Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-10-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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04:45 slavik hmm
04:46 slavik I got a grammar thing to work :)
04:46 slavik sort of
04:53 slavik if I have two rules in a grammar, how can I match a string against the whole grammar an then figure out what rule in the grammar was matched?
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05:58 azawawi moritz_: ping
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09:02 pmurias mj41_: the sial.org link doesn't work for me
09:19 ihrd yes, "Proxy Error"
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09:30 pmurias or an not found one when using https
09:31 pmurias https defeats proxies right?
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11:37 pugs_svn r22649 | pmurias++ | [mildew] runs mildew/t/pure_prototype_how.t
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12:38 masak is "file".:e supposed to work in Perl 6 without quoting the ':e' part?
12:38 masak rakudo: say '.'.':e'
12:38 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[Method ':e' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 30 (EVAL_14:16)␤]
12:39 masak ah, seems my change from yesterday hasn't reached p6eval yet
12:55 pmurias masak: i guess it should
12:55 masak I guess so too.
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12:56 masak right now Rakudo rejects the syntax with a funny error message
12:56 pmurias S12:739
12:56 pmurias pugs: 'foo'.:e
12:56 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤    Unexpected ":e"␤    expecting ".", "\187", ">>", "=", "^", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "--", "++", "i", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript␤    at /tmp/lJA1UZsNvk line 1, column 7␤]
12:57 masak aye. I've seen it used in other places in the synopses as well. S16, frex.
12:58 masak I'll send rakudobug an email about it.
13:01 masak done.
13:10 pmurias masak: i *could* add .:e support to mildew but it's not exactly on the ROADMAP right now
13:10 masak pmurias: not asking you to. :)
13:10 masak I'm just thinking along these lines because I added "file" ~~ :e support to Rakudo yesterday
13:11 masak pmurias: btw, I hear this 'mildew' name being dropped all the time nowadays. I thought you guys were building sm0p and m0ld and stuff. where does mildew fit into the picture?
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13:14 pugs_svn r22650 | pmurias++ | [mildew] infix:<:=>
13:14 pmurias masak: sm0p is dead
13:14 pmurias mildew is our perl6 compiler
13:14 masak nice
13:14 masak what does it compile to?
13:14 pmurias m0ld
13:14 masak :)
13:15 masak which is...?
13:15 pmurias the assembler
13:15 masak so, sort of like PIR?
13:15 pmurias yes
13:15 pmurias with a perl6 syntax and 4 opcodes
13:16 masak is Perl 5 compatibility on the ROADMAP?
13:16 pmurias yes
13:16 masak good. that's a killer feature.
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13:16 pmurias ruoso: hi
13:16 masak ruoso: hi
13:17 ruoso hi pmurias masak
13:17 lambdabot ruoso: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:17 * ruoso just lost a morning doing maintainance in his Thinkpad T60
13:18 ruoso a bad contact fixed with a small piece of alluminum and a small rubber band to keep the pressure
13:18 * ruoso hates computer parts that are not fixeable by amateurs...
13:20 pmurias ruoso: pure_prototype_how.t runs
13:20 ruoso YAY!
13:20 ruoso pmurias++
13:22 * ruoso svn update'ing
13:31 ruoso pmurias, while it runs, I can't see the output...
13:34 pmurias how do you run it?
13:34 ruoso v6/mildew$ perl mildew --file t/variable_declaration.p6 | LD_LIBRARY_PATH=../smop/build/ ../smop/m0ld/dist/build/m0ld/m0ld --exec
13:35 pmurias make'd smop?
13:35 ruoso yes
13:35 ruoso I even removed build and m0ld/dist
13:36 ruoso and rebuilt everything
13:36 ruoso including './Setup configure --flags=SMOP; ./Setup build'
13:36 ruoso inside m0ld
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13:37 pmurias it works here, maybe i have old something
13:40 pmurias you could nopaste perl mildew --file t/variable_declaration.p6 --desugar
13:40 pmurias i rebuild STD, rm -fr lex and rm -fr build;make in smop and it prints output
13:41 ruoso ok... let me rebuild STD
13:41 pmurias btw t/variable_declaration.p6 is a different test
13:41 ruoso yeah... I know...
