Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-10-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:47 pugs_svn r22573 | lwall++ | [viv] can now reproduce t/01-sanity/01-tap.t
00:47 pugs_svn r22573 | lwall++ | [STD] remember list separators
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01:30 * mncharity searches for a description of the vision for viv and VAST... unsuccessfully. :/
01:32 mncharity Didn't find any comments at all actually.  Maybe once the Design Minutes catch up?  They seem to have about a month latency.
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01:36 mncharity yay, '2 < 3' parses in viv now.
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01:43 mncharity @tell pmurias Could you add a README to misc/elfish/AST/ ?  Thanks.  Not quite clear what it is.
01:43 lambdabot Consider it noted.
01:51 mncharity @tell pmurias What is the status of misc/elfish/elf_f_work/ ?  Could you update README?  Thanks.  Dusting a bit...
01:51 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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02:53 pugs_svn r22574 | putter++ | [elfish/rx_on_re] Update to elf_h.  Dust README.  Delete obsolete EmitRegexYare.pm.  Fixed a bogus classname.
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03:36 rakudo_svn r31875 | tene++ | [rakudo]: Fix Str.trans.  cjfields++
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04:45 ihrd hi, we have vladivostok.pm meeting right now, and topic perl6 and November wiki. And we catch this:
04:45 ihrd rakudo:my $foo = { $^z.say; $^a.say }; $foo("HAI", "HER");
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04:46 ihrd rakudo: my $foo = { $^a.say; $^z.say }; $foo("HAI", "HER");
04:46 p6eval rakudo 31875: OUTPUT[HAI␤HER␤]
04:46 ihrd rakudo: my $foo = { $^a.say; $^z.say }; $foo("HAI", "HER");
04:46 p6eval rakudo 31875: OUTPUT[HAI␤HER␤]
04:47 ihrd akudo: my $foo = { $^z.say; $^a.say }; $foo("HAI", "HER");
04:47 ihrd sorry
04:47 ihrd rakudo: my $foo = { $^z.say; $^a.say }; $foo("HAI", "HER");
04:47 p6eval rakudo 31875: OUTPUT[HER␤HAI␤]
04:48 ihrd rakudo sort $^vars be name
04:49 ihrd and assign to $^a first args, and to $^z second
04:49 Tene lolcode: VISIBLE "OH HAI GUYZ"
04:50 Tene Ack, mischen.
04:50 Tene chan.
04:53 ihrd dose it`s right behaviour?
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05:19 pugs_svn r22575 | lwall++ | [viv] straighten out chain operators
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07:15 rakudo_svn r31876 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo] spectest-progress.csv update: 203 files, 4366 passing
07:27 pugs_svn r22576 | lwall++ | [viv] now outputs p6 variables, declarations
07:27 pugs_svn r22576 | lwall++ | [STD] more random hackage for viv and :exists
07:27 pugs_svn r22576 | lwall++ | [STD] now parses declaration initializers as normal assignops
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09:24 pmurias_ @tell mncharity everything in elf_f_work seems to be obsolete
09:24 lambdabot Consider it noted.
09:26 pmurias @tell misc/elfish/AST is supposed to contain the description of the IRx1 in Perl 6 as opposed to a strange "DSL"
09:26 lambdabot Consider it noted.
09:27 moritz_ pmurias: EWRONGNICK
09:27 pmurias @tell mncharity misc/elfish/AST is supposed to contain the description of the IRx1 in Perl  6 as opposed to a strange "DSL"
09:27 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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10:04 bacek pugs: my @a = (1); @a[0] := @a; @a.perl
10:04 p6eval pugs: RESULT["\\((1,),)"]
10:13 rakudo_svn r31877 | masak++ | [rakudo] prefix/postfix ++ and -- now delegate to succ and pred, respectively
10:13 rakudo_svn r31877 | masak++ | patch courtesy of Vasily Chekalkin (bacek++)
10:13 rakudo_svn r31877 | masak++ | this patch fixes bug #59596
10:41 pugs_svn r22577 | masak++ | [t/spec/S03-operators/autoincrement.t] added tests for overriding succ and pred
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10:49 masak moritz_: what's running pugs_svn?
