Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-09-30

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:47 meppl good night
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02:56 Ontolog moritz_: for split with a negative limit, we want to throw an exception?
02:57 Ontolog moritz_: to me it doesn't seem very a very Perlish thing to do
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03:50 s1n Ontolog: there's a discussion on the mailing list about split
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04:07 Ontolog i know i am following it
04:07 Ontolog this is in regards to that discussion
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04:26 pugs_svn r22465 | putter++ | [on_sbcl] Boxed strings and integers.  Also "", 0, etc, now false.
04:26 pugs_svn r22465 | putter++ | [elf_h] Elf source tweak - a miscalled fixed-arity sub.
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07:20 moritz_ Ontolog: I don't really know; I could argue either way
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12:32 moritz_ rakudo: say $?PACKAGE
12:32 p6eval rakudo 31507: OUTPUT[Scope not found for PAST::Var '$PACKAGE'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;panic' pc 156 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:103)␤]
12:34 masak rakudo: class A {}; A.new.WHAT.say
12:34 p6eval rakudo 31507: OUTPUT[A␤]
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12:48 moritz_ rakudo; package A; say 1
12:48 masak rakudo: package A; say 1
12:48 p6eval rakudo 31507: OUTPUT[Could not find non-existent sub package␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_12:15)␤]
12:49 masak rakudo: package A { say 1 }
12:49 moritz_ rakudo: package A { say 1; };
12:49 p6eval rakudo 31507: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "{ say 1 }"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 119 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
12:49 p6eval rakudo 31507: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "{ say 1; }"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 119 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤]
12:49 masak :)
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13:20 masak is it still true what it says on S06:601?
13:20 masak I seem to remember that something like that was retracted
13:21 moritz_ that looks out-of-dateish
13:21 masak it does, doesn't it?
13:22 masak @ask TimToady is it still true what it says on S06:601? I seem to remember that something like that was retracted
13:22 lambdabot Consider it noted.
13:22 masak lambdabot: thanks
13:23 * moritz_ wonders if every "thanks" to lambdabot increases the karma of lambdabot's creator
13:23 * masak hopes not
13:23 masak implicit karma transactions are evil
13:24 masak even if created for apparently good reasons
13:25 Juerd feather's uptime is 131 days.
13:26 Juerd That's pretty high for a box with way too many users with root access :)
13:26 moritz_ aye ;)
13:26 masak Juerd++ # feather
13:27 Juerd Remember when it crashed because all memory was exhausted?
13:27 Juerd That was 131 days ago. :)
13:27 Juerd So hurrah for those who put effort into fixing memory leaks!
13:27 moritz_ and for those who restart apache regularly ;)
13:28 Juerd Well, Apache is restarted automatically every 6 hours
13:28 Juerd 0 */6 * * * root /usr/local/bin/incredibly_ugly_hack_to_restart_apache
13:28 masak :)
13:28 * moritz_ made that hack even uglier
13:29 Juerd But better too :)
13:34 moritz_ speaking of which, I could do another apt-get upgrade on feather...
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13:44 masak moritz_: we talked about named parameters being optional the other day. I just confirmed that they are on S06:763.
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13:49 masak re S06:811, I don't understand what the difference would be between `sub head(*$head, *@tail)` and `sub head($head, *@tail)`...
13:51 masak is it that the latter would not match a call on the form `head(1..Inf)`?
13:54 masak on S06:860, is the backslash intentional? in other words, does .perl on a Capture print something starting with a backslash?
13:59 masak hm, seems it is. t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/capture.t seems to use both '\' and '|'. nvm.
14:02 masak but wait! on S06:935, again a '\' is used in an argument list. now I'm confused.
14:05 masak S06 just becomes stranger and stranger the further into it I get... :/
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14:13 moritz_ masak: *$head seems to make $head optional
14:13 masak ah.
14:13 masak so a slurpy scalar is the same as an optional argument?
14:14 [particle]1 that seems right to me
14:15 [particle] i added parameter passing rules to nqp and rakudo some time ago
14:15 [particle] lemme look at the nqp source to remember
14:15 masak sure thing
14:15 moritz_ does nqp have slurpy params?
14:15 masak this: `@a ==> @b` would be a pure list assignment, wouldn't it?
14:16 masak could I write `@a ==> my @b`?
14:16 moritz_ I think you could
14:16 masak and `@a ==> @b` is the same as `push @b, @a`, yes?
14:16 [particle] http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/compilers/nqp/src/Grammar/Actions.pir ~423
14:17 moritz_ masak: you meant @a ==>> @b?
14:17 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/4ox7d9
14:17 masak moritz_: aye
14:17 [particle] oh, also need parser link there...
