell Ontolog re #59184, it's known to the extent that at least one other RT ticket talks about precision (namely #57790)
13:58 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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14:04 masak perl6: while * { say "What-EVER!"; exit }
14:04 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[What-EVER!␤*** Unsafe function 'exit' called under safe mode␤    at /tmp/a9bdRs5NCy line 1, column 29-34␤]
14:04 p6eval ..elf 22308: OUTPUT[Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::whatever called at (eval 121) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
14:04 p6eval ..rakudo 31334: OUTPUT[What-EVER!␤]
14:04 masak why would 'exit' be unsafe?
14:05 masak anyway, I was going to ask if people think that 'while *' will be a common idiom in Perl 6...
14:05 masak ...but then I remembered that 'loop' already does that :P
14:05 moritz_ masak: because the old evalbot didn't spawn a separate process, or something
14:06 masak moritz_: ok. so there's no reason for it anymore?
14:06 masak so, if I got a round tuit, no-one would complain if I removed 'exit' from some list of unsafe functions?
14:07 moritz_ I don't see how that could hurt
14:08 masak where is p6eval, btw?
14:09 masak examples/network/evalbot/ ?
14:09 masak or misc/evalbot/ ?
14:09 moritz_ masak: that's the old one. The new one lives in misc/evalbot/
14:09 masak oki
14:13 pmurias diakopter: once pugs can compile perl6 to m0ld (smop assembly language) it should be much easier to add functionality to smop
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14:17 Ontolog perlbot: what did masak say?
14:17 lambdabot Ontolog: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:17 Ontolog oops it's lambdabot
14:17 Ontolog yes i took a look at those tickets
14:17 Ontolog i'm not sure if they are related in any way
14:18 masak they are.
14:18 Ontolog moritz_ says it's about stringifying integers
14:18 masak Ontolog: if you go above 1e6, Parrot starts losing precision
14:18 Ontolog ohhhh
14:18 Ontolog i see sorry
14:18 moritz_ with integers?
14:18 Ontolog so that's why the number gets parsed out all funny
14:19 masak Ontolog: aye.
14:19 pugs_svn r22309 | masak++ | [src/Pugs/Prim.hs] promoted &exit into a safe function
14:19 Ontolog moritz_: 102030405.split(0)
14:19 Ontolog rakudo_svn: 102030405.split(0).perl
14:19 Ontolog rakudo_svn: 102030405.split(0)
14:19 moritz_ rakudo: say 102030405.split(0).perl
14:19 Ontolog perl6: 102030405.split(0)
14:19 p6eval rakudo 31334: OUTPUT[["1.", "2", "3e+", "8"]␤]
14:19 p6eval pugs: RESULT[("0",)]
14:19 p6eval ..rakudo 31334: RESULT[["1.", "2", "3e+", "8"]]
14:19 p6eval ..elf 22308: OUTPUT[Can't call method "split" without a package or object reference at (eval 115) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
14:20 masak moritz_: yes, with integers. Parrot sort of gives up and treats it as a floating-point number
14:20 Ontolog 1.23e+8 haha
14:20 moritz_ masak: that's bad. 1e6 isn't even close to 2**31-1, or whatever INT_MAX is
14:20 masak Ontolog: no, 1.0203e+08 :)
14:20 Ontolog 1.0203e+08?
14:20 Ontolog yes
14:21 moritz_ rakudo: say 102030405.split(/0/).perl
14:21 p6eval rakudo 31334: OUTPUT[["1.", "2", "3e+", "8"]␤]
14:21 Ontolog rakudo: say 102.split(0).perl
14:21 p6eval rakudo 31334: OUTPUT[["1", "2"]␤]
14:21 Ontolog rakudo: say 10203.split(0).perl
14:21 p6eval rakudo 31334: OUTPUT[["1", "2", "3"]␤]
14:21 Ontolog rakudo: say 1020304.split(0).perl
14:21 p6eval rakudo 31334: OUTPUT[["1.", "2", "3e+", "6"]␤]
14:22 moritz_ perl 5 preserves 100000000000000, but converts 1000000000000000 to 1e+15
14:26 Ontolog moritz_: I'll get on updating that test script (yeah I know manual testing doesn't scale =p)
14:26 Ontolog what is #?DOES 4
14:26 Ontolog it looks like we can take out the #rakudo skip line for there
14:26 Ontolog but i'm not sure what #?DOES 4 does
14:26 moritz_ if it works, take it out
14:27 moritz_ it just tells the preprocessor that there are 4 skipped/todo'ed tests in that block
14:27 moritz_ Ontolog: you can simply remove the #?DOES 4 and the #?rakudo skip line+
14:28 moritz_ four more passing tests ;)
14:29 Ontolog moritz_: yep, i'll add some more tests about the limit stuff and send it to you tomorrow
14:29 Ontolog gotta go to bed now
14:30 moritz_ Ontolog: you can commit those changes yourself, the test files live ini the pugs repo
14:30 masak Ontolog: sweet precision dreams
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14:30 masak moritz_: it _is_ bad. I'm longing to write my MD5 routines, but with this low precision roof, I can't use all the cool bit operators in Perl 6
14:30 masak instead, I have to fake them using strings
14:31 pugs_svn r22310 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudge some tests in split-simple.t, implemented and noted by
14:31 pugs_svn r22310 | moritz++ | Ontolog++
14:31 Ontolog moritz_: ohh yeah forgot about that
14:31 moritz_ masak: if you want anything close to sanity, you'll be using NCI and a C implementation
14:31 masak moritz_: good idea.