10:50 moritz_ masak: a mix of Bot::BasicBot and SVN::Log
10:50 masak is there source somewhere?
10:52 pasteling "moritz_" at 89.13.235.160 pasted "svnbot source for masak" (77 lines, 1.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/32576
10:52 masak dz :)
10:52 masak I'm mainly looking for inspiration right now.
10:53 moritz_ I've been planning for ages to make it configurable and put it somewhere
10:54 masak moritz_: what's calling &tick ?
10:55 masak ah, found it
10:55 masak Bot::BasicBot
10:55 masak of course
10:56 masak that's what I need!
10:56 * masak membles enthusiastically
11:01 literal what kind of inspiration? for writing an IRC bot?
11:02 masak literal: aye. using POE.
11:02 literal have you read the POE::Component::IRC documentation?
11:02 masak literal: partly.
11:02 masak will read it again. :)
11:03 literal bug me if you find anything wrong with it :P
11:03 masak literal: hokay.
11:03 masak & lunch
11:03 literal also, here's something, http://search.cpan.org/dist/IRC-Bot/
11:03 lambdabot Title: Benjamin W. Smith / IRC-Bot - search.cpan.org
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13:13 masak perl6: say map {; $_ => "foo" }, (1, 2, 3, 4)
13:13 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[1  foo2    foo3    foo4    foo␤]
13:13 p6eval ..elf 22577: OUTPUT[Use of uninitialized value in join or string at ./elf_f line 169.␤Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::map called at (eval 119) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
13:13 p6eval ..rakudo 31880: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in get_string()␤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;add_parent' pc 95 (runtime/parrot/library/P6object.pir:126)␤]
13:14 masak hm, my local rakudo doesn't die on that.
13:14 moritz_ say (map {; $_ => "foo" }, (1, 2, 3, 4)).WHAT
13:14 moritz_ rakudo: say (map {; $_ => "foo" }, (1, 2, 3, 4)).WHAT
13:14 p6eval rakudo 31880: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in get_string()␤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;add_parent' pc 95 (runtime/parrot/library/P6object.pir:126)␤]
13:14 masak anyway, I was going to say that it's a bit unfortunate that the tabs make the wrong things group together
13:15 masak I don't know if that counts as a design flaw, it's just unfortunate
13:16 moritz_ unfortunate design flaw? ;-)
13:18 masak oh, oh, I've found out now why the S29 link under "caller" is broken
13:18 masak it's line 35 of Pod::Simple::HTML
13:19 masak it says to always strap on the prefix 'http://search.cpan.org/perldoc?' to a link
13:19 masak apparently it's overridable
13:19 masak (Sean M. Burke)++
13:21 masak as I see it, I want to set $Perldoc_URL_Prefix = 'http://perlcabal.org/syn/'; $Perldoc_URL_Postfix = '.html'; in util/smartlinks.pl
13:22 moritz_ that would make S\d**2 links work
13:22 masak ...which is what I'm after
13:22 moritz_ great
13:22 masak it bugs me that they're broken
13:23 masak hm, those variables are imported using a 'use vars' declaration
13:23 moritz_ s/imported/declared/
13:23 masak ok.
13:23 moritz_ that's rougly the same as our
13:24 masak does that mean I don't have to use our in util/smartlinks.pl?
13:24 moritz_ you can access them via $Full::Package::Name::Perldoc_URL_Postfix or somethiing
13:24 moritz_ (I hope)
13:24 masak ah.
13:24 masak good.
13:25 masak before or after the eval { require Pod::Simple::HTML }; ?
13:25 moritz_ after
13:26 masak will that work? won't line 35 in Pod::Simple::HTML have executed by then?
