Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-09-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:30 pugs_svn r22373 | cjfields++ | [t/spec] fix closure test (variables not reset)
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01:57 Lichtkind how can i write a signature that except only in values greater that 0 ?
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01:58 Lichtkind i ask because i dont see anything in synopses
01:58 Lichtkind but im shure there where something like that
02:11 Lichtkind any hint?
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03:14 pugs_svn r22374 | putter++ | [elfish/on_sbcl] More work on Array, Hash, and oo.  Parser.pm runs.
03:14 pugs_svn r22374 | putter++ | [STD_red] Postcircumfix methods now parse.
03:14 pugs_svn r22374 | putter++ | [elf] More backend neutrality.
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04:19 rakudo_svn r31428 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Update dec_number to avoid split/join removal of underscores.
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04:45 azawawi hi
04:47 azawawi how do i check p6 POD for warnings (like podchecker)?
04:59 azawawi @tell moritz how do i check p6 POD for warnings (like podchecker)?
04:59 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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05:14 rakudo_svn r31429 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Allow underscore in exponents.
05:14 pugs_svn r22375 | pmichaud++ | Remove a #?rakudo skip on underscores in exponents.
05:18 pugs_svn r22376 | azawawi++ | [pugs] PROBLEMS->PROBLEMS.pod
05:22 pugs_svn r22377 | azawawi++ | Make some text bold
05:33 rakudo_svn r31430 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Allow unspace before dotty ops.
05:33 pugs_svn r22378 | pmichaud++ | S03-operators/binding-hashes.t:  unskip skipped tests for unspace
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06:03 rakudo_svn r31431 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: STD.pm convergence -- dotty postcircumfix and methodops
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06:14 pugs_svn r22379 | pmichaud++ | Unskip some tests where rakudo didn't like dots.
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06:28 rakudo_svn r31432 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Leave .= to be parsed as infix for now.
06:28 pugs_svn r22380 | azawawi++ | fixed PROBLEMS.pod, moved t/syntax/varnames.t into S02-names_and_variables and added a smartlink
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06:29 pugs_svn r22381 | pmichaud++ | S05-substitution/subst.t:  Two more passing tests
06:41 azawawi can anyone cpan install Perl6::Perldoc on feather1?
06:42 pugs_svn r22382 | pmichaud++ | Correct test in S29-str/pos.t, unskip it for rakudo.
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07:39 pugs_svn r22383 | moritz++ | [t/spec] some unfudges found by autunfudge.pl
07:41 azawawi moritz: ?
07:45 pugs_svn r22384 | azawawi++ | rakudo skip 'Null PMC access in type()' on varnames.t
07:46 moritz_ azawawi: yes, just a sec
07:47 azawawi moritz_: ok
07:49 moritz_ [X] Done
07:49 azawawi i have some questions regarding rakudo spectest and skips...
07:50 moritz_ go right ahead
07:50 azawawi what is our policy for test skips?
07:50 moritz_ tests that either lead to abortion or that are unspecced are skipped
07:51 azawawi so "Null PMC...", stack traces should be skipped right?
07:51 moritz_ right
07:51 azawawi cool so much fun to do then ;-)
07:52 moritz_ (but fudging only makes sense for test files where some tests pass)
07:52 azawawi right
07:53 azawawi so far they are either parse errors or Null PMC stacktraces
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07:54 moritz_ what test are you working on?
07:54 azawawi S02-*
07:55 azawawi one more question about P6 POD format? is there something like podchecker for it?
07:55 moritz_ don't think so
07:56 azawawi i needed in the morning to cpan install Perl::PerlDoc for smartlinks.pl, but i dont have sudo access
07:57 moritz_ uhm, on which feather does the smartlink cronjob run?
07:57 azawawi dunno actually
07:57 azawawi im developing on feather 1
07:58 moritz_ because I know there is a cronjob for it already
08:11 Juerd It ought to run on 1
08:11 Juerd 1 is the "normal" feather that everyone uses
08:11 Juerd 2 is not in use yet
08:11 Juerd 3 is for evalbots
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08:58 pugs_svn r22385 | azawawi++ | Skipped all tests since autovivication.t fails in rakudo
09:00 moritz_ azawawi: when you make changes to the test suite, please put [t] or [t/spec] in the commit message
09:00 azawawi moritz: will do... thx
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09:28 pugs_svn r22386 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Skipped failing tests in capture.t for rakudo
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10:03 azawawi rakudo: my $ref = [ 42 ]
10:03 p6eval rakudo 31432: RESULT[[42]]
10:03 azawawi kp6: my $ref = [ 42 ]
10:03 p6eval kp6 22386: RESULT[[ 42 ]]
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10:06 barbeqq1 I heard tommorow you will release Perl6 !
10:06 barbeqq1 could that be true ?
10:11 azawawi rakudo: my $ref= { val => 42 }; $ref = [ 42 ];
10:11 p6eval rakudo 31432: OUTPUT[Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;List;hash' pc 2877 (src/gen_builtins.pir:1999)␤]
10:11 azawawi kp6: my $ref= { val => 42 }; $ref = [ 42 ];
10:11 p6eval kp6 22386: RESULT[[ 42 ]]
10:14 azawawi @tell moritz_ is this a bug in rakudo 'my $ref= { val => 42 }; $ref = [ 42 ];' ?
10:14 lambdabot Consider it noted.
10:20 pugs_svn r22387 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] skipped 2 tests in catch_type_cast_mismatch.t for rakudo
10:24 Ontolog I don't really understand this $<something> syntax very well
10:24 Ontolog we have $/ but $<something> is the same as $/<something>?
10:24 Ontolog we have $/ but $<something> is the same as $/{something}?
10:24 Ontolog how is it that we can ditch the forwardslash?
10:28 masak Ontolog: it's just a special case
10:28 masak besides, %h<foo> is the same as %h{'foo'}, with quotes
10:29 masak in general <foo bar baz> desugars to ['foo', 'bar', 'baz']
10:29 Ontolog i understand that
10:30 Ontolog i just didn't understand why we are leaving out the /
10:30 masak it's just a special case.
