Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-10-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady if there were, it would be from reordering operators via precedence, I suspect
00:00 TimToady but mostly I just see O nodes copied up the tree
00:01 TimToady as for viv, there are still a number of missing action methods, I expect
00:03 mncharity re loop, ok.  could be me.  running STD_blue_run on elf_h_src/CommandLine.pm, even with a branch-local() %seen counter limit of 30, I was still hitting "seen this node too many times".  I'll explore.
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00:10 mncharity not something to worry about.  I'll report back.
00:10 TimToady well, lemme know if you have an example--I think I know where the bug might be
00:10 TimToady gotta wander off &
00:10 mncharity bye.  tnx for the help
00:15 mncharity re viv, it looks like STD_blue will just continue using the class-STD tree directly, rather than switching to viv.  since viv wasn't actually labeling the nodes, but rather depending on "no :=" etc for STD-specific guessing, I've just added that dependence to the existing STD_blue tree walker.
00:16 mncharity simpler, at least for now.
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00:45 pasteling "mncharity" at 98.216.110.149 pasted "my $x = $y.m();" (20 lines, 314B) at http://sial.org/pbot/32604
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00:49 mncharity TimToady: fyi, whatever it is I'm seeing, I note I see it on "my $x = $y.m();".  the above trace may provide a clue.  but again, I've not looked at it closely, and you needn't spend time on it on my account.  I wondered earler if you already knew whether/where cycles might be present, just as a way of avoid work duplication.  didn't intend to create an action item.
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01:17 pugs_svn r22593 | putter++ | [elfish/STD_blue] Dropped in STD_red elf_h IRx1_FromAST constructors.  Currently adapting them to the STD_blue/gimme5 ast.  -e 'say 3' works, but little else yet.
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07:29 pmurias_ @tell mncharity if you do you tree traversal with a DFS, that is mark the nodes you already visited your tree traversal should handle cycles
07:29 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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08:36 pugs_svn r22594 | pmurias++ | [mildew] a bit of progess on running t/pure_prototype_how.p6
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09:32 schmalbe Is there a document containing fulltext of all synopses ?
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09:46 literal schmalbe: http://perlcabal.org/syn/
09:46 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
09:49 schmalbe tnx, bookmarked it
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13:12 pmurias_ TimToady: is the strange indent from Cursor.pmc used anywhere?
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13:52 z80ASM hi, hackers
13:53 masak z80ASM: y0
13:53 z80ASM so bored... maybe should start programming something
13:54 masak might I suggest you take a look at this Perl 6 wiki project everyone's talking about? :)
13:54 z80ASM mmh... sure ;P
13:54 masak http://www.november-wiki.org/
13:54 lambdabot Title: Main_Page
13:54 masak http://github.com/viklund/november/
13:54 lambdabot Title: viklund's november at master — GitHub
13:56 masak suggested order of introduction: hit the README file, then talks/YAPC-EU-2008.pdf, then docs/, then the source in p5w/ and p6w/
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14:07 xiaoyafeng november is great, not on cross platform is a flaw.
14:08 masak xiaoyafeng: thank you. Parrot is also great, or at least going in the direction of greatness.
14:09 masak it's both cross-platform and cross-language, which is kind of mind-boggling when you think about it.
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14:17 mncharity TimToady, etal: it looks like gimme5 isn't including elsif clauses in its output?  'if 3 { 4 } elsif 5555 { 55555 }', the 5's didn't show up.  not pressing, just fyi.
14:17 lambdabot mncharity: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:19 pmurias_ mncharity: hi
14:20 mncharity pmurias_: thanks.  question is, what to then do when you see a  ... hi :)
14:21 pmurias_ when do you have a problem with circularity?
14:21 mncharity ... see a node again.  current "answer" is include it a few more times, in case the AST->IR converter needs it, then punt.  possible alternative is "just don't include the SIGIL field".  another possible answer is "stop being careless - the tree is fine".  we'll see.
14:22 mncharity re when, STD_blue_run --format=p5a
14:23 mncharity not sure I'd call it a problem, well, not a real one. :)  but an issue.