13:26 masak ah, but that doesn't matter, does it? :)
13:26 moritz_ is it in a sub?
13:26 masak no
13:27 moritz_ uhm
13:27 masak it's out in the open
13:28 moritz_ just try it. Since it's only a default it should be possible to override afterwards
13:28 masak I think so too.
13:29 masak that variable is used in the constructor, so as long as I set it before I create a new object, it should be ok
13:31 pugs_svn r22578 | masak++ | [util/smartlinks.pl] unbroke cross-reference links between synopses
13:33 masak "step 2: wait."
13:33 moritz_ why wait?
13:33 moritz_ you can generate the HTML on your machine
13:33 moritz_ it's one of the countless options in smartlinks.pl
13:36 masak ooh
13:37 * masak generates
13:42 masak it worked! :D
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13:46 pugs_svn r22579 | moritz++ | [t/spec] some smartlinks for rx.t. Many more needed.
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13:50 pugs_svn r22580 | moritz++ | [t/spec] more smartlinks for rx.t, removed a few vim modelines
14:04 moritz_ masak++ # it works, and is now online
14:04 masak excellent.
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14:29 dominiko Ri, faccio un sonellino adesso (k)
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14:59 mncharity sigh.  change in plans.  back later.  current plan is to viv-ify STD_blue, with eye towards doing () tools, () STD_blue elf bootstrap, () STD_blue elf does STD.pm -> IR, () flesh out rx IR with rx_on_re in some form, () bootstrap, () profit.
14:59 lambdabot mncharity: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:04 mncharity @tell pmurias re elf_f_work, ok, sounds rm-able.  re misc/elfish/AST, create README please (if havent'a already) ?  though it looked like it was simply  cat IRx1_Nodes.pm |perl -ne 'print if /^\s*(class|has)/;' or something vaguely like that.
15:04 lambdabot Consider it noted.
15:10 moritz_ std: proto [foo] (*@args) { 1; }
15:10 p6eval std 22580: OUTPUT[parse failure␤]
15:11 moritz_ @tell TimToady STD.pm can't parse proto [foo] as illustrated in S03/Reduction operators/
15:11 lambdabot Consider it noted.
15:21 TimToady whee
15:21 lambdabot TimToady: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:22 moritz_ are you serious about that syntax?
15:23 moritz_ oh, and I think rafl++ pointed out that array and hash unpacking in signatures wasn't parsed either
15:23 moritz_ but I haven't verified myself
15:24 TimToady dunno
15:24 TimToady not sure why it's a proto either
15:24 moritz_ std: sub quicksort ([$pivot, *@data], $reverse?, $inplace?) {1; }
15:24 p6eval std 22580: OUTPUT[parse failure␤]
15:25 moritz_ (never trust p6eval's std output though, it's a bit unstable)
15:25 TimToady well, I don't even trust STD's output yet :)
15:26 TimToady half of the fixes to viv involve fixing STD too
15:26 moritz_ it can parse more Perl 6 than I can ;)
15:26 TimToady well, there's that....
15:27 TimToady I'm trying to think of a way to simplify all the sigil hoisting that is more like attribute grammars than procedures
15:28 pugs_svn r22581 | moritz++ | [t/TASKS] two more tasks
15:30 pugs_svn r22582 | moritz++ | [t/TASKS] **? is tested in rx.t and repeat.t
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15:34 moritz_ currently [\$op] is only tested with left-assoc $op
15:35 moritz_ would @@ [\**] 2, 3, 4 return [4], [3**4], [2**3**4]?