14:31 pugs_svn r22311 | putter++ | [elfish/on_sbcl] README corrections (minor).
14:32 masak I haven't looked deeper into that, but maybe I'll do it in connection with the upcoming mysql NCI adventures
14:38 pmichaud low precision:  the low precision only occurs when stringifying numbers
14:38 pmichaud more precisely, when stringifying floats
14:38 moritz_ rakudo: say 10000000
14:38 p6eval rakudo 31334: OUTPUT[1e+07␤]
14:39 moritz_ rakudo: say 10000000.WHAT
14:39 p6eval rakudo 31334: OUTPUT[Int␤]
14:39 pmichaud you're actually missing a couple of important steps there :-)
14:39 pmichaud the process of converting "1000000" to a number involves a Float.
14:39 moritz_ ouch
14:39 Ontolog is there some way to test "ab1cd12ef".split(/\d+/, 10000000000000000) doesn't iterate 10000000000000000 times?
14:40 pmichaud why would it iterate 100000000 times?  If it does, that's wrong.
14:40 Ontolog of course
14:40 Ontolog that's what i want to write a test for
14:40 pmichaud I mean, if it would even be possible, then it's implemented wrong
14:40 Ontolog yes it's not implemented that way of course i just want to test edge cases
14:40 moritz_ Ontolog: you could, with some regex magic that's not implemented yet in rakudo
14:40 pmichaud tests typically only look at correct output values, not performance.
14:41 pmichaud (unless the construct is a performance-related item.)
14:41 Ontolog i guess i'll skip this one then
14:41 moritz_ with a code assertion that increments a counter, for example
14:41 Ontolog moritz_: interesting... i'll check it out once that 'magic' is implemented
14:41 pmichaud phrased another way:  there's nothing in the spec that says that 'split' cannot iterate 10000000000000 times :-)
14:42 moritz_ pmichaud: except the "where not specced, same as perl 5" part - if perl 5 doesn't 10000000000000 times, Perl 6 may not either ;-)
14:43 pmichaud if there's a perl 5 test that verifies that split doesn't iterate 100000000000 times, I might buy that argument.  :-)
14:44 masak I'm glad we got this sorted out.
14:44 masak :P
14:44 pmichaud anyway, the problem with large ints and floats is RT #59006.  I'm a little disappointed that it's being warnocked.
14:45 masak I'm more disappointed that #58392 is being warnocked.
14:45 moritz_ let me guess: recursion/lexicals?
14:45 masak moritz_: aye :(
14:45 pmichaud masak: I've heard you.  My response would be "this is a hard problem."
14:45 masak moritz_: soon you too will know that ticket number by heart.
14:45 moritz_ masak: aye
14:46 pmichaud so, I can de-warnock it by responding that solving it is going to be really tough.
14:46 masak pmichaud: yes, I understand.
14:46 masak pmichaud: all publicity is good publicity :)
14:46 moritz_ maybe that's a topic for tomorrow's #ps?
14:46 pmichaud moritz_: probably not, other than if people want to carp at me that it's not solved yet.  :-|
14:46 masak got to go -- there's a lecture about China's idea history in 15 minutes
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14:47 pmichaud I was going to see about fixing array, hash, and object references today, but I guess I could switch over to coming up with the new lexicals draft instead.
14:47 moritz_ pmichaud: "If you or Carl can provide a PIR program which exhibits he problem, I'll fix
14:47 moritz_ it." -- chromatic
14:48 pmichaud "the problem" in this case is a completely broken lexicals design
14:48 pmichaud (in Parrot)
14:48 moritz_ :-(
14:48 pmichaud so while I might be able to come up with a PIR program that evokes the bug, I'm doubtful it can be "fixed"
14:48 pmichaud at least, not by a simple patch.
14:49 pmichaud just a sec, I'll find the (incredibly long) thread that talks about the problem :-)
14:50 pmichaud (also, Jonathan provided a PIR program in #58392. :-)
14:50 moritz_ I know, that's why I quoted chromatic
14:51 pmichaud RT #56398 talks about the various problems with Parrot's lexicals implementation, but it'll make your eyes glaze over.
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14:53 pugs_svn r22312 | cdavaz++ | Added limit tests to split-simple.t
14:55 moritz_ Ontolog: I believe these tests are not quite correct
14:56 Ontolog moritz_: really?
14:56 Ontolog what's wrong
14:56 moritz_ Ontolog: if the limit is present, the last item should contain the rest of the string
14:56 moritz_ $ perl -wle 'print for split /\d/, "a1b2d343r",  2'
14:56 moritz_ a
14:56 moritz_ b2d343r
14:57 Ontolog haha then my implementation is not correct
14:57 Ontolog didn't realize that
14:57 moritz_ it's not specced in S29, so it's only by analogy
14:58 moritz_ anyway, I'm not angry if you sleep first ;)
14:58 Ontolog :p thanks! gotta get to bed my wife is getting annoyed
14:58 Ontolog looks like i got something to do tomorrow
14:58 moritz_ ;)
14:59 * Ontolog &
15:03 pmichaud can RT #59064 be closed?
15:07 moritz_ aye
15:12 moritz_ pmichaud: are you doing it, or should I?
