Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-10-21

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:30 pugs_svn r22690 | ruoso++ | [smop] p6opaque no longer uses v6-sm0p, uses m0ld in its place. p6opaque comes with a default how that implements using the p6opaque as a value, something that is needed to allow you to set a how.
00:33 ruoso @tell pmurias, there's a quasi-segfault in proto.ri... some place is making an excess release, valgrind is complaining about use of free'd data...
00:33 lambdabot Consider it noted.
00:35 wayland76 @tell moritz_ Thanks for the article!
00:35 lambdabot Consider it noted.
00:35 * ruoso sleep &
00:39 wayland76 particle: Well, the ROADMAP file in the languages/perl6 directory was last updated in August, and I was interested to see if any of those tasks had been completed :)
00:40 wayland76 ruoso: G'night
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00:57 wayland76 To answer literal's question the other day, rakudo gets released with Parrot, doesn't it?
01:02 literal yeah, that's true
01:08 [particle] yes
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01:21 literal if all(@newvals) > all(@oldvals) { print "These are all bigger than everything already seen." }
01:21 literal can it also be written like this?   if all @newvals > all @oldvals { print "These are all bigger than everything already seen." }
01:31 pmichaud literal: the > operation has higher precedence than list prefix (listop), so the second one would end up parsing as   all( @newvals > all(@oldvals) )
01:31 lambdabot pmichaud: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:31 literal ah
01:31 pmichaud so the parens are required.
01:32 pmichaud same with something like    say 3 > 1;    that's equivalent to   say( 3 > 1 )   and not   say(3) > 1
01:32 literal now I'm curious, would this do the right thing? if [&] @newvals > [&] @oldvals { ... }
01:32 pmichaud same issue -- [&] is a list prefix op
01:33 literal ok
01:52 wayland76 [particle]: Was that "yes" related to my immediate previous comment, or to my comment about the ROADMAP?
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06:42 pugs_svn r22691 | lwall++ | [Cursor] don't cache anonymous lexers
06:42 TimToady (well, not on disk, anyway)
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07:19 azawawi rx.t took 5486 wallclock secs
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08:04 azawawi moritz_: ping
08:05 pasteling "azawawi" at 212.38.144.4 pasted "Execution time of ETOOMUCHTIME (STD_Syntax_Highlighter)" (377 lines, 26K) at http://sial.org/pbot/32762
08:07 pasteling "azawawi" at 212.38.144.4 pasted "ETOOMUCHTIME full output [includes errors]" (2216 lines, 73.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/32763
08:07 wayland76 no-one here except us pigeons :)
08:07 azawawi pong
08:07 azawawi ;-)
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08:08 azawawi what r u working on wayland76?
08:15 azawawi @tell pmurias i attached the full output along with the summary in http://sial.org/pbot/32762 and http://sial.org/pbot/32763
08:15 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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09:03 wayland76 azawawi: Well, mostly I'm waiting for operator overloading :)
09:04 azawawi wayland76: that took some time ;-)
09:04 wayland76 In relation to perl6, I'm kinda keen to get some sort of path/globbing thing going for trees
09:05 wayland76 yeah, I only check IRC occasionally, although it's often running in the background somewhere
09:06 wayland76 But since I don't speak PIR or anything, it basically consisted of a) frantically write tree code for a few days, and b) realise that Perl6 (at least in its Rakudo form) wasn't up to doing what I wanted yet
09:06 wayland76 :)
09:07 wayland76 What I'd like is to be able to get my hands on the tree of something that's been read in by a grammar
09:07 wayland76 (could be XML, but could be something else; I don't mind at the moment :) )
09:07 * azawawi fixing a nasty bug with firefox unload handler
09:09 wayland76 Everything else I want to do is pretty much waiting on the tree thing, which is waiting on operator overloading (and possibly macros, but I'm not sure of that)
09:10 wayland76 Basically, I have a number of different objects descended from a base object, and I want a different one to be instantiated depending on the parameters passed to the "new" routine
09:10 azawawi i havent tried any of tree grammar stuff yet...
09:10 wayland76 The only way I could think of to implement it was in a similar way to the Perl5 DBI/DBD split
09:11 moritz_ that sounds a lot like the "factory" model
09:11 lambdabot moritz_: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
09:11 wayland76 and I think that might need macros
09:11 moritz_ @massages
09:11 lambdabot azawawi_ said 22h 20m 57s ago: i added the js tree viewer that we talked about yesterday.
09:11 lambdabot wayland76 said 8h 35m 34s ago: Thanks for the article!
09:11 wayland76 I assume you mean the factory pattern, but I'm not much up on patterns :)
09:13 moritz_ neither am I
09:15 wayland76 I've done similar things to this (ie. DBI/DBD split) before, and what I needed was an eval...
09:15 wayland76 which is why I think I might need macros
09:16 wayland76 Oh, moritz_ thanks not only for the recent summary article (which was what I was thanking you for above), but also the XML grammar one; I was about to try to write an XML grammar until I found your article :)
09:17 moritz_ you're welocme ;)
09:18 wayland76 moritz_: I don't suppose you know how to get at the internals of trees that come from grammars in rakudo, do you?
09:18 wayland76 Or even what I'd read to find out?
09:19 moritz_ you mean introspecting grammars? no idea...
09:19 moritz_ and I don't think they are trees, but I think they are a collection of subroutines compiled to PIR
09:20 wayland76 Not quite.  Say you have an XML grammar, and you run it on an XML fragment (say <xml><foo/></xml>), that should generate a tree of the XML document
09:21 wayland76 or wait...