14:23 pmurias_ you could save circularity with assignment to a variable
14:23 pmurias_ or assume that AST->IR won't need it
14:25 mncharity yes, that one (won't need)
14:25 mncharity :)
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14:27 mncharity basically, circularity is unexpected, probably shouldn't be there, and would require some small work to deal with.  so "before simply adapting, try knocking it off".
14:29 mncharity bit of progress.  checkin later.  back later.   cheers &
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14:32 pugs_svn r22595 | putter++ | [elfish/STD_blue] Continuing to adapt constructors.
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14:39 pugs_svn r22596 | pmurias++ | [mildew] added a --desugar option to see Perl 6 code converted to method calls
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15:02 lichtkind pmichaud: there?
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15:37 pugs_svn r22597 | pmurias++ | [mildew] improved --deparse, ^!
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15:40 TimToady pmurias_: I don't think indent is used currently, though its big brother in gimme5 is used all over the place.  I think I used to use it to generate lexers back before I switched to a tabualr format.
15:40 TimToady *tabular
15:47 TimToady @tell mncharity yep, that's why I'm writing "viv --p6", to see what's not there that should be.  I figure if I can reproduce the original exactly then I'm not forgetting anything crucial.
15:47 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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15:51 pmurias_ TimToady: i'm even using  the one from gimme5 in mildew, but the one in Cursor.pmc seems broken (it inserts blank lines)
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16:25 ruoso TimToady, re: Foo::Bar.randommethod()... my reasoning was that *method* invocation applies to Classes, not all types of packages... therefore Foo::Bar wouldn't be found as a Class... unless we accept that all types of packages can be coerced to classes to do some basic things... otherwise. Foo::Bar.WHAT would return 'Package'
16:27 ruoso TimToady, I do understand, however, that WHAT is a macro, but I'd rather accept the coercion to keep the semantic consistency...
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16:50 azawawi hi
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16:51 azawawi @seen moritz_
16:51 lambdabot moritz_ is in #perl6. I last heard moritz_ speak 20h 18m 23s ago.
16:51 * moritz_ waves hi to azawawi and then has to leave for his table tennis game
16:51 moritz_ but I'll backlog ;)
16:51 azawawi have fun ;-)
16:51 moritz_ thanks
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16:58 pmurias_ ruoso: hi
16:59 pmurias_ ruoso: the way STD handles is if Foo::Bar is a know type it is a type else it's a package
17:01 pmurias_ STD:3248
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17:15 azawawi rakudo: say <a b c d>[-2, -1]
17:15 p6eval rakudo 31926: OUTPUT[c␤]
17:15 azawawi pugs: say <a b c d>[-2, -1]
17:15 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[cd␤]
17:15 Zoffix 0_p
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18:05 TimToady pmurias_: no, if it's not a known type it
18:06 TimToady is a function
18:06 TimToady packages are considered degenerate types
18:08 TimToady and any package name may be used as a protoobject, even if we don't know anything about the type yet
18:09 azawawi what the correct way to read a line from stdin in p6?
18:10 TimToady =$*IN
18:10 PerlJam greetings
18:10 TimToady or =<>, if no command line args
18:11 PerlJam I still want to write =<$*IN> sometimes
18:12 azawawi what about 'my $foo = $*IN.readline;'?
18:12 azawawi i noticed that pugs also allows bare readline...
18:12 TimToady not sure if that will be official
18:14 azawawi $*IN.readline or readline alone or readline?
18:14 TimToady any of those
18:14 azawawi thx
18:15 TimToady but likely there's some single-dispatch api for iterators, and whatever that is...
18:16 TimToady so maybe $*IN.shift or some such
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18:16 PerlJam $*IN.more_please
18:16 TimToady whatever the multi-dispatch prefix:<=> calls underneath
18:16 pmurias_ TimToady: sorry, i should reread code before misleading others
18:17 PerlJam $*IN.thank_you_sir_may_I_have_another
18:17 TimToady so almost certainly *not* readline
18:17 azawawi rakudo: my $foo = =<>; say $foo;
18:17 p6eval rakudo 31926: OUTPUT[-1␤]
18:18 azawawi rakudo returns -1 on =<>
18:18 TimToady pugs:  my $foo = =<>; say $foo;
18:18 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** Unsafe function '=' called under safe mode␤    at /tmp/WwLB9u6bfm line 1, column 6-14␤]
18:18 TimToady that makes more sense
18:20 azawawi rakudo: my $foo = =$*IN; say $foo;
18:20 pmurias_ OTOH it would be cool if it spawned a new bot waiting for input
18:21 azawawi that should be waiting for sure...