10:30 Ontolog i see
10:32 masak @() is also special cased to return all matches
10:32 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf ft id pl rc v wn
10:32 masak and $() is special cased to mean $($/)
10:33 masak ditto %(), it seems
10:34 masak same for Match objects further down in the tree, e.g. @<foo>
10:34 masak actually, things make more sense in light of that last piece of syntax
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10:49 pugs_svn r22388 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fudged compact.t for "Scope not found"
10:51 moritz_ rakudo: my $ref= { val => 42 }; $ref = [ 42 ]; say $ref.perl
10:51 lambdabot moritz_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:51 p6eval rakudo 31433: OUTPUT[Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;List;hash' pc 2877 (src/gen_builtins.pir:1999)␤]
10:53 moritz_ rakudo: my $ref= { val => 42 }; say $ref.perl
10:53 p6eval rakudo 31433: OUTPUT[{"val" => 42}␤]
10:53 moritz_ azawawi: certainly a bug, feel free to report to rakudobug@perl.org
10:53 azawawi moritz_: thx
11:01 barbeqq1 maybe it's time you release perl6 for real use ?
11:01 barbeqq1 moritz_: but those are bugs on pretty basic features...when do yo think perl6 will be done ?
11:02 moritz_ barbeqq1: it's done when it's done. If you help, it's done faster ;)
11:03 moritz_ barbeqq1: funnily enough nobody who was hackin on November (a Perl 6 wiki engine) found that bug
11:03 moritz_ because it happens surprisingly seldom in real world code
11:04 barbeqq1 moritz_: if those kinds of bugs(which are pretty basic language functions) are revealed after so much time this perl6 thing is going on ... that gives me an ideea of how much people are actively coding in perl6 and how much people are developing it ... could you comment on that a bit please ?
11:05 moritz_ barbeqq1: so much time - I don't quite understand. Rakudo isn't all that old
11:06 moritz_ barbeqq1: it only started to become somewhat usable half a year ago...
11:06 barbeqq1 moritz_: yes but could you comment on number of active users of perl6 ? and also on number of people developing it ?
11:07 moritz_ barbeqq1: developerr... perhaps 6 to 10 on rakudo, 1/2 on pugs, 2 on smop, 3/2 on elf, an undefined number on the specs
11:07 barbeqq1 has someone written a draft for Perl6 language specification(like c++ has for example...or any other ISO standardized serious language) or are features added in an ad-hoc pot-smoking fashion ?
11:07 moritz_ barbeqq1: but that "6 to 10" includes causual contributers
11:08 moritz_ there are specs at http://spec.pugscode.org/, and much of the specs is also present in form of a test suite
11:08 avar barbeqq1: the current spec isn't a std spec document, it's more ad-hoc
11:08 barbeqq1 moritz_: and are the specs stable ? or does someone come from time to time and say "OH I HAVE AN IDEAA !!!" :) ?
11:08 moritz_ (of which rakudo only runs 1/5 currently, and passes perhaps 1/6)
11:08 moritz_ barbeqq1: not frozen, but fairly stable
11:09 barbeqq1 so only 6-10 people are working on perl6 ?
11:09 moritz_ barbeqq1: there haven't been deep language changes in the last time, so it's mostly stable
11:09 moritz_ barbeqq1: I didn't say that. read again.
11:10 moritz_ rakudo neither is the only implementation, nor is it the only Perl 6 effort
11:10 pugs_svn r22389 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fudged enum.t for rakudo
11:11 barbeqq1 can't the specs be frozen so developers can catch up with implementation ? it's rather ridiculous that the specs change often and the developers need to back up,make changes ,clean up etc...
11:11 moritz_ barbeqq1: that's by far one of the least pressing issues for developers
11:12 moritz_ barbeqq1: as I said, most language changes are fairly small
11:12 moritz_ barbeqq1: the problem is that Perl 6 is a very complex and very new kind of language
11:12 moritz_ anyway, gotta go now
11:12 barbeqq1 moritz_: more complex than haskell for example ?
11:12 moritz_ have the appropriate amount of fun
11:12 moritz_ barbeqq1: yes
11:12 barbeqq1 OMG
11:23 pugs_svn r22390 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fudged infinity.t for rakudo
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11:31 masak barbeqq1: not that that says much. even Haskell is more complex than Haskell :P
11:33 barbeqq1 :))
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12:26 pmurias moritz_: haskell 98 isn't a very big language
12:28 masak pmurias: the equations for specifying the Mandelbrot set aren't very big either
12:28 masak but you can hardly deny it's complex :P
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12:35 pmurias masak: did you actually write anything in haskell?
12:38 masak pmurias: aye
12:39 masak not saying it's impossible, or even very difficult, just... different
12:39 masak and the inherent complexity is very pleasant
12:39 masak very algebra-like
12:40 pmurias most of the imperative techniques have very similar equivalent in haskell
12:41 pmurias having the mountain bike repair&
12:41 pmurias * repaired
12:46 pugs_svn r22391 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fudged multi_dimensional_array.t for rakudo
12:50 rakudo_svn r31436 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  spectest-progress.csv update: 180 files, 3897 passing tests
12:50 masak pmurias: re imperative techniques: sure, just as even distantly related spoken languages solve things in very similar ways
13:12 Lichtkind_ how to declare subsets in signatures?
13:14 avar I don't think a signature is the right way to declare a subtype
13:14 lichtkind so you have to declare it before with containes ?
13:15 lichtkind sorry but i found no example in synopses just mentioning subsets
13:17 lichtkind avar: you dont know any reference?
13:18 avar I don't know the syntax but wouldn't this be something like:
13:18 avar subset Kittens of Mammals where { self.squeak ~~ /meow }
13:18 avar sub (Kittens $a_kitn) { ... }
13:19 lichtkind avar: right right i think i check larrys slides again i think there were something like that
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13:25 pugs_svn r22392 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Paritally fudged mixed_multi_dimensional.t for rakudo
13:27 masak azawawi++ # test suite love
13:28 azawawi masak: thx
13:29 azawawi masak: how do know how to fudge a { faulty_code(), is_a(...) } ?