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15:31 mncharity Ontolog: if you are still around, a response to your "p6 development seems unfocused" observation of yesterday(?) is getting sketched out.
15:31 mncharity been a while since I did a #perl6 missive. ;)
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15:35 mncharity Ontolog: re Perl 6 "project" focus, my take on what you are seeing is this.  Big picture, P6 has three parts.  Language design, Parrot, and Pugs.  You are living inside the infrastructure Pugs built.  svn, evalbots, test suite, #perl6.
15:35 mncharity 100+ people worked on Pugs.  1 of them was a critical.  Since aside from being technically critical, they also provided community focus, leadership, and project management, as they started to phase out, there wasn't enough management or leadership left to address it or recover.
15:36 mncharity Little-p pugs stopped one step short of making replacing it straightforward.  It's parser doesn't export oo information, and it's not robust enough to run a parser- or compiler-sized program.
15:37 mncharity Since then, the shape of Pugs has been dominated by three inter-related factors.  Lack of momentum, extreme scarcity of developers, and absence of any leader with a technical vision widely considered plausible, and the time commitment to build a community around it.
15:37 mncharity There are various technical (wiki), social (perl culture), and historical ("Parrot is Perl 6, yes?") why this hasn't been easier, but that's a separate topic.
15:38 mncharity Parrot seems to be dominated by the same 3 factors.  Though the symptoms are different.  Pugs is stuck on a blocker (parsing).  Parrot is happening slowly.
15:38 mncharity All the little non-Parrot projects you see are attempts to pick up the Pugs pieces.
15:39 mncharity There have always been lots of workable approaches.  But you get the following effect.  If someone has what you believe is a flawed approach, but there is momentum and effort behind it, you don't mind the flaws.  If it's good enough to make progress on, then it can be used to build something better.
15:40 mncharity Specifically, when you hit bugs that block what you are trying to do, there is the prospect of their being rapidly fixed, instead of killing your project for months, or squandering your effort looking for workarounds.  For a couple of weeks, pugs was "you find a bug, we strive to have it fixed the same day".
15:41 mncharity So that leaves people working on projects they believe in, and for which they can easily address blockers.  So you get one and two people projects in Pugs.  Plus bottom-up "it won't work, and doesn't need to, until late in the project" Parrot.
15:42 mncharity excess comma
15:42 mncharity So that leaves people working on projects they believe in, and for which they can easily address blockers.  So you get one and two people projects in Pugs.  Plus bottom-up "it won't work, and doesn't need to until late in the project" Parrot.
15:43 mncharity So, taking myself as an example developer, the whether/where I should work equation looks like this.  With a parser grammar done, and perhaps the oo core at least largely speced, Language design no longer seems on the short-term critical path.
15:43 mncharity That leaves various Pugs bits, and Parrot.  There are four potentially active Pugs bits.  Two top-down (elf and kp6) and one bottom-up (smop) pugs replacements, and the potential for pugs itself to wake up.  I don't consider kp6 viable, and at this point, elf seems clearly better.
15:44 mncharity Smop definitely helps shake down the oo core spec, and might make an nice backend.  But it's only a backend.  Currently using the old mortibund oo-less pugs parser.  So it either needs to get a working frontend, elf, rakudo, or awakened pugs, or it can build out to being a complete implementation (hard).
15:44 mncharity So while useful, it doesn't seem to have near-term potential for attracting developers back to p6.
15:45 mncharity On the Parrot side, regardless of what one thinks of the parrot vm, rakudo is not yet at a place where you can sit down and write major p6 at it.  It's not quite where pugs was some years ago, able to run lots of programs, but not large ones, and struggling to move the prelude into being p6.
15:46 mncharity And for myself, the historical rakudo bottom-up PIR-based approach to language implementation has the double wammy of my thinking it badly flawed, and zeros the chance that my blocking bugs will get any of the scarce parrot resources.  So rakudo may plod to becoming a pugs replacement, and get Pugs unstuck that way.  But this doesn't seem a short-term prospect, or a good place to allocate my own time.  If it was the only p6 game in
15:46 mncharity no doubt clipping
15:47 mncharity But this doesn't seem a short-term prospect, or a good place to allocate my own time.  If it was the only p6 game in town, I'd punt on p6.
15:47 mncharity So that leaves me working on elf.  Which I believe quite close to becoming a pugs substitute sufficient to get Pugs unstuck and, hopefully, attract developers back to p6.  Haskell could well be a better core language for a p6 compiler than p6.  But the chances of attracting hs developers seems even smaller.
15:50 mncharity second half of that was a bit rough.  still missing some core concepts - ie, trying to attract p6 compiler developers to pugs or elf in the near future, vs just waiting for parrot to mature.  but, that's my quick take on why things look like they do, p6 implementation(s) wise.
15:54 mncharity questions/comments/thoughts/musings/whatever, as always, would be most welcome. :)
15:56 Juerd mncharity: I'm not sure if IRC is the best platform for writing a book ;)
15:56 mncharity spinclad: avar: pmurias: anyone else: elfish/on_smop now has oo working well enough that the p6/cl hybrid prelude is being fleshed out.  feel free to jump in.
15:58 mncharity Juerd: :)  yeah, it did get long.  but the first half at least seemed contentful, rather than low density.