13:43 ruoso pmurias++ # rebuilding STD works
13:43 pmurias something like gobby for shells would be nice
13:45 ruoso we could have the evalbot updated to use mildew instead of pugs for smop
13:46 ruoso that's very cool
13:47 ruoso because we're actually using STD as the parser for SMOP
13:54 pmurias i'm not really sure how do procced with adding a new evalbot backend
13:55 ruoso pmurias, at first we could have mildew optionally accepting STDIN
14:02 pugs_svn r22651 | pmurias++ | [mildew] defining simple subs argumentless subs with <:=>
14:04 pmurias ruoso: feel free to change mildew's interface any way you like
14:04 ruoso :)
14:08 pmurias as long as you don't use the elf one with swarms of one letter options which do evil things
14:09 ruoso I'm just planning to fallback to STDIN if no --file is set
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14:11 pugs_svn r22652 | ruoso++ | [mildew] fallsback to STDIN if no --file is set
14:13 ruoso mildew$ echo '$OUT.print("Hello World!\n")' | perl mildew | LD_LIBRARY_PATH=../smop/build/ ../smop/m0ld/dist/build/m0ld/m0ld --exec
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14:15 pmurias lunch&
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14:46 ruoso :D brazil just won the futsal world cup ;)
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14:51 masak ruoso: congratulations.
14:51 ruoso :D
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15:21 masak can you store a reference to a method in a variable?
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15:40 pmurias masak: yes
15:40 masak how?
15:40 pmurias my $method = method {...}
15:41 masak ah, but I mean en existing method, one that was declared already in some class that I maybe didn't write
15:41 pmurias you could use the meta protocol
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16:00 pugs_svn r22653 | pmurias++ | [mildew]
16:00 pugs_svn r22653 | pmurias++ | --exec option to execute the code instead of just compiling
16:00 pugs_svn r22653 | pmurias++ | "make test" runs all mildew tests
16:00 pmurias TimToady: any ideas how to reduce the STD startup time?
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16:26 [bobrik] any gentoo users here?
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16:32 TimToady STD starts up in less than a second, so you must mean something else
17:04 pmurias [bobrik]: i'm an gentoo ex-user
17:04 [bobrik] pmurias: how did you installed parrot with perl6 support? languages/perl6 is empty for me =(
17:05 pmurias TimToady: mildew executing a single test takes ~1.0 sec
17:05 pmurias [bobrik]: if it's empty for you propably have a broken checkout
17:10 pmurias TimToady: i could use joint compilation for tests if they become to numerous (>30)
17:12 [bobrik] pmurias: `emerge parrot`
17:12 [bobrik] build workdir contain perl6
17:12 [bobrik] pmurias: how did you install that?
17:12 pmurias you should propably checkout parrot from version control and build it yourself
17:13 pmurias [bobrik]: i didn't install parrot
17:14 [bobrik] you checked it from svn and built yourself?
17:15 pmurias yes
17:17 moritz_ re
17:17 lambdabot moritz_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:17 moritz_ @massages
17:17 lambdabot azawawi said 1d 9h 45m 59s ago: im interested in http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2008/07/msg788.html.
17:18 moritz_ pmurias: re mildew, what do I need to run it?
17:18 pmurias moritz_: perl mildew --exec --file file
17:19 moritz_ pmurias: does it need write access anywhereß
17:19 moritz_ s/ß/?/
17:19 pmurias lex propably
17:19 moritz_ v6/mildew/lex?
17:19 pmurias and you need to compile m0ld v6/smop/m0ld with ./Setup configure --flags=SMOP;./Setup build
17:19 pmurias yes
17:19 pmurias it's STD based
17:21 moritz_ @tell azawawi go right ahead ;)
17:21 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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17:24 moritz_ pmurias: setting up lex/ rw for the 'evalbot' user is a bit of an effort, so I don't know if I'll do it today... but if it's not done by Wednesday, feel free to bug me again ;)
17:24 pmurias moritz_: you did it for pixie right?
17:25 moritz_ pmurias: no, but for STD.pm
17:25 pmurias pixie: say 1
17:25 p6eval pixie: No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
17:25 pmurias pixie: 1
17:25 p6eval pixie: No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
17:25 moritz_ does pixie re-use STD.pm's lex cache?
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17:26 pmurias don't remember, pixie is not important
17:26 moritz_ ok ;)
17:26 moritz_ is it still developed?
17:26 pmurias no
17:26 moritz_ then I'll rip it out of evalbot
17:26 pmurias fine, it's broken anyway
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17:28 * ruoso .oO( doing maintainance on laptops sucks )
17:29 pmurias ruoso: you are aware we fake stacklessness for other interpreters by saving an restoring the stack in an unportable manner?
17:30 ruoso what do you mean?