13:30 azawawi masak: im sleepy now ;-)
13:30 masak azawawi: no, I don't think I do. moritz_++ might.
13:30 masak :)
13:31 azawawi moritz_: do know how to fudge a { faulty_code(), is_a(...) } ?
13:31 moritz_ azawawi: a #?rakudo skip line will skip the whole block
13:32 azawawi moritz_: something like mixed_multi_dimensional.t line 112
13:34 moritz_ if it dies, skip the whole block of code
13:34 azawawi moritz_: thx, i'll try it now...
13:38 pmurias avar: you can use anonymous subtypes
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13:38 pmurias sub (Mammals where {self.squeak ~~ /meow/} $a) { ... }
13:42 lichtkind pmurias: you where this french guy which we eat at the indian restaurant in kopenhagen?
13:44 pmurias no
13:44 lichtkind ah yes it was cognominal
13:45 moritz_ pmurias doesn't even have a french name ;)
13:45 lichtkind pmurias: but you where in kopenhagen?
13:45 cognominal I was not the only one...
13:45 pmurias yes, i gave the "Perl6 is just a SMOP talk"
13:47 pmurias cognominal: aren't you supposed to be eaten?
13:47 cognominal at the indian, I was at the left of Karen Pauley if my memory serves me well.
13:48 cognominal I think BooK and maddingue were at another table.
13:49 cognominal is there photos somewhere?
13:49 Maddingue I was in front of Karen
13:49 pmurias lichtkind: did we talk at the yapc::eu
13:49 pmurias ?
13:52 lichtkind pmurias: yes i had the feeling thatswhy i ask
13:53 lichtkind pmurias: sorry was in garden to get telephone
13:53 moritz_ in Germany telephones grow in the garden
13:54 lichtkind moritz_: sometimes and sometimes the get in the garden when someone takes it there :)
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13:58 pugs_svn r22393 | moritz++ | [t/spec] varnames.t: use eval_lives_ok and eval_dies_ok
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14:03 pugs_svn r22394 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudged S03-operators/bit.t for rakudo
14:04 azawawi moritz_: fudge does not comment '{ faulty_code(); is_a(...); }' if it has any leading whitespace. Is that the correct behavior?
14:05 moritz_ azawawi: usually it works (ie it comments it out)...
14:05 moritz_ but somtimes it has some nasty cornerns, and it doesn't do nested blocks
14:06 moritz_ ie if you're already inside a block, skipping another block won't work
14:06 azawawi moritz_: it comments everything but the fauly_code()
14:07 moritz_ that's unfortunate ;)
14:07 azawawi moritz: so fudge works as expected if inner braces are not indented
14:07 rakudo_svn r31437 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add three more files to spectest_regression
14:07 rakudo_svn r31437 | moritz++ | (azawawi++ for fudging two of them)
14:08 azawawi moritz_: thx
14:09 lichtkind allright code and block are perl 6 data types
14:09 pugs_svn r22395 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudged keys_values.t for rakudo
14:22 pugs_svn r22396 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fudged mixed_multi_dimensional.t for rakudo
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14:30 pmichaud is there a mailing list for svn updates to svn.pugscode.org ?
14:33 pugs_svn r22397 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fudged int-uint.t for rakudo
14:33 lichtkind go patrick go :)
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14:41 moritz_ pmichaud: no :(
14:41 moritz_ pmichaud: what I do is backlog in IRC, and click on the changeset links
14:41 pmichaud hard to filter that
14:42 moritz_ search for pugs_svn
14:42 moritz_ but not optimal, yes
14:45 pugs_svn r22398 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudgex mixed_multi_dimensional.t a bit more
14:46 moritz_ azawawi: if you look at that commit... there's an evil hack with #?rakudo emit #
14:46 moritz_ azawawi: that can be used to disable some lines
14:46 azawawi moritz_: cool
14:47 moritz_ but it's an even uglier hack than the normal fudging, and should be used only seldomly
14:48 moritz_ S29-num/rounders.t is a *very* evil example ;)
14:48 azawawi lazy_lists.t is evil also
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14:50 moritz_ that probably predates fudge
14:55 pugs_svn r22399 | moritz++ | [t] closure.t uses different quoting delimiter, to eliminate the dependency on
14:55 pugs_svn r22399 | moritz++ | parsing with nested brackets.
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15:04 rakudo_svn r31438 | moritz++ | [rakudo] one more test for rakudo
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15:25 pugs_svn r22400 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fudged lazy_lists.t for rakudo
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16:08 pugs_svn r22401 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fully fudged lazy_lists.t for rakudo
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16:34 ruoso pmurias, hi
16:34 ruoso I've been thinking...
16:34 ruoso is it really possible to do $foo<abc> := 123?
16:34 ruoso isn't binding something that happens in the lexical scope?
16:34 ruoso perl6: my %a; %a<abc> := 123; say %a<abc>;
16:35 p6eval elf 22401: OUTPUT[syntax error at (eval 117) line 4, near "} :"␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
16:35 p6eval ..pugs, rakudo 31438: OUTPUT[123␤]
16:36 ruoso I mean... I know '$abc := $foo<abc>' is possible...
16:37 TimToady pugs: my %a; %a<abc> := 123; %a<abc> = 456;
16:37 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** Can't modify constant item: VInt 123␤    at /tmp/1h6VtHGRxs line 1, column 24-37␤]
16:37 TimToady pugs: my %a; %a<abc> = 123; %a<abc> = 456;
16:37 p6eval pugs: RESULT[\456]
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16:41 TimToady note also that symbol table manipulations are essentially %STAB<@var> := Array, more or less
16:48 ruoso TimToady, that might fail, depending on the object that implements %a, right?