15:36 moritz_ erm, just 4, 3**4, 2**3**4
15:37 TimToady yes
15:39 moritz_ pugs: 2**3**4
15:39 p6eval pugs: RESULT[2417851639229258349412352/1]
15:39 TimToady here's an interesting ambiguity:  -> $x { #<I am a hash unpacker> }
15:39 moritz_ ouch
15:39 masak :/
15:40 TimToady and you can't change it to -> $x{...} because that's a shaped array declaration
15:40 TimToady s/array/hash/
15:41 TimToady well, %x{...} would be, anyway
15:41 TimToady not sure there are shaped scalars :)
15:41 pugs_svn r22583 | moritz++ | [t/spec] tests for [\$op] with right assoc $op
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15:49 TimToady actually, it's not clear why we shouldn't just unpack arrays and hashes with sub-signatures, which parse already
15:50 TimToady sub quicksort ([$pivot, *@data], $reverse?, $inplace?)
15:50 TimToady could just as easily be:
15:50 TimToady sub quicksort (($pivot, *@data), $reverse?, $inplace?)
15:51 moritz_ and [...] suggest a reference to an array anyway
15:51 TimToady other than the doc value
15:51 TimToady but sigs can unpack mixed positional named
15:52 TimToady the bad ambiguity goes away if we change
15:52 TimToady sub register ({:$name, :$addr, *%guest_data}, $room_num)
15:52 TimToady to
15:52 TimToady sub register ((:$name, :$addr, *%guest_data), $room_num)
15:52 pmichaud in http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2008-10-07#i_609762 I asked the question:
15:52 lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2008-10-07
15:53 pmichaud class Foo { ... };   say Foo.WHAT;  # "Foo\n"
15:53 pmichaud module Bar { ... };   say Bar.WHAT;   # ???
15:53 pmichaud ruoso answered: 'cannot find class Bar in the current scope'
15:53 pmichaud ...is that correct?
15:54 pmichaud because S11 has  Foo::Bar.EXPORTALL, which seems to be a method call on the Foo::Bar module
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15:54 masak seems there has to be _some_ way to refer to a module
15:54 TimToady modules and packages are objects too :)
15:55 pmichaud so .WHAT would work, then?
15:55 TimToady but the distinction seems to be rather like the @x.method vs $x.method distinction
15:55 TimToady on the other hand WHAT is really a macro
15:56 TimToady not sure I've had enough caffiene to puzzle it out yet
15:56 pmichaud yes, I know it's a macro, but if Foo::Bar is an object, it seems like we should be able to do .WHAT on it.
15:56 TimToady I think Foo::Bar is first of all a package name
15:57 TimToady which can in some cases be used as a class
15:57 pmichaud well, protoobject.
15:57 TimToady it's first of all a package name that can also be used as a protoobject :)
15:58 TimToady I guess the question is where there are ambiguities in "how is it being used?" and what we need to do to clear those ambiguities
15:58 TimToady or however you say that in English
15:58 pmichaud at the moment I'm just curious what .EXPORTALL is being called on :-)
15:59 pmichaud if the answer is that it's called on a Package, that's fine with me.  :-)
15:59 TimToady one could consider all packages to be protoobjects
15:59 TimToady it's just that
16:00 pmichaud that's the way I was headed first, until I asked the .WHAT question above (and got ruoso's answer)
16:00 TimToady no methods are automatically constructed unless it's a class
16:00 pmichaud I'm wondering if Foo::Bar is just an instance of a package.
16:00 TimToady well, ruoso thinks sideways from the rest of us, which has both advantages and disadvantages :)
16:01 TimToady was wondering that earlier, but it makes a discontinuity of sorts
16:01 pmichaud agreed.
16:02 TimToady it may be that Foo:Bar.randommethod should fail just to keep all package names looking like undefs
16:03 TimToady except for methods that are defined on undefs, of course :)
16:03 TimToady but WHAT is exempt as a macro
16:04 TimToady so I think WHAT on a package name/protoobject should return the packagename/protoobject probably
16:04 TimToady it's just you can't do much more with it than you could before :)
16:07 TimToady anyway, WHAT is fundamentally not an ordinary method
16:07 pmichaud sure, I get that
16:07 TimToady I think that's where the discontinuity should be
16:08 TimToady not between packages and classes
16:08 pmichaud my question was more along the lines of   "for Foo::Bar.EXPORTALL", what is the class of the thing receiving ".EXPORTALL"?