14:18 moritz_ actions written in PIR look so painful ;)
14:18 [particle] http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/compilers/nqp/src/Grammar.pm ~229
14:19 masak I only have a Grammar.pg
14:19 [particle] oh, sorry
14:19 [particle] .pg
14:20 PerlJam Wait ... when did ==> become two headed?  (==>>)
14:20 [particle] if $key eq 'slurp' {              # slurpy
14:20 [particle] $past.slurpy( $sigil eq '@' || $sigil eq '%' );
14:20 [particle] $past.named( $sigil eq '%' );
14:20 [particle] }
14:20 masak PerlJam: when it's additive, like >> in shells
14:20 [particle] it's only slurpy if it's a @ or %
14:21 masak [particle]: be that as it may, it's called 'slurpy scalar' in S06
14:21 [particle] seems * is ignored for *$param
14:21 masak [particle]: at least that's a semantics I can understand :)
14:21 PerlJam masak: so, ==> is like "empty the target and fill it from the source" and ==>> is "add the source to the target"?
14:21 [particle] http://spec.pugscode.org/ not responding :(
14:21 masak PerlJam: think so
14:22 masak [particle]: I had the same problem
14:22 masak moritz_ did not
14:22 [particle] dns cache?
14:22 masak might be
14:23 * [particle] restarts ff
14:23 moritz_ no, browser redirect cache
14:23 moritz_ with wget I get the same failure
14:23 PerlJam btw, wrt slurpy scalars, I always though they were to circumvent laziness.  i.e., a slurpy scalar will eagerly get you one item from a listy source.
14:24 PerlJam s/though/thought/
14:24 [particle] sure, but are they optional?
14:24 [particle] in nqp, they're not.
14:24 masak quite.
14:25 PerlJam I wouldn't expect them to be optional.
14:25 [particle] then * is meaningless on scalar params
14:26 masak S06 talks about them at length, so it doesn't seem they're meaningless
14:26 [particle] that's the part i'm trying to look at next :)
14:28 * moritz_ tries to figure out what's wrong with feather's apache
14:29 moritz_ HTTP/1.1 302 Object moved
14:29 moritz_ Location: http://perlcabal.org/syn/
14:29 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
14:29 moritz_ now magically works [tm]
14:29 [particle] works for me after ff restart
14:30 masak now Wikipedia is down instead :/
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14:36 masak ah, here: "A heisenbug is a computer bug that disappears or alters its characteristics when an attempt is made to study it."
14:39 masak is there really a KitchenSink role in Perl 6? I don't know if that makes me laugh or cry
14:39 masak couldn't it at least be called Sink?
14:40 moritz_ uhm, this is weird...
14:40 moritz_ the response header from feather's apache also includes
14:40 moritz_ Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0
14:41 masak haha
14:41 moritz_ X-Powered-By: ASP.NET
14:41 moritz_ X-AspNet-Version: 2.0.50727
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14:42 masak aye, S06 confirms the `@a ==> my $b` syntax.
14:42 masak wonder if `@a ==>> my $b` would be equivalent or a syntax error?
14:45 moritz_ STD parse ==>> my @b
14:47 masak are PRE blocks run after tie-breaking is finished on multisubs?
14:48 moritz_ yes
14:49 moritz_ if you want additional conditions that contribute to tie-breaking, you have to use subset types instead
14:49 masak seems sane
14:49 PerlJam I would think that @a ==>> my @b should just work fine.  (Since that's my "least surprise" and perl follows said principle)
14:50 masak :)
14:50 masak PerlJam: well, something like `my $b += 2` doesn't work
14:51 moritz_ pugs: my $b += 2;
14:51 p6eval pugs: RESULT[\2]
14:51 masak hm :)
14:51 moritz_ masak: sure? ;-)
14:51 masak "test first, then speak with certainty"
14:51 masak rakudo: my $b += 2;
14:51 p6eval rakudo 31512: OUTPUT[MMD function __i_add not found for types (78, 92)␤current instr.: 'infix:+=' pc 11837 (src/gen_builtins.pir:7430)␤]
14:52 moritz_ rakudo can't autovivify scalars yet
14:52 moritz_ so my $x; $x++ will also fail
14:52 moritz_ rakudo: my Str $x; $x++; say $x
14:52 p6eval rakudo 31512: OUTPUT[Str␤]
14:52 masak I would at least not be surprised if the above threw a not-defined warning, something which Pugs does not support, IIRC
14:53 moritz_ aye
14:53 moritz_ otoh perl doesn't warn on $undef++ or $undef += $something either
14:53 moritz_ because it's such a common non-error case
14:53 masak aye
14:54 masak with that reasoning, Perl 6 shouldn't either
14:54 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 0; my @a = <1 2>; $x += @a; say $x
14:54 p6eval rakudo 31512: OUTPUT[2␤]
14:54 moritz_ I somehow thought that this doesn't work
14:55 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 0; my @a = <a b  c d>; $x += @a; say $x
14:55 p6eval rakudo 31513: OUTPUT[4␤]
14:56 moritz_ rakudo: my @x = 1, 2, 3; my $i = 0; $i += @x; say $i
14:56 p6eval rakudo 31513: OUTPUT[3␤]
14:57 * moritz_ closes RT #58274
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16:17 pmichaud (my $b += 2;)    I suspect this will throw a warning
16:17 masak ok.