17:31 pmurias s/an/and
17:31 pmurias ruoso: it's possible to save the C stack if we are willing to resort to assembler
17:31 ruoso we don't even need to go to assembler
17:31 ruoso C99 specs longjmp
17:32 * ruoso wonders if pmurias meant "aware that we *could* fake"
17:34 pmurias yes
17:34 ruoso yes... I'm aware of that.. and in fact... that is probably a good way to provide p5 XS integration
17:34 ruoso that subject was discussed this week
17:35 ruoso about getting p5 XS macros and changing it when building the SMOP p5 interpreter
17:35 ruoso and subverting the current XS macros to do this kind of hack
17:35 ruoso TimToady even said that was the ponie idea
17:36 ruoso considering SMOP p5 would require a recompilation of binary modules... which seems just fine...
17:36 pmurias why would we need to change the XS macroes?
17:37 ruoso because the C code inside XS modules might be recursing on the p5 interpreter using the C stack
17:37 ruoso so we would need to change the macros so that instead of doing the call, it would save the current stack and recurse without using the C stack
17:40 ruoso in fact... this trick could be used to remove current p5 non-stacklessness
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17:46 pmurias ruoso: can longjump also "rewind" the stack or only unwind it?
17:46 ruoso pmurias, setjmp is the reverse
17:49 ruoso pmurias, are you aware that the latest changes broke tests in smop?
17:49 pmurias hm, checking
17:50 ruoso pmurias, it looks ".^!how()" in p6opaque is not working as expected
17:56 pugs_svn r22654 | moritz++ | [docs/tutorial] (aka book) many clean ups and enhancements to ch07_grammars.pod.
17:56 pugs_svn r22654 | moritz++ | Also other small fixes.
17:56 pugs_svn r22655 | pmurias++ | [smop] fixed failing p6opaque tests
17:57 ruoso pmurias, I'm not sure the recusion in p6opaque is a good idea
17:58 ruoso that ckecing should probably be made inside the sm0p block (which could be translated to m0ld)
17:59 ruoso we even have the ri test already
17:59 pmurias propably, it wouldn't change anything the way p6opaque is currently implemented
18:00 ruoso pmurias, do I translate it to m0ld or you do it?
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18:03 pmurias you can do it
18:04 ruoso ok
18:04 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/tidings-2008-10.html # any comments?
18:04 lambdabot Title: blog | Perlgeek.de Blog :: Perl 6 Tidings from September and October 2008
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18:11 pmurias moritz_: s/kreep/creep/ # OTOH maybe it's intentional
18:11 literal moritz_: awesome
18:11 ruoso moritz_, awesome, indeed
18:13 pmurias moritz_: re syntax highlighter plugging something like that into STD5_run shouldn't be hard
18:13 pmurias * STD5_dump_match
18:14 moritz_ pmurias: probably, but I didn't grok the code :/
18:16 pmurias traverse_match creates an array of events (like rule starts, rule ends) and process_events executes them in the order of their positions in the source file
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18:17 pmurias moritz_: it should become clearer if you what the $events passed to traverse_match contains after the topmost traverse_match finishes
18:18 literal moritz_: I see a few typos, "simple most solution" (most simple solution) and "hybernating"/"hybernates" (hibernating/hibernates), "agend" (agenda)
18:19 moritz_ literal: thanks, fixed
18:19 pmurias moritz_: and you didn't mention that smop now uses viv ;)
18:19 moritz_ pmurias: does it? how? through mildew?
18:20 moritz_ pmurias: just write a paragraph or two about it, and I'll add them to the page
18:20 pmurias yes, mildew uses viv
18:23 pmurias moritz_: as a comment?
18:27 moritz_ pmurias: or nopaste it, then I'll add it to the main posting
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18:31 pmurias SMOP now has a new compiler mildew which uses viv/STD as it's parser.
18:31 pmurias Mildew supports only a handfull of stuff now (creating an object with a simpilified meta model being the most advanced one)
18:31 pmurias is the most i came up with ;)
18:35 moritz_ pmurias: ok, updated the post
18:35 moritz_ it now reads "SMOP now has a new compiler named mildew which uses viv/STD as its parser. Right now it supports only a handfull of operations, the most advanced of it is creating an object with a simplified meta model.
18:35 moritz_ It lives in the Pugs repository under v6/mildew/."