16:48 ruoso pugs: my @a = (1,2,3); @a[0] := 2; say @a
16:48 ruoso pugs: my @a := (1,2,3); @a[0] := 2; say @a
16:48 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[223␤]
16:48 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤    at /tmp/L1IhYYpcAu line 1, column 19-29␤]
16:48 ruoso S03:1374 seems to imply that it relates to "names"
16:48 ruoso I'm not sure what '%a<abc> := 123' means to the Hash API
16:50 ruoso TimToady, yes... but there are other implications about that...
16:50 ruoso variables are things that can be syntatically identified
16:51 ruoso for '%a<abc> := 123' it will depend on what's implemented by %a.postcircumfix:<{ }>
16:51 ruoso for variables, I had planned to do a  double-boxing...
16:51 ruoso which would mean that you would have %STAB<@var>.STORE(Array) as binding and %STAB<@var>.FETCH.STORE as assignement
16:51 ruoso but that doesn't work for things that are not variables
16:52 ruoso unless this double-boxing is replicated to *everything*
16:52 ruoso which looks weird
16:53 TimToady the outer box is nothing more than a pointer, really
16:53 TimToady if an array is a C-ish array of pointers to containers
16:54 TimToady then := is just replacing one of those poitners
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16:54 TimToady *pointers
16:54 ruoso sure... but it would require doing that for every return value of every method call
16:54 TimToady don't follow
16:54 ruoso there's nothing really special about %a<abc>
16:54 ruoso in runtime-sense
16:55 ruoso it's just a method call 'postcircumfix:<{}>' on the value stored in the variable '%a"
16:55 pugs_svn r22402 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudged mixed_multi_dimensional.t for rakudo
16:56 TimToady no, it has to know its context
16:56 TimToady postcircumfix:<{ }> can't just pretent it's in rvalue context
16:56 TimToady *pretend
16:57 TimToady it's sort of a double-lvalue context
16:57 TimToady on the left of a :=
16:57 moritz_ ah that's what meant with the "various container contexts" in S02/Contexts/
16:58 TimToady maybe call it bvalue context
16:59 TimToady it's kind the same context that exists and delete want
16:59 TimToady *kinda
16:59 xiaoyafeng Hi, everyone. I have confused about *lazy*
16:59 moritz_ TimToady: I thought there was no 'exists %h<item>' form anymore?
17:00 TimToady still thinking about it...
17:00 xiaoyafeng my $x = 1..10; @a = =@$x; say @a;    # 1?????
17:00 xiaoyafeng why?
17:00 moritz_ xiaoyafeng: it seems that prefix:<=> basically translates to shift
17:01 TimToady perl6:  my $x = 1..10; @a = =@$x; say @a;
17:01 moritz_ why would you want to use an iterator on a list in list context anyway?
17:01 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected " ="␤    expecting "::"␤    Variable "@a" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤    at /tmp/zxBmw8oDip line 1, column 18␤]
17:01 p6eval ..rakudo 31439: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "= =@$x; sa"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 119 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
17:01 p6eval ..elf 22402: OUTPUT[Scalar found where operator expected at (eval 121) line 4, near "$a_$x"␤       (Missing operator before $x?)␤Global symbol "$a_a" requires explicit package name at (eval 121) line 4.␤Global symbol "$a_" requires explicit package name at (eval 121) line 4.␤syntax error at (eval
17:01 xiaoyafeng for =@$x {.say}  # 1..10
17:01 p6eval ..121) lin...
17:01 moritz_ xiaoyafeng: just for @list { ... }
17:02 TimToady perl6:  my $x = 1..10; my @a = =@$x; say @a;
17:02 p6eval elf 22402: OUTPUT[Scalar found where operator expected at (eval 121) line 4, near "$a_$x"␤       (Missing operator before $x?)␤Global symbol "$a_" requires explicit package name at (eval 121) line 4.␤syntax error at (eval 121) line 4, near "$a_$x"␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
17:02 p6eval ..rakudo 31439: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "= =@$x; sa"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 119 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
17:02 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** Unsafe function '=' called under safe mode␤    at /tmp/XCVrTB7dAw line 1, column 24-28␤]
17:02 moritz_ ouch
17:02 moritz_ pugs thinks prefix:<=> is unsafe
17:03 [particle] my @x = 1..10; say @$x;
17:03 [particle] err
17:03 [particle] rakudo: my @x = 1..10; say @$x;
17:03 p6eval rakudo 31439: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "@$x;"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 119 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
17:03 [particle] as i suspected.
17:03 [particle] rakudo: my @x = 1..10; say $x;
17:03 p6eval rakudo 31439: OUTPUT[Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;panic' pc 156 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:103)␤]
17:05 TimToady moritz_: exists and delete are very convenient from the user perspective, but their bvalue nature requires some macroish behavior, which means you can't easily overload those words as normal subs
17:05 moritz_ TimToady: right, we discusses that once
17:06 moritz_ at which point you pondered t allow multi-subs with macro-ish behaviour when a certain trait is present
17:07 ruoso right... in smop that's made in terms of 'late context propagation'... that's not the issue...
17:07 ruoso putting it more clearly... which API a hash needs to implement to support %a<abc> := 123?
17:07 ruoso TimToady, btw, 'method postcircumfix:<{}> is rw' right?
17:07 ruoso postcircumfix:<{}> returns the container... so how is it going to replace itself inside the hash?
17:07 rakudo_svn r31440 | moritz++ | [rakudo] one more test for spectest_regression
17:11 pmurias TimToady: have you thought over whether packages are put in a global namespace by default?
17:12 ruoso TimToady, seeing ':=' as a macro doesn't seem too bad...
17:13 ruoso but it's a very smart macro...
17:14 ruoso it takes the capture of the last call in the rside and use as the key of a pair to a BIND call on the object in which the call would otherwise be made
17:15 ruoso so in order to support binding, the object would need to implement something like 'method BIND ($identifier, *%pairs)'
17:21 TimToady pmurias: top-level packages *must* be put into some kind of a global namespace or they are useless, since the whole point of packages is to contain a public interface of some kind
17:22 TimToady however, I think only longnames actually go into *
17:22 TimToady and shortnames are lexically scoped aliases to some longname
17:24 pmurias TimToady: the use could supply a package to be used as the topmost one in the file
17:25 pmurias that's how i plan to implement it, the use then choose if to put the package in to the * or not
17:25 ruoso thinking about bvalue context... maybe binding should be represented in terms of a different call
17:26 ruoso a BIND call, which would be an alternative to a STORE call
17:26 ruoso but that would require the object to be a bit smarter..