15:59 mncharity besides, my doing big picture irc notes is a tradition. ;)  even if it's been a long while since the last.
15:59 avar mncharity: yeah I saw that cl stuff
16:01 mncharity re cl stuff, as of last night, oo seems usable.  sufficient for a hopefully-rsn elf bootstrap at least.
16:02 mncharity hmm, rsn in development time.  calendar time is less clear.
16:04 cognominal mncharity, is there any place where there is a comparative description of the project you site. Most people have no knowledge of anything but pugs and parrot.
16:04 cognominal s/site./cite?/
16:04 avar svn down?
16:05 mncharity avar: thoughts/feedback/comments/critiques/whatever would be most welcome.  ruby polite bluntness, python professionalism (or MIT not necessarily polite bluntness:).  No need for the talk around issues, avoid disagreements, etc, which sometimes seems to characterize Pugs at least.
16:07 avar o_O
16:07 mncharity cognominal: I'm unclear on what "the project you cite" refers to?
16:07 avar elfish
16:08 mncharity comparison of elf with {pugs, parrot}?
16:09 pmurias mncharity: hi
16:10 mncharity hi pmurias
16:10 pmurias smop has a very limited elf frontend
16:10 cognominal I meant plural: elf, smop and kp6
16:12 mncharity not that I know of.
16:12 moritz_ avar: re svn down, now up again
16:12 moritz_ (had to delete some semaphores)
16:12 cognominal Speaking of manpower, I think parrot will attract more people once decent language implementation other than Perl 6 will be available.
16:12 mncharity smop has some pages on the perl socialtext wiki.  elf has http://perl.net.au/wiki/Elf but little comparison.  kp6, not that I know of.
16:12 lambdabot Title: Elf - PerlNet
16:13 cognominal this generality has slowed down parrot but this is an asset in the long term.
16:13 pmurias kp6 is dead
16:13 moritz_ Juerd: iirc you have script that kill -9's apache on feather - it should also free semaphores, similar to http://blog.eukhost.com/webhosting/mod_rewrite-could-not-create-rewrite_log_lock/
16:13 lambdabot Title: mod_rewrite: could not create rewrite_log_lock | UK Web Hosting | Linux Windows  ..., http://tinyurl.com/3uv25a
16:13 pasteling "avar" at 208.78.101.240 pasted "elfish fail" (34 lines, 1.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/32248
16:14 moritz_ Juerd: what I did now was ipcs -s | grep www-data |perl -nle 'm/(1\d+)/ && print $1'|xargs sudo ipcrm sem
16:14 avar urgm
16:14 mncharity cognominal: do you have any particular languages in mind?
16:15 cognominal no.
16:15 cognominal to my knowledge, none has attained a critical mass.
16:16 Juerd moritz_: Please change the script
16:16 mncharity was that a 'another language will help attract developers' 'to maintain parrot once p6 is working', or 'to develop parrot and get to p6 working'?
16:16 Juerd moritz_: /usr/local/bin/incredibly_ugly_hack_to_restart_apache
16:16 mncharity or both. :)
16:18 moritz_ Juerd: ok, done
16:19 moritz_ trying it now
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16:20 cognominal mncharity, both,  for example .hll_map is clearly is a parrot thing to make diffirent language to communicate.
16:21 cognominal different languages...
16:21 mncharity ok, let's see....  python seems a non-starter culturally.  ruby seems unlikely resource-wise, there are several fish frying, and parrot doesn't offer much beyond what already exists for ruby.  javascript is headed full speed the other way, towards wizzy custom jits.
16:21 Juerd moritz_: Thank you
16:22 moritz_ cognominal: and yet there's no proof of concept implementation of language interoperability in parrot
16:22 mncharity lua and tcl are relatively easy to implement.   though both communities tend to focus on light-weight implementations.
16:22 moritz_ Juerd: it will print out an ugly error message of there's no semaphore to remove, but it does no harm
16:22 mncharity big picture, what are potential selling points for parrot vis these various communities?
16:23 mncharity interoperate with other languages (long-term at least).  other?
16:23 moritz_ basically "using other language's libraries"
16:24 cognominal eventually, the selling point is the one of static languages : you can use a library written in another language. like moritz_ says, this not yet a reality
16:24 [particle] a vm built for their language, rather than a bolt-on addition to a static vm to support dynamic languages
16:25 [particle] mncharity: you really need to learn  to use email or blogs for your missives. the audience in this channel who reads these can be counted on three hands
16:25 cognominal .NET or Java moving to parrot ?
16:25 mncharity I don't know enough about the current state of LLVM for instance, and python's efforts on it, to comment.
16:25 moritz_ [particle]: all these languages have their VM already, no?
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16:25 moritz_ mncharity: llvm is probably not high-level enough to be used directly with dynamic languages
16:25 [particle] moritz_: there are multiple implementations of all these languages
16:26 cognominal I thought that the next version of ecmascript would be a good candidate for parrot, but they have killed it.
16:26 [particle] who is they?
16:26 mncharity so, "use a library written in another language".  so we're looking for a language which needs libraries, and doesn't have a NIH-reimplement culture.
16:27 [particle] nih?
16:27 mncharity What libraries are on offer?  p5?  python?