18:35 pedrob joined #perl6
18:38 pmurias any one willing to hack on it in perl5 is welcome to come to #perl6
18:38 pmurias ;)
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18:51 azawawi ping
18:51 lambdabot azawawi: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:52 moritz_ pong ;)
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18:54 azawawi so basically we should look for '_from','_to' of the deepest leaf of the yaml output
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18:54 moritz_ that should work, I think
18:55 azawawi moritz_: the problem is that the type is not provided in the yaml output
18:57 moritz_ azawawi: I don't think you need to actually care about the yaml or json thing... take a look at the `tryfile' script
18:57 moritz_ instead of Dump($r) in the last line you can work with $r directly
18:57 pasteling "azawawi" at 212.38.141.105 pasted "yaml output of 'my $foo = "hello"'" (139 lines, 3.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/32716
18:58 * azawawi looking at it
18:58 moritz_ azawawi: I think the "reduced" is the most interesting thing, it gives you the name of the rule
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19:00 azawawi moritz_: hmmm, then we simply match _reduced:'variable' to its color and we're done ;-)
19:00 moritz_ azawawi: I don't know if it's that easy, but you can find out by trying ;)
19:02 azawawi moritz_: any favourite color scheme for highlighting? ;-)
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19:03 moritz_ azawawi: I like vim's, but I don't really care
19:03 moritz_ azawawi: colors are just constants, and easy to change
19:03 moritz_ azawawi: even better, you could emit xhtml + <span class="syn_variable"> and the like, so colors could be changed in the csss
19:03 moritz_ s/csss/css/
19:04 azawawi moritz_: nicely said...
19:04 pmurias azawawi: you're implementing the syntax highligher?
19:04 azawawi moritz_: already did it in runpugs
19:04 azawawi pmurias: yeah... trying ;-)
19:05 pmurias if you want to work with an array of rule starts and ends you can reuse the code in DumpMath.pm
19:05 pmurias in src/perl6
19:08 pmurias azawawi: or i can do it
19:09 azawawi pmurias: what XML is it talking about in DumpMath.pm?
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19:14 pugs_svn r22656 | pmurias++ | added STD_syntax_highlight a prove of concept core of a syntax highlighter
19:14 pmurias azawawi: old comment meant to remove it for a long time ;)
19:15 pmurias azawawi: STD5_dump_match has a second output mode which spits out the match in XML like format (--horizontal) which was the default a long time ago
19:19 azawawi pmurias++
19:20 pmurias azawawi: are you hacking or STD_syntax_hightlight now (want to avoid duplication, we can gobby of course ;)
19:21 azawawi pmurias: hacking... ;-)
19:22 azawawi pmurias: STD_syntax_highlight does not understand pod comments
19:23 moritz_ that's probably because they are parsed with <.ws>, which doesn't show up in the parse tree
19:25 pasteling "mj41" at 147.229.5.124 pasted "subversion problem inside pugs/v6/smop/m0ld directory" (28 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/32717
19:29 pmurias mj41_: general subversion evilness
19:30 pmurias rm -fr m0ld
19:30 pmurias svn up m0ld
19:34 pmurias azawawi: we could change the STD.pmc creation process to keep all info
19:35 pasteling "azawawi" at 212.38.141.105 pasted "possible output from STD_syntax_highlight 'my $foo="Hello"'" (25 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/32718
19:37 moritz_ azawawi: it would be much more useful to have each piece of text embedded in only one <span>...</span>
19:38 pmurias moritz_: it would be premature optimalisation
19:38 azawawi moritz_: sure, but that info can be used later to show the parse tree on a click on '$foo' for instance...
19:38 * moritz_ shuts up ;)
19:39 pmurias azawawi: commit early, commit often
19:39 moritz_ aye
19:41 azawawi pmurias: shall i start working on STD_syntax_highlight then?
19:41 * pmurias notices that commit yearly is frighteningly similar
19:41 pmurias azawawi: so the example was a manual mockup ;)
19:41 pmurias ?
19:41 azawawi yeah
19:42 azawawi pmurias: i took your output and modified it
19:42 azawawi pmurias: "possible output from STD_syntax_highlight" ;-)
19:42 pmurias you can start working if you want
19:42 azawawi pmurias: thx for jumpstarting the project ;-)
19:43 pmurias i don't have the patience to write all the CSS rules so i wouldn't set upon it myself
19:44 azawawi pmurias: javascript + css is my domain ;-)
19:45 pmurias shower&
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20:27 pmurias azawawi: how the syntax highlighter going ? :)
20:27 azawawi pmurias: nicely... nearly there
20:28 literal will it work with vim? :P
20:29 pmurias literal: i'm afraid not
20:29 moritz_ literal: you don't want that. For a syntax hilighter in an editor you want something that doesn't die when it finds a syntax error ;)
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20:34 pmurias moritz_: not nessesarly
20:35 pmurias necessarily, STD could serve as a sort of syntax checker
20:36 moritz_ well, it could be made as a hook on :w
20:39 pmurias literal: it should be possible to write a STD based syntax highlighter for vim
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20:44 pugs_svn r22657 | azawawi++ | updated STD_syntax_highlight to output some colors
20:48 pugs_svn r22658 | moritz++ | [STD_syntax_highlight] also emit <pre>...</pre> tags around code
20:50 pmurias moritz_: should pre be done by CSS?