18:22 azawawi under rakudo, only =$*IN and $*IN.readline currently work
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18:24 pmurias_ azawawi: it might be waiting for input from the standard input the evalbot recived
18:24 pmurias_ rakudo: say 1
18:25 azawawi rakudo: say "anything";
18:25 pmurias_ pugs: 1
18:25 PerlJam TimToady: why isn't $*IN.shift blessed?  Or have you just not thought about it in enough detail beyond "not readline"?
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18:28 TimToady several reasons
18:28 TimToady one of which is confusion between multiple dispatch apis and single dispatch
18:29 TimToady another of which is the principle of "just do it like P5"
18:29 TimToady yet another is "filehandles are just iterators"
18:29 TimToady vs "filehandles *aren't* just iterators"
18:30 TimToady for instance, suppose you want to generalize =<>, which does double iteration
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18:31 TimToady =@filenames doesn't read the lines from each file like =<> does from @*ARGV
18:31 TimToady @*ARGS rather
18:31 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
18:31 TimToady not sure whether that worthwhile
18:31 TimToady *that is
18:34 TimToady and maybe there's something going on with a slice of iterators
18:35 TimToady and =[;] @filenames woudl be what =<> is really doing
18:38 TimToady more succinctly, =@*ARGS gives you the next filename, whereas =@@*ARGS gives you the next line
18:38 TimToady or maybe something inside out from that
18:40 * PerlJam is *so* glad he's not a language designer  :)
18:47 pmurias_ TimToady: is VAST::Methocall intended?
18:48 TimToady nope
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18:50 TimToady well, what are you asking, really?
18:51 pmurias_ i see VAST::Methodcall nodes in VAST and they seem strange
18:52 TimToady it's just a precedence level, really
18:52 TimToady so anything postfixey tends to look like that
18:53 TimToady except for ++ maybe
18:54 pmurias_ why aren't VAST nodes subclasses of Match?
18:54 TimToady because they're not parse trees, they're abstract(er)
18:57 pmurias_ is VAST intended to diverge much from the parse tree?
18:58 TimToady it's intended to be something that is easy to walk and spit out p5 so I can replace gimme5
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19:18 TimToady or maybe =<> is really ==@*ARGS, where prefix:<==> iterates a list of iterators, or a tree of iterators
19:24 TimToady but a good functional programmer would pass prefix:<=> to a visitor, I suppose, though it's not nice for visitors to be destructive
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19:56 azawawi good night
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20:15 moritz_ re
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20:53 partclCoke ~
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22:35 pugs_svn r22598 | lwall++ | [99problems] caller must be caller() before something that looks like arguments
22:50 mncharity TimToady: just in case the STD circularity remains an open issue of interest, I note '$a.m == 0 ' results in chain=>[  {arg=> {post=> {arg=> ...
22:50 lambdabot mncharity: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:52 mncharity TimToady: apropos viv vs gimme5, so has gimme5 development ceased?  is the plan to fix things like the mising elsif clauses in gimme5, or punt until viv exists?
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22:54 TimToady have a fix for it already
22:54 mncharity :)
22:54 TimToady just running the test
22:55 mncharity np, no hurry, just wondering the plan.
22:55 TimToady actually, half way through, so probably good enough to check in
22:55 TimToady (fix for circularity, not elsif)
22:57 ruoso TimToady, just a sanity check... so Foo::Bar.baz() will attempt to "coerce" the package to a dumb class that might even provide a method baz() even not being an actual class?