16:17 pmichaud however,   my $b;  $b++;    won't throw a warning, as we're explicitly allowed to increment undef values to Int
16:18 masak what's the difference?
16:18 pmichaud one's mentioned in the synopsis as being allowed while the other isn't?
16:19 moritz_ that does't look like a good reason to me ;)
16:19 masak the feel very similar to me
16:19 masak s/the/they/
16:20 moritz_ in perl 'my $b += 2' doesn't warn either
16:20 pmichaud I'm just reading the synopsis.  :-)
16:21 pmichaud I don't design the language, I just implement it.
16:21 pmichaud The section that says that $x++ works on undef is in "Autoincrement precedence"
16:21 pmichaud (in S03)
16:22 pmichaud since += isn't "autoincrement", I'm not generalizing in that manner
16:23 pmichaud otoh, the section "Declarators" does say:
16:24 pmichaud When parentheses are omitted, you may use any infix assignment operator instead of = as the initializer. In that case, the left hand side of the infix operator will be the variable's prototype object:
16:24 pmichaud constant Dog $fido .= new;      # okay: a constant Dog object
16:24 pmichaud so, "any infix assignment operator" would presumably include +=
16:24 pmichaud that'll be weird.
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16:24 meppl good night
16:26 [particle] Dog++
16:26 pmichaud I'm not sure that STD.pm supports the other infix assignment ops as initializers yet, though.  It seems to only handle '=' and '.='
16:26 [particle] what does that result in?
16:26 pmichaud that would be an error, because Dog isn't in a suitable container
16:26 pasteling "moritz_" at 89.13.207.187 pasted "failures while accessing http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/22454" (9 lines, 2.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/32382
16:26 [particle] where Dog is the protoobject
16:27 pmichaud right, it's not in a suitable container
16:27 pmichaud it's like saying   3++
16:27 TimToady I think += should be able to turn an Int into a 0
16:27 lambdabot TimToady: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:27 TimToady or a Scalar into a 0
16:27 pmichaud TimToady: okay, works for me.
16:27 [particle] does that mean the Int protoobject has an Autoincrementable role?
16:28 [particle] or Vivifiable?
16:28 pmichaud I hadn't seen the line in S03 that said any infix assignment operator could be an initializer (until just now)
16:29 ruoso I think "Uninitialized" is a special value that knows how to turn itself into a lot of values...
16:29 ruoso like array, hash, 0, ""
16:29 TimToady I don't know how generalizable the thing is
16:29 ruoso because autovivification depends on it
16:29 pmichaud TimToady: I'd agree with that, also.  :-)
16:30 TimToady but maybe it's related to the table of degenerate reduction ops
16:30 moritz_ I think the ops should be special, not the undef
16:30 ruoso postcircumfix:{} is not an op
16:30 TimToady if [*]() is 1 then maybe *= autovivs to 1
16:30 ruoso it's a method
16:30 moritz_ because it makes it easier to add types with new autovivification options
16:31 masak just as the discussion gets interesting, I have to go :P
16:31 pmichaud alas, so do I.
16:31 masak see you around
16:31 TimToady I suspect the question is already answered. :)
16:32 ruoso it is?
16:33 TimToady I think there's a deep relationship between assignment ops and reduction ops
16:35 * ruoso has a blurred mind at the moment...
16:35 * ruoso later &
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18:43 rakudo_svn r31519 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  spectest-regression.csv update: 193 files, 4381 passing tests
18:57 rakudo_svn r31520 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Correct name of t/spec/S05-modifier/ignorecase.t
18:58 moritz_ uhm, I shouldn't commit when half asleep
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20:40 PerlJam moritz_: no, you should wait until you are fully asleep, then commit.
20:40 PerlJam :-)
20:41 Kitchy Will there be a good compiler for Perl 6 that would let me decompile into C?
20:42 PerlJam Kitchy: if the need is great, someone will write it.
20:43 [particle] i can't imagine that need will be great
20:44 PerlJam [particle]: me either.
20:44 [particle] but who am i to judge?
20:44 moritz_ you are [particle] ;-)
20:45 [particle] all i know is: it's not in the perl 6 spec, so it's not required for any perl 6 to implement.
20:54 Kitchy Is it expected that the Camel book equivalent for Perl 6 will include community-written manpage stuff like the Perl 5 book does?
20:56 Kitchy ...because it sounds like english isn't the first language of some of the current doc writers.
20:57 moritz_ you can be sure that whatever O'Reilly publishes will be thoroughly edited
20:58 moritz_ (and you're welcome to fix spelling and grammar errors yourself ;-)
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22:08 * ruoso later &
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