09:21 moritz_ that's iin $/
09:22 wayland76 Ok
09:22 moritz_ http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#Return_values_from_matches
09:23 lambdabot Title: S05
09:25 wayland76 Hmm.  But that appears to be a string that was matched; I was hoping for a tree that was created :)
09:26 wayland76 [I'll be busy for maybe 45 minutes, but I'll be back :)]
09:29 moritz_ wayland76: you can use that thing as a hash or array to access it as a tree
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10:46 wayland76 Wonderful!  $M.keys() shows "xml".  But $M{xml}.keys complains :)
10:46 wayland76 "Could not find non-existent sub xml"
10:58 wayland76 Oops, that doesn't make sense.  I added an XML document stored in $s and the line my $M := $s ~~ XML::TOP; to the end of your XML example
10:58 wayland76 so $M should be the match item, which I'm trying to treat as a hash, but I guess I need to do a bit more reading of the Data Structures stuff :)
11:06 wayland76 Hmm, I think I've overcome that problem
11:06 wayland76 But $M<xml>.kv() gives some strange output :)
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11:19 wayland76 ...ok, no it doesn't.  It just surprised me by concatenating all the keys together :)
11:23 wayland76 Ok, I think I've got the hang of it now.  But it's not exactly my idea of great :)
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11:37 pasteling "masak" at 130.238.45.242 pasted "I'm doing networking in Perl 6, should I follow this advice from perldoc perlop?" (13 lines, 863B) at http://sial.org/pbot/32768
11:40 wayland76 I'd say yes, if possible
11:40 wayland76 Basically, read the spec for whatever protocol you're implementing...
11:41 wayland76 ...and then emit whatever characters it says
11:41 ruoso Hello!
11:41 wayland76 (I know about networking, but not a lot about Perl 6)
11:41 wayland76 ruoso: hi! :)
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11:58 pugs_svn r22692 | ruoso++ | [smop] makes s1p_multi test aware of lexically-defined multi variants
12:02 masak wayland76: I should be more specific, I guess. In Perl 5, one is adviced not to use "\n" for networking because it might mean the wrong thing on certain platforms. does the same advice hold for Perl 6?
12:03 ruoso masak, yes, I presume
12:03 masak ok.
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12:04 masak some rewrites in November required then. :)
12:04 ruoso masak, most runtime stuff should be the same as p5, unless stated otherwise
12:04 masak I know.
12:04 * moritz_ thinks that n should be fine
12:04 masak moritz_: on what do you base that?
12:04 masak I mean, given the advice in perldoc perlop
12:04 moritz_ and that the IO handles know how to convert that to whatever appropriate
12:04 masak g'aah!
12:05 masak but it's the conversion that's the problem.
12:05 moritz_ masak: in Perl 5 a string is a list of bytes. In Perl 6 it's a list characters.
12:05 ruoso moritz_, yes... and that's the reason it's not acceptable
12:05 ruoso ;)
12:05 ruoso in a network protocol you want to know exactly what is being sent
12:05 moritz_ say() and print() need to handle that as well, somehow
12:05 moritz_ or the underlying IO object
12:05 moritz_ (except that no implementation so far cares about stuff like that)
12:06 ruoso moritz_, it basically means that in the end, the string needs to be translated to some buf
12:06 ruoso I think there are additional constraints (besides encoding) that rule this process
12:06 moritz_ aye
12:06 moritz_ (like normalization form)
12:07 ruoso moritz_, so you mean that there would be a "network normalization form" that would make "\n" always mean the same thing independent of the arch or any other constraints?
12:07 ruoso in that specific IO object, I mean
12:08 moritz_ ruoso: that too. I was more referring to the Unicode normalization forms, though
12:09 ruoso moritz_, yaeh... that was the part of "additional constraints"
12:09 ruoso besides encoding
12:09 ruoso I should say "additional traits" probably
12:09 moritz_ ;)
12:12 ruoso I wonder how to make that have a good performance
12:13 moritz_ do perl 5 IO layers have "good performance"?
12:13 * masak still feels he'd better write a literal newline character instead of "n" when doing networking
12:13 masak just to be safe.
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12:14 masak it might also actually be more clear to the programmer what that means.
12:14 masak especially one who has read that paragraph in perldoc perlop
12:17 ruoso @tell pmurias how hard you think it would be to make a signature compiler that creates an AdhocSignature?
12:17 lambdabot Consider it noted.
12:18 ruoso @tell pmurias I'm considering using the syntax "%mildew postcircumfix:<( )> ($self: $capture)" in the RI DSL
12:18 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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12:29 pugs_svn r22693 | ruoso++ | [smop] proposed implementation of $multi.() in Perl 6. Needs modification of the RI DSL
12:32 ruoso @tell pmurias, take a look at smop/src/s1p_multi.ri
12:32 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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12:54 * ruoso wonders if anyone is aware of  http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?distributionformat
12:54 lambdabot Title: DistributionFormat / Perl 6
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13:05 wayland76 My opinion on that is that we shouldn't limit ourselves to just Perl, but also support other Parrot-based languages in C6PAN (since if I understand correctly, we can change languages mid-file anyway :) )
13:10 ruoso wayland76, well... that's one of the goals in the proposed format
13:10 ruoso wayland76, see the "Basic Source Package Layout" section
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14:04 * ruoso just realized that for multis and onlys to be interchangeable, every Code must implement .variants(), even if returning a list of itself
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14:08 pmurias ruoso: why not do the multi purely in mildew?
14:08 lambdabot pmurias: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:08 pmurias @messages
14:08 lambdabot mncharity said 6d 20h 5m 51s ago: re mildew as duplication (last night), I was wrong. eg, elf doesn'
14:08 lambdabot azawawi said 5h 53m 42s ago: i attached the full output along with the summary in http://sial.org/pbot/32762 and http://sial.org/pbot/32763
14:08 lambdabot ruoso said 1h 51m 4s ago: how hard you think it would be to make a signature compiler that creates an AdhocSignature?