16:10 TimToady I think, probably, fundamentally packages and modules are also classes; they just guarantee certain extra apparatus when you use a particular keyword
16:10 TimToady so maybe it's fine to put a method in a package and call it, but you get no automatic EXPORTALL method, for instance
16:11 TimToady (unless we want to support @ISA somehow in that case for old time's sake...:)
16:12 TimToady so you could import methods from a module into a class maybe too, albeit without the protection of roles
16:12 TimToady and by default they'd be imported as "my methods"
16:12 TimToady which seems like it might be useful for importing infrastructure
16:12 TimToady since roles are mostly for composing api
16:13 TimToady certainly STD doesn't care where you define a method
16:14 TimToady certainly ruby gets along by making everything a class really, but we can be clearer about intent
16:16 TimToady if we want to talk about a package as a container, maybe it's VAR(package)
16:16 TimToady so Foo::Bar.method is more like $x.method than like @x.method, which is what I was trying to get at earlier
16:17 TimToady or Foo::Bar:: is also perhaps the container
16:17 TimToady which is why Foo::Bar::{'$foo'} works
16:18 TimToady yow, does that mean would do away with VAR and just use $foo:: to mean the container of $foo?
16:18 pmichaud or perhaps ::$foo ?  O
16:18 TimToady s/would/we could/
16:18 TimToady doesn't backport to ::Foo::Bar
16:18 TimToady with the current meaning of that
16:19 TimToady which is, I know this is a valid package name, don't check it
16:19 pmichaud ah, okay.
16:19 TimToady package/type/protoobject...
16:21 pmichaud lunchtime here -- bbiaw
16:22 TimToady yeah, I need to go break my house
16:39 pugs_svn r22584 | masak++ | [t/TASKS] fixed a few typos
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17:44 rjbs So, I see ./languages/json, but is there a way to use that or something else to turn JSON into Perl6 data?
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18:04 rakudo_svn r31886 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Some updates to progress-graph.pl.
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18:09 * rjbs wonders if he can get a json answer in the hackathon room. :)
18:16 pmichaud at present we don't have a way of doing language interop in rakudo.
18:18 rjbs Is there a way to find if someone has written a library to do X apart from Google?
18:18 rjbs Maybe I can just write some rules.
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18:26 rakudo_svn r31887 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: STD.pm alignment -- add <args>, split out <morename> in <name>
18:39 speckbot r14593 | larry++ | clarify use of [...] and {...} in a signature
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18:50 rakudo_svn r31888 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  STD.pm alignment -- convert <identifier> in term:name to <name>
18:53 literal pugs: [*] 2, 3, 3.14
18:53 p6eval pugs: RESULT[471/25]
18:53 literal O_o
18:54 TimToady pugs are fond of rats
18:55 pugs_svn r22585 | lwall++ | [STD] implement [...] and {...} subsigs, rafl++ and moritz++
18:55 pugs_svn r22585 | lwall++ | [viv] warning suppression
18:56 TimToady now that I've broken the house, it's time to go on the roof
18:56 moritz_ TimToady: in that spec commit you used the same example twice, which seems a bit non-sensical to me
18:57 moritz_ copy & paste gone wrong?
18:58 TimToady example is right, but comment is wrong
18:58 TimToady fixing
18:58 speckbot r14594 | larry++ | copy/paste error, moritz++
19:00 TimToady afk & # roof
19:04 [particle] jump!
19:10 pmichaud std: /join #ppw
19:10 pmichaud oops!
19:10 p6eval std 22585: OUTPUT[parse failure␤]
19:10 [particle] wait, perl 6 doesn't understand irc syntax!?!?
19:11 [particle] ISAGN.