16:27 mncharity not invented here
16:27 cognominal ruby seems have good gems
16:27 moritz_ p5 libs would be a real killer app, but that's not yet feasible
16:27 cognominal s/have/to have/
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16:28 cognominal so many p5 libs transitively depend on some xs module :(
16:28 [particle] mncharity: parrot already lets you use sdl, mysql, and other c libs from perl 6, ruby, and even (potentially and easily) lolcode
16:29 mncharity Using ruby libraries from another language... maybe.  The syntactic form plays more of a role in rb than in pl or py, so I suspect rb libraries are will in general tend to be of less use.  but maybe still of interest.
16:29 [particle] cognominal: who "killed" javascript?
16:30 [particle] embed parrot in your browser. run embedded code in any language parrot supports
16:30 [particle] *run embedded code *from*
16:30 mncharity [particle]: languages tend to have their own ways of using c libs, so I'm not sure that's a selling point?  or I'm just missing it.
16:30 [particle] parrot has an api built in
16:31 [particle] pmcs are abstract data types. they define a storage mechanism and access methods.
16:31 pmurias [particle]: if you get parrot embedded in IE i would help with parrot
16:31 cognominal particle: harmony :)
16:31 cognominal https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2008-August/006837.html
16:31 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/483ghy
16:32 cognominal they have choosen ES3.1 insteand of ES4.0
16:32 mncharity are what were the JS2.0 dev efforts going ahead, or has the whole community melted down?
16:32 cognominal ES4.0 has lot of in common witth Perl 6 like  a combination native types and boxed types
16:32 [particle] cog: i had no ideal! wow.
16:33 [particle] *idea
16:33 [particle] crap, i liked js 2.0
16:33 mncharity M$ didn't. ;)
16:34 cognominal I think mozilla has an partial implementation of js 2.0
16:34 [particle] yeah, well, if they'd need to invest some serious money into their vm to make it even more dynamic-friendly and performant
16:34 [particle] they=ms
16:35 mncharity and silverlight.  and "it would be in our best interest if this all _didn't_ start working for a few more years_".  ;)
16:35 cognominal what is funny is that they emulate closed class composed of native type as part of their optimizations (squirrelwathever, chrome))
16:36 mncharity lol
16:36 mncharity re squirrelwathever
16:36 cognominal I  should like to see parrot in browsers.
16:37 pmurias mncharity: do you know that elf wouldn't actually pass sanity tests if prove was as strict as the tests assume it is?
16:38 pmurias (look at 02-counter.t)
16:38 cognominal ha SquirellFish is from webkit
16:38 mncharity pmurias: yes, noticed a couple failing when moritz_ inquired about faster test alternatives.
16:38 mncharity but counter should be working.  as in, I had to explicitly fix it.
16:39 mncharity elf doesn't use foofix:<++>, so it stopped working without being noticed.
16:40 pmurias it print ok $counter
16:40 mncharity are you sure you are current?
16:40 pmurias elf_g?
16:40 mncharity yes.  I'm looking...
16:42 mncharity $ prove --exec ../elf_g ../../../t/01-sanity/02-counter.t    ../../../t/01-sanity/02-counter....ok    All tests successful.
16:43 mncharity so yes, JS 2.0 nifty language.  sad to hear of difficulties.
16:44 cognominal who know, that may be the way of parrot to browsers :)
16:44 cognominal ...implementing javascript 2.0
16:45 mncharity re exposing libraries, the needed features would seem to be:  () can expose either p5 or py libraries (I'm not sure anyone else's has enough appeal to attract many developers from another language).  () stable enough to be used in production (other wise the existence of libraries seems of little appeal). ()... anything else...?
16:45 pmurias mncharity: look at ./elf_g ../../../t/01-sanity/02-counter.t
16:46 mncharity looking...
16:46 pmurias mncharity: java's libraries might have appeal
16:46 mncharity re look at, cute.  hmm, let's see...
16:49 mncharity oh, yeah.  STD_red doesn't do full "string" parsing.  Doesn't pull out vars.
16:50 mncharity Suspect STD.pm didn't have it working the last time STD_red synced.  Quite a while ago now.
16:50 mncharity STD_blue will fix.
16:51 mncharity My debug path was  elf_g -v , looking at the generated output, then the IR tree, then the AST.
16:51 mncharity Lack of "a $b c" is why the elf code says "a "~$b~" c" everwhere.
16:52 mncharity re java libraries, oh, there's an interesting idea.  though most languages now have their own java implementations.  python, ruby, lua, tcl, ...
16:53 mncharity perhaps leaving us back with just pl and py libraries.
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16:53 cognominal and ruby gems
16:55 cotto_work joined #perl6
16:55 mncharity perhaps.:)  I'm not quite buy gems as a selling point to ... whom?  py - no.  lua?  seems unlikely.  I don't know who would want them.
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16:58 mncharity correction: My debug path was  elf_g -v , looking at the generated code at bottom.   Then at counter.t, pulling out a single line, and feeding it to elf_g -v -e.  And _then_ at it's generated code (one line),  up at the IR tree, and then at the AST on top.
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17:02 pmurias mncharity: people from other languages interested in vm hacking propably are familiar with their own vm and unlikly to switch to parrot
17:03 [particle] including mncharity ;)
17:04 mncharity could be.  certainly it would seem significant language X use of parrot would likely preceed many language X vm devs working on parrot instead of language X's vm(s).
17:04 mncharity lol
17:05 mncharity "certainly it would seem significant language <P6> use of parrot would likely preceed <mcharity> working on parrot instead of ..."