14:08 lambdabot ruoso said 1h 50m 24s ago: I'm considering using the syntax "%mildew postcircumfix:<( )> ($self: $capture)" in the RI DSL
14:09 ruoso pmurias, hi
14:09 pmurias ruoso: hi
14:10 ruoso pmurias, well... having it entirely in mildew is not a bad idea at all...
14:10 pmurias &
14:12 ruoso @tell pmurias but I was considering this lowlevel implementation not using p6opaque, because a later high-level implementation should replace it at some point...
14:12 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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14:13 ruoso @tell pmurias because the high-level MultiContainer type will be inside the standard object hierarchy, which means it depends on Object being already there... the low-level types should solve that circularity
14:13 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:16 ruoso but maybe this circularity is not really a problem... considering all lookups are late, maybe we just need to have a multi-stage initialization in src-s1p
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14:17 ruoso 1 - prototype declaration, 2 - adding methods (and I think that's all)
14:18 ruoso the solution probably resides in manipulating the p6opaque directly using the REPR api in src-s1p instead of using the MOP
14:20 ruoso for the declaration I mean, later usage would always go through the MOP
14:21 ruoso if we avoid using the MOP in src-s1p declaration, we can even have a single-stage loading of all types in src-s1p without causing any circularity
14:22 ruoso avoid using the MOP and doing late lookup of all types
14:23 ruoso actually that would mean that we should stop writing anything not in Perl 6
14:23 ruoso (for SMOP, at least)
14:24 ruoso because at the time that any of those types would be used, all methods would already be declared...
14:24 ruoso and all types as well...
14:24 ruoso and that's the type system bootstrap
14:24 ruoso :D
14:25 ruoso after that happens, all declarations go through the MOP
14:27 ruoso that means green light for implementing all built-in types in Perl 6 and just trust that it will work :)
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15:12 lizsac transexual perhaps
15:13 masak lizsac: no, just cross-platform and language-nonspecific :)
15:13 lizsac i thought perl was english
15:14 masak lizsac: well, most of the keywords are in English
15:14 masak but by "language" I meant programming language
15:15 lizsac i thought you was talking about perl
15:15 lizsac i was talking about some chick in #perl
15:15 masak I was.
15:15 lizsac or maybe it was a dude
15:15 lizsac i'm not sure ..
15:15 masak lizsac: it wasn't very clear you was.
15:15 masak anyway, this is #perl6, not #perl
15:16 lizsac i was assuming everyone from #perl was in here
15:16 masak why did you assume that? :)
15:16 lizsac it's the same old perl stuff right?
15:16 lizsac so what's new in 6?
15:16 masak no...
15:16 masak if only every perl user knew about Perl 6, that would be nice.
15:16 masak lizsac: I'm glad you ask. :)
15:16 masak a few things, actually.
15:17 masak http://spec.pugscode.org/
15:17 lizsac will i still be able to use my old perl scripts with perl6's interpreter?
15:17 masak lizsac: you will be able to run your Perl 5 scripts on Parrot, yes
15:17 PerlJam lizsac: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/faq.html
15:17 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 FAQ - perl6
15:17 masak don't know if Rakudo Perl 6 will ever recognize and run Perl 5.
15:19 [particle] it's not a near-term goal for rakudo, anyway
15:20 lizsac i'm kinda glad i don't know perl that well
15:21 lizsac see i'm not really a programmer but i've played around with perl for the past 10 years or so
15:21 lizsac lately i've been getting more into scripting though
15:21 lizsac using perl
15:21 lizsac but thinking maybe i should be using ruby or python
15:22 lizsac well actually i should be using everything
15:22 masak lizsac: all I can say is Perl 6 is really worth checking out
15:22 * lizsac tosses some haskell into the basket
15:22 masak lizsac: try downloading Parrot and running Rakudo
15:23 lizsac well i'm more concerned about being correct and doing things the right way if i can
15:23 lizsac so that way my programmer friends will stop making fun of me
15:23 PerlJam lizsac: If given the choice between ruby and python today, I'd go with ruby.
15:23 PerlJam ruby has a very perlish feel
15:24 lizsac yeah i've heard all the testimonials
15:24 lizsac read all the perl vs ruby vs pythonn flamewar blogs
15:24 lizsac i saw a hardcore perl programmer turn ruby
15:24 lizsac he stood up from his terminal one day
15:24 lizsac all foaming at the mouth
15:25 lizsac wouldn't stop talking about ruby
15:25 lizsac rewrote all his scripts in ruby like overnight
15:25 lizsac this was back in 2001
15:25 lizsac hahah ruby was just coming out or something
15:25 lizsac was really big in japan
15:27 lizsac i don't really see a debian perl6 package ...
15:27 lizsac :)
15:28 PerlJam I seem to recall that there is a debian parrot package and since perl6 comes with parrot for now ...
15:29 [particle] note that perl6 packages are out of date within a day of release
15:29 lizsac i guess i could open up the apt a little bit
15:29 lizsac bleh
15:30 [particle] that is, if you want the newest features
15:30 lizsac maybe i should just mess around in a dir from source
15:30 masak lizsac: language flamewars are only interesting to a certain point. :)
15:30 lizsac instead of bringin in packages in the system
15:30 masak lizsac: if you ask me, you might just as well get Parrot by svn
15:31 [particle] yes, svn is best for parrot/rakudo
15:31 PerlJam [particle]: actually, I think git is  ;)
15:32 lizsac yeah from the examples perl6 looks interesting
15:33 masak lizsac: it is interesting. I use it every day, and I've never been happier.
15:33 lizsac ruby/python like stuff
15:33 lizsac whatever you want to call it
15:33 lizsac structure
15:33 lizsac elegance
15:33 PerlJam perl 6 stuff
15:33 lizsac heheh
15:33 masak programming stuff
15:33 PerlJam lizsac: if you aren't really a programmer, there are tons of features you may not really appreciate.