17:26 ruoso meaning...
17:26 ruoso postcircumfix:<{ }> would return a lazy-lookup object *even if there's already a container stored in the hash*
17:26 ruoso (or at least when in b-value context)
17:26 ruoso this special object would delegate FETCH and STORE calls directly to the effective container that is stored in the array
17:26 ruoso but it would also support BIND calls, in which case it would access a private method in the hash to replace the actual container...
17:26 ruoso that works out for regular lvalue methods, that would simply fail saying they don't know how to BIND
17:26 ruoso and also would work out for special lvalue methods... bvalue methods... that would return a double-box...
17:26 ruoso TimToady, pmurias, moritz_, does it looks sane?
17:28 ruoso pmurias, I think there could be a "load" operator, in addition to "require" and "use" which would simply create the local alias to a private copy of that package...
17:45 * ruoso *crickets*
17:46 TimToady as long as we're careful not to compromise optimization of rvalues
17:47 ruoso my theory is that 'lazy context propagation' leaves all the possible room for optimization...
17:47 TimToady the lvalue/bvalue distinction is also part of what's going on with autovivification
17:47 ruoso because as 'forward context propagation' is implemented, gradually less layers are needed...
17:48 TimToady all I know is that backpointers and closures can get expensive
17:49 ruoso as I said in previously... I expect very few objects to actually implement that kind of context-awareness
17:49 ruoso and this objects can be implemented in a more low-level way...
17:50 ruoso avoiding that much closures...
17:50 ruoso most objects will take advantage of the context-awareness of the builtin types...
17:53 pmurias ruoso: re load an :option to use would be enough, i can then just put a use use :noglobal on top of my code
17:54 ruoso that looks like a very elegant solution... I'd use :private instead, tho
17:54 pmurias :private seems better
17:54 ruoso use Foo :private;
17:54 TimToady if another module loads the same thing, it has to have some kind of global pointer to the current one if it's going to avoid duplication
17:55 ruoso TimToady, the point is actually doing the duplication...
17:55 ruoso TimToady, to protect against monkey-patching...
17:56 TimToady if someone wants to monkey patch they'll still find a way :)
17:56 pmurias but they will have to find it
17:56 ruoso ;)
17:58 [particle] (security via obscurity)--
17:58 TimToady I wonder how soon till someone puts the module on CPAN to do it...
17:58 TimToady anyway, in the long run, it has to be enforced culturally
17:58 TimToady if we make it really easy to export and import lexicals, most of the package vars go away anyway
18:00 TimToady OO and lexical encapsulation are already giving you most of what you want, so I doubt I'll ever make package encapsulation the default
18:02 pmurias i don't really what to forbid monkey patching i just want it to happen in a localised manner with global monkey-patching being an explicit choice
18:08 ruoso but it still has a use...
18:08 ruoso which is... in an environment full of monkey-patching, it provides a *clean* view of the module
18:08 ruoso if monkey-patching culturally is done one way, this would say "i want a private version of this module"
18:08 ruoso this is usefull even for localized monkey-patching, actually
18:08 ruoso "I want to monkey-patch this module, but only in this scope"...
18:09 ruoso pmurias, btw... we need to change both hash and array to support bvalue context...
18:09 ruoso as with 'late context propagation', this basically means that the lookups are always lazy, even if there's already a container there..
18:09 ruoso FETCH and STORE are delegated directly to the actual container... but BIND replaces the actual container...
18:09 ruoso indeed... supporting 'localized monkey-patching' is an interesting feature...
18:09 ruoso more than trying to protect against it
18:09 pugs_svn r22403 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fudged lists.t for rakudo
18:12 ruoso pmurias, btw... supporting bvalue is the step that solves the autovivifcation as specced also... :)
18:14 TimToady but is the monkeypatch clone shallow or deep?
18:15 TimToady .oO(my use Foo)
18:16 pmurias we need an entire Monkey::Patch module as there seems to be endless possibilities
18:16 TimToady .oO(has use Foo)
18:17 TimToady I guess that'd mean that every object keeps its own monkeypatch
18:17 TimToady memory is getting cheaper, they say...
18:19 TimToady .oO(state use Foo) # keep monkey patches in persistent database...
18:20 TimToady but maybe there should be a different declarator for that lifetime
18:22 * pmurias can live with use putting stuff * in global if he has the cool "declarator use" form
18:23 pmurias wouldn't the deep monkeypatching be "local use Foo"?
18:24 pmurias "temp use Foo" sorry
18:26 pmurias ruoso: re bvalue context - 'forward context propagation' seems to be getting even more tempting ;)
18:27 TimToady temp is not a declarator
18:27 ruoso (has use Foo)++
18:27 TimToady it's just a bvalue macro like exists
18:29 ruoso pmurias, I know I know... but hold your breath just a little longer... ;)
18:29 TimToady ::!Foo::bar()
18:30 [particle] is that ! as in !important in css?
18:30 TimToady though I think we already claim that Foo can be virtual, so Foo::bar() might work
18:31 TimToady well, maybe not for 6.0.0
18:33 pmurias bizarre features attract implementors more than dull ones so it might be implemnted sooner than expected ;)
18:33 pmurias * implemented
18:39 pmichaud especially jonathan++  :-)
18:42 pugs_svn r22404 | pmichaud++ | Dotty parsing probably wants non-capturing <.unspacey> instead of
18:42 pugs_svn r22404 | pmichaud++ | zero-width <?unspacey>.
18:45 pmichaud given that there's something that allows pugs_svn to be able to post updates to #perl6, how hard would it be to have a similar thing send email updates to a mailing list?
18:45 pmichaud is it simply a lack of tuits, or something deeper?