22:57 pugs_svn r22599 | lwall++ | [STD] fix circularity bug in unary and binary ops
22:57 pugs_svn r22599 | lwall++ | [viv] more progress in ~ delimiters through
22:57 TimToady something like that--might even degrade down to a P5ish dispatcher
22:58 mncharity apropos "reproduce the original exactly" (as a test of some parse tree's correctness), I note that I have learned fear of that concept.  it always seems attractive, but since diffs often remain unusable until a sea of little nits get precisely dealt with, my attempts in that direction often converge too slowly to succeed.
22:59 TimToady depends on how you define "succeed"
22:59 TimToady and on how stubborn you are... :)
22:59 mncharity lol
22:59 ruoso TimToady, hmmm... that's actually a very sane option... a class-less package when coerced to a class returns a class that has a p5-like dispatcher as HOW
22:59 TimToady I know that's the only thing that worked for MAD
23:00 mncharity re (fix for circularity, not elsif), ah, oh, drat. ;)
23:00 TimToady the elsif problem is a little hairier, something to do with trying to bind a quantified parenthesis maybe
23:02 TimToady anyway, it's probably putting the $<elsif> binding inside the parens and then throwing it all away
23:02 mncharity re MAD, ah.  yeah.  So I guess my observation is "the path can be unexpectedly expensive".
23:02 mncharity given MAD, you know this.
23:02 TimToady some kinds of success can only be bought for "expensive"
23:03 TimToady and in that case it was something I had to pay for my earlier transgressions :)
23:05 mncharity re circularity patch, I confirm my loops have gone away.  happiness.
23:05 mncharity lol
23:06 mncharity language implementation as penance.  fun concept.
23:08 TimToady may have a workaround for elsif problem, compiling
23:10 pugs_svn r22600 | lwall++ | [STD] workaround for elsif problem; put extra [] to move quantifier outside of binding
23:10 TimToady seems to do the trick
23:11 TimToady changed $<x> = (...)* to [$<x> = (...)]*
23:11 TimToady some there's some screwup between quantifiers and binding
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23:15 TimToady s/some/so
23:15 _fer_ hello folks
23:15 TimToady what about those of us that aren't folks?
23:16 _fer_ sorry, I'm not speak english very well and I think that may be a good way to say "hello"
23:16 _fer_ :-)
23:16 TimToady it's fine, I'm just giving you a hard time :)
23:16 _fer_ ok
23:17 _fer_ you are the only person on this channel
23:17 _fer_ ?
23:17 TimToady there are quite a few people, but they're mostly asleep
23:17 TimToady and those who look in every few minutes are likely off hacking on something on the side
23:17 _fer_ where are you=
23:18 _fer_ ?
23:18 TimToady in my chair at the office
23:18 _fer_ In wich county
23:18 _fer_ country
23:18 _fer_ I'm from argentina
23:18 TimToady US of A
23:18 _fer_ aaaa ok
23:18 meppl good night
23:18 TimToady I've flown over Argentina
23:19 _fer_ yes?, and you like it?
23:19 TimToady well, the Andes are pretty
23:19 _fer_ do you visit Buenos Aires?
23:19 TimToady but I only landed in Chile and Uruguay
23:19 _fer_ aaaa, ok
23:19 _fer_ you must visit Buenos aires
23:19 _fer_ is a beautifull place
23:20 TimToady I hope to get there someday
23:20 _fer_ I live in Buenos Aires
23:20 _fer_ where do you live?
23:20 TimToady California
23:20 mncharity g'night meppl
23:20 _fer_ Beach boys
23:20 _fer_ :-)
23:21 TimToady "I wish they all could be California girls..."
23:21 meppl ;)
23:21 _fer_ if you could see the argentinean girls don't you say thar :-)
23:30 mncharity if()s working.  yay.  tnx.
23:43 kst`` joined #perl6
23:43 mncharity "We the passing generation have had to grope our way out of the dark slowly and painfully, with trial and error. But what has to be pardoned to us can no longer be pardoned to our successors, to whom we bequeath the costly knowledge and painful experiences that have cost us so dear, but which we have gladly earned, and now painstakingly contribute for their instruction, and the advancement of their future..."
23:43 mncharity oh, i'm so very tired of ast groveling.
23:44 TimToady just think how much easier this would all be in Haskell :)
23:45 mncharity lol.  sigh.

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