17:07 mncharity hmm.  though that's not quite right.  emphatically not working on a vm.  I'd consider that an insane place to start when the objective is to implement a high level language.
17:09 mncharity with the possible exception of some very kernel-y high-level langauges, with a really simple but heavily used core, which almost has to be in C or assembly to start with, or you can't get much of anything working.  and the bottom-up langauge architecture means you don't take a "not working at the right level" hit.
17:12 eternaleye joined #perl6
17:13 mncharity didn't mean that as any kind of a backhanded parrot dig.  was just responding, and, well, my language design instincts are very different than the historical parrot->rakudo approach.
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17:21 mncharity hmm.  so elf-wise, three possible places to push.  () STD_blue, and associated src/perl6/STD.pm and gimme5 debugging; () finish getting a p5/p6 rx engine into elf;  () Getting the CL backend capable of compiling elf itself, and associated elf IR analysis improvements.
17:24 mncharity "we can use STD! (externally)", "fast rx, see!", and "elf self-compiles in < 5 sec!  and runs t/ (poorly) in just n minutes!", being the respective immediate "wows".  the first two creating a foundation for pulling STD into elf itself.
17:25 mncharity not sure if anyone cares.  "fast elf" might be cute.  but my hypothesis is there isn't going to be general interest until all 4 happen.
17:25 mncharity if anyone  _would be_ interested in some subset, or in helping out, please feel free to let me know. :)
17:27 mncharity lunch, then work.  I don't consistently backlog anymore, and @tell seems to be unreliable, so feel free to email me if you want to be sure I see.
17:27 mncharity have fun all :) &
17:30 pugs_svn r22313 | pmurias++ | [pugs][smop]
17:30 pugs_svn r22313 | pmurias++ | lexical variable work in pugs -Cm0ld
17:30 pugs_svn r22313 | pmurias++ | Pugs.Compile.compile marks lexical delarations in PIL1 although not fully correctly
17:33 ruoso sometimes backlogging #perl6 is a hard work ;)
17:33 lambdabot ruoso: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:36 * [particle] gave up backlogging #perl6 some time ago, and just today gave up backlogging #parrot
17:37 ruoso pmurias, hi
17:40 pmurias ruoso: hi
17:40 pmurias got the lexicals working ;)
17:40 ruoso cool
17:41 pmurias we could use some sort of s1p ROADMAP
17:41 ruoso right... at first I was thinking on taking the features needed by src-s1p/P6Meta.pm
17:42 ruoso pmurias, but I think we can keep it in the smop roadmap, can't we?\
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17:42 pmurias ruoso: yes
17:43 ruoso the first thing on the list seems to be the "prelude lexical scope"
17:45 pmurias not sure, just importing a snapshot of GLOBAL in the top-file scope might be better
17:45 ruoso but it is very sane actually, if all names are lexically scoped
17:46 ruoso making $lexical.lookup for everything is quite sane
17:46 ruoso and thus a "prelude scope" that contains all the symbols that are present everywhere seems very natural to me
17:47 * pmurias is playing with the cat so is a bit distracted
17:47 rakudo_svn r31339 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: Fix so that .trans doesn't modify its argument (RT #59204)
17:47 rakudo_svn r31339 | pmichaud++ | * Patch courtesy Chris Fields (cjfields++)
17:51 ruoso pmurias, http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop_prelude_lexical_scope
17:51 lambdabot Title: SMOP Prelude Lexical Scope / Perl 6, http://tinyurl.com/42qg3u
18:02 pmurias ruoso: how will unimportation of the stuff in the Prelude Lexical Scope work?
18:03 ruoso pmurias, well... one can see uninportation as re-definition...
18:03 ruoso pmurias, but is it even possible to unimport things from the Prelude?
18:03 pmurias i think so
18:04 ruoso but still... re-defining it to a failure is a way of doing it...
18:05 pmurias we would need a special scope with three states here,not here, and maybe in outer
18:06 ruoso but I mean... unimport is something like that
18:06 ruoso but only the scope that makes the unimportation needs to support that
18:06 ruoso it might even be a special scope ty
18:06 ruoso *type
18:08 pmurias i'm sure it can work, what are it's benefits over importing GLOBAL in to the top-most scope at the start of each file?
18:08 ruoso the need of doing the actual import?
18:08 ruoso I mean... not needing that...
18:09 ruoso you simply point the "Prelude Scope" as the "outer" and that's all
18:09 ruoso and not everything from GLOBAL is bound to the local scope
18:10 ruoso I mean, even the name "GLOBAL" needs to be defined in the prelude lexical scope
18:10 pmurias it seems to be a premature optimalisation
18:11 pmurias the imports from GLOBAL should be propably be optimised to late binding
18:12 ruoso I mean... eventually the Prelude Scope is the thing that has GLOBAL imported...
18:12 ruoso it just seems weird having GLOBAL imported every tim
18:14 pmurias it is a bit weird, but global being more special than other stuff from CPAN doesn't seem right
18:15 pmurias ruoso: and what happens when something changes GLOBAL?
18:15 ruoso in what sense?
18:16 pmurias if i add a function to GLOBAL
18:16 ruoso hmm...
18:16 ruoso is it supposed to be found by new code without a local bind?
18:17 pmurias i think so
18:17 ruoso and without a proper global mark?