15:34 lizsac well
15:34 lizsac probably
15:34 lizsac heh advanced to me is hash of hashes
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15:34 lizsac i do a lot of web scraping and dbi stuff
15:34 PerlJam regex syntax/semantic revamp and improved object model are the two biggies IMHO
15:34 lizsac parsing html and xml
15:35 PerlJam so, the regex stuff would definitely be of interest to you
15:35 masak lizsac: Perl 6 parsing is wonderful.
15:35 masak and much of it works in Rakudo today.
15:35 lizsac i try to stay away from using regex but i do use it from time to time when i can't figure anything else out
15:36 lizsac anyways like i sorta said before i'm getting more into the scripting/programming
15:37 lizsac i've spent a consideral amount of time in the last month just tinkering around with perl
15:37 lizsac more so than any other time in the past it seems like
15:38 lizsac i just don't want to end up in the gutter like the rest of those perl programmers
15:41 PerlJam "in the gutter"?
15:41 lizsac one of the things i love about perl is all the modules
15:41 lizsac does perl6 have any modules yet?
15:42 lizsac i don't see any modules ...
15:42 masak lizsac: there are modules.
15:42 masak and classes, and roles...
15:43 lizsac core modules, or cpan stuff?
15:43 lizsac where?
15:43 masak lizsac: also, I too object to being metaphorically placed in the gutter :)
15:43 lizsac doh
15:43 masak I'm a Perl programmer.
15:43 lizsac found em
15:43 lizsac on cpan even
15:43 masak lizsac: you probably found the modules in the Perl6:: namespace
15:44 lizsac well i didn't say all perl programmers were in the gutter
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15:44 masak those are really for Perl 5, for simulating Perl 6 behaviours
15:44 PerlJam lizsac: the Perl6 namespace on CPAN are for Perl 5 modules that implement perl 6 stuff (for perl 5)
15:44 lizsac ohh
15:44 lizsac so
15:44 lizsac wtf
15:44 masak lizsac: I know many Perl programmers, none of which are in gutters.
15:44 PerlJam Though, there really should be an alias from Perl6::OOP  to Moose   :-)
15:45 masak aye :)
15:45 masak lizsac: most of Perl 6 development is off-CPAN right now
15:45 lizsac will i be able to use perl6 for anything?
15:45 masak lizsac: yes.
15:45 lizsac heh
15:45 PerlJam lizsac: That really depends on you more than anything else
15:45 lizsac DBI
15:45 lizsac HTML::TableExtract
15:46 masak lizsac: we're a group who are writing a wiki engine in Perl 6 as we speak.
15:46 lizsac XML::*
15:46 lizsac i use these modules daily
15:46 lizsac i need them to do anything
15:46 lizsac though i could use perl6 to massage some text files i have laying around
15:47 PerlJam lizsac: if you're comfortable with that, you should continue doing it.  Perl 6 won't be in a state for you to do comparable things with comparable ease for a little while yet.
15:47 masak we expect to be able to use Perl 5 modules from Perl 6 eventually. not quite there yet, though.
15:47 masak lizsac: with that said, be on the lookout for Perl 6. it's worth waiting for!
15:47 lizsac well i want to check it out anyways i guess
15:47 PerlJam lizsac: you could have a go at writing a XML module for perl 6  :)
15:47 lizsac you say svn is the best way to get it?
15:48 lizsac i'm currently working on this script to find duplicates in a hash of hashes
15:48 lizsac not complete duplicates but partial
15:49 masak lizsac: yes, I'd say svn is the best way to get it.
15:49 lizsac and not disgarding the dupes but reporting on them
15:49 lizsac kinda complicated for me
15:50 masak lizsac: is there a way to map partial duplicates into the same representation?
15:51 lizsac i'm trying to find it on pastebin
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15:55 lizsac http://pastebin.com/m494f5277
15:55 buubot lizsac: The paste m494f5277 has been copied to http://erxz.com/pb/12884
15:55 lizsac that's how i load the hashes up anyways
15:55 lizsac i managed to do that without looking at anything which is amazing
15:56 lizsac so i load up the hash of hashes and it's all good in the dumper
15:57 lizsac now i just need to figure out how i'm going to roll through it
15:58 lizsac i was thinking of finding the same last_name,first_name,phone elements and if the address matches a little bit then keep the one with apt in it
15:59 lizsac and is that a good way of setting up a hash of hashes?
16:00 masak this is not really the right forum for discussing Perl 5 scripts.
16:00 lizsac ok plz hold i'll install the perl6
16:00 masak even though I must admit that it's tempting in this case...
16:01 lizsac heh
16:01 lizsac tempting?
16:01 masak please refer to #perl on irc.perl.org for Perl 5-specific questions
16:01 masak lizsac: yes, I think I would have had a comment or two
16:01 lizsac irc.perl.org?
16:01 masak yes, that server. they host a big #perl channel
16:01 lizsac is that freenode?
16:02 BinGOs masak: I think you might have that wrong.
16:02 masak no, it's because it's not freenode that I specified it.
16:02 lizsac heh
16:02 masak BinGOs: possibly. have what wrong?
16:02 lizsac gettin me the hell outta here
16:02 lizsac well masak it's not really perl5 specific is it?
16:02 masak yes.
16:02 lizsac i mean the hash would be created the same way in perl6 wouldn't it?
16:02 masak it's a Perl 5 script.
16:03 BinGOs The #perl on irc.perl.org is a den of depravity.
16:03 masak BinGOs: that's true too
16:03 masak BinGOs: but that doesn't mean that there aren't good people there who can give real advice
16:03 BinGOs #perl on freenode is probably the best place and this gentleman is currently banned from there.
16:03 masak oh.
16:03 masak too bad.
16:03 lizsac sssh!