19:11 pmichaud std: ::Apache::foo 3, 4
19:11 p6eval std 22585: OUTPUT[parse failure␤]
19:11 pmichaud std: ::Apache::foo(3, 4)
19:11 p6eval std 22585: OUTPUT[parsed␤]
19:43 rakudo_svn r31889 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Eliminate bogus duplicate <name> rule.
19:45 * rjbs is looking for documentation on how to force an indirect subrule into a named capture.
19:46 rjbs Perhaps that is irrelevant...
19:46 rjbs my $members = /x/; my $object  = /'{' <$members> '}'/;
19:46 rjbs rakudo barfs, Statement not terminated properly at line 72, near "$members> "
19:49 pmichaud rjbs: the syntax is    my $object = / <$members> /;
19:49 pmichaud but that will use the value of $members at the time the regex is invoked, as opposed to when the regex is defined (I think)
19:49 pmichaud there's not really an "interpolation" mechanism like in p5
19:49 rjbs That's what I expect.
19:49 pmichaud (and rakudo doesn't currently support the <$foo> syntax, sadly.)
19:50 rjbs OH!
19:50 rjbs Well, that's a bit of a blocker.
19:50 pmichaud that will come with the next iteration of PGE
19:50 rjbs Thanks
19:50 rjbs Can I define named subrules inside a single rule?  (Like I can in Perl 5 v10)
19:50 BinGOs joined #perl6
19:51 rjbs Well, whatever, no worries.  Thanks very much!
19:51 moritz_ $stuff=(capture)
19:52 moritz_ rakudo: "abc" =~ m/$x:=(.)/; say $<x>;
19:52 p6eval rakudo 31889: OUTPUT[Method 'lvalue' not found for invocant of class 'PAST;Val'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PAST;Compiler;as_post' pc 2887 (src/PAST/Compiler.pir:736)␤]
19:52 moritz_ rakudo: "abc" =~ m/$x=(.)/; say $<x>;
19:52 p6eval rakudo 31889: OUTPUT[Method 'lvalue' not found for invocant of class 'PAST;Val'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PAST;Compiler;as_post' pc 2887 (src/PAST/Compiler.pir:736)␤]
19:52 moritz_ uhm :(
19:52 [particle] ahem
19:52 [particle] ~~ not =~
19:52 pmichaud rakudo:  "abc" ~~ /$x=(.)/; say $<x>
19:52 moritz_ ouch
19:52 p6eval rakudo 31889: OUTPUT[Use of uninitialized value␤␤]
19:53 rjbs yeah, what I want to do is reuse the (.) though
19:53 pmichaud rakudo:  "abc" ~~ /$<x>=(.)/; say $/<x>
19:53 p6eval rakudo 31889: OUTPUT[a␤]
19:53 rjbs by name rather than by cut and paste
19:53 rjbs but knowing $<x>=(.) is definitely useful too
19:53 moritz_ then use 'rule x { ... }'
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19:54 pmichaud rakudo:  regex x { . };  "abc" ~~ / <x> <x> <x> /; say $<x>[1];
19:54 p6eval rakudo 31889: OUTPUT[b␤]
19:54 rjbs woah. rakudo just went nuts
19:55 rjbs rule members = { 'x' }; my $object  = / '{' <members> '}' /;
19:55 rjbs perl6(7644) malloc: *** error for object 0x2a934a0: double free
19:55 rjbs *** set a breakpoint in malloc_error_break to debug
19:55 pmichaud wow, that's odd.
19:55 rjbs same for s/rule/regex
19:56 pmichaud no = in 'rule' statement
19:56 rjbs ha, duh
19:56 pmichaud I'm not sure why that's not a syntax error, though.
19:56 rjbs perfect
19:56 rjbs thanks much
19:56 rjbs gotta get ready to give my talk, back to this later
19:56 rjbs rule{ } is even better than <$rule anyway, for me
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22:18 rakudo_svn r31891 | cotto++ | [codingstd] trailing space fix
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