20:51 moritz_ pmurias: don't think so
20:52 moritz_ so that non-CSS-aware clients display it as correctly as possible
20:53 pmurias non-CSS-aware clients don't see the color
20:54 moritz_ pmurias: but then they see at least the whitespaces
20:55 pmurias moritz_: do you use or now of anyone using non-CSS-aware clients?
20:55 moritz_ pmurias: links and lynx
20:56 azawawi moritz_: mobile devices
20:57 moritz_ azawawi: I'd like to introduce a two-stage translation, for example I'd translate both scope_declarator and routine_declarator to 'keyword', and then only emit a css calss for 'keyword' - does that meet your approval?
20:58 azawawi moritz_: yeah why not
20:58 moritz_ (background: I don't know if it's a good idea to emit a few hundred css classes)
20:59 azawawi moritz_: let us not optimize atm
21:00 moritz_ as you wish ;)
21:00 * azawawi studying the STD grammar...
21:02 azawawi pmurias: how do we get token 'pod_comment'?
21:03 pmurias we can compile a custom STD
21:05 moritz_ I think TimToady will be interested in solving that problem soon too
21:06 azawawi i think it can also be detected without any STD.pm change... looking at the html output
21:06 pmurias azawawi: you mean doing manual reparsing of the whitespace?
21:07 moritz_ pmurias: not re-parsing... but everything that's not matched by any rule got to be a whitespace
21:07 azawawi pmurias: when all spans are closed, that's a whitespace
21:07 * azawawi testing this theory
21:08 pmurias moritz_: everything is matched by topmost rule
21:08 pugs_svn r22659 | moritz++ | [STD_syntax_highlight] HTML-Escape <>&". Add a few CSS classes.
21:09 pmurias it should be possible to turn <.foo> into <foo> with either a modified gimme5 or a STD preprocessor
21:10 moritz_ ... or with the :keepall modifier
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21:11 pmurias that's the theoretical solution
21:13 cathyal OT
21:13 cathyal pascal is delphi these days?
21:14 moritz_ iirc delphi = pascal + gui (+ objects?)
21:14 cathyal ohh
21:14 cathyal really?
21:14 cathyal woah
21:14 cathyal didnt think pascal still existed
21:16 pmurias some people learn it a the "first" language in Eastern Europe
21:17 cathyal yeah we had it in school
21:17 cathyal pascal i.e
21:17 moritz_ it's commonly used as a teaching language
21:17 moritz_ or at least it used to be
21:19 cathyal speakinog of which
21:19 cathyal something about haskell
21:19 cathyal i am thinking that Elaine's symbolic progrmaming language in Enochian will be based on Haskell ?
21:19 cathyal are there any symbolic languages based on haskell yet\
21:23 pmurias cathyal: Enochian and Elaine being?
21:25 cathyal pmurias: http://www.millvexations.co
21:25 cathyal pmurias: http://www.millvexations.com
21:25 lambdabot Title: Mill Avenue Vexations: Sub-Culture in Tempe, Arizona
21:27 cathyal elaine is a girl; and Enochian is an old symbolic ciphertext psudeolingustic language designed by John Dee as the supposed "language of the angels
21:29 pugs_svn r22660 | moritz++ | [STD_syntax_highlight] some more colors
21:30 pmurias cathyal: haskell and esothericisms are on the opposed ends of the spectrum
21:31 pmurias and clearly Lisp is the language from which the gods wrought the universe.
21:31 * moritz_ has enough trouble remebering one fantasy language
21:31 moritz_ pmurias: ... except that they hacked most of it together in perl, actually ;)
21:32 cathyal so are you saying lisp is what should be used
21:32 moritz_ http://xkcd.com/224/
21:32 lambdabot Title: xkcd - A Webcomic - Lisp
21:34 cathyal so whats a good langhuage for this
21:34 cathyal haskell was in mind
21:34 moritz_ was haskell in mind /me goes to bed
21:35 moritz_ s/was/with/
21:37 cathyal heh
21:37 cathyal so then ?
21:43 pmurias cathyal: angels should be communicating in a programming language
21:46 pmurias * shouldn't
21:46 pmurias unless they are robotic
21:53 cathyal heh
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