18:46 * ruoso later &
18:47 zamolxes joined #perl6
18:49 [particle] probably lack of tuits
18:50 [particle] there may be a setting at http://trac.pugscode.org to handle it
18:50 lambdabot Title: Pugs - Trac
18:50 [particle] but i guess you'd want a new mailing list, not posted to an existing
18:50 pmichaud ideally it would be a separate mailing list, yes, but I can certainly set one of those up if nobody else has one available.
18:52 [particle] there is http://dev.pugscode.org/timeline, but it's not a ml
18:52 lambdabot Title: Timeline - Pugs - Trac
18:53 [particle] you can get a feed to that page, however
18:53 pmichaud TimToady: we have both infix:<.=> and dotty:sym<.*> that can parse ".=" -- is there a difference between them, or should there be only one?  (Rakudo is currenty using infix:<.=>)
18:53 pmichaud email is useful because it makes it easier to respond to individual patches on a mailing list -- much like what we've done with parrot-porters
18:54 pmichaud and perl6-language
18:54 riffraff joined #perl6
18:56 riffraff hi
19:02 [particle] http://svn.haxx.se/users/archive-2007-05/0402.shtml points to a commit-email.pl script for svn
19:02 lambdabot Title: Subversion Users: Re: Post-commit issues using commit-email.pl
19:02 [particle] somebody with basic svn admin knowledge and feather access can enable it
19:03 [particle] 'course you need an ml set up first
19:03 pugs_svn r22405 | azawawi++ | [t/spec] Fudged unicode.t for rakudo
19:09 alester joined #perl6
19:57 TimToady pmichaud: I guess the only difference now is that the spaceless version suppresses p5 concat warnings if you say $obj.="method" and such
19:58 TimToady don't know what that's worth...
19:59 TimToady $job &
20:13 pugs_svn r22406 | moritz++ | [t] moved two tests to xx-uncategorized and deleted the now empty dirs
20:20 pugs_svn r22407 | moritz++ | [t] cleaned up multi_named_vs_pos.p
20:20 pugs_svn r22407 | moritz++ |  * removed try { } blocks that prenteded that try is a named unary. It's not.
20:20 pugs_svn r22407 | moritz++ |  * removed seemingly random :todo<unspecced> markers
20:29 pugs_svn r22408 | moritz++ | [t/spec] moved multi_named_vs_pos.t to spec/
20:30 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
20:35 moritz_ rakudo: my $a = { a => 42 }; say 1; $a = [ 0 ]; say 2
20:35 p6eval rakudo 31446: OUTPUT[1␤Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;List;hash' pc 2877 (src/gen_builtins.pir:1999)␤]
20:37 moritz_ rakudo: my $a = { a => 42 }; say 1; $a = 2; say 2;  $a = [ 0 ]; say 2
20:37 p6eval rakudo 31446: OUTPUT[1␤Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;List;hash' pc 2877 (src/gen_builtins.pir:1999)␤]
20:37 moritz_ rakudo: my $a = { a => 42 }; say 1; $a = 2;
20:38 p6eval rakudo 31446: OUTPUT[1␤Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;List;hash' pc 2877 (src/gen_builtins.pir:1999)␤]
20:38 moritz_ rakudo: my $a = [0]; say 1; $a = 2;
20:38 p6eval rakudo 31446: OUTPUT[1␤]
20:38 moritz_ rakudo: my $a = [0]; say 1; $a = 2; say $a.WHAT
20:38 p6eval rakudo 31446: OUTPUT[1␤Array␤]
20:40 pmichaud assignment is a bit broken in rakudo, still.
20:40 pmichaud I thinks that $a = [ 0 ] is a Hash assignment because $a is a Hash
20:40 moritz_ yes, it should be a scalar holding a hash
20:40 pmichaud this gets fixed when I get the new containers implementation in place (the draft I discussed with jonathan++ last week)
20:40 moritz_ I'll file a ticket, just in case
20:40 moritz_ and there's a test file for it also
20:41 pmichaud tests++
20:44 jferrero joined #perl6
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20:50 pugs_svn r22409 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudged catch_type_cast_mismatch.t for rakudo, and added a few tests
20:51 moritz_ pmichaud: will add those tests to spectest_regression in the next commit - nice thing is that try { ... } catches those errors, so it's a TODO test rather then skip
20:51 hercynium joined #perl6
20:51 moritz_ so once it's fixed, you'll immediately get two passing TODO tests ;)
20:53 moritz_ (parallel testing)++
20:55 rakudo_svn r31448 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add tests for RT #59382 to spectest_regression
20:57 pugs_svn r22410 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudged S29-scalar/defined.t for rakudo
20:58 moritz_ the new version of tools/update_passing_test_data.pl is very helpful
20:58 moritz_ I attribute it a few hundred passing tests spectests
21:03 rakudo_svn r31449 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add tests for definedness to spectest_regression
21:22 meppl joined #perl6
21:22 moritz_ std: role foo { has $.bar = 42 is rw }
21:22 p6eval std 22410: OUTPUT[Unknown routines:␤     rw called at 1 ␤parsed␤]
21:22 pmichaud S02-builtin_data_types/num.t:124 has
21:22 pmichaud my $a = "0d01.01";
21:22 pmichaud is(+$a, 1.01, "0d01.01 numifies to 1.01");
21:23 pmichaud I don't think that the "0d" etc. prefixes are allowed to have decimals.
21:23 pmichaud std:  0d01
21:23 p6eval std 22410: OUTPUT[parsed␤]
21:23 pmichaud std 0d01.01
21:23 pmichaud std: 0d01.01
21:23 p6eval std 22410: OUTPUT[parse failure␤]
21:27 moritz_ I haven't grokked all these number formats
21:28 pmichaud shall I remove the test?