18:18 ruoso since everything is lexical, that would look weird
18:18 pmurias maybe an is export?
18:20 ruoso btw... it's not GLOBAL that is special... I'm not sure &map needs to be defined in GLOBAL, it might simply be part of the Prelude
18:20 ruoso it's the Prelude that is special
18:25 pmurias yes, map should live in the Prelude
18:26 pmurias but i think it is the GLOBAL that should be special
18:26 pmurias ruoso: but what happens if someone changes the Prelude than?
18:26 ruoso well.. the prelude is something that can be static... right?
18:26 ruoso I mean...
18:27 ruoso I think what makes it a prelude is the fact that it's expected that it's up to the runtime to define it
18:27 ruoso it migth be overriden later...
18:27 ruoso but I don't see how someone can change the prelude during the runtime
18:35 rakudo_svn r31341 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Fix Str.perl to better escape things (RT #59068).
18:36 pmurias ruoso: we have to change the prelude while setting it up
18:37 ruoso now *that* is something special
18:37 ruoso we even plan a different compiler to thta
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18:40 pmurias it's not worth discussing trivia so we may use the lexical prelude for now
18:41 ruoso heh
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18:55 pmurias ruoso: one other argument for forward context propagation is perl5 interop
18:57 ruoso pmurias, :) again... I don't deny forward context propagation... I just think it should be implemented later...
18:59 pmurias ruoso: being able to write stuff in perl6 instead of m0ld/C is a priority right now so it can be moved a bit father on
19:06 * ruoso anxious for having a smop evalbot :)
19:06 * ruoso . o O ( that probably sounded weird in english... it's one of the bad transliterations of portuguese gramatical constructs... )
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19:10 pmurias ruoso: should i try to implement a smop evalbot?
19:10 ruoso that would mean embedding smop in pugs.
19:10 ruoso which is something cool anyway
19:11 [particle] "anxious to have"
19:12 ruoso pmurias, how hard you think it would be to instantiate the mold and the mold frame and then running it from pugs?
19:12 ruoso [particle]++ :)
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19:14 ruoso pmurias, I think the hardest part will be the reference to arbitrary c symbols that are used by m0ld
19:14 ruoso mostly used as constants, I mean..
19:15 pmurias actually that's easy
19:15 ruoso hmm... so there's no hard part ;)?
19:15 pmurias yes dlopen and friends
19:15 ruoso ah... ok... the "actually embedding" part ;)
19:16 pmurias yes, i don't know how to change the build process to link smop into pugs
19:16 ruoso well... in theory, it doesn't need to be compile-time-linked
19:16 ruoso you said well "dlopen"
19:16 pmurias hmm
19:16 pmurias shower&
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19:37 pmurias ruoso: using smop via dlopen would require lots of strangeness
19:37 timbunce left #perl6
19:38 ruoso why?
19:41 ruoso it just need to call smop_init()
19:41 ruoso then SMOP__Mold_create
19:41 ruoso then SMOP__Mold_Frame_create
19:42 ruoso and the rest happens in terms of SMOP_DISPATCH
19:42 pmurias to use dlopen i would have to fetch functins via dlsym
19:42 ruoso yes...
19:43 ruoso but you just need smop_init() SMOP__Mold_create, SMOP__Mold__Frame_create and the Global Interpreter
19:43 ruoso (ok... you might need to access native_int_create... const_identifier etc...)
19:44 ruoso pmurias, we could create some sort of bytecode loader in smop itself...
19:45 pmurias thought about it too a bit
19:45 ruoso that somehow would initialize native instances...
19:46 pmurias accessing c vars from m0ld is just a workaround, we can fetch all we want from the lexical prelude
19:46 ruoso but that doesn't solve native ints and const identifiers
19:47 pmurias they would have to be store specially in the bytecode file
19:49 pmurias but i hesiate to do have a bytecode format before we finish all corners of mold
19:49 pmurias * hesitate
19:50 pmurias s/do have/have
19:52 ruoso indeed... although I'm pretty sure the only types that need to have special treatment in the bytecode are the native types...
19:52 ruoso everything else can be looked up in the lexical scope
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19:58 pmurias ruoso: why can't we have the evalbot use gcc?
19:58 ruoso too many ways for it to behave badly?
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20:06 pmurias ruoso: does make test in pugs root work for you?
20:06 * ruoso tryign
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20:09 ruoso pmurias, nope... it fails in what seems to be the first test
20:10 pmurias same here
20:11 ruoso but it's not a failure in the test...
20:11 ruoso but in Test::Harness
20:15 * pmurias doesn't want to take over maintaining pugs...
20:16 pmurias ruoso: we should have a way to create a Mold and a Mold frame using smop dispatch
20:16 ruoso that's true...
20:17 ruoso the mold frame is easy...
20:17 ruoso the mold itself is a bit harder...
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20:18 ruoso but I think two arrays should solve the problem...
20:18 ruoso does Array accepts new(1,2,3)?
20:18 ruoso pugs: say Array.new(1,2,3);
20:18 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** Must only use named arguments to new() constructor␤    Be sure to use bareword keys.␤    at /tmp/ktOH2CLLZF line 1, column 5-21␤]
20:20 pmurias ruoso: it should
20:43 pmurias ruoso: what env var should i use to specifiy where the smop library lives?
20:46 ruoso SMOP_LIBRARY_DIR?