16:03 BinGOs and the #perl on efnet
16:04 lizsac i would never ..
16:04 lizsac the hate is ever present on all the networks!
16:04 masak hate?
16:05 lizsac yeah i guess
16:05 lizsac hating on poor lizsac
16:06 lizsac BinGOs: are you on efnet too?
16:07 lizsac Irssi: Unable to connect server irc.perl.org port 6666 [Connection refused]
16:22 Exodist joined #perl6
16:41 [particle] lizsac: try 6667
16:42 lizsac ohh i did
16:43 lizsac err rather
16:43 lizsac i connected to eldwist.darkuncle.net
16:44 lizsac which was what irc.perl.org resolved to when i pinged it
16:56 lizsac pretty dead in there
16:59 pugs_svn r22694 | lwall++ | [perl6/Makefile] remove leading indentation to save a quarter second on every STD startup
16:59 [particle] yikes, soon you'll be removing semicolons and return statements
16:59 pbuetow joined #perl6
17:00 [particle] yes, changing { return $foo; } to { $foo } can really save you cpu time in perl 5
17:02 lizsac so why not just use python
17:03 [particle] because it's not perl 6
17:04 smg joined #perl6
17:07 lizsac perl 6 is just the bestest?
17:07 lizsac in the whole underverse
17:08 lizsac i was reading how you can shorten the most used operators
17:08 lizsac where you can call a method with .
17:09 lizsac instead of =>
17:09 lizsac err ->
17:09 lizsac i think i saw that in some of the examples
17:10 [particle] yes
17:11 [particle] there's a nice new idiom for creating an object: my SomeClass $x .= new;
17:11 xinming lizsac: perl6 is definitely the best of best programming language on the earth. :-)
17:12 [particle] where .= is 'inplace methodcall' op
17:12 lizsac That aside... I do not have too much faith in Perl6 anyway. It has become too complex, too esoteric... And too vaporware :-(
17:12 lizsac quote from blogcrap
17:12 [particle] uninformed opinion
17:13 PerlJam perl 6 is fairly complex though.
17:13 [particle] p6 is less esoteric than p5, with fewer memorized exceptions
17:13 PerlJam It's controlled complexity
17:13 xinming lizsac: don't listen to that, read the synopsis, You'll know how advance perl 6 is. :-)
17:13 PerlJam or perhaps structured complexity
17:14 [particle] you only need to use the subset of p6 you are comfortable with, it's quite approachable piecemeal
17:16 xinming PerlJam: No matter how complex, some one will make it. What I doubt for now is, perl 6 loses it's focus, and some might switch to other language, and perl 6 will become a theoretical programming language. No other language can defeat it. But no one implement it.
17:16 lizsac i want to install it but don't know where to start
17:16 lizsac i've never used svn before
17:17 xinming lizsac: hmm, Just do 'svn co http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/'
17:17 justatheory joined #perl6
17:17 lizsac i don't have svn
17:17 lizsac trying to figure out which pkg to install to get it
17:17 [particle] sudo apt-get install subversion
17:17 xinming lizsac: But you have to do compilation your self for pugs
17:17 lizsac ahh subversion
17:18 xinming lizsac: what distribution you use?
17:18 lizsac debian
17:18 xinming then, It's easy to install
17:18 pedrob joined #perl6
17:18 PerlJam xinming: Yes, not having an implmentation that's ready for public consumption is a bit of a problem.
17:21 lizsac wtf is pugs
17:22 xinming lizsac: Ok, clarification begins, Perl 6 is a "book", Pugs is a example in real.
17:22 xinming lizsac: perl 6 is just specification, and pugs is a current one of the implementations for perl 6.
17:22 PerlJam lizsac: pugs is an implementation of Perl 6 written in Haskell.
17:22 lizsac svn: REPORT of '/pugs/!svn/vcc/default': Could not read chunk size: connection was closed by server (http://svn.pugscode.org)
17:23 lambdabot Title: pugs - Revision 22694: /
17:23 lizsac is that normal?
17:23 xinming lizsac: try again?
17:23 PerlJam lizsac: There are 3 (or more) other implementations of Perl 6
17:23 lizsac implementations of perl 6 ...
17:24 xinming lizsac: Did you ever read synopsis?
17:24 lizsac which one
17:24 PerlJam lizsac: have you every heard of IronPython, Jython, CPython, etc?  Those are all implementations of the programming language called "python"
17:25 xinming http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html <-- If you are free, you really should read them as much as you can.
17:25 lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
17:25 lizsac i've been wanting to get into haskell
17:26 lizsac yeah i didn't know the whole thing was a synopses
17:27 lizsac i was reading individual synopses
17:27 lizsac err synopsis
17:27 xinming lizsac: synopsis covered most of basic thing for perl 6.
17:28 lizsac ok my pugs is done
17:29 xinming lizsac: And It's really an excited reading when looking at what perl 6 will be like. :-)
17:29 xinming lizsac: hmm, do you have ghc installed?
17:29 armagad joined #perl6
17:29 lizsac haskell compiler?
17:29 xinming hmm, yes, do 'sudo apt-get install ghc6'
17:30 [particle] lizsac: also, if you're interested in parrot and rakudo, see http://www.parrotcode.org/docs/gettingstarted.html
17:30 lambdabot Title: Parrot Developer FAQ - parrotcode
17:30 xinming sorry, I am now in fedora, some thing might not be so accruate.
17:31 xinming But read the INSTALL in pugs repository helps
17:31 lizsac so parrot isn't pugs i take it
17:31 lizsac heh
17:33 [particle] pugs is a perl 6 implementation written in haskell
17:33 [particle] parrot is a virtual machine written in c, and rakudo is a perl 6 implementation written for parrot
17:34 lizsac i can build an embedded parrot interpretor in pugs
17:34 lizsac or some shit
17:34 [particle] no, that's bitrotten i'm afraid
17:36 Lunchy joined #perl6
17:37 lizsac lucky i'm in lenny i guess
17:37 lizsac what it's really not telling me is how i specify where to install it
17:39 lizsac doh it's normal i was getting all caught up in the cabal crap
17:40 lizsac XXX NOTE!!!!!!!!