21:28 moritz_ pmichaud: but if you're confident that it's right, feel free to change the tests to eval_dies_ok
21:28 pmichaud I'm confident that STD.pm currently doesn't allow it.  :-)
21:28 pmichaud and that it is mentioned as being illegal as a constant
21:29 pmichaud but in this case it shouldn't die -- it would numify to 1 instead of 1.01
21:29 moritz_ or that
21:29 moritz_ then correct it
21:29 pmichaud okay, that seems reasonable-ish
21:30 pmichaud I kinda worry with eval_dies_ok that we may be attempting to evaluate every possible thing that could go wrong (which seems a bit infinite :-)
21:30 moritz_ pmichaud: only the things of which somebody someday thought it was right
21:30 pmichaud okay, works for me.
21:31 moritz_ pmichaud: and it's a common beginner's error to only test successes
21:31 pmichaud so, basically keeping the negative patterns in the test files.  I like that.  :-)
21:31 moritz_ (especially when crafting regexes ;-)
21:32 pugs_svn r22411 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Correct and unskip a numification test.
21:32 [particle] ++
21:34 ruoso STD has a dump_match of some sort, doesn't it?
21:35 ruoso how do I use it?
21:35 [particle] trystd iirc
21:35 moritz_ ruoso: perl5.10.0 STD5_dump_match $file
21:36 ruoso hmmm... it seems I need a STD.pmc
21:36 moritz_ ruoso: 'make' builds it
21:37 * ruoso just hopes that doesn't take hours to build :)
21:37 moritz_ ruoso: once you've got re::engine::TRE installed it's a piece of cake ;)
21:38 ruoso it actually was quite fast...
21:38 moritz_ ruoso: oh, and some of these scripts assume taht you have a perl in /usr/local/bin/perl
21:38 ruoso yeah... I had to make a link by hand
21:38 pmichaud is anyone (moritz?) reviewing the spectest commits?  If I started making lots of changes based on my understanding of the spec, would anyone notice if I did something that didn't seem right?  ;-)
21:39 moritz_ pmichaud: I usually monitor them, aye
21:39 pmichaud example:  I'm pretty sure that Junction.pick no longer does what it originally was thought to do
21:39 moritz_ aye
21:39 pugs_svn r22412 | moritz++ | [t] merge and_precedence.t into precedence.t
21:39 pmichaud it's not really worth preserving the tests, so I'm planning to just get rid of them
21:39 * ruoso considering embedding SMOP in p5 to hack a SMOP backend for STD
21:40 moritz_ it probably autothreads on .values
21:40 justatheory joined #perl6
21:40 moritz_ +1
21:40 pmichaud well, latest discussion I heard was that all methods (including .values) autothread on junctions
21:40 * ruoso . o O ( at least I hope that hacking in STD is easier than hacking in pugs )
21:41 moritz_ pmichaud: including .values? then how are you supposed to get a list of values?
21:41 pmichaud I don't think that was ever decided completely.
21:41 pmichaud but yes, .values needs to autothread, in case we have a junction of aggregates on which we want to get the .values :-)
21:41 ruoso all methods, except the ones that have "Junctions" in their signature?
21:42 moritz_ ruoso: Object doesn't autothread either
21:42 pmichaud ruoso: I'm talking about autothreading over the invocant
21:42 pmichaud $junction.foo
21:42 PerlJam autothreading seems very similar to laziness; there should be a way to explicitly thread or not  (IMHO)
21:42 ruoso well... .values is a method of Junction, isn't it?
21:42 ruoso so "Junction" is in the signature
21:43 pmichaud ruoso: that wasn't where the discussion I had with TimToady ended up over the summer
21:43 moritz_ ruoso: that's the question - if values() is a method in class Junciton
21:44 ryanc joined #perl6
21:44 moritz_ *Junction
21:46 pmichaud how about things like...
21:46 pmichaud ok(!(?(0&0) != ?(0&&0)), 'boolean context');
21:46 pmichaud that doesn't seem to be a useful test... what exactly are we testing?
21:47 wknight8111 joined #perl6
21:48 moritz_ .oO( ... )
21:48 pmichaud these are in S03-junctions/misc.t, btw
21:48 moritz_ fun with junction testing, part 4 of at least n²
21:49 moritz_ don't think it's useful - it's correct, though
21:49 moritz_ but I don't object to removing it
21:50 pmichaud okay, that gives me enough guidance, I think.
21:52 ruoso my initial sketch ideas on junctions autothreading is that the junction spawns the threads at the moment you try to use it in item context... I'm still not sure on how to join the threads back
21:52 ruoso (although calling a method always imply context on the invocant...) hmmm
21:52 ruoso maybe the autothreading process define a special CALLER that does the join... so it would initialize different interpreters (in smop every thread is a interpreter) set a clone of the current continuation in each one, but set the caller of the clones to be a special object... the "main" interpreter would then be blocked, waiting for the join, and building the result set...
21:53 moritz_ ruoso: note that they don't have to actually start a new thread (they may, though)
21:54 moritz_ ruoso: and afaict not every item context collapses them, only boolean context
21:55 ruoso er... my $a = any(1,2,3); my $b = any(2,3,4); my $c = $a + $b;
21:55 ruoso how is $c evaluated?
21:56 moritz_ ruoso: by first autothreading on one arg, then on the other
21:56 ruoso exactly... because $a and $b were used in item context...
21:57 moritz_ (1|2|3) + (2|3|4) = any((1|2|3)+2, (1|2|3)+3, (1|2|3)+4)
21:57 moritz_ ruoso: I don't see the connection to item context
21:57 pmichaud actually, it's   any(1 + (2|3|4), 2+(2|3|4), 3+(2|3|4))
21:57 ruoso the bind to the signature of infix:<+>
21:57 pmichaud (slightly different)
21:57 moritz_ ok, on the first arg first
21:58 pmichaud leftmost all/none, followed by leftmost any/one
21:58 ruoso the bind puts it in item context...
21:58 ruoso and then the autothreading is triggered...
21:58 moritz_ that evaluates to any( 3|4|5, 4|5|6, 5|6|7)) == any(3..7)
21:59 moritz_ ruoso: junctions also autothreads on subs that provide list context, like print()
21:59 ruoso but when you say print($c) it is item context, because of the sigil
22:00 moritz_ but $x = 1|2|3; print $x; behaves the same as print 1|2|3, no?