20:47 * ruoso later &
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20:53 pmurias sleep&
21:06 araujo mmm..
21:06 araujo seems like #perl hates perl6
21:08 moritz_ #perl on freenode doesn't have exactly the best reputation
21:09 araujo well
21:09 araujo I just got kicked by a "perl5 company" founder from the channel
21:09 araujo because I asked why he said perl6 is a disaster for perl5
21:10 araujo nice neurotic community they have there
21:11 * moritz_ can't really understand the FUD about perl 6 out there
21:13 araujo moritz_, it's apparently bad for market
21:13 * araujo guesses perl6 will be a good language then
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21:42 cognominal araujo++
21:44 cognominal sometimes I understand how rms can get aggressive when people laud him as the father of the open source like a mayor of an "arrondissement" of Paris a few month ago.
21:44 eternaleye joined #perl6
21:44 cognominal everyone wants an immediate eturn on an investment made by others.
21:45 dduncan joined #perl6
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21:46 buu moritz_: Um? The fud is easy, people talked up perl6 4 years ago and nobody has seen it.
21:46 cognominal but in the case of that mayor, he was brave enough to try to undertsand what program code was all about and try do stand on the good side just to be chided by rms
21:46 buu 14:05  * araujo wonders if perl6 should be blamed by the today international bankruptcy cases
21:47 buu 14:05 -!- araujo was kicked from #perl by mst [trolling]
21:47 cognominal buu, other bankrupcy today.
21:47 cognominal ??
21:47 moritz_ buu: that may explain the "U" and the "D" part of "FUD", but there's the fear coming from?
21:48 buu moritz_: Announcing a new product that supercedes your current product before the new product is ready is generally a bad idea.
21:51 cognominal well, explain me how to conceal the development of a new product in the open source world.
21:52 cognominal if one follow that line of tought which may be valid commercially speaking he ought to stay in the closed source world.
21:52 cognominal or do like big companies that develop internally to open source later.
21:52 cognominal I dont see that happening for Perl.
21:55 moritz_ it can't, since it's supposed to be the community rewrite of perl 5
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22:06 araujo buu, can you also please paste the rest of the conversation and not taking words out of context please?
22:06 araujo buu, can you paste the two lines above of it for example?
22:15 eternaleye buu: Also, Perl 6 doesn't suspercede Perl 5 - It is merely an evolution. Perl 5 will remain available for as long as people care about it. It's not like Perl 5 is going to be totally ignored by the maintainers just because Perl 6 is released.
22:15 eternaleye *supercede
22:17 moritz_ we know that, but not everyone does
22:20 eternaleye Yeah. Fact is though, anyone who knows about Perl 6 should know, because it was released via the same channel - if they got one, they probably were notified of the other too. It's sad that people just don't actually go to the trouple to comprehend things properly and instead form a very rough mental idea of what's happening and then go haring off.
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22:57 buu eternaleye: Yes, it's tragic, but human nature is unlikely to change.
22:57 buu And people trying to change it generally lose.
23:09 eternaleye buu: That's because the people trying to change it don't have enough time to do so. We just need to solve mortality, so they have enough time :P
23:09 buu Mmmmmhmm.
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23:24 cognominal eternaleye: may be that's the very opposite. some say that change is possible when tenants of obsolete ideas die
23:25 cognominal on the other hand, with eternity you have time to ripe fruit one new ideas instead of trying to capitilize on your old idea.
23:25 eternaleye cognominal: Perhaps we should solve morality, and just vote some people off the island XP
23:25 eternaleye *mortality GEEZ
23:25 eternaleye That would be BAD
23:25 cognominal s/one/on/
23:26 cognominal was that Kuhn who said that a new paradigm an take off when the tenant of the old one have died?
23:26 cognominal s/ an/can/
23:28 eternaleye cognominal: That reminds me, NPR recently did a story about a research study. The researchers would take some people, and show them a statement by a member of one party, and then a refutation by a member either the same or a different party, and repeated this many times. They found that, when it was a conservative being asked, and the original statement was made by a conservative, ANY refutation by ANY party merely
23:28 eternaleye strenthened their conviction that the original statement was correct. Frightening, no?
23:30 cognominal No, if you have a short time of life, you must get a return on investment instead of jumping on every new idea.
23:32 cognominal conservative people want order. Free thinking is dangerous for order even if it can eventually bring a new better "order". So they got to stick to their guns (so appropriate with the NRA)
23:32 cognominal everyone selects idea that reenforce his own ideas.
23:33 eternaleye Hm
23:33 cognominal I like to watch the Apple ads to confort me I have done the right choice. I know it is stupid, but I do it anyway. At least, I am conscious of it
23:34 fullermd I'm always a little weirded out by "studies" that conclude that people believe their own conceptions are right.
23:34 fullermd If I didn't think my ideas were right, they wouldn't be my ideas in the first place.
23:35 cognominal one has got to provisionnally stick to some ideas. What is dangerous is to think that it is the only choice, that you belong to somehow elected people by some god or authority.
23:36 cognominal What I like in Perl, is that it is a crowd that believe in choice  TMOWTDI
23:41 eternaleye Heck yes to that, cognominal
23:42 s1n @seen pmichaud
23:42 lambdabot pmichaud is in #perl6. I last heard pmichaud speak 8h 39m 1s ago.
23:49 cognominal ...even if the perl 5 crowd is very defensive.

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