17:40 lizsac PREFIX doesn't actually work right now. So ignore what I just said. But if
17:40 lizsac it did work, that's how you would do it.
17:46 pmurias joined #perl6
17:46 lizsac this is an amazing pile of crapola
17:46 lizsac you guys are hardcore
17:47 PerlJam lizsac: you must be referring to pugs.
17:47 lizsac yes
17:47 PerlJam many of us no longer use pugs in favor of rakudo
17:47 lizsac bah!
17:47 PerlJam (or some other implementation of choice)
17:47 lizsac but he just
17:47 lizsac you
17:48 ruoso hi pmurias, you're back  :D
17:48 lizsac bastard
17:48 lizsac i take it xinming is chinese
17:48 ruoso lizsac, but pugs is still a very interesting playground for those discovering Perl 6
17:49 ruoso lizsac, it's still the most feature-full implementation  (I think)
17:49 lizsac well only thing i can think is good about it that i might play with haskell too
17:50 PerlJam ruoso: I don't think so anymore.
17:50 lizsac heh
17:50 lizsac why not?
17:50 PerlJam the down side of pugs too is that it has some features that aren't part of perl 6
17:50 lizsac i ask in the middle of my pugs build
17:50 pmurias ruoso: yes i'm back
17:50 lambdabot pmurias: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:50 pmurias @messages
17:50 lambdabot ruoso said 3h 38m 32s ago: but I was considering this lowlevel implementation not using p6opaque, because a later high-level implementation should replace it at some point...
17:50 lambdabot ruoso said 3h 37m 32s ago: because the high-level MultiContainer type will be inside the standard object hierarchy, which means it depends on Object being already there... the low-level types should
17:50 lambdabot solve that circularity
17:50 PerlJam lizsac: rakudo does almost everything
17:52 lizsac maybe i will install that too
17:52 lizsac with the ruby rails and python
17:52 lizsac and whatever else i can fit on my hard drive
17:52 ruoso pmurias, please also backlog... I went through some important insights after I sent you this messages
17:52 pmurias ruoso: P6Meta could be tought how to assimilate PurePrototypeHow objects
17:53 ruoso pmurias, in the end I realized that the "s1p" compiler should use the REPR API directly to solve the circularity
17:53 ruoso pmurias, so we can "declare" all builtin types that way
17:53 ruoso and it will just work
17:54 ruoso because of late lookup
17:55 pmurias ruoso: we could teach P6Meta how to "assimilate" PurePrototypeHOW classes
17:55 pmurias i think we shouldn't have multiple p6 compilers
17:55 ruoso pmurias, but that's the 1st stage compiler
17:55 ruoso that one we're going to need anyway
17:55 ruoso to bootstrap the type system
17:56 pmurias why does it need to be different?
17:57 ruoso because it needs to get the types into the way they should look like
17:57 ruoso even if doing it in a non-standard wayt
17:57 pmurias it should do it in the standard way
17:57 ruoso it doesn't need to
17:58 ruoso it's a special compiler anyway
17:58 ruoso it will build C files that comply to a "prelude plugin API" of some sort
17:59 pmurias i still don't understand why does it need to be special in any way
17:59 ruoso because this are the built-in types... you're compiling the types that are presumed in every other compilation
18:00 pmurias builtin-in types != native types
18:00 ruoso sure... but a Hash is not a native type, for instance
18:00 ruoso nor is an Array
18:00 ruoso or even a Str
18:00 ruoso or an Int
18:01 pmurias i'm against the idea of having "special" anything when it's not needed
18:01 avar Perl 6 is a dialect of scheme :)
18:01 ruoso ok, let me approach it other way...
18:01 avar Who's working on the elf CL stuff again?
18:01 ruoso pmurias, please explain what you have in mind...
18:01 pmurias avar: mncharity
18:02 pmurias ruoso: what i mean that the stuff in the Prelude isn't better in anyway if the user what's to use his own custom Array he should be able to
18:03 ruoso pmurias, you mean overwriting the Prelude...
18:03 pmurias or extending it
18:03 ruoso pmurias, that's not a problem, specially after the built-in type was defined
18:04 ruoso the issue here is not about making the types special
18:04 ruoso but it's the exact opposite
18:04 ruoso how to make then regular
18:04 ruoso s/then/them\
18:04 ruoso the idea of a different compiler to bring the built-in types up
18:04 ruoso is so that in the end of the initialization, you can't tell that they were initialized by a different process
18:05 ruoso because they will look exactly the same
18:05 pmurias ruoso: do you have an example which needs a different compiler
18:06 pmurias ?
18:06 [particle] joined #perl6
18:07 ruoso pmurias, using the MOP to build the built-in types will require features from the built-in types...
18:07 ruoso pmurias, using the REPR API directly avoids that
18:07 ruoso and when you finally needs to use the MOP, the entire prelude will already be loaded
18:08 ruoso and the type system bootstrapped
18:08 ruoso so the features from the prelude will be there
18:08 pmurias ruoso: we have PurePrototypeHOW don't we?
18:08 [particle] ...MOP on aisle two...