22:01 ruoso it will autothread in the middle of the binding process
22:01 ruoso and it will bind differently in each thread
22:01 pugs_svn r22413 | moritz++ | [t/spec] undork test that failed if infix:<and> is actually short circuiting
22:01 moritz_ but from user POV there's no difference, right?
22:08 pugs_svn r22414 | lwall++ | [STD] allow self-parse again
22:12 pugs_svn r22415 | moritz++ | [t] merge blocks/implicit_parameters.t into spec/
22:15 pugs_svn r22416 | moritz++ | [t/spec] re-fudged implicit-parameter.t for rakudo
22:15 moritz_ could somebody please take a look at the last test in t/spec/S04-declarations/implicit-parameter.t ?
22:15 moritz_ it seems wrong to me, but I'm not sure
22:15 pmichaud $x = 1|2|3; print $x;  becomes   any(print(1), print(2), print(3))
22:15 moritz_ aye
22:16 TimToady list contexts don't autothread
22:17 pmichaud oh, at one time I thought they did.
22:17 * moritz_ is confused
22:19 moritz_ @tell azawawi please don't fudge tests where the thing that's tested is not yet implemented - it doesn't help anybody
22:19 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:20 pmichaud whee, 36 more passing tests (next commit)
22:20 pmichaud (running spectest_regression now)
22:21 pmichaud moritz_: looking at implicit-parameter.t now
22:21 TimToady see S09:1036 on junctions in slurpy context
22:21 TimToady it looks pretty okay to me
22:22 TimToady what do you mislike about it?
22:22 moritz_ you mean the test?
22:23 pmichaud the test looks okay to me also.
22:23 pmichaud yes, it should die -- $^foo not allowed in sub
22:23 moritz_ isn't the self-declared positional arg allowed in the inner sub?
22:23 pmichaud in a block, yes, not in subs
22:23 moritz_ ah, right
22:23 pmichaud sub { ^$foo }    # error
22:23 pmichaud er, $^foo
22:23 moritz_ ok
22:23 pmichaud sub { $^foo }    # error
22:24 pmichaud { $^foo }   # ok
22:24 moritz_ but then it should be an eval_dies_ok, because detectable at compile time?
22:25 TimToady semantic analysis time, so probably
22:25 s1n moritz_: when you have a minute, i've got a quick question for ya
22:25 moritz_ s1n: go ahead
22:26 s1n in reference to that get_number patch i submitted, i was going to add those tests to radix.t
22:26 pugs_svn r22417 | moritz++ | [t/spec] s/dies_ok/eval_dies_ok/ on a test that will fail at compile time
22:26 TimToady though I suppose we have to be careful about all the places where we've given latitude to the compiler to complain about things that it can deduced will be wrong at runtime
22:26 TimToady latitude to complain is also latitude to not complain
22:26 s1n is that the only place you want the tests? i can also add tests for other general number conversions somewhere else... maybe numerical_context.t?
22:27 TimToady but eval_dies_ok is probably okay either way
22:27 s1n moritz_: rt#59222
22:27 moritz_ s1n: there's also S03-operators/context-forcers.t which contain other str-to-num conversions
22:27 pmichaud s1n:  have you adjusted the patch to avoid isxdigit ?
22:28 moritz_ s1n: maybe that's the better place
22:28 s1n moritz_: okay that works for me as well
22:28 rakudo_svn r31450 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Fix prefix:- and prefix:+ to better handle out-of-range Ints.
22:28 s1n pmichaud: yes, see the ticket, i replaced them, was going to add tests to verify it works as it should
22:29 pmichaud s1n++
22:29 pugs_svn r22418 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudge previously corrected test
22:29 pugs_svn r22419 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Unskip 32 arithmetic tests that now pass in Rakudo.
22:29 s1n geez, you guys are committing machines
22:29 pmichaud afk -- family time
22:30 s1n moritz_: also, is there any area of the tests you'd like some help with?
22:30 s1n i know you've really been cranking out work, so i was wondering if there was anything you had on your backburner
22:31 moritz_ s1n: just a sec...
22:31 moritz_ s1n: basically all the tests in oo/ need review, and need to be moved to spec/ if they are still correct
22:31 bennymack joined #perl6
22:32 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
22:32 moritz_ s1n: apart from that, there are plenty tasks in t/TASKS
22:32 s1n is this something i can do sporadically? my available time is spotty due to my schedule
22:32 s1n okay, i can check tasks
22:33 s1n oh, actually, there was one thing i did want to talk to you about
22:33 moritz_ the SINGLE TESTS section in TASKS contains smaller tasks
22:33 s1n the undef references that are everywhere, have you looked into this yet?
22:33 moritz_ s1n: yes, and my current position is that it's not worth to tackle them until we have a mechanism to disable warnings
22:34 moritz_ s1n: many of them are valid but harmless, but it would be too much work to work around them
22:34 s1n have you looked into this mechanism?
22:34 moritz_ no
22:34 s1n yes, but they're on todo's mostly, so i was wondering if anyone had a plan on how to disable warnings
22:34 moritz_ I'll have to discuss that with pmichaud
22:35 moritz_ anyway, have to go to bed know
22:35 moritz_ ciao
22:35 s1n night
23:36 Kitchy joined #perl6
23:39 Kitchy @seen TimToady
23:39 lambdabot TimToady is in #perl6. I last heard TimToady speak 1h 12m 3s ago.
23:42 Kitchy @seen Caelum
23:42 lambdabot Caelum is in #math, #perl6 and #haskell. I don't know when Caelum last spoke.
23:44 Kitchy @seen audreyt
23:44 lambdabot audreyt is in #xmonad, #perl6, #haskell and #ghc. I don't know when audreyt last spoke.
23:47 Pulpie joined #perl6
23:47 Pulpie left #perl6
23:50 lichtkind is yada forced upon anonymour routines?
23:51 Kitchy Any idea when Merlyn's Perl 6 book is coming out? Is it even finishable yet?
23:51 lichtkind nothing heard since month yout that

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