18:08 ruoso pmurias, the only class that will use that is P6Meta
18:09 pmurias Hash and Array could use that
18:10 ruoso pmurias, no, they can't... because Hash isa Object
18:10 ruoso and Object uses P6Meta
18:10 pmurias and we can then teach P6Meta to "assimilate" PurePrototypHOW classes
18:10 ruoso what do you mean by assimilate>
18:10 pmurias change the classe's HOW to itself
18:11 pmurias s/itself/instance of itself/
18:11 ruoso the problem is that PurePrototypeHOW will require Hash to have *all* methods in itself
18:11 ruoso instead of inheriting them from Object
18:11 pmurias PurePrototypeHOW uses S1P::Hash
18:11 ruoso it's not just a matter of changing the HOW
18:12 ruoso pmurias, not really... PurePrototypeHOW uses $foo.^!methods
18:12 ruoso which, in the case of p6opaque, is a S1P::Hash
18:12 ruoso but it doesn't need to be
18:12 pmurias during bootstrap it is ;)
18:13 ruoso I think I lost the point
18:13 ruoso s/the/your/
18:13 ruoso what do you mean...
18:14 ruoso rephrasing.... how does the fact that PurePrototypeHow uses S1P::Hash changes the fact that it would require installing new, CREATE, BUILDALL into Hash also
18:14 ruoso instead of just inheriting from Object
18:14 pmurias what i mean after P6Meta is loaded (using PurePrototypeHOW where nessesary) we would replace all classes using PurePrototypeHOW with ones which use P6Meta
18:15 pmurias s/using/which use/
18:15 ruoso pmurias, if you try to get lower-level with that approach you'll see that you have a circularity problem
18:15 ruoso (by lower-level I mean actual code)
18:16 pmurias metamodels are supposed to be circular
18:16 ruoso in theory, yes
18:16 pmurias P6Meta's .HOW is supposed to be a P6Meta instance
18:16 * justatheory coughs
18:16 ruoso but in practice, it needs to break the circularity somehow
18:17 armagad left #perl6
18:17 ruoso that's where 1st stage compilers comes in
18:17 pmurias you can do it by handcoding the HOW
18:17 ruoso pmurias, the problem is that the HOW itself depends on the other types that aren't already there
18:18 pmurias first you create P6Meta metainstance then you define a .HOW method on it which returns it
18:19 ruoso hm?
18:19 ruoso I don't think I see what you mean...
18:19 ruoso P6Meta is a regular class, that happens to use a different HOW
18:19 pmurias the kp6 MOP was circular
18:20 ruoso pmurias, and the circularity was broken by defining objects directly in p5
18:20 ruoso building the same data structure the rest of the runtime would expect
18:20 pmurias yes...
18:20 ruoso that's what I plan to do
18:21 pmurias but we don't need a special compiler for that
18:21 ruoso having the s1p compiler building the data structure as the rest of the runtime will expect them to be
18:21 pmurias all the deep magic can be expressed in normal p6
18:21 ruoso how do you call add_method in a class that needs to call add_method to be defined?
18:22 * pmurias writes code to to that...
18:23 ruoso pmurias, you mean you're doing it now?
18:24 ruoso on the other hand, if the s1p compiler uses "my $class = ::p6opaque.CREATE(); $class.^!methods.<new> = method (...) {...}"
18:24 ruoso the methods will be there without the need to call add_method, and you will be able to call add_method to create new classes
18:25 pmurias why can we write the above code by hand
18:25 pmurias ?
18:25 ruoso you mean "why a compiler if we can write the above code by hand"?
18:26 pmurias yes
18:26 meppl joined #perl6
18:26 ruoso well... just to keep the files in src-s1p written in plain Perl 6
18:26 ruoso I agree it's a perfectionism of mien
18:26 ruoso but we have to agree it would be pretty
18:26 ruoso :P
18:27 pmurias on the syntactic level yes ;)
18:27 ruoso I think you see what I mean now :)
18:29 ruoso pmurias, the insight I had was that if we compile all the built-in types in terms of REPR manipulation, it will break the circularity and we're bootstrapped
18:29 ruoso (the type system, at least, which is an important step before compiler bootstrap)
18:31 pmurias but having a seperate compiler mode is a bit complex
18:31 ruoso maybe a Perl 6 preprocessor then ;)
18:31 ruoso that turn plain Perl 6 into s1p Perl 6
18:31 pmurias what we could do is create a part of P6Meta load Hash,Array and then load the rest of P6Meta
18:32 pmurias i'm not sure obscuring the complexity of what's happening is a good thing
18:32 ruoso it's not obscuring, just automating
18:33 ruoso because the "my $class = ::p6opaque.CREATE()" part will be very repetitive...
18:33 ruoso as well as every method definition and so on
18:33 pmurias after you hand bootstrap add_method and a couple of things you can write normalish p6
18:33 * ruoso sees a lot of circular-dependencies ahead...
18:34 pmurias ::MyClass = ::p6opaque.CREATE() vs class MyClass?
18:34 pmurias it's not more boilerplate then a C++ coder uses casually ;)
18:35 pmurias if it turn out too horrible i'll change my mind and add support to mildew for it ;)
18:36 ruoso heh...
18:36 pmurias * turns
18:36 * ruoso wonders if that's the reason people hates C++ so hard
18:36 ruoso pmurias, ohkay
18:37 ruoso pmurias, but I still think doing the "compiler mode" would be less work
18:37 [particle] s/hard/much/
18:38 pmurias so the plan is not to use PurePrototypeHOW?
18:38 ruoso pmurias, PurePrototypeHOW is only the HOW for P6Meta
18:38 ruoso so that p6meta can be a p6opaque
18:39 ruoso otherwise it would need to be a low-level type
18:39 zamolxes joined #perl6
18:40 pmurias how does that relate to Hash?
18:40 pmurias won't it be a p6opaque
18:40 ruoso pmurias, yes, but it will also be a subclass of Object
18:41 ruoso which means it's sane to use the same HOW as Object
18:41 * ruoso remembers that we have a prototype based implementation in SMOP so far
18:41 ruoso (prototype by delegation, not pure-prototype)
18:42 pmurias the S1P::Hash should die
18:42 ruoso not so fast... p6opaque uses it
18:42 ruoso but S1P::Hash will be hidden in the gore lowlevel details
18:43 ruoso it won't be visible to the regular user
18:43 pmurias ok it can live a relatively obscure existence as p6opaque's minion
18:43 ruoso and lexical scope's minion too
18:44 ruoso but I think that's pretty much everyone that uses it
18:46 pmurias we need signatures in smop before we can proceed to implementing P6Meta
18:46 ruoso we can live with AdhocSignature, can't we?
18:46 pmurias barely
18:46 ruoso for P6Meta, at least
18:46 ruoso or at least until we bootstrap the type system and go replacing backwards
18:47 ruoso unless of course we design Signature
18:47 ruoso and build the object from scratch without using its methods
18:47 ruoso that's indeed an "bootstrap-like option"
18:49 pmurias theoreticly we could build :(*@_,*%_) using the default block signature
18:49 pmurias and PurePrototypeHOW
18:51 pmurias AdhocSignature is not very usable from p6 because it accepts mold blocks
18:53 ruoso pmurias, I was thinking on having ":($foo, $bar)" compiled directly to AdhocSignature
18:53 ruoso AdhocSignature would not be seen in P6 code
18:55 pmurias we could use it for now
18:57 pmurias ruoso: have you looked at mildew code yet?
18:58 ruoso yeah... somewhat...
18:58 ruoso it looks like the codes that would benefit from a tree-grammar thing
18:59 pmurias it definitly would benefit from some treeish syntax sugar
19:00 pmurias it won't have any use from node matching as it should go through the whole thing
19:04 ZuLuuuuuu joined #perl6
19:05 pmurias ruoso: it would receive a generic 2x cleanup if translated to perl6 too
19:07 pmurias ruoso: anything unclear? or any suggestion for cleanup withought using custom syntax?
19:07 ruoso no... it's very straight-forward...
19:08 ruoso I think we already have some expertise in building tree-transformers in p5... :)
19:09 ruoso I think the first I recall started in 2004 or something like that
19:10 ruoso (Perl 6 related tree-transformers implemented in Perl 5, I mean)
19:19 pedrob joined #perl6
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19:40 ruoso pmurias, btw... you noticed the memory issues I pointed? it's related to proto.ri
19:41 pmurias yes
19:41 pmurias checking once more
19:42 pmurias ruoso: should make test use valgrind by default?
19:42 ruoso pmurias, that would be ok
19:42 pmurias it would take twice as long
19:43 ruoso it's fairly quick now
19:44 pmurias anyway the mildew and perl6 eventually will take over soon
19:44 pmurias * test suits
19:45 ruoso that even makes me wonder if we should make a boundary in "libsmop" to where it is now
19:46 ruoso and have src-s1p as if it were a different project
19:46 pmurias libsmop needs a lot of cleanup
19:47 ruoso indeed
19:47 ruoso removing slime is an important step
19:48 araujo joined #perl6
19:54 ruoso pmurias, in fact... I just realized smop core grew over what was needed... it was important to make a proof of concept, but even some of the s1p_* types doesn't really need to be there..
19:54 pmurias perl6: (1,2,3) >>+<< (1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
19:55 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[/home/evalenv/pugs/pugs: error while loading shared libraries: libsmop.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory␤]
19:55 p6eval ..rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ">>+<< (1,2"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤]
19:55 p6eval ..elf 22694: OUTPUT[Out of memory!␤]
19:55 pmurias i killed pugs :(
19:55 ruoso heh
19:57 pmurias is there a way to tell the hyper op to return a list which is the length of the shorter one?
19:59 pugs_svn r22695 | pmurias++ | [mildew] spits m0ld when --exec is not present
20:04 pmurias ruoso: do you think giving mildew a pugs-like interface would make sense?
20:07 pmurias ruoso: the Invalid read seems to be SLIME releated
20:07 pedrob_ joined #perl6
20:08 pmurias as a dead SLIME Frame is accessed at native_capture
20:11 ruoso pmurias, ok... we could kill SLIME... the only thing we need is something like the SLIME free operator
20:11 ruoso pmurias, there are only two files that still use slime
20:11 ruoso (besides a lot of tests)
20:12 ruoso pmurias, but the invalid read is just a symptom of the problem
20:13 ruoso pmurias, someone is doing an improper refcnt_dec
20:13 ruoso that is causing premature destruction, where the frame is still referenced....
20:14 ruoso pmurias, the free operator could just be something that turns a register into NULL without doing a release
20:14 pmurias could we catch using an undead object?
20:14 kst joined #perl6
20:14 ruoso pmurias, that's what valgrind does
20:15 ruoso you'll catch the exact same poitn
20:15 pmurias yes
20:16 ruoso the question is who is killing the object at the wrong time?
20:16 ruoso not who is accessing the undead object
20:18 pmurias shower&
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22:56 lizsac /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lperl
22:56 lizsac collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
22:56 lizsac make: *** [pugs] Error 1
22:56 lizsac man right at the end too
22:58 lizsac i dunno what that cannot find -lperl means
22:58 lizsac i have all the perl stuffs
23:07 aindilis joined #perl6
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23:51 wayland76 lizsac: It's looking for a library called "libperl"
23:51 wayland76 If "locate libperl" returns no results, then you need something else
23:52 wayland76 (incidentally, I agree with pmurias_ when he said :(*@_,*%_)
23:52 wayland76 :)
23:59 wayland76 rakudo: for 1..3 { if $_ == 2 { next; }; say $_; }
23:59 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[1␤3␤]
23:59 wayland76 Oh good :)
23:59 wayland76 On mine, it says Could not find non-existent sub next
23:59 wayland76 So I'll eagerly await the parrot release